Kiri Allan’s hate speech laws will be the political kiss of death to Labour

1. The Jacinda Ardern Labour Government wants to completely control our lives.
   They wish to deny us freedom of thought.
   They arrogantly are telling us they know better and we should obey.
   The actions of this Government are deplorable.
   We cannot allow this to happen.

   • Wow Bob, not one for exaggeration, are you?

     Not even ACT are arguing that this is about thought control or freedom of thought. They are arguing that the idea of more civil discourse is a noble one but that it will have unintended consequences.

     Is section 61 of the Human Rights Act about thought control Bob? That already states it’s against the law to use, publish, broadcast or distribute written matter or use words that are both:
     1) Threatening, abusive or insulting, and
     2) Likely to incite hostility or bring into contempt any group on the basis of their colour, race, or ethnic or national origins.

     Clearly you would have to think about the material, insults, whatever, to publish it. I don’t think National were about though control when they passed this act in 1993, but you may see that differently

     Personally, I think they should leave this alone, but I don’t think someone is trying to control my mind when they try to come up with solutions to the fact that there are complete arseholes out there that incite other complete arseholes.

     • it always amuses me when rightards who tend to go full r..t….rd if anyone steps 0.5mm out of line, whittler on about freedom of thought…it really does.
       they have the most rigid and straightjacketed mindset this side of alpha centuri

     • Take your point wheel.

       • I write this with some caution because I agree with @ Bob on a certain level.
         And that level is; that Labour is still unapologetically neoliberal.
         Labour has never came out and denounced roger douglas’s treachery. Roger The Rat was Labour’s finance minister for two terms remember, and during that time, he destroyed all that original Labour was about, and that was people first, billionaires later. Much, much later. If ever. It was also roger rat who created the pathetic abomination that is ACT remember, and the fact that ACT is proving popular with 15% of the voter is despairing to say the least.
         It’s not unfair to criticise todays labour because they fucking deserve to be criticised. Labour needs to stop patronising those many of us who’d otherwise choose to vote Labour’s humanist values and customs.
         Labour? Come clean. Be honest. By sincere. Because if you don’t you’re terminally fucked, and so will we be. But of course you can’t can you. Not now, not unless you want to unleash a royal commission of inquiry on a scale not seen since the wine box inquiery. Remember that one? Winnie and Citi Bank etc. Cook Islands? Panama Papers etc. There’s the little matter of generations worth of stolen primary industry money you, and others, must keep the lid on. Aye Boys? Can’t have the beautiful, bright sunshine of truth shine up your back passage now, can we?
         Peter Sellers:
         “I’d been told a hundred times about Aunt Daisy opening her morning programme with: “Good morning, everyone! Good morning! It’s a lovely day in Wellington and I woke to find the sun shining up my back passage.”
         This will make you laugh. I’d like to see Chloe Swarbrick jump the HSBC Bank The Green Party and push Jacinda Adern aside to take up the reigns of Labour. We don’t need money, finance, schmoozing, smiling, wooing. We need governance and that means we need our money coming back into the House and we need to be protected from the Big Bad World of the many sneaky, boring, beige, little crooks out there.
         For example. Auckland? How’d it get there again? Could the Big Shiny Bankster Buildings towering of the super yachts in the harbour be a clue?

     • Section 61 only applies to Racial disharmony (“colour, race, or ethnic or national origins”. Bob didn’t refer to race at all so your straw man fails.

       People can still be justifiably hated, often for excellent reasons. As you rightly say, “…there are complete arseholes out there that incite other complete arseholes”. They come in all colours & a few are increasingly evident in NZ politics, including in Labour, Maori Party & Greens.

   • Actually Bob, I tend to disagree. I can’t say whether the hate speech reforms are designed to control our thinking but I think it’s worth remembering what happened last year.

     The draft legislation went a lot further than the Human Rights Act quoted above by including a provision that basically boiled down to causing offence. And potentially worse than that, it did not exempt political speech. Hence why neither Faafoi or Ardern could define it. It was a massive overreach and one I think they thought would go through without anyone looking too closely at it.

     Wheel’s point that the HR Act covers these things is also appropriate.

     It isnt so much about the law itself but it is about the enforcement of the law. What happenned last year was chilling.

     The police chose to act on this new law before it had even made it through parliament by taking a 30 yr veteran K Rd preacher down to the copshop because he was preaching the wages of sin is death to working girls and trans activists. He was told that he could be liable to up to 2 yrs in prison if the new law came in and that he was preaching hate speech.

     Regardless of your views on what he was saying. He was being told that his Christian views were not allowed in public and he could ultimately go to prison for them. If that doesnt strike at the heart of what people are allowed to believe I dont know what does. I’m pretty sure we have laws in NZ about religious freedom of expression in any event.

     So the danger here is that the law is broad enough to capture anyone you want and will be selectively applied to target those the Govt doesnt agree with. You could go into a mosque in NZ and hear anti homosexuality views that would make the Christian ones look tame but we all know that under the current Labour Govt, Muslims will not be prosecuted under hate speech laws.

     And this is only one example. The Trans lobby are so evil online and in Universities that it’s hard to believe that no-one does anything to stop them. If this law goes through they will keep spilling vitriol and hatred and will never ever be prosecuted.

     In NZ you can get an ankle bracelet for six months for raping 4? underage girls but if this goes through we could put away Fundamentalist pastors because of their deeply held beliefs.

