The war in Ukraine has entered a dangerous new phase.
Only the Russian people can stop it.
To win the Russian people over to oppose the war. Justice must be seen to be done. War crimes must be uncovered and exposed.
Despite how warranted and just they may be, every War Crimes Tribunal is a show trial.
The Tokyo War Crimes Tribunal was racked with division over the refusal of the American military police prosecutors to bring war crimes charges against the US for Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the fire bombing of Tokyo itself. The fire bombing of Tokyo, which at that time was mostly a wooden built city with the new weapon napalm, killed 100,000 civilians.
In a protest at the refusal of the the prosecutors to bring charges against the victors for war crimes, the Judge from India, Justice Paal refused in protest, (despite their undeniable guilt), to vote to convict any of the Japanese war criminals.
Justice Paal was no liberal. When the majority justices voted for conviction, Justice Paal voted for the death penalty for all of them.
The point is; Every War Crimes Tribunal is a show trial.
The hypocrisy of the victors gave strength to the revanchist Japanese nationalists and fascists, right up to the present day.
Pat O’Dea is a trade unionist and human rights activist.
Where do we start Pat. Do we parade out the victims of Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya etc etc etc first or do we whitewash all that Colonial bullshit and just start at Russia?
My suggestion for a good starting point is the Ukrainian Neo Nazi’s War crimes documented by Amnesty international in 2018, we can use as evidence the BBC and CNNs own documentary’s pre SMO as a starting point. Russia Bad, yeah we get it.
It appears the Katyn solution is still part of Russian military methodology.
Err, this war started in 2022
Patty, Don’t you think that the West commits ‘War Crimes’ to promote Liberal Democracy and Human Rights? Remember the War on terror? Remember the reporter ‘Juliane Assange’ exposing war-crimes on innocent Iraqi civilians and Reuter reporters and then being charged with espionage? Double standards indeed!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYTxuW2vmzk
I wasn’t aware Assange is a female.
Spelling is not Stephen’s strongest point!
There are far more important things afoot that we need to focus on. The biggest threat is existential to all of us, nuclear war.
Russia will use nukes in response or if it feels totally threatened. Now swing that through 180 degrees. What will the US do as it sees itself slipping from global hegemony? What will the military industrial intelligence complex do if they see themselves sliding into oblivion? What will the banks and corporations do as economic collapse comes? What will Europe do to prevent going without gas, oil, food as their economies collapse? This is existential for the whole Western system. And Empires don’t go into the dark calmly.
Threats of war crime trials won’t motivate Russians to remove Putin, they understand far more than the West what is really at stake.
Correction. Putin won’t use nukes. He will be taken out if he tries to. Putin might want to fry but his fellow Russians won’t! Where’s your common sense Nick J? Are you getting all jingoistic? I find it hard to believe that you are not a Putinist.
Cantab, read the Russian nuclear doctrine, as elaborated by the Kremlin (not only Putin). Do you really think some guardian angel with a revolver will stop a nuclear response by shooting Putin? Hopefully there are enough sane heads in both Washington and Moscow to keep us “sub nuclear”.
Yes Nick I do. I have confidence in the Russian people to shake off tyranny -eventually.
while Ukraine still support Nazism, often picked by mistake by the MSM – with Nazi salutes/logos/symbols on military uniforms — Russia will oppose the Ukraine Government…sort it out Ukraine Government, clean house on the pro Nazi leaders.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIJLhHcxp7k&ab_channel=TheJimmyDoreShow
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34EMwP8xgFA&ab_channel=TheJimmyDoreShow
What about the Wagner Group Nathan? They are Nazis as well.
The Wagner Group are NOT Nazi – why? Do you really think Russia would hire Nazi??? Come on Cantabrian…think
Oh yes they are naive Nathan. Why are they called the Wagner Group? It’s not a Russian name.
On this point Cantab I’d say you are nearly correct, Wagners groups founders like Utkin are ultra nationalists with far right affiliations. It does Russia no credit using these mercenaries.
Wagners group differ from Azov and Ukrainian equivalents in so much as Azov have direct links to Banderist neo-Nazis going back to the 1940s. Both groups are a blot on humanity.
