How Do You Define A Woman? Not Like This!
The define a woman bill was supposed to be NZ Firstβs great culture-war mic drop. Instead, the actual wording reads like legal circular logic: βwoman means an adult human biological femaleβ while βfemale means a human biological femaleβ. After years of demanding definitions, this is surprisingly thin legislative drafting.
So, this is it. The fabled “Woman-Defining” ability of the Right.
Whatever one thinks of the principle involved, it is difficult to avoid an impression that the drafter’s scope of competence was basically just ‘symbolic grandstanding’.
So how exactly does this define a woman?
This is a circular definition – and there is no actual (so far as I know) provisions for what “biological female” is to be defined as, in this legislation, the legislation it seeks to amend, etc. … which, I suppose, means it’s going to come down to leaving it up to the judiciary if this ever winds up actually in court.
Because βbiological femaleβ is effectively being defined by reference to itself.
While in the United Kingdom, a recent court decision of some salience had indeed made a call which the drafter would agree with (there, they went with “biological sex” if memory serves) … considering how much the party pushing this legislation has complained about an “Activist Judiciary” here that is apparently inimical to their values and ‘common sense’, I am rather surprised they would seemingly be keen to have said institution also responsible for arbitrating what definitional test “biologically female” actually would be determined by.
An ‘activist lawyer’ who was pro-trans would be able to drive a proverbial truck through such a non-descript “definition” (and you can already see some hypotheticals proffered of exactly this nature over on certain sides of X/Twitter – basically everything short of a ‘double-x chromosome’. Technically, even Stuart Nash’s unrepeatably crude ‘efforts’ upon this front, as broadcast upon national radio a few months back, would be a standard that, whilst looking like ‘biological female’, with various medical procedures somebody born male would nevertheless be able to meet the standard of for legal purposes.)
There are other problems with this legislative proposal, as well – and, again, the cheap seats of social media turn out to have more legal drafting nous than the proposer when it comes to pointing various of them out. I was particularly fond of the one from one X/Twitter user (@Mugasofa), who pondered:
“Hmm, so if a law refers to a “female cow”, that means “human biological female cow””
Three years of slogans, and this is the bill?
After three years of jeering at Chris Hipkins about “defining a woman” … one would have expected better for the loudest of his decriers upon that score than to proffer their own “We Define A Woman … As A Woman!” effort asΒ actual legislation.
Itβs always interesting to watch social contagions wax and wane.
I wonder what the next one will be?
Yep, I’m amazed at the level of TERF brain rot spread by Facebook and Twitter too.
“Inconceivable!”
I can barely believe that people take the shane jones goof seriously. Just stop it would you.
Q: What is the definition of a woman?
A: Everyone not entitled to pay equity.
This is the only answer opposition MPs need to give, when Winston Peters or any other right wing politician or right wing journalist puts their favourite ‘gotcha’ question to them.*
Cost of living, foreign wars, that not only increase the cost of living but are a moral outrage.
New Zealand First are not concerned about the issues of the day that concern New Zealanders.
New Zealand First are morally bankrupt.
At the same time the government is pouring $billions extra into the military, they are starving our public health system of funding.
New Zealand is set to spend millions next month sending the NZDF to a US-led military exercise which will see the NZDF train beside the Israel Defence Force. Where is the debate about this?
* A gotcha question is a manipulative rhetorical tactic designed to trap, embarrass, or confuse the person being questioned. Instead of seeking genuine information, the question is framed so that no matter how the respondent answers, their words can be twisted or used to damage their credibility.
Gotcha questions include a loaded premise disguised as a simple inquiry.
Gotcha questions shift the focus away from substantive policies, arguments, or the actual subject at hand.
The answer to the gotcha question: ‘What is a woman?’ is, ‘Everyone who is not entitled to pay equity’, puts the right wing asker of their gotcha question on the back foot and re-directs the debate back to the real policy issues of the day, pay equity, cost of living and social inequity generally.
It will be good if teachers can teach factual biology once more without career ending hate campaigns against them.