     Therein lies the danger of the Hate Speech laws – they will be weaponised by whichever faction is in power and will be used to pick off all dissenters as it suits.

     Join the Free Speech Union and stand up for freedom of expression even if it is made by people you cant stand saying things you deeply disagree with. Without genuine discourse and exchange of views, democracy is finished. And BTW, Free Speech is not a Left/Right issue – many of us are not right wing.

     • it’s not ‘pastors deeply held belifes’….it’s their compulsion to inflict those belifes on others by force if neccesary…now if that isn’t forced coertion to toe a party line I don’t know what is..fantail

       • What force are you talking about Gaga?

         Most churches these days accept homosexuals and it is only fundamentalists who dont. If I was a homosexual Christian and both aspects were important to me, I would simply attend another church although I accept this may not be an option for those under the age of 16.

         Having to leave a particular church is not akin to giving the State the ability to put you in jail for your religious beliefs/speech. But I guess it could be considered similar to the cancellation tactics rolled out across Universities by mainly Trans Activists when the Free Speech Union wanted to come on campus and speak. They blocked the use of venues, posted far and wide physically and online, used language such as Fascist, Racist, Bigoted, Far Right and I could be wrong but I dont think the Police ever went out to see any of them. Was that behaviour coercive, did it frighten away people who wanted to come listen – sure it did? So what’s the difference between both measures of Points of View? Why does one end up with someone at a police station and another doesnt? Use of political power perhaps which is exactly the point I tried to get across?

         As I said, its not about what, you or I or anyone else thinks about the ‘correctness’ of the speech or the belief, it is about their right to believe it and speak it, Gaga.

         • fantail look to the US fundies and the infiltration of NZ by their money to see where it’s going.. it can’t happen here..are famous last words

           and is this the time to mention gloriavale and some religious nutters attachment to gay conversion theraphy?

           • Paranoia is very unbecoming in a leftie, Yuri. It’s supposed to be a right-wing vice.

             The religious right in NZ has nothing like the influence it has in the US, and it never has had. We don’t even have a regular conservative party – the Nats are just neoliberals, with little interest in fighting culture wars.

             • pope. it has nothing like the influence AT THE MOMENT but the ultimate aim of us funding is to gain that influence…what part of my post is ‘paranoia’ gloriavale don’t have kiddy fiddlers? or nz xtians have not come out in favour of gay conversion? kindly point out the paranoia…or is it just that you have no argument?

2. I don’t think the Left will learn from arguments about “priniciples”. I’ll just vote for any government that uses this law to put Lefties in jail. It’s the only way you’ll learn that this is a bad idea.

   • Is that like John Key and his police mates going after people that exposed what a dirty (politics) arsehole he was? It seems free speech wasn’t such a priority for the right then.

   • No need to put people in jail, Tom, just vote them out. Nobody wanted Key jailed for his nonsense about Nick Hager being a conspiracy theorist, they read the books to learn the facts – apart, it seems, from a few groupies at Stuff. Just remember that Mr Hager has never been sued for his various political revelations nor lost court cases pertaining to them. Facts.

   • @ T.H. Ha! That’s a long way around to admitting you do brain-farts.
     It’s all kind of simple, like your mind, if you think about it. Unlike your mind.
     Back in the early 1900’s farmers grew stuff and things which were exported. The money that was received from those exports was considerable considering how few farmers there were, and still are interestingly. Couple that with our invention of refrigerated shipping which enabled us to supply edible goods to the northern hemisphere winters so we were onto a winner. And win we did. look around? Everything you see that was, or still is, a state owned enterprise, etc was an asset farmer money built. It also built the hyper rich who were quick to exploit that incredibly lucrative income stream.
     There was a farmers union to begin with but that looked like it would’ve been too powerful, too strong for the hyper rich to continue to exploit so a federation of farmers was mooted. The farmers Union was disbanded at about the same time as two dodgy factions of fascist capitalists coalesced to form the plague that’s known as The National Party which became synonymous with Farmers. Funny that aye? The National Party, a complex system of quisling traitors to the fast growing bankster clique we see today. And so within that federation there settled old pro national party cronies with a penchant for gin, whisky and all manner of dubious city bound going’s on. Including syphoning off the money of their farmer colleagues into dodgy bankster operations and from there that money was normalised by sympathetic ministries and then into private pockets which built the now nine multi billionaires. And Auckland.
     The biggest problem faced by politicians today is to keep AO/NZ functioning while trying to side step where it is, that our money, in fact, comes from. Tourism has been suggested. Which is ludicrous. Our economy did well over the covid period which is also when tourism was at its lowest ebb.
     AO/NZ reportedly had the third highest standard of living in the world in 1973-ish. I think that was before tourism really took off and Queenstown’s bars and cafe’s became popular. Or at least they would if coffee was $500,000 a cup and a pie was $900,000
     roger thought he had it sussed. He introduced Thatcherism to us via the labour party he parasitised and melt all our politics, and our economy, into one greedy nest of liars and crooks and call it liberal and progressive.
     If anyone should go to prison, it should be the entire right wing along with bankers, producer board swindlers, export companies, mercantile firms, lawyers and privateers like watties, fletcher challenge, wrightsons PGG Fay Richwite Group. Alan Gibb, Chandler, hart, watson etc, etc.

