NewsHub Leaders Debate: Patrick Gower won and Judith Collins lost!


The winner of the Leaders Debate is Paddy Gower – such insightful, hard, interesting & well researched questions – it was a GREAT genuine battle of ideas because of his skills as a broadcaster – standing ovation Paddy, what a remarkable piece of democratic service you crafted.

This was excellent broadcasting.

Compare the genuine insight managed here to the horror show that was Trump vs Biden.

Congratulations to Mediaworks, this beats everything else so far.

To the debate.

TDB Recommends

Jacinda Ardern came to fight and she did.

She punched, jabbed and pushed Judith around the studio.

Judith spluttered, bumbled around and got genuinely angry a couple of times.

Jacinda was assertive without being rude, and she worked the actual vision NZers are demanding to hear.

Where are we going with a closed border?

How does tourism that was servicing 4million per year now going to serve a fraction of that?

Same thing with migrant workers and international tourists. The junk cheap economy we created around exploitation have all evaporated, Jacinda talked about pricing in our Covid Free status and it was the first time anyone has actually acknowledged that’s our advantage.

The issue of tax cuts when so much needs to be spent by the State seemed juvenile as a response by Judith.

Jacinda reminds everyone that every country has taken on debt and that we are in a far better place than everyone else.

When Judith starts losing the debate she starts interrupting and reminding everyone how mercenary she is.

It didn’t come across as tough, it came across like being a dick.

Judith was a bit of a dick, she knew this was a different gear Jacinda she was facing and it showed.

National’s insane decision to push ahead with removing the right to silence is just bullshit. You don’t throw out a 500 year legal right just because Judith is in a shitty mood.

Jacinda’s lack of leadership on cannabis is woeful.

Judith’s lack of leadership on everything else is slightly more woeful.

Both looked bad on the lack of Pharmac funding for drugs that really do need to be funded to alleviate the terrible suffering those kiwis are going through.

Judith seems to think that not eating meat is communist???

I know.

I know.

Gower hounded Judith on her climate denial roll backs on all environmental regulations. It was good.

Judith defended Trump! Unbelievable.

Judith was no slouch, but Jacinda’s improvement had her head and shoulders over the Crusher.

Jacinda showed she could take a punch AND throw a punch. Judith was solid, but her jaw looked glass a few times.

Jacinda was the Statesman, Judith was the State.

Great debate.


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  1. You have a higher opinion of Gower than I do after watching the debate although I tend to agree with your reasons for praising him. I got the impression he favored Collins at times but that could just be my bias.

      • Judith is the epitome of all the worst matronly disciplinarian headmistresses from victorian times, rolled into one. Her snide remarks, grizzly stare, burger farts, buffalo breath muldoonian smirk, cackle like a constipated hyena, below the belt jibes and passive aggressive put downs, such as “silly little sausage” or “poor wee thing” or “yes dear”, belie her real thought patterns bubbling just under the surface, of a narcissistic bully who spits venom, while getting her way. A silk purse fashioned from a sows anus.

        Used to assumed privilege, with spoils handed to her on a plate, or deposited into her trust accounts, as if she were a Trumpian Caesar, and the Roman empire hadn’t fallen.
        No wonder the movers and shakers in National, who knew of her true nature, fought tooth and nail to stymie her, knowing that once she got a sniff of power, there’d be no going back. She would seize upon it like a born to rule Emperor, crushing resistance, and never relinquishing her grip, short of a wooden stake being driven through her heart.
        During National’s leadership dithering, the National movers and shakers holding out against her, would be systematically identified, white anted, undermined, sidelined, disreputed, demoralised, decapitated, and disposed of. Until Judith, the dirty politics dark arts high priestess of the worst order, was the last one standing. The last cab off the rank, having timed her moves to perfection, at a time when National was going down the gurgler, flailing around for anything to turn the tide.

        Unfortunately for those still with an ounce of decency in National, Judith’s rule was now foisted upon them, and those good ones left were too few, and too weakened and weary to resist, capitulating to her domination. An iron fist in an iron fist, hanging over their caucus, like a sword of Damocles in the house of Slytherin, ready to dispatch any challengers, at Judith’s whim. Crusher by name, crusher by nature, she’d employed her myriad dirty tricks to get to the top, but now demanded complete subservience. With any hint of dissent, being met with disembowelment first, and asking questions later.
        Even replacing the carpet in her office, with a red one, to match the bloodletting, where she slowly breaks the fingers of any last resistance,,, would hardly be a surprise. Judith, the bottom dwelling, fire breathing, political non specific deposit feeder, marinated in vitriol, and forged in Dantes inferno, now feasting upon the decaying carcass of all that was once decent in National. Truly, the winter of discontent had descended, with purges awaiting just around the corner.

