I can smell the Uranium on your breath – Responding to criticism that Jacinda has gone woke on China

1. Agreed, we walk a fine tight rope and we’re independent. And yet i read some UK publication putting the boot into us. Fuck them, who are the UK anymore anyway?

   • China is the Nazi Germany of the modern age (concentration camps included) and the UK is providing moral guidance just as it did in the past.

     • Who invented concentration camps James Brown? Hint, colonial war circa 1900. Be carful of irony, it’s a harsh task master.

     • “UK is providing moral guidance just as it did in the past”
       Was that during the British-made Bengal Famine? (which Churchill attributed to Indians “breeding like rabbits)
       The seizure of Iran’s oil? (“A prize from fairyland beyond our wildest dreams” – Churchill)
       Gassing indigenous people? (“I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against the uncivilized tribes… it would spread a lively terror.” – Churchill )
       The Partition of Palestine in favour of a minority immigrant population and against the wishes of the indigenous people ?
       The invention of civilian bombing ? – Churchill again.
       Should we ask the Irish ? Check out the Black and Tans whom Churchill called ““gallant and honourable officers”. Personally I prefer W.B. Yeates’ description: “Half-drunk or whole-mad soldiery”.
       The Afghans ? (“We proceeded systematically, village by village, and we destroyed the houses, filled up the wells, blew down the towers, cut down the great shady trees, burned the crops and broke the reservoirs in punitive devastation.” – Churchill)
       The Greeks ? (Athens 1944: Britain’s dirty secret https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/30/athens-1944-britains-dirty-secret )
       The Iraqis ? (“The Arab and Kurd now know what real bombing means within 45 minutes a full-sized village can be practically wiped out, and a third of its inhabitants killed or injured, by four or five machines which offer them no real target, no opportunity for glory as warriors, no effective means of escape”. – Arthur ‘Bomber’ Harris)
       The Boers ? Ignatius has dealt with them above
       The war refugees crammed into Dresden ?

       The World would be a vastly better place without Britain’s “moral guidance” thank you very much.

2. It was Britain’s move into the EU That caused us to look for new markets.
   If the British ever actually get out of the EU we can renew our trading ties with the UK.
   This would mean we did not have all our eggs in one wobbly, Asian basket.
   Ever since the death of Mao China has managed to transfer power from one despot to another without a civil war( leaving aside the purge and arrest of political opponents on trumped up charges).
   Can this go on forever? If one day China collapses into chaos, as it has in the past, we need footholds in other markets.
   Diversification also means China does not have so much economic influence here. Australia’s difficulties with PR China show what happens when you do not give in to the bully.
   Personally I think we should develop a whole new relationship with Taiwan and India if for no other reason than to piss off the Chinese.

   • Stevie can you see any signs of China collapsing into chaos.
     They have been through chaos with war lords ans foreign colonising players including Britain, The USA, Germany and others. China was left a ver poor fragmented nation but has got rid of the outsiders and pulled together a remarkable recovery. The system of governance based on a tiered voting structure is being modified continuously with the stated aim of improving its service to its people.
     Whether anyone accepts that may well depend on their knowledge of China affairs

     But collapse does not seem likely at least until the global store of Non Renewable Natural Resources continues to diminish which will cause a sharp change in industrialisation.
     At present China looks to be the only major nation that is preparing for this.

     Collapse will happen globally in the years not too far away but China will be affected in a different way to most Western nations.

     Australia has given into the bully in its harsh criticism of China reflecting the US led
     demand that it must hold an investigation on the “Wuhan” virus, and bypassing the WHO. The USA has no authority to demand that yet Australia joined with the USA in a political attack on China.
     Offending China is a stupid move.

3. Well the issue is do we go along with agencies that lie profusely about there self generated “foes” or do we do our home work and seek a more research and appraisal surrounding the lies pumped out by the US based news generated.