     • Actually I am a farmer, running the same farm I grew up on, so I think I know at least as much as you about the subject. Reading the massive word vomits from you is a daily reminder of some of the stranger folk that I’ve known over the decades in my little farming community.

3. I fully support these new “Hate Speech” laws. Signed, Nikolay Chernyshevsky.

4. Labour has turned NZ into the woke joke
   Of the world.

   • UK implemented hate speech laws in 1986 and has made the country more violent and more divided – both internally and from the EU. Free speech is a human right, to take it away, brings a country backwards.

     • Really though? I don’t think we need to change the law but it’s drawing a long bow to say that the UK went down hill because of the Hate Speech Legislation. They left the EU because of xenophobia and the likes of Boris and that wanker Nigel Farage being free to say whatever the hell they wanted including utter bullshit lies.

       The recent debacle under Truss was because it was just plain stupid as an idea.

       • After the 2004 enlargement of the EU, most other EU countries put restrictions for work and welfare so they did not face a big influx of former Eastern Europeans, the UK did not and had 5x the amount of new residents. Countries that phased in immigration ultimately did better.

         Then there was also the amount of ‘gold bricks’ housing where new builds built by foreign money were well outside of the incomes of Britains who worked in London and the UK. Many of which were linked to money laundering, avoiding paying UK taxes that UK workers had to pay https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-58780559 – non democratic countries billionaire nationals got UK residency and went on a buying spree – London became a playing ground for gross wealth while adding to poverty and taxing the middle class.

         Brexit was a backlash that many people did not even know about or vote for and many lies were told by the politicians that they got away with. During the referendum the media told everybody Remain was winning and thus the vote was low. Britain never had another vote to prove that that is what Britain’s wanted.

       • boris and farage where a failure of media to challenge them not a failure of law

   • That’s correct but remember the Left need rules and regulations to exist they have always lacked original thought.

     • Oh the irony…

       • Yes standalonecomplex unfortunately you are correct.

     • Don’t worry about hate speech, look at Bob’s comments, it’s nonsense speech like his we need to worry about, with the disinformation he spreads.

   • Kirk28 unfortunately you are correct.

5. Hate speech is pretty much destroying freedom of speech and allowing petty investigation and criminal charges over others. This cancel culture has also enabled far greater violence as people are enabled to take offence at what someones says – such as rise of comedians being attacked on stage and people being attacked randomly on the streets. Irony and humour is suppressed as we live in a society where people are too woke to joke. Nowonder people are self describing themselves as mentally ill.

   Since the UK pushed through hate speech laws, their violence and extremism has increased and they are now a basket case. Their economy is shrinking as smarter people are leaving as they can’t get the advantages that they used to get from the EU. Price gouging is high, like NZ, UK government policy has attracted low cost labour for decades and the unemployed and their labour costs are low. This repels people with higher skills who are attracted to countries with high cost labour so that they can save and get ahead.

   In a time where the police can’t respond to many incidents of crime and the courts are full to the brim, they are going to have them investigating this like the UK, bonkas…. just another way to harassing people, now we have photographing and finger printing of children in NZ.

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_laws_in_the_United_Kingdom

   “On 13 October 2001, Harry Hammond, an evangelist, was arrested and charged under section 5 of the Public Order Act (1986) because he had displayed to people in Bournemouth a large sign bearing the words “Jesus Gives Peace, Jesus is Alive, Stop Immorality, Stop Homosexuality, Stop Lesbianism, Jesus is Lord”. In April 2002, a magistrate convicted Hammond, fined him £300, and ordered him to pay costs of £395.[15][16][17]

   On 2 September 2006, Stephen Green was arrested in Cardiff for distributing pamphlets which called sexual activity between members of the same sex a sin. On 28 September 2006, the Crown advised Cardiff Magistrates Court that it would not proceed with the prosecution.[18][19]

   On 8 December 2009, District Judge Richard Clancy, sitting at Liverpool Magistrates’ Court, acquitted Ben and Sharon Vogelenzang, hoteliers, of charges under the Public Order Act 1986 and under the Crime and Disorder Act 1998. The Vogelensangs were charged after a guest at their hotel, Ericka Tazi, complained that the Vogelenzangs had insulted her after she appeared in a hijab.[20]

   On 4 March 2010, a jury returned a verdict of guilty against Harry Taylor, who was charged under Part 4A of the Public Order Act 1986. Taylor was charged because he left anti-religious cartoons in the prayer-room of Liverpool’s John Lennon Airport on three occasions in 2008. The airport chaplain, who was insulted, offended, and alarmed by the cartoons, called the police.[21][22][23] On 23 April 2010, Judge Charles James of Liverpool Crown Court sentenced Taylor to a six-month term of imprisonment suspended for two years, made him subject to a five-year Anti-Social Behaviour Order (ASBO) (which bans him from carrying religiously offensive material in a public place), ordered him to perform 100 hours of unpaid work, and ordered him to pay £250 costs. Taylor was convicted of similar offences in 2006.[24]

   On 20 April 2010, police arrested Dale McAlpine, a Christian preacher, of Workington in Cumbria, for saying that homosexual conduct was a sin. On 14 May 2010, the Crown decided not to prosecute McAlpine.[25] Later still the police apologised to McAlpine for arresting him at all, and paid him several thousand pounds compensation.[26]