        The last remnants of National’s once mighty band of bellicose movers and shakers, were now just bedraggled hollow shells of their former selves, gathered around a table at the Parliamentary Chestnut Tree Cafe, sipping clove flavored gin, while an unbidden waiter refreshes their drinks. The furrow browed and scarred weatherbeaten old hands of Woodhouse, Bridges, McClay, Macindoe etc, seated grimly together. A gin scented tear rolling unnoticed down Bridge’s cheek. Now doomed to extinction, these last great figures left over from the heroic days of the party. At one time, they may have been immensely strong, but now their bodies were sagging, sloping, bulging, falling away in every direction. They seemed to be breaking up before one’s very eyes, like a mountain crumbling, fading.

        The movers and shakers looked at each other, not stirring, not needing to say anything, but knowing what they all knew,
        and anything else was an abomination
        to be excised from the consciousness.
        Indeed, how could they have not realised all along.
        Oh cruel needless misunderstanding.
        Oh stubborn self willed exile
        from the loving breast.
        They loved big Judith.

    • I agree with you. I didn’t intend to watch it but it was on in the room I was in, so I had to.

      My comment at the time was that it was appalling that Gower allowed Collins to interrupt and babble on when Adern was speaking. That is not a debate; it’s a bar brawl; it’s road rage; it’s neighbours arguing over a fence.

      Anyone with a brain knows that economic growth is at the heart of most of our predicaments; what do Adern and Collins both say is the answer to our woes? -economic growth!

      So it all ends up the usual bullshit, with slightly less bizarre policies being offered by Lablour when compared to National’s completely off-the-planet narratives.

      As expected, there was NOT ONE WORD about the REAL state of the economy or the planet and just a whole lot of nonsense geared to pretending politicians know what they are doing.

      In the real world, every day that passes represents one step closer to the economic and environmental meltdown neither candidate acknowledges.

      ‘If way to the better there be, it exacts a full look at the worst.’ -Thomas Hardy

      What we got was a puppet show geared to the gross misconceptions of urbanites, and geared to some kind of tweaked version of BAU -when BAU was effectively over months ago and is not coming back.

      Final Q2 GDP Revision Shows US Economy Shrank -31.4%’

      In fact it gets a lot worse from here on, and nothing the so-called leaders have said inspires any confidence.

      • I agree with you Afewknowthetruth, – with the constant babble from Collins was similar to the Trump/Biden debate and it appears that Collins repeatedly followed the path taken in the ‘US deadbeat debate.’

        We have to remember that Collins is just a scrapper not a thoughtful politician and is just keeping the seat warm for Chris Luxton to take over so the corporate world can take over NZ.

      • Don’t forget National abolished the State of the Environment report in 2012.
        Facts get in the way of their agenda.
        In fact they falsified all stats, from CPI to crime.
        Perhaps we should be investigating why the Dept of Stats building collapsed during a mild earthquake.
        911 all over

    • ” I got the impression he favored Collins at times but that could just be my bias ”
      No that was not an impression that is fact. In fact one could surmise that Collins being so far behind in the party vote Gower and Media Works will skew anything to ensure National climb in support even if they have to drag them up themselves. I gave up half way through when like Campbell Gotcha would like Collins not allow the PM to be heard or respond to an accusation or put an argument. Desperate for Collins to be popular she got another free run.

  2. I thought the Pharmac questions were unanswerable with the only right answer being the funding pool is bottomless, which its not. Pointless gotcha questions that neither had any hope of getting right because a blank cheque is a lie.

    Worst question of the night for Jacinda, is Phil Twyford a liability? Poor, poor Jacinda. What mortal sin did she commit to have so much uselessness foisted upon her in one suited package.

    Judith. Repealing clean water legislation. Promoting open sewers is only popular at a rat conference hosted by card carrying union backed sewer rats. And dear god, she mumbled and wanted to tear her skin off admitting teaching te reo in schools should be compulsory.

    Otherwise actually quite bearable and not too bad from Gower.

  3. Gower was excellent. Hard but fair and didn’t favour either side. A points decision in a boxing match – who won will depend on what tribe you are on. Wouldn’t of moved the converted on either side. Both were good, neither were brilliant.

    Some gaffes:
    Judith on Trump, Maori and taxes
    Jacinda ewok villages, Winston and houses

    Both were weak on pharmac, covid19 plan B and economic development but then again centralist parties are never courageous.

    The real trick will be what (if you believe the CB poll) the undecided will vote. Perhaps Act – Seymour got a lot of airtime. Like the naughty uncle that you kids learn their swear words off.

    My prediction Is that it wouldn’t have moved the landscape much. Judith has stopped the rot but hasn’t got back the ‘Karens’ yet. Without them game over.

    • Nothing wrong with Ewok villages, or schools. They’re probably an endangered species. Just have to watch out for some feral Greenies calling them ‘introduced’ and trying to cull them!!

  4. Don’t want to be mean, but i saw nothing to indicate that Judith understands the value added gains to the advancement of woman’s rights both socially and economically in this country.

    A female Viktor Orbán is not progress guys. The less we have to extol our greatness here in aotearoa NZ, and the more we just ‘be’ our greatness here in aotearoa NZ instead, the more time is on ourside for sustainability.

    i can’t take any more of these debates talkathons, too much middle men syndrome sapping the vitality out of political spectrums that should be more complimentary in attaining achievements. To be fair, i do think Judith has more barriers to overcome in being able to contribute her voice because of such like but power to Jacinda all the same. We do need advancement on this front for all for here though, imo.