   Trade is not the basic issue, its one of credibility.
   We complied with the lies from the US/UK leading to the murderous assault on Iraq based on fictitious weapons of mass destruction. Why , because the US embassy just down the road from Parliament has power over NZ politicians .

   That followed the American war on Vietnam when Vietnam had done nothing to the US, and the US were allowed into Vietnam as UN supervisors of national elections which they never did. Instead they sought to conquer Vietnam and had a go at Laos and Cambodia during the years of carnage that Kiwis helped with.

   We should have learned our lesson there when National launched us into that sad and sorry brutal murderous fiasco.

   We have shown independence with several issues and resisted the pressure and threats of the bully boys with their Industrial Military Complex that is right out of control by the US people and steered by billionaire who fill the pockets of congress and others.

   NZ can stand it own ground and they need us as has been shown in the past when we have defied and challenged “the firm” with nuclear testing and nuclear shipping as well as prosecuting french agents and expelling Israeli agents and opposing Israeli treatment of the occupied Palestine albeit that was very low key.

   You may notice the news article linked that puts NZ and Jacinda down is written by a English journo tied in with the defense conglomerate and MI6, so what can you expect and shame on the Telegraph for being so captured by the warmongers.

   Britain cant even protect its people with a covid19 death-rate of close to 1900 per million and climbing rapidly where NZ is stable at just below 5.3 per million.
   So bugger off to the Telegraph pimp and concentrate of your national disaster that was very avoidable.

   • Smug and fact void comment. Little kiwi brain thinks its better than everyone else. Probably a multiple home owner where greed is everything.

     • Interesting name. Suits you. Who even cares who runs things if kiwis own there own capital. Increase fuvking home ownership! And God dam rental rights!!!! Dumb arse.

     • Thank you for the as homenim attention but take time to check out what I have mentioned.
       Your ridiculous assumptions mat reflect where you sit.
       That’s up to you and you are entitled to stray from reality.
       Do you have anything to add to the discussion

4. ‘Stevie can you see any signs of China collapsing into chaos(?)’
   You bet I can.
   ‘got rid of the outsiders and pulled together a remarkable recovery.’ FUCK OFF
   Between 1957 and 1962 millions starved to death during the ‘Great Leap Forward’ In Qinghai, Gansu, Ningxia and Inner Mongolia ethnic Tibetan, Mongol, Muslim peasants successfully resisted grain requisitioning and collectivisation. ( excellent books by Frank Dikotter plus my personal converstions with people in these regions).
   The Great Leap Forward was Mao’s response to leadership challenges just as Jack Ma’s imprisonment is the result of him being an ally of Zhang Zemin rather Xi Jinping.
   Likewise the Cultural Revolution was Mao’s response to the rising popularity of Deng Xiao Ping, Liu Shao Qi and Zhou En Lai. A result of this ten years of chaos was an attempted and failed coup by Lin Biao that came close to plunging China into a full scale civil war. Residents of Shenyang told me of sheltering in their homes as gangs of Red guards fought each other in the street.
   Similarly the whole world knows about Tianammen Square in 1989 but many people do not realsie that similar violence occured in every major Chinese city in that year and it often involved full scale battles between the PLA and local people. PLA troops razed neighbourhoods and PLA soldiers died when petrol bombs and bombs from mining explosives were thrown into their vehicles.
   ‘The system of governance based on a tiered voting structure is being modified continuously with the stated aim of improving its service to its people.’ WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
   Only Communist Party members can vote for offices held by Communist Party members. Regional government can overturn any local election result if they disapprove of the candidates. For Christ sake read the news coming out of Hong Kong.
   “Whether anyone accepts that may well depend on their knowledge of China affairs” Spent fifteen years in China and went there every year before the CCCP fucked up the Wuhan epeidemic.
   ‘Collapse will happen globally in the years not too far away but China will be affected in a different way to most Western nations.’
   Yes right, with a downturn in the economy and loss of popularity Xi may well get a challenge to his leadership with someone with enough support to make a fight of it. Unlike Bo Xilai and his followers they may get the backing of the armed forces that Lin Biao counted on.
   This time full scale civil war between the factions of the Chinese Communist Party( think well about which side you back Mark – I mean John W).
   The bright spot about this is that when this happened before Mongolia, Tibet and Xinjiang could successfully become independent from China.