The collective West and it’s “rules based order” would do well to remember Ukraine is the ONLY country in history to incorporate Neo Nazi battalions into it’s armed forces. Where did they send them in 2014? The Donbas.
The collective West and it’s “rules based order” would do well to remember Ukraine is the ONLY country in history to incorporate Neo Nazi battalions into it’s armed forces. Where did they send them in 2014? The Donbas.
Ahh, Nazi Germany had a couple of Nazi blokes in its armed forces in the thirties and fourties’ I think. And if it was good enough for Ribbentrop and Molotov what’s wrong with it now? I’m staggered by the fact that a few battalions of neo Nazis can so frighten Russia that they have launched an unprovoked attack on a sovereign nation with their magnificent, glorious, incorruptible armed forces.
Live in your little utopia. The reality in Ukraine is all opposition parties are banned and the political scene is now dominated by the far right often with the backing of open Neo Nazis calling for the murder of Russian orcs, Roma and Jews. That’s a documented fact.
Video evidence shows Roma being tapped naked to lampposts covered in paint as well as their camps being overturned and them beaten. This is not propaganda but video evidence by the BBC and CBC pre SMO.
The Russian language is banned from TV, print media and schools despite it being spoken by over 30% of the population. Pre 2014 Russian was recognized as a official language and after the illegal US coup it was then banned denying Russian speaking Ukrainians access to Government services.
The issue is not just a few Neo Nazi battalions but one of a repeated pattern of Ukraine turning into a fascist state that is now glorifying well known Ukrainian Neo Nazis during WW2 by naming public holidays and streets after them as well as erecting statues and even presenting Medals named after them to known Neo Nazis.
The sick part of all this is we are being lied to by the MSM, there’s enough documentary’s by the MSM specifically about the Neo Nazis and fascists in Ukraine pre SMO.
There’s ample evidence by reputable Western sources documenting the Neo Nazis war crimes against the Donbass including Murder, rape, torture and carving swastikas onto victims as well as entire villages being massacred as well as mass graves. A good start is Amnesty internationals own report.
And joining the EU will fix these problems Finngrin not having to ally yourself with a gangster state. As I keep telling you it is only Russian speaking parties that are banned in Ukraine not opposition per se. Yulia Tymoshenko’s party hasn’t been banned neither has Pyotr Poroshenko’s party. Get your facts straight for a change!
Face reality Cantab, “joining the EU will fix these problems”
It’s the effing EU that enabled the Neo Nazis.
There’s stupid, and there’s a special kind of stupid. For someone with a supposed PHD you severely lack critical thinking.
What a load of bs finngrin. You must be smoking a lot of something. How the hell did the EU enable the neo-Nazis? What planet are you on? I think your brain is all scrambled. Your synapses are firing in all the wrong directions! Putin is using the Wagner Group who are neo-Nazis. The commander sports many Nazi tattoos.
What a load of bs finngrin. You must be smoking a lot of something. How the hell did the EU enable the neo-Nazis? What planet are you on? I think your brain is all scrambled. Your synapses are firing in all the wrong directions! Putin is using the Wagner Group who are neo-Nazis. The commander sports many Nazi tattoos.
And you have a monopoly on critical thinking do you Finngrin? You haven’t even answered my point about the Ukrainian opposition in the Rada. You are so blinded by Russian agitprop that you have no idea what the actual truth is.
Fingrim. . Bullshit baffles brains
It might not be the exposure of war crimes that will stop the Russian people from going to war…It will be the young that will be called to fight this war it will be interesting to see how they react to there calling….This is the generation that has been exposed to Maccas and Facebook , tik tok and the ability to do some travel out of Russia…It’s more likely those early morning starts and being shouting at by grumpy Sergeant Major’s might not be their cup of tea….And then being marched off to shoot someone in another country very similar to their own…this might be confusing for the little petals and of course they need 24 hour cellphone coverage and somewhere to charge their phones so they can do gaming….we have all seen what happens when they misplace their chargers….This war is going to be won by MacDonald’s , Apple , android, TikTok and Facebook….Oh….And Putin will have an unfortunate accident…..
Interesting take, Generation Soy raised on Twitter and Makkers is truly international. But I think that we should be cautious in assessing their bravery, I don’t think any different generations have a monopoly on how they react when put under fire. I’d rather however that the adults acted like adults and avoided having to test the young.