   On 23 April 2018, Scottish YouTuber Mark Meechan of Coatbridge, North Lanarkshire was fined £800 after being found “grossly offensive” for posting a YouTube video that was viewed over 3 million times depicting him training his girlfriend’s pug to respond to the phrase “Sieg Heil” by lifting his paw in a Nazi salute.[27] Tory MP Philip Davies requested a review of freedom of expression in parliament in response to the conviction.[28] Comedians Ricky Gervais and David Baddiel tweeted in support of Meechan.[29][30][31] Tom Walker, Shappi Khorsandi, and Stephen Fry defended Meechan and criticised other comedians for their silence on the issue.[32][33][34] Meechan, who plans to appeal, was sentenced to pay an £800 fine on 23 April 2018.[35][36] A crowd of about 500 people protested against the move in London.[37]

   In 2017, 19-year old Croxteth resident Chelsea Russell quoted a line from Snap Dogg’s song “I’m Trippin'” on her Instagram page. The line, which read “Kill a snitch nigga, rob a rich nigga”, was copied from a friend’s page as part of a tribute to Frankie Murphy who was killed in a car accident at age 13.[38][39] Hate crime investigators were alerted to the presence of the slur and charged Russell with “sending a grossly offensive message by means of a public electronic communications network”. Defence lawyer Carole Clarke stated that she received a request from one of the arresting officers that the word “nigga”, the subject of the trial, not be used in court.[40] In April 2018, District Judge Jack McGarva found Russell guilty and delivered a sentence which included a £585 fine, a curfew and an ankle monitoring bracelet.[41] However, Russell’s conviction was overturned by Liverpool Crown Court on 21 February 2019.[42]”

   • and where does banning the diary of anne frank fit into ‘freedom of speech’ snz?

     • Personally believe that banning of books should be a crime.

       • So do I as do many but the Left have always wanted to control people and if that includes burning books then that’s what they will do.
         I mean why stop at controlling what people say we need to control thought as well.

         • Burning/destroying books, in NZ universities to save a few pennies.

           Library closures prompt fears University of Auckland will burn books
           https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/354765/library-closures-prompt-fears-university-of-auckland-will-burn-books

           Three specialist libraries to close at University of Auckland, 45 jobs to go
           https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/three-specialist-libraries-to-close-at-university-of-auckland-45-jobs-to-go/DD43XVXVMP2OC5FWZABFSTPGAQ/

           What does Auckland University spend money on – premises for their chancellor.

           A $5 million home bought by Auckland University for its vice-chancellor has been sat empty for at least two months after the university agreed to sell it in the wake of a finger-wagging report from the Auditor General’s office.
           https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/124225050/auckland-universitys-5m-parnell-mansion-sat-empty-for-weeks-now-set-for-sale

           Nobody has to bother to actually do course work anymore in NZ universities. It’s getting money from students that’s important not the quality of students, any ethics and the integrity of the degree.

           Cheating scandal exposed: NZ university students paying Chinese company’s ghostwriters to write papers
           https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/cheating-scandal-exposed-nz-university-students-paying-chinese-companys-ghostwriters-to-write-papers/B6BUP44KGBCUTTJPG2VSGYXAKI/

           Bit like the quality of our fake managers and fake jobs paying fake wages in NZ.
           “In 2016, Dhiman was granted a three-year essential work visa as a store manager for the pizza store in Flat Bush.”
           https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2022/10/exploited-migrant-worker-awarded-nearly-100k-in-compensation.html

         • bob the last I think you’ll find it was the nazi students organisation burning books…just a little historical fact for you…though most govts censor books…you couldn’t get a copy of lady chatterly in the uk until the 60s and NZ has a long and glorious history of ‘moral panic’ censorship the most recent the banning of a t-shirt by a 3rd rate thrash/goth band.

           • Look lets be clear, it’s been said before Bob struggles with history and economics and evidence based statements. That won’t change.

           • Gosh thanks gagarin I didn’t know that.
             Sorry Bert must reflect my inferior education.

   • In a way banning unallowed speech is bringing another human tendency likely to keep happening into disrepute so that we can be preyed on by an authoritarian state. It’s like cannabis, a pseudo preventative anti-drug campaign against a relatively mild habit thus trapping a lot of people into undesirable status. Say the wrong thing, an infitisimal? slip of the tongue perhaps, and there you are – an undesirable.

     It is not a desirable government that does this and those who promote, encourage, facilitate it are not just bossy they are shaping up to be little hitlers et al. Doesn’t matter what cloak of fairness or goodness or idealistic purity they throw over their chosen uniform , under it they have festering badness growing. Halloween is an appropriate time for discussing this!

     Ancient Origins of Halloween
     This day marked the end of summer and the harvest and the beginning of the dark, cold winter, a time of year that was often associated with human death. Celts believed that on the night before the new year, the boundary between the worlds of the living and the dead became blurred.
     Halloween: Origins, Meaning & Traditions – HISTORY
     https://www.history.com › topics › history-of-halloween

     • Greywarbler thanks for that my thoughts exactly.

6. Less new laws, less committees, concentrate on enforcement of existing laws……. you know use resources wisely rather than creating more and more woke laws to clog up the justice system and police. I bet 99.9% of people living in NZ are more concerned with violent attacks on kids that getting that preacher off the street who doesn’t believe in gay sex. Society need to allow people to disagree – where it should become a crime is if they are denied service and opportunities if they are gay (aka not allowing gay couples to rent a hotel room or get a job etc,). Not at the point of having a personal viewpoint on a given subject.