   Faternal greetings to the oppressed people of China. May the day of liberation be soon

   ‘

   • Stevie
     Thanks for your personal experiences which differ widely to those of my Chinese associates. Of course there are political factions in China or any country and so varying naratives.
     The great Leap forward has been somewhat of a mainstay by Frank Dikotter but his critics point towards a much more likely after math of the perhaps well intentioned instruction to build village level self reliance by introducing iron smelting and other aspects of low tech mechanisation to the neglect i hindsight of fortifying food production more directly.
     A combination of weather events with drought and floods saw deaths on a scale that were significant but Chinese records do not cover this adequately and Frank Dikotter speculation for western audiences are far from the estimation of a possible 13 million population loss over the period for those tragic weather events with lack of preparation and inadequate organisation of food distribution to the effected areas.
     Without the program fostered by the great leap forward there still would have been high numbers of deaths with food shortage, crop failures and drownings with those weather events
     Frank Dikotter and other Western commenters lay the blame on Mao and refer to him as a Murder. Rather than parrot such sentiments then consideration of a wider picture is probably more helpful. During Mao’s role as figurehead of a ruling group, the life expectancy close to doubled as did the population.
     The process of elections has changed over time and refined in more recent times.
     Your suggestion that only CCP members have a part in establishing the structure of govt seems to miss the larger process.

     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_China.

     In NZ the people don’t vote for who is a cabinet minister nor which ministry is headed by whom. Some may say that the system is not democratic but you will have your own judgement on that.

     Some delegation of appointments seem to run in most political systems.

     You mention the “CCCP fucked up the Wuhan epeidemic.” which is a personal judgement I assume.
     The origin of the virus is still under international investigation by scientist but will be inconclusive it seems until all nations cooperate and there are some notable states failing in their control of the virus who have not willingly cooperated with WHO’s investigation to date. Politics and science is a bad mix.

     Reports of traces of the virus in Europe months before being identified in Wuhan have yet to be assessed by WHO. There are many potential paths of the virus traveling and certainly Wuhan does not appear to be the source but is where it was identified. Within 2 to 3 days after formal identification China warned the world and notified WHO.
     China acted quickly and contained the virus.
     The best measure of effective govt action is reflected in the statistics of covid19 deaths per million.
     China dpm sits stable at under 3.5
     NZ dpm stable at just under 5.3
     Taiwan which acted on the first rumour dpm 0.4
     Vietnam dpm 0.36
     USA rising beyond 1350 dpm
     UK rising over 1900 dpm.
     So the contrast is many hundreds of times.
     You may like to speculate why that is.

     You have made no mention of the changes within the Chinese population during your visits. Reputedly 500-700 million have been deemed to have been lifted out of poverty over 4 decades. Friends that have visited reported not seeing homeless in the cities nor beggars.

     A close friend working teaching in Xinjiang for repeated visits, moved freely during his teaching tours, reported some security check due to earlier Uighur terrorism, but otherwise was not obstructed and found nothing of the reported genocide or repression that Western sources claim occurs. He is a Chinese Kiwi and teaches Mandarin and is able to speak much of the Uighur language.

     The collapse I was referring to is one that is widely accepted by those who have an understanding of the graphed trends leading on to 2100 that show Non Renewable Natural Resources becoming exhausted through consumption globally. population overshoot mounting pollution ( including that affecting climate), dwindling food supply projected and other unavoidable consequences.
     China has limited its population as has Vietnam but they stand out as having intelligent management.
     I do read news coming of of Hong Kong and note the role of NED in the organisation of riots.
     Propaganda is alive from the West and China so it can be a time consuming task sorting out the various perspectives and what seems to hold as reliable information. At first glance it looks as though we differ on some aspects but that is the value of discussion.