Putin’s support is 81% and climbing, additionally Russias troops are banned from using cellphones as they can be targeted. Not so much for country 404 who still look up in shock at the missile coming towards them.
I think it is falling bozo. Thousands out demonstrating. You really are a f…. wit.
Cantabrian you really are a piece of delusional shit. Oh I’ve got a PHD, Ive been to Russia, Ukraine and Japan! I’m relevant. I can smell the Bullshit a mile off.
Tall poppy syndrome. And I haven’t been to Japan!
Really? you claimed in another thread you home stayed with a family in Japan.
Answer my question about the Rada finngrin.
Your comprehension skills are way off – which explains a lot. My father was living in Shanghai when it was invaded by the Japanese in 1937. None of our family have been to Japan. You are welcome to buy his book on Amazon!
PhD I think your olfactory senses are way off fingrinn but you are just an idiot. You just have a massive chip on your shoulder. I’m not going to show you my PhD graduation photo but it sure exists.
And yet here you were offering “proof” of your PHD previously.
Cantabrian – Look in the mirror before name calling
Ditto to you Nathan
Have I called you are name Cantabrian?
No, I’m not with the Russiaphobic alliance looking to strangle the region to satisfy its imperial takeover kink. Ardern doesn’t speak for me on global matters, she has hitched her wagon to the violent US war machine and their endless invasions for a start, truly horrific. Now her and her thug Western cabal are saying a free and fair Donbass referendum to join Russia goes AGAINST the rules based world order. The Ukraine government has outlawed opposition parties you donkeys! Talk about doublespeak drivel, it’s like saying North Korea is the dictatorship regime not the West with their 24 hour monarchy coverage and thousands of images of the English queen plastered everywhere. History will record Ardern supporting colonial barbarity, economic shock, environmental destruction, global censorship, government obfuscation, population control, elitism and nepotism, and forced medical procedures for good measure, all wrapped in a pretty bow of kindness and fake smiles. Utter bullshit.
And Luxons gunna fix it?
Gee Ethan, have a cup of tea and a lie down old son.
indeed rob
…but at least they’re not fat and stupid like a good percentage of US recruits.
As others have aid, western heads need to turn 180 on Ukraine to view things properly.
also, it will not come to nuclear war. Putin does not want it, and the West’s masters will not allow it – they’re evil and greedy, not stupid.
Instead the west will escalate the situation until “Russia retaliates” (read: false flag) with a cyber attack that knocks the Western systems out, causing chaos – but which our unelected technocracy have already handily designed a solution for: cutting us off totally from the new multipolar order and imprisoning us in the Western digital totalitarian “carbon credit” order, modelled and trialled in the Chinese social credit system, allowing the elite to keep their unearned excess of wealth and the rest of us under control.
Rather fanciful – you’re dreaming. What have you been smoking?
And they’re complaining about our current system.
Cantabrian (PhD (weetbix packet)), you better be careful speaking a Slav language. An ignorant hohol might assualt you with the result you claim to police the assailant is a Russian.
https://www.rt.com/news/562869-ukrainian-women-attacked-france/
“He turned out to be a 33-year-old man who had arrived in France seven months ago after having previously served in the Ukrainian military”. “Brave” hohol would seem to have got out of Ukraine as soon as the SMO started. He will be much safer in a french prison –
“Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu … puts Ukrainian losses at some 62,000 killed and some 50,000 wounded.”
https://www.moonofalabama.org/2022/09/russia-announces-partial-mobilization-the-gloves-are-coming-off.html#comments
Cantabrian (PhD (weetbix packet)), you better be careful speaking a Slav language. An ignorant hohol might assualt you, resulting in you complaining to the police about a Russian assailant!
Seer – Ho, Ho ignoramus! You can read my theses in the University of Canterbury library but you wouldn’t understand a word.
It’s titled “How to influence people and pretend you are relevant with bullshit”
Come on Cantabrian, in reality you are a blow hard that constantly hypes up your fictional life. In short a troll. You have yet to offer a constructive comment based in fact. All you do is strut like a peacock.
Well like it or not I am a graduate of the National Centre for Research on Europe UC and I am an expert on Russian and Ukrainian history. My supervisor was Professor Natalia Chaban who is Ukrainian. Look it up.