I agree, they should be taught factual science.
Things like:
“Pregnancy in true hermaphrodites and all male offspring to date”
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19155947/
I’ll await your reply employing your primary school level of scientific knowledge.
Just wondering if you have read that paper? It seems to be often misunderstood.
And what is your understanding of it?
None of the 11 cases were self-fertilisation. They were cases instead of ovotesticular disorder of sex development.
But… national, act and nz first are the same thing. They’re all dangerous and put agriculturally, are fucking awful. National, ACT, and NZ First are all just fucking awful. They’re a gaggle of hideous people but worse, they’re politicians we pay to fuck us all without the kissing.
Neoliberalism’s never gone away which means every single political party is neoliberal. Know the enemy. If you don’t know what neoliberalism is then read this.
Sure. UK centric yet same-same.
The Invisible Doctrine
The Secret History of Neoliberalism (& How It Came To Control Your Life)
Peter Hutchison George Monbiot
https://www.penguin.co.nz/books/the-invisible-doctrine-9781802062694
Wait till AI motivated humanoid bots get a foot in the proverbial door.
Shouldn’t they be focusing on people having jobs,food, access to health treatment a GP somewhere decent to live rather than this. This lot need to get their priorities sorted.
Shouldn’t the previous government have been focused on those things you list, instead of pushing through the ridiculous ban on so-called “conversion practices”, which effectively criminalized any parent or doctor who might be reluctant to “affirm” a child’s gender dysphoria?
This Pope is comfortable with the rape of Palestinian detainees.
So any claim to act in the interests of women is patently false.
Maybe go look in the mirror before you go and notify your neighbours of your horrific views.
Because you should be on a register you piece of shit.
So here’s the liberal faction of the Nats (and David Seymour) trying ease their guilty consciences about supporting the indefensible inclusion of gender identity in the legislation banning “conversion practices” in 2022.
Fuck off transphobe.
You don’t give a fuck about the rape and sexual assault of Palestinian detainees.
That means you hold zero moral authority on absolutely everything.
In fact, you should be notifying your neighborhood about your vile views.
Because it’s a short trip from being agnostic about rape to being a rapi.
Men are men, women are women. One cannot change sex, or gender (gender really is just a polite word for sex).
One of course can, & many do express their internal gender identity, in an external manner.
Anyway I think you might have anger management issues.
I only get annoyed with stupid people like you, who support unscientific bullshit.
And gender is not a polite word for sex.
You’ve stumbled at the first hurdle chief.
Actually I am correct. I do understand that you “get annoyed with stupid people…” , so do I, especially those like yourself who latch on to the latest ideological social contagion and consider themselves to be somewhat intellectually and morally superior to others.
I donβt think this is the burn you believe it is.
The more Labour has to argue why this Bill is wrong and also why men should play in womenβs sports and be housed in female prisons, the more non-progressive voters will remember the trans activists and hate the Left.
I’ve tried to walk people through different meanings of different words and words have different meanings to different people my conclusion is most of these words are not the issue.
What would activists like parliament to do about conduct on social media. We can’t have anonymous accounts running controlling people’s speech.
When looking at evidence parliament doesn’t look at reason not to believe they look at reasons to believe. Interpreted correctly there is no reason to believe that a biological female cow is a part of the human species. Only that anonymous accounts online prefer cows to be a part of the debate. Not to clarify but to confuse the meaning of what a woman is.
There is no reason to believe that these anonymous online accounts are women rather by their own words they are cows.
The minimum standards have to be a record. If you are born a male you are male. Some men can act like women but they cannot adopt the nature of a woman. And if a man wishes to improve his mental health by being called a woman then all official documents should make that change crystal clear rather than relying on anonymous activists to clarify.
Cool exercise of your 5th form biology there dude.
Any comment on the intersex people who can and do get pregnant?
They can even impregnate themselves.
Bet you never knew that, because your bigotry has removed your capacity for learning.
An intersex βpersonβ who got pregnant, would in fact, be a womanβ¦..
But they’re not Terry.