     • There are many points here one could discuss or dispute but life is short and one’s time and energy should be put into useful endeavours and activities and not pissing into the wind. And, of course, most people who post on these discussion formats will never change their minds just as 99.9% of people. Very few people ever change their minds about anything. Have you ever tried to change someone’s mind about anything? Also, it’s extremely difficult to know truth from fiction, half-faction, and pure malicious lies. So, given all that, I’ll just dispute your statement that many people would have died from starvation during 1958-1962 due to the weather conditions and so forth. Modern research into famines has shown conclusively that famines are created by politics, not nature. In other words famines are politically created and the famine that accompanied the Great Leap Forward was 100% politically created. Have a read of Amartya Sen. In China’s past the imperial authorities would keep storehouses of grain and other supplies for relief in cases of failed crops, floods, insects and whatever. These always worked as long as there was political stability. In the later Qing dynasty and Republican era political stability broke down and several famines occurred. So, your theory concerning the GLF famine simply does not hold up, especially given the political circumstances of the GLF which are too complex to discuss here but with great certainty were the direct cause of the famine. The Government could have alleviated the famine that resulted from the politics of the GLF but chose not to, largely because of Mao.

       • As you say space her is too limited to fully discuss the points and I agree. hence I deliberately refrained from posting the many links covering assessment of research examining the records and information collected near the time. Also perhaps I missed adding some explanation where it may have been needed.
         I do not follow your reasoning that the politics was entirely to blame for the loss of life with famine and drownings.
         Both of these tragic events were often experienced prior to the GLF but on a much smaller scale.
         When crops fail in a subsistence agriculture that is not necessarily the result of political organisation or management.
         Food shortages locally do not get compensated for if the grain is not supplied from elsewhere. That is not a political outcome but an on the ground occurrence.

         The old order with earlier dynasty conservation of grain and other pattern of governance were not in this period. China had been through political turmoil with colonisation from other groups including European, invasion and occupation by Japan, and further turmoil with the US backed fighting with the Kuomintang where significant damage was done to some of the irrigation systems.
         It was a poor country, land was reorganised for peasant use and the communist party taking over governace was bent on changing the efficiency of the agriculture by introducing efforts to establish better mechanisation. Chinese historians recognise the neglect that generated in more traditional care of harvest leaving a vulnerability when crops failed with drought then floods aggravated the low crop yields as well as inundating occupied rural land holdings, villages and dwellings.
         Land management had changed with the communist reorganisation and that was political but also created widespread benefits.
         Yes there was grain stored during some of those years but not enough to solve the starvation although there were many comments about the poor distribution compounding the problem. Hindsight is a great teacher.

         To put all famines down to politics is generalisation that does not hold.

         If crops are destroyed or affected by drought then politics is not the universal cause. Politics can be a factor in cases where the famine was created by direct mismanagement or with-holding of resource. There are many instances of that in global history but politics is not a universal cause of famines.

         “Modern research into famines has shown conclusively that famines are created by politics, not nature.” is an interesting statement that just does not hold true.

         “The Government could have alleviated the famine that resulted from the politics of the GLF but chose not to, largely because of Mao.”

         In all my reading over years I have never come across a Chinese sourced reference of not choosing to alleviate the famine at that time. Your source would be of interest.

         But the deaths over those years were not by famine alone.
         Those deaths are not denied by most Chinese historians but it is the exaggeration of the numbers that have become a political ploy.
         I have watched the claims grow over decades mainly sourced from Western writers.

         I appreciate your comments.

   • The Gang of Four used Mao and the cultural revolution for there own naked grab at power. It was ugly and yes millions died. But have a wee look at the warlord period, or the opium wars, millions more.