   People are now being groomed to be alarmed at everything it’s actually become a way to anxiety and not being able to function. Stop the woke enablement and rise of snowflakes and stupidity!

   Watch: Videos show multiple teenage attacks on Christchurch children
   https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2022/10/31/kiri-allans-hate-speech-laws-will-be-the-political-kiss-of-death-to-labour/

7. Wokeborg can’t help itself. Ultimately it eats itself but in the interim provides significant amusement.

   Wait till they have teams crawling through blogs trying to identify people because someone over on the Standard is triggered…….

   • Frank the Tank. “ Just wait until they have teams crawling through blogs… “. If they are the sort of teams who claimed that Shakespeare was an imperialist, then the outlook is decidedly grim.

8. Yes I was an extremely loyal labour supporter until the woke cancelled SUFWs talks in public libraries, which were to discuss the gender self ID bill.

   Meeting after meeting got canceled by public libraries after trans rights activists lobbied hard and characterised SUFW as a hate group. They are nothing of the sort. Most of these women are leftie feminist activists from way back. Many of them are lesbians, so are actually part of the Rainbow community. They had to go to the High Court to fight for their meetings to go ahead. The judge declared they were not a hate group.

   An experience like this leads to profound disillusionment. And it wakes you up to what is really going on with identity politics and the left. With the exception of Martyn Bradbury and Chris Trotter, the left have utterly betrayed women in their viscous shut down of GC women. The hate speech laws will be used against GC women.

   Yes, I may vote Act or even NZ first. Anything to make cRT , gender ideology etc stop, or at least put the breaks pn

   • Civil rights going backwards under woke forcing their ‘correct’ view on others.

     Right wingers funded wokes to cancel any collective change aka climate school strikes. https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/444736/school-strike-4-climate-auckland-declares-itself-racist-and-disbands

     The safe spaces the woke demand to lift a finger, https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2022/10/11/you-wont-believe-this-new-attack-on-free-speech-uoa-greens-cancel-all-debates-if-they-cant-have-trigger-free-safe-spaces/ seem to be out of step with other activists action for change.

     Imagine if Nelson Mandela and other civil rights leaders through history decided they couldn’t bear to debate because the space was not safe enough. Woke are lazy, impractical and the opposite of safe spaces, due to their rabid cancellation, smugness and intolerance of others.

     ‘Boys can do anything”.

     “Dozens of activists quit the Green Party as transgender campaigner is made head of its women’s section
     Exodus, involving at least 40 women, follows appointment in December of Kathryn Bristow, who was born a man but now identifies as a transwoman
     Ms Bristow is seen as a rising star in a party famed for its ‘wokeness’
     She appeared in the 2020 Pink List of most influential members of LGBT community in her home city of Bristol
     Her critics claim Ms Bristow’s new role means women are losing representation within the party “.

     https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9232663/Green-activists-fury-transgender-campaigner-head-womens-section.html

     Jeremy Corbyn and Labour’s anti-Semitism row explained
     https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-43893791

     Nobody can get anything done, due to the amount of identity complaints/harrassment that derail any progress.

     • Right wingers funded wokes … Oh FFS. Your monkeys, your circus. Take some responsibility.

       • The woke couldn’t organise a beer in a brewery.

         Does anyone think these woke monkeys are able to function without funding, organisation and support? Someone has to provide and pay for these wokies – these snowflakes are literally not even able to attend a debate anymore as too triggering. https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2022/10/11/you-wont-believe-this-new-attack-on-free-speech-uoa-greens-cancel-all-debates-if-they-cant-have-trigger-free-safe-spaces/

         Anti vax https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/news/crime/parliament-protest-donations-went-into-bank-account-of-man-with-history-of-unpaid-debt/

         https://www.newsroom.co.nz/nz-anti-vaxxers-fall-for-tsunami-of-russian-disinformation

         https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/where-things-stand-majority-of-anti-vax-trucker-protest-funds-were-donated-by-americans

         ++Imagine if Nelson Mandela, Suffergates etc, waited for safe spaces for them before they could lift a finger for change.+++

         The fuckwittery continues as NZ Parliament marches on to criminalise gay preachers and witch hunts on speech, while murdered teens are not discovered in a timely manner in burnt out cars. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/body-in-burnt-out-car-for-two-days-police-told-passerby-it-was-a-sheep/AICHYIXYOJDGCOQYHEQVYPK4TQ/

   • @Anker “the left have utterly betrayed women”

     Agreed and LGBT people too. Activists have redefined homosexuality as same gender, rather than same sex, attracted. Instead of ‘some people are gay get over’ we now have ‘lesbians who won’t suck lady dick are transphobic’ (which no trans person I know actually believes).

     ‘Queerness’ has been made an identity to transgress the cis binary norms. That is an identity which can be opted into for social status and clout, the ‘aesthetic of queerness’. Thus making it a lifestyle choice rather than a thing you are.

     It’s like activists are trying to prove every social conservative talking point from the 80s and 90s.

     • Agree

9. The contemporary left has a failure of memory and principles. These arguments, ideas and consequences have been litigated and played out for decades if not centuries.
   Yet here we are again it’s like advocating for the military use of poison gas. It seems like an effective weapon but the destruction is brutal, indiscriminate and hard to contain. Then the wind changes direction.