Bold claim Cantab, What do we search under? Cantabrian lol
All hat, no cattle.
You will see that the latest MA in Russian at UC was mine. Shall I send you my certificates? Or my graduation photos?
Please do. Post a link so everyone can bask in your awesomeness and intellectual brilliance. You certainly bang on enough about it, it’s called small dick syndrome.
Couldn’t care less what you call it. You can be as vulgar as you like but if you support Putin you are a hardline Stalinist.
Ouch, my woke gender neutral feels are hurt. Honestly call me what you like but the reality is for a so called “expert” you seem pretty ignorant of basic facts which brings your so called expertise into serious question. If I was you I would hit up UC for a refund, clearly the failed in their duty of care.
Basic facts according to you. BS to everybody else.
I just know some how that you drive a ute
The fire bombing of Tokyo, which at that time was mostly a wooden built city with the new weapon napalm, killed 100,000 civilians.
The difference between such civilians and those butchered by the Nazis and the Japanese was that the latter did it to civilians after their armed forces had been defeated and were no longer capable of defending them.
By contrast the Japanese civilians, just like the German civilians in Hamburg and Dresden, had militaries to defend them. Similarly nobody on the Allied side ever proposed charging war crimes against the pilots, officers or leaders of the Japanese and Nazi war machines that bombed London, Warsaw and a hundred other cities, killing tens of thousands of civilians.
If you find yourself “giving strength” to the revanchist Japanese nationalists and fascists, right up to the present day, it’s because you’ve bought into their original propaganda arguments against the Allies, and especially against the Western Allies.
You only have to read “ The rape of Nanking” or any memoir of the men who fought on Okinawa or talk to any FEPOW ( if there are any left) to get the reasons why the allies conducted the final stages against Japan as they did.
RIP Fred Lucas
I salute the heroes in Russia who demonstrated against the war. These are the people who deserve better.
I salute the heroes in Ukraine and Poland protesting against the Ukraine Government — These are the people who deserve better…
As David Aaronovitch said in The Times, only the hardline Stalinists support Russia now. So there we have it – Finngrin, Antforce62, Nathan, Stephen. A register of shame. You all would have supported Hitler too.
OMG – The Times, you read, and take seriously that fancy toilet paper Cantabrian…The Times is the mouth piece of the Government….nothing else!
I knew some idiot would say that! I guess you don’t like being called a Stalinist! I read the full range of media. I suggest you subscribe to General SVR on Telegram but it’s in Russian – к сожалению!
Which government Nathan? Have you ever read The Times? I would say not. It’s behind a pay wall.
Bold claim Cantab considering my Father was Dutch and witnessed his best friend get shot by Nazis for stealing bread, and my Aunt died at 11 months from starvation. (Leiden, Netherlands) So yeah toss pot I’m anti Nazi which is why i can recognize Nazis in Ukraine.
And that’s the honest truth my friend.
You on the other hand are so blinded by misinformation and hate you are incapable of being objective.
Well my father was half starved by the Japanese during World War 2 in Shanghai. It shortened his life considerably and he had to flee communism – twice.
Unfortunately though you are naive believing that there a massive amounts of Nazis in Ukraine. There are not! Have you ever met ultra-nationalist Russians? I have and they are just as bad as Nazis and there are lots of them in наши (ours) which is Putin’s fascist movement.
‘Your’. No one cares about Russia enough to attack them. They’re — Putin — just hurt, hurt, hurt, they no longer matter. You’re full of the ‘latest’ nonsense from the vile dictatorship of Russia. If they were a democracy they’d be just like the other 50 countries of Europe — not threatened by anyone. We should have had a full-on Marshall Plan for Russia after communism. We knew that was needed after WW ll but not after the Cold War.
Reading through all these comments those who read and think for themselves become distinct from the others who make mindless abusive comments seeking to discredit them, without logic or evidence.
D J S
Derision is perfectly acceptable D+
Depends on what side you are on David Stone and what you view as logical argument.
The latest revelations from General SVR: the mobilisation is not limited- it is a full mobilisation and not limited to previously serving troops. More deception from the Kremlin. Putin is now hiding in a bunker scared about the reaction of the Russian people to his edict.