   • I don’t necessarily disagree that China could become unstable in the mid-future, but could you supply evidence for your assertion that every major city went through similar situations to Tiananmen? My uncle was living in a provincial capital at that time and he did mention that people did not want to be seen with a foreigner in the immediate aftermath, but nothing about violence. My ex-wife was a child growing up in a different provincial capital, and despite being critical of the government she has mentioned nothing about it. I have lived in 3 major Chinese cities and nobody ever mentioned it to me.

   • My reply seems to have been lost. It happens.

5. ‘Offending China is a stupid move.’
   Never a mistake to take on a bully.

   • Gutless

   • Your user name translating to “Your penis is very small” or alternatively “Your penis is smiling” does not give your comment much gravitas.

6. So protecting the lives of Taiwanese democratic peoples is American imperialism? Get real. Kowtow for cash NZ must now be kicked out of the 5 eyes and fend for itself in any future aggression from Xitler and China. Get the 5 microlite fighter jets ready. I feel sick to the stomach that money has come before the oppressed. Empathy?

   • I feel the same Tory.
     I assume you are referring to the treatment of the Australian Aboriginals.
     Empathy is a start but rebuilding a crushed people whose land has been stolen blatantly for mining and more,will take a lot more than empathy.
     Yes the dollar rules over empathy it seems but the empathy has been missing for over 200 years but not much is said about it.

     And the native people of Formosa fought hard to repel the Kuomintang when they were invaded and occupied late 1949.

     I am unsure of what your reference to “protecting the lives of Taiwanese”. Would I be correct is assuming you are referring a possible armed conflict.
     The proposition as I understand it is one of peaceful reunification being offered and welcomed by a large group in Taiwan. The USA is 11,600 kms away.

7. David Lange in 1989

   I am proud to have served in a government that never went to Washington to grovel , never went to Washington to grovel and where an independent foreign policy still remains.

   • John Key in 2016

     “I am proud to have served in a government that constantly went to Beijing to grovel and where foreign policy was always dictated by naked greed and never by principles.”

     Jacinda Adern in 2021

     “I will wait to see which way the wind is blowing and I’ll sit on the fence in the meantime.”

8. I find completely hypocritical that there was complete outrage at South Africa’s disgusting apartheid regime, yet silence from the same people over a Communist state partaking in suspected genocide.

   Perhaps if we were doing billions in trade with South Africa, the silence would have been just a deafening back in 81?

   • BG do you mean taking part in suspected genocide or taking part in genocide.

     If it is the latter then surely you would need independent evidence rather than accusations, hearsay or popular rumours.

     • All we had was ‘accusations, hearsay and popular rumours’ in Rwanda until we saw the bodies floating down Lake Tanganyika.

       So you think that people are just ‘making it up’?

       • Wha? It was the commonwealth heads of state that first brought sanctions against white South Africa because that was our patch and they where soiling it.

       • Well two different situations,
         Iraq got annihilated with the weapons of mass destruction myth.
         To me its a matter of checking everything and finding hard evidence from reliable sources other wise we can take aboard anything we are told as true.
         There have been several good links on TDB presenting a very different story with hard evidence.
         But look into it yourself. rather than take the headline news.

9. Timing is everything. A 40-year Health System reform. Today a 30 year Local Government Reform. What Next? The Great Rebuild of NZ Infrastructure over the next 40 years?!

   This is sounding more and more like the Chinese Communists Partys Planning Committee at work.

   They haven’t failed since they become a Capitalist State governed by a Communist Party.

10. We’re just a tiny little insignificant country at the bottom of the world. C’mon USA, c’mon UK show us how to do it. Tell China to fuck off by cutting all trade with them. Show us you’re serious. C’mon lead the way.

    You don’t want to? You’re to gutless? And the realisation and the pique would have you kick us in the guts?