   It’s simple, if you lack wisdom for anything better, at a minimum don’t create rules and precedents you wouldn’t like your political opponents to use against you.

   • Tui. Yep, played out for centuries – Shakespeare articulated it all splendidly – Can you see the debaters of Ancient Greece seated in the Beehive of Bowen Street ? Yes? It’s unclear whether these are the new kids on the block just learning about life, paranoid controlling sociopaths, or something else. To cancel this regressive Act, it might be necessary to flag away other freedoms – politicians compromise themselves all the time, and it’s a shame if cleaner people have to do likewise. We’ll cope.

     • @Snow White I’d like to think “new kids on the block”. Or as is sadly common with the left, a conviction of being on the side of the angels and holders of the ‘one truth’ getting in the way of considering 2nd and 3rd order consequences.

       I have no illusions of what a Nat/ACT/NZF government might mean but a poor election result and a term in opposition might be the best thing for the long term. Giving Labour and the left cause for reflection and time to get their s%it together.

10. The silencing of the Commissioner for Children’s voice should have been a kiss of death for the Labour government. The establishing of the odd extremist hate speech centre at Victoria University should have been another. Ardern’s anti-free speech advocacy to the UNO, was a big bear hug too. Add in Speech Officers now in government departments, and the sound of silence from Labour could free us from its asphyxiating bonds. Adieu, Kiri, adieu adieu adieu, I can no longer be with you.

    • “The silencing of the Commissioner for Children’s voice should have been a kiss of death for the Labour government.”
      In fucking deed!
      My reckons in this space going forward is that it will probably be just ONE of the things that’ll do it.
      There’s a lot they need to abandon, and a lot they need to seriously put some effort into.
      But can you see that happening…….seriously?
      Even the best of them have bitten by the “slowly does it bullet” fired from the gun owned by the senior ranks of the uncivil public service.
      Which may have been appropriate during the incrementalist’s era, but not now, Too many have been damaged and there are quite a few more to come.

11. Labour are accidentally opening up dormant faultlines of NZ First and ACT and other similar parties. An interesting political strategy.

    • But is it accidental?

      Some postulate it is deliberate

      I think they know what can happen but simply dont care because they are think they know better. Just shut up and take it. t’ll all be worth it in the end.

12. “Kiri Allan’s hate speech laws will be the political kiss of death to Labour.”

    On a lettuce timescale?

    • We live in hope!

13. I’m currently reading the Handmaids Tale at the moment and as a society we are not that far away from the dystopian one described in that book. Dark days indeed but possibly worse yet to come unless we take a stand

    • What utter bullshit XXX. The US and their god bothering hypocrite wankers yes, but saying NZ is close to that is deluded

      • I dont think X meant his comment literally, more figuratively

      • Go re-invent yourself wheel

        I’m talking in a broad sense where people self censor in case they say the wrong thing and lose their job, where there is a single source of truth that cannot be questioned and challenged unless you want to get on some watch list

        come back when you have had a retread wheel

        • Judging by the deluge of retarded comments on this site, and out there in general, I don’t think people are self-censoring at all.

      • XXX straight from the X files and Qanon, in fact a life member, so deranged.

        • LOL. 🙂

    • On the button xxx we must take a stand against this tyranny.

      • Yes Bob , Luxon must come clean, we must make a stand.. Why are the(some) right wing voters deplorables?

        I can see Bob right now applauding Trump junior and yet the tyranny Trump snr reigned downing on America was nothing short of disgusting.

        https://edition.cnn.com/2022/10/31/politics/donald-trump-jr-paul-pelosi-reaction/index.html?dicbo=v2-0f45eb599851748498ec2f8877cc208c

        I suggest Bob you go back to Dulwich school and ask for a recount as you clearly haven’t got a fucking clue as to what tyranny really means, you really don’t.

        • Gee thanks Bert.

14. I love Kiri Allen.

    • I used to until yesterday. She says she is a Governor??? And insists Hate Speech provisions will be foisted on us before the election. Just dropped a long way I think.

      • I liked her to begin but now she’s just another Labour Government hack regurgitating all their silly nonsense rather than tackling the serious issues of which there are many.

15. It seems to me that this type of legislation reflects the effect of putting those newly educated from higher learning in charge of making pragmatic decisions. Or someone who is well versed in a particular mindset in such a position. And that applies too to those following our present economic track threaded between dangerous hot mud pools! The ideas passed on at tertiary level are often not utilised when they should be. But when they are under the control of some young person filled with ‘should be’s’ they are likely to become destructive theories eating away at imperfect but working ways of society.

    • “some young person filled with ‘should be’s’ they are likely to become destructive theories eating away at imperfect but working ways of society.”

      @GW spot on, utopian thinking has predictable outcomes.

    • Agree GW they are certainly of a mindset,radicalised even.

16. As a loyal Labour voter, there seems to be no signs they’re waking up to reality at the moment in this space.
    Unfortunately things even seem to be getting worse. It could simply be that they’ve been utterly captured by the language of the neoliberal corporatised wanker (where things like ‘dependant contractors’ are referred to as ‘INdependent contractors’, and managing the message has become more important than actually doing stuff).
    As much as I think JA will go down in history ranking as one of our better PMs, sure as shit she isn’t transformative, NOR open and transparent, NOR consultative, NOR very kind to various demographics. And NOR a a few of her Munsters who seem happy licking her boots)
    I’ve bin thinking that “ultimately”, somethinks gotta change “in this space”, and it’s going to take a shock for that She, and a few Labour lapdogs to wake up to the number of voters they’ve managed to alienate.
    Hopefully the Labour Party will be doing several “pieces of work”, bit I fear that unless they return to their rootings, it’ll all be for nowt. (And I’m usually a glass half full kinda guy).
    It’s probably too late and it’ll be down to the roulette wheel rather than a committed effort to do something meaningful

17. Just listen to Arderns UN speech
    Governments are the pulpit of truth and anything they don’t like should be cancelled
    Really!!!