Neither the scientific community or those people refer to themselves as women.
Try again.
Cinder, only woman can get pregnant… Should a person who is intersex become pregnant, that intersex person must therefore be a woman. However they may well prefer to call themselves something else, that’s their choice. Just do not expect, or demand that I, or any one else must believe I suc childish fairy tails.
5th Form Biology back in the day taught that humans cannot change their sex (however many sexes there may be). Is that still correct?
In 5th form, they didn’t want to confuse the stupid children like yourself.
So they kept it simple on purpose.
If you studied 7rh form biology or above, you’d know that genetic expression is fucking wild and random.
That’s because it really is simple. Sex is immutable in humans.
Fuck off Ada.
You’re a moral black hole who deserves internment until you’ve learned to act like an adult human.
Have you ever wondered why ordinary, normal human beings despise far left activists? Look in the mirror.
You should go back and read some of your old posts and to see the warmth, the humanity, the tolerance of alternative views (yes Iβm being sarcastic) because then youβd see why no one will ever, ever vote for a party you are part of.
Oh no! Rude words.
Here’s the thing fuckwit. You support the most vile actions of this government without a second thought.
A government defined by its bullying.
Which you support.
So if you don’t like me “bullying” you by pointing out you’re a fucking idiot, who unquestioning parrots talking points without pause for thought, then go fuck yourself.
I have zero interest in trying to sway unthinking morons like you. But there are many people who do read this blog and there’s no way I’m NOT countering the bullshit of absolute mouth breathers like you, Bob & Trevor.
It’s interesting that none of you knuckle dragging shit touchers ever try to discount my counter points… Telling even.
My main interest in YOU is pointing at you and laughing, because you’re making a public spectacle of yourself. No one is keeping you here for this intellectual horse whipping, you’re free to leave. But remember, the Internet has a permanent record of you pulling your pants down in the public square while smearing dung on your face.
By the way, can you please point to anything, absolutely anything which would indicate I’m “Far Left”?
I think it’s that age old problem of facts and evidence having a leftist bias.
Cinder, maybe you should go on holiday until you can comment on this topic without abusing those people who dare to have an opinion which differs from yours. In other words, maybe youβre the one who needs to act like a grown adult
Or maybe Terry, you could go fuck yourself.
The “adults” in this thread are dumb as fuck and can’t even understand simple definitions.
People like you.
Perhaps, just like the whiny fuckwits above, you’d rather I went away because you can’t handle the intellectual horse whipping you’re taking.
If you’re offended by rude words, grow up.
I’ve just picked myself up after rolling around on the floor laughing; on one hand you’re telling people to “go fuck themselves”, and on the other suggesting that they “can’t handle the intellectual house whipping…”.
Dare I ask what “intellectual horse whipping” have you subjected myself or others on this issue?
Your personal insults reveal more about yourself, and really do show just how shallow and juvenile this whole gender ideology debate coming from the likes of you really is.
Seizing on a semantic quirk about livestock completely misses the point of how legislation works. No major public policy revision arrives at Parliament perfectly formed; that is precisely why we have select committees, public submissions, and the amendment process.
To dismiss an entire bill over drafting issues that can be fixed with simple edits is the definition of bad-faith. The intent of the bill to provide a clear objective baseline for sex-based terminology in law remains.
Instead of hiding behind cheap gotchas about female professors of what a woman isn’t should focus on the actual substance of the policy, knowing full well that any minor phrasing errors will be ironed out long before the final vote.
Sam the whole bill is the definition of bad faith because it is pure theatrical distraction
Sam’s going to lose his shit when he discovers that this legislation sets the age of 20 for womanhood.
Which means roughly a thousand people who get pregnant in this country every year will not be defined as women.
You really couldn’t make this up! By seeking an unscientific outcome, they’ve proven they have no idea what they’re talking about.
Awesome work there NZ Fuckfaces First and TERFs, do you ever tire of making absolute fools of yourself?
Cinder, maybe because of their age, they are considered girls, not womenβ¦.