    • The USA sent its marines to bases in NZ during the Pacific phase of WWII. NZ people were grateful to have a US presence here although our young boys were often angry at the glamour and trinkets given out to win the hearts and more from our young ladies. A fight broke out over this strong feeling but I leave you to research that.
      NZ took in the injured marines with its special hospitals set up for the task, repaired and rebuilt vehicles used in the Islands when fighting the Japanese and provided much needed fresh food to keep the Marines going.

      Was the US here to protect us or was NZ a convenient base for operations. It certainly was at least the latter without doubt.

      But in WWI Japan was our ally with Japanese warships escorting the NZ troops to the theatre of war.
      You may well ask what went wrong with the relationship change from friend to foe.
      None of the spoils of WWI went to Japan. NZ got Western Samoa and many plots overseas with Kiwi bones, widespread grief and ANZAC day.

11. Naaaa. Don’t worry about it.
    Ya see, when the world’s largest naval force turns up on our doorstep and demands all property be handed over (without any complexities of that pesky Waitangi BS), Nanaia will just call up her taniwha to brush them aside. Kind of like our very own version of Godzilla.
    But more real.

12. But hang on a minute…? We [non Chinese] are just as to blame. Perhaps more so. Have you not noticed history? It’s a thing that happened and is full of stuff and things. ( E&OE but not necessarily in this instance. )
    I’ve been fucked without the kissing. My family’s been rooted and rorted and I’m so obsessed by that, that my mind’s contorted. I’m writing a fucking book about it, how about that? But who writes books these days when the general public has a shorter attention span than a Gerbil on P with nothing to do but watch TV. That rhymed by the way. FYI. If you missed it though, don’t blame me but better yet? Don’t blame yourself.
    And none of them were Chinese people I’d go so far as to write. In fact, the Chinese people whom I know and have met previously are a bit lovely. My enemies are whites like me. The greasy, grab handers. The pleased ta meetchas. The snake eye beer swilling sneaks and leeches. (No disrespect to actual leeches.) The she’ll be righters, the gimme your phone numberers and I’ll call you right back tonighters. You know the ones? The bull shitters, the braggers, the you got it righters, the sweet as’ers, the pan handlers. The scammers , liars and the dodgy hand -grabbers ( I’m on a roll. I’m also a bit pissed. Apols xx)
    When someone’s trying to convince you that the them over there’ers are the enemy then they’re likely not and in fact it is they , the pointers themselves who are themselvesers. That’s the nature of the money fuckers agendas. They’ll use you and you and you to get what they want which is always more and more and more and more and more and more and more and more………. It could be called the Mike Hoskings syndrome. Sorry. Nothing to rhyme with that, that I can think of. Except he’s a wanker. Does that rhyme? Let’s assume it does. Assumptions. The mother/father of all fuck-ups.

    • Judging countries on news items heard is indeed lacking in understanding how things work.
      Judge a country on how it looks after its people without hurting others.
      Covid19 figures are remarkable at cutting through the bullshit.
      Deaths per million figures tell a lot. Civid19 has been a testing time.
      Vietnam- Deaths per million with Covid 19 0.36
      Taiwan – DPM 0.4
      China- DPM 3.47
      NZ – DPM 5.29
      Australia DPM 36
      USA- DPM 1730
      UK – DPM 1900.
      There are crooks in every nation but most people decent.
      The problem arise when you get crooks in Govt or steering the govt.
      Wars are not started by decent people.

13. ” We’re just a tiny little insignificant country at the bottom of the world ”
    Yeah Peter but we stood up to the fucking yanks and told them where to stick their nukes… up Reagan’s arse.
    We have forgotten in the fog of capitalism and that everything that moves must have a $ sign attached that we are still at the bottom of the world and that the fire of patriotism still burns with the ” team of 5 million ” and the the death defying antics of the rugby team i just can’t remember what their name is ?

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