    • Tribal Scot Ardern’s speech at the UN was chilling.

      • Bob the first. Agree. It received significant comment on overseas news outlets.

      • Absolutely brilliant speech by Ardern, it’s why the world adores her.

18. Good on Kiri.
    The right have always lived under a dictatorship mentality . Without rules and regulations for all, our country would become North Korea with another right wing government.

    • North Korea, the famous right wing beacon of freedom and non regulation?

      What inverted reality are you living in
      National is Sqeuaky Clean?
      Showing yourself to be completely 180 degrees wrong doesn’t help your credibility.

      • Not too bright are you. You ended up totally embarrassing yourself. Next time leave the thinking to those that can…you have zero credibility.

        Kim rules North Korea as a totalitarian dictatorship,[3][4] and his leadership has followed the same cult of personality as his father and grandfather. In 2014, a landmark United Nations Human Rights Council report suggested that Kim could be put on trial for crimes against humanity. He has ordered the purge or execution of several North Korean officials; he is also widely believed to have ordered the 2017 assassination of his half-brother, Kim Jong-nam, in Malaysia. He has presided over an expansion of the consumer economy, construction projects and tourist attractions. Kim also expanded North Korea’s nuclear program which led to heightened tensions with the United States and South Korea. In 2018 and 2019, Kim took part in summits with South Korean President Moon Jae-in and US President Donald Trump. He has claimed success in combatting the COVID-19 pandemic in North Korea; the country did not report any confirmed cases until May 2022, although many experts doubt this claim.[5]

        As I said, you are an embarrassment, living your own inverted reality.

    • Is this satire? I can’t tell

      • Depends how thick you are and judging by your posts, you are a 6 foot concrete wall.

        • Charming aren’t you 🙂

    • Under this dictatorial Labour Government we are well on the way to becoming like North Korea.
      Labour Government will tell us what we can and cannot say which is very North Korean.
      Redefine democracy,end universal suffrage sounds North Korean.

19. “The immediate threat of political violence comes from the far right. ”

    You sure about that? I remember the Left having a huge laugh when former Home Brew singer Tom Scott wrote a song about killing then PM John Key and raping his daughter.

    His only regret was that he should have said he would rape his son instead.

    The threat of political violence comes from the extremes. Both extremes. And there is an extreme Left just as present as an extreme Right.

    • Does Labour MP Mallard having a fist fight count as political violence?

      • Does Tau Henare having a fist fight or John Keys assault on a waitress?

    • yup it was antifa who attacked a man in his 80s with a hammer fatchance

    • Correct, which side did the 50 or so violent protestors come from who ‘arrived’ the day of the riots? We still dont know and they sure didnt look like NF.

20. We need to remember that legislation once in, even when seen to be a mistake, can be very hard to dislodge. We need to run a mile from being tolerant about the trend to jackboot
    altruism being imposed in an authoritarian way.
    Tom Lehrer has some jibes about this – he is Jewish.
    National Brotherhood Week
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIlJ8ZCs4jY

    • Greywarbler “ …legislation once in…can be very hard to dislodge.” Precisely. The whole concept of “hate speech” is ill-defined and open to manipulation, mischief making, and time wasting, with the lawyers laughing all the way to the bank, as usual. We need more robust discussion of important issues in New Zealand, not people too intimidated to stumble or speak.

      Once again, James Baxter put it well, that in this ‘ cold threshold land, the mountains crouch like tigers’. Here it appears to be the government waiting to pounce, although this does taken on a comical aspect with agent Kidman pouncing on the nomenclature of a cat. But yes, best this legislation be abandoned.

      • SW – I haven’t got into James K B and sense a hollow gap around my soul. What a special family he came from. I am reading all sorts of stuff at present and my synapses are pretty active I hope – enough to read some JB soon.

        • Greywarbler. Baxter could be banned now, but an old book of Arnold Walls I got at the Sallies, could have me cancelled too, but his reflections on early New Zealand were basically very much a realistic picture of how things were then. Interestingly, a nearby V de P manager told me his manager told him not to put out donated books published before a specific fairly recent date, but I think that was fairly innocent.

          Don’t worry about any space around your soul, other stuff will fill it, and at a certain age, one’s less inclined to spend too much time on the agonies of lost loves – or horribleness about folk we never knew – as far as we know. But what a family J B had, great genes there.

    • +100 Greywarbler

      More timely enforcement of existing laws is needed in NZ, not more laws taking up more time and resources and division from enforcing existing laws that currently seem to be lacking.

21. ACT

    Ignoring the fact ACT are as strong as they are because of the collapse of the National vote. The total is still below the amount National got 2008-2017. The same thing happened 2002 until Brash went Orewa (and still lost because Labour still outpolled him and so NZF went with Labour).