Seriously Cantab? I think it’s called delusions of grandeur.
I have a PHD and i have proof!
Show me.
Nah, I’m not going to show you.
You seem desperate for relevance and validation.
Sour grapes finngrinn. I am not going to reveal my identity to you. You’ll have to work it out.
You have to love our lame stream media. Late night dump by Stuff with a anti Russian article and comments closed after one hour.
All war crimes tribunals are show trials. No matter how justified and warranted and proven the charges and evidence brought, by the winning side are.
And that’s the point. War Crimes prosecutions and prosecutors have always come exclusively from the winning side. So have the judges.
The EU have called for a War Crimes Tribunal to begin hearings into allegations of atrocities.
Russia-Ukraine latest updates: EU calls for war crimes tribunal
By Linah Alsaafin and Virginia Pietromarchi
Published On 17 Sep 2022
17 Sep 2022
Both sides in the war in Ukraine have made accusations of war crimes and genocide against the other.
In a break from tradition, What I have suggested in this post, is that prosecutors from both sides in the continuing war in Ukraine be allowed to lay prosecutions and bring evidence of these alleged crimes and set them before the War Crimes Tribunal to be heard and tried.
I also advocate that unlike previous war crimes tribunals that the War Crimes Tribunal be made up of equal numbers of 5 judges from countries on each side of the conflict. Plus one judge from a neutral country.as the Tribunal Chair person, able to cast a vote to break any voting deadlock between the judges. The neutral Judge to be chosen by both sides from a list of agreed neutral countries by ballot of the other judges.
Sounds fair?
I would have thought so and hoped others would too.
From the comments it seems that most don’t want any war crimes Tribunal or trial at all, or want a war crimes Tribunal chosen by their side.
And as for all the crimes committed by the West which have been mentioned more than once in this thread. I as much as anyone would like to see Tony Blair in the dock. Any prosecutor who wants to bring charges against this alleged war criminal to be heard before the Tribunal should be free to do so.
Pat, Can you ever imagine the USA submitting any of their military to a UN based war crimes tribunal? There’s no way ! So why would any other country willingly submit their soldiers to it? They won’t either. A war crimes tribunal will only ever involve the winners bringing retribution to the losers, no winning side is ever going to allow punishment to their saviours whatever they might or might not have been accused of in the hell of war.
Normal human interaction has to be suspended to operate in that environment and there are always some who lose their judgement of what is acceptable in that situation and what is not. but the greatest difficulty will always be in attributing blame. What happened in Bucha for instance; did the Russian soldiers kill some civilians for spite just for fun? Or did the Azovs who came in immediately behind them slaughter people who collaborated with them? It will depend on your view of the nature of the sides involved because we are never going to know.
D J S
David+Stone September 24, 2022 at 9:21 pm
“Pat, Can you ever imagine the USA submitting any of their military to a UN based war crimes tribunal? David Stone
There is no reason why they can’t be tried in absentia.
I expect that most if not all of the alleged perpetrators of war crimes would have to be tried in absentia.
Since the EU is calling for an immediate war crimes tribunal while the conflict in Ukraine is still ongoing, and most of the suspects are still at large,
Detaining these criminals is not the main purpose of such a tribunal.
The main purpose of the tribunal will be to determine the truth and cut through the lies and propaganda. To identify and determine the guilt of those charged in the eyes of the world, with irrefutable evidence.
I imagine that once this is done, that eventually, (even if it takes years), justice will be served.
In the meantime the very fact that you will be found out, may act as a deterrent to the committing of more atrocities now and in the future.
“Finding My Torturer”
“If we kept on living like it didn’t happen, they would think they could do it again.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIussiZ7R_s
These crimes are all committed by real people. Real people with real names with real identities and real faces.
Real names and real faces and real identities of real people that can be linked to real events.
We can’t apprehend or touch them?
We try them in absentia, and get their names and the evidence of their crimes out to the world.
Don’t let them think they can do it again and not be found out.
I would have to agree with you Pat. The Western hypocrisy shows no limits and the unfortunate consequences will likely be M.A.D. Russia it appears has finally reached it breaking point with as Putin said “The empire of lies” get me the fuck off this planet.
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