    ISSUE

    The PM wants to do something about “religious hate speech” because some white identity male committed terrorist violence against those of a minority immigrant associated religion. She hopes she might get some support for those from National as they were reluctant to get rid of the blasphemy law (still on the books in 2017 alongside prayer to Jesus in parliament). She might be trying to hook the old conservative right into considering a limited one based on religion – but then it would widen to race/ethnicity – then there would be agitation by LGB and so onto then the wider queer orbit of GT and self ID – then we are at GCT and RCT culture war intersect with the USA (as it replays its civil war/states rights era and unwinds civil rights to a narrative derived from Gilead of the Hand Maids Tale).

    But we already have hate crime laws. And the best thing about free speech is that it allow those who hate to be identified and placed under networking and planning crime watch.

    • “And the best thing about free speech is that it allow those who hate to be identified and placed under networking and planning crime watch.”

      Spot on SPC. Let people speak their minds, and if individuals or organizations stray into dangerous territory then keep a close watch on them and arrest them the moment they encourage people to harm others (or themselves).

      We already have laws to police those who would encourage people to harm others, or themselves. Yet this morning on Morning Report, Corin Dann claimed people are free to advocate violence online – surely Dann is guilty of spreading misinformation.

22. I wish antifa were actually that well organised…the rightard back peddling and denials is getting kinda old.

23. LOL. 🙂

24. An excellent commentary Martyn! Thanks.

    Now what was I saying some time ago about the left metastasizing into fascism? Because here it is.

25. Repeal.
    Repeal.
    Repeal.
    Phew. So much to repeal, the first 100 days will just be spent repealling.

26. let’s just get this straight the right have a longer ‘cancellation list’ which they will impliment given the chance…they are woke snowflakes too just over different issues…..so can we leave the moral shit out of the argument…it’s about preferrences in suppression that’s all.

27. I found frightening what the UK had developed and took some links for reference about hate speech crime and those who have erred against all sorts from someone’s sensitivities to the totally malicious and violence. There is an extensive government set up.

    Some of the links:
    https://www.cps.gov.uk/information-and-support-victims-witnesses
    (Crown Prosecution Service)
    Being a victim or a witness to a crime can often be difficult and you may not know very much about the criminal justice system. We will treat all victims and witnesses with respect and understanding throughout the criminal justice process.
    From reporting the crime to passing sentence, we explain here what happens, the role of the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) and what you can expect from us
    *******************************
    https://www.cps.gov.uk/publication/hate-crime-reports
    Annually – and apparently this started about 2006.
    Hate crime and crimes against older people report 2013-2014
    This is the seventh Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) hate crime annual report, and brings together information on CPS performance in prosecuting racist and religious hate crime, homophobic and transphobic crime, crimes against the older
    ********************************
    Here are some of the stats:
    https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-8537/CBP-8537.pdf
    ******************************
    Here is an interesting device of the Brit Govt.
    The Disclosure and Barring Service
    The Disclosure and Barring Service helps employers make safer recruitment decisions. DBS is an executive non-departmental public body, sponsored by the Home Office.
    Disclosure and Barring Service – GOV.UK
    https://www.gov.uk › Organisations
    **************************************
    How far back does a DBS check go?
    How Far Back Does a Standard DBS Check Go? Standard DBS checks can go as far back as possible, as there is no limit. This is because they show everything a basic does, as well as both spent and unspent convictions.
    How Far Back Does a DBS Check Go? – Aaron’s Department
    https://www.aaronsdepartment.com › how-far-back-does-…

    Just a thought – Joanne Harrison came here from the UK and was rather naughty here. Got put in jail for a very short while but then went back to the UK and has changed her name apparently and I think is working again under that name. So who is affected by all this
    convoluted record keeping of petty crime and even non-crime of UK citizens?

28. The shite from the arses of the unscrupulous rich will capture everyone without a clue but with dissatisfaction — ninety percent of us. Truth and satisfaction are good defenses. Labour would have to leave alone its focus groups.

    • Shouters for the truth are vital now. This last decade where we can do anything about our extinction. I don’t give a flying for immediate shite. Regret the treasure spent on covid, apart from overloading the hospitals. The Left is about reality or it’s about nothing. You’re a fricking letter’s page on that scale. The Left pages here are unserious. Aside from Chomsky, most around the world.

29. If we are to be prosecuted, fined, imprisoned and bullied for “hate speech”, (in my view actually preferable to knife crime, as has become an epidemic in the UK where hate speech laws have been around for a while) then we should therefore also be praised, remunerated (at an equivalent rate) and compensated for “love speech”.
    I can’t think of a more apt example than a beautiful nurse who told me how to suckle my firstborn. I know nurses are underpaid and overworked. No amount of diagrams, reality shows, documentaries could have replaced her few words in any way shape or form and never will; and yet the diseased ‘copyright’ rort suckles the teat of the warmonger without constraint. We ignore nature at our peril in favour of ‘science’ whilst forgetting Newton’s first law.

30. as I tend to drone on about
    define hate speech then NZ can have a conversation

31. Nobody had ever heard of Lee Williams until Byron Clark platformed him.

32. ‘We’ are an island.
    So all they need to do is build a wall all along the coastline of NZ!
    Next ‘Fuck Boy Island’ becomes ‘Fuck’d Islands!’ Some ‘real’ entertainment and a petri dish for the world to study.

    Just add shit and see what happens! Now that would be entertaining!

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