  5. Sadly the aftermatch (hopefully not viewed by too many) was not as inspiring with Tova O’Brien et al scoring it a win for Crusher.
    One pundit even suggested that Collins provided clearer policy detail than Jacinda.
    Collins fumbled, mumbled, and bumbled her way through while Jacinda showed much greater poise and command of the moment.
    If this was a boxing match it would be a unanimous decision . . . The undisputed champ is still reigning undisputed.
    We will see on October 17.

  6. And yet both the Newshub and NZHerald polls have Collins winning by a large margin. Collins was deemed the winner by the debate after show panel also. With the ever present Josie Pagani choosing Collins. Wake up to reality Martyn, Collins is entering these debates very well prepared.

    • MickeyBoyle,

      You can’t be serious. That’s like saying Mike Hosking and Kate Hawkesby felt Collins won so that must be the result. Clearly, you haven’t been paying attention.

      • The debate was truth-fully won by Paddy and Jacinda.

        Jacinda showed she can mix with the ‘bully Collins’ in a bar crawl that is Collins ‘only tool that she uses’.
        Jacinda stepped up admirably and won the night.
        She enhanced my mind of who to choose to vote for last night.
        ‘Go Jacinda’.

      • Both polls showed that the public deemed Collins the clear winner. That isnt fake news, its fact. Sorry if that triggers you…

        • When the whole thing was skewed like the first debate in her favour what do you expect. And the endless commentary from the MSM about how well Collins did repeated ad nauseam was bound to have an effect. The sleepy hobbits still fall for the same old propaganda.

    • I remember Josie. Pagani being a panelist when labour was electing a new leader, candidates being Grant R, David C and Shane Jones. Paganis pick was Jones. Says everything about her judgement

      • Pagani’s sole reason for being seems to be to kneecap Labour. I mean, whenever she’s asked for an opinion it seems to be a variation on “Labour are crap! They’re terrible! Boo! Sucks! We hatesss them, Preciousss!” Talk about holding a grudge. She’s great if you just want to give the impression of balance, without any actual balance.

  7. Jacinda was clearly the winner and Collins was a trainwreck and exposed as a snowflake
    I don’t know what Tova was smokin….to think that. 🙂
    Two of the three commentators only declared a narrow win for Collins because they are afraid to lose future paid work being in the PR business –im guessing?

    • Brian Tregaskin,

      Agree with you Brian.

      Ardern was asked about her plan to grow the NZ economy. Virtually impossible to give a meaningful response in format they ran with but Ardern’s response was perfect. Trade in NZ’s good name. We have tens of thousands of people wanting to return to NZ or invest here. Why? Because of NZ’s good name so it makes perfect sense to cash in on that aspect. Impossible to come up with a better answer especially with the time restraint’s in play.

      Remarkably, the two females who awarded the debate to Collins ridiculed that Ardern response. VERY telling.

  8. This was certainly a step up from the first debate.
    Paddy is quick and unpredictable and that’s what makes his line of questioning spontaneous and keeps the politicians on their toes. I have to admit the answer that made me laugh the most was Judith saying Twyford was her asset and Jacinda’s liability.

    • Paddy in my view was no different from all the other mainstream journalist we have in our country, self serving Know it all prats. And lets be honest he (Gower) had the benefit of hindsight. I am sure Campbell would have changed his format after all the negative feedback he got. Now we have one more to tolerate.

      • The two are totally different. Not saying one is better or worse. I just found Campbell slowed things down too much with his own meanderings. I don’t think there was any hindsight, Paddy was just being Paddy and after the slow meanderings of the 1st debate it couldn’t help but feel more up tempo.

        Other than entertainment I don’t really believe there was a lot of benefit from the two leader format. Their responses are decades predictable on the big issues, (housing/poverty/tax reform). I would like to see more minor party involvement, which would show how lacking and gutless, (and self serving) the two main parties are in NOT addressing the major issues seriously. I would like to see them challenged far more.

        This for me is the most disappointing aspect.

  9. I don’t rate Paddy Gower, but geez !! .. he did a fantastic job !!

    Great questions, good pace .. just excellent. Well done Paddy, you were AWESOME.

    Judith came off really well

  10. Most depressing was that all three of them, Paddy, Jacinda and Judith (of course) seem to see the problem of poverty, of entrenched poverty in Aotearoa, as a problem “too hard to solve”. What a disgusting cop out!!! On all their parts. Ditch the poorest, just give up on them, cement them over with a two tier system (never questioned by Paddy) …Just bury them alive and forget that they ever existed.

    Is this what we have become in Aotearoa NZ?

    Again, the Greens do have a plan to address this. They and they alone have not given up on the option of lifting all Kiwis out of the extremes of poverty and despair in which too many are living.

    • “of entrenched poverty in Aotearoa, as a problem “too hard to solve”. What a disgusting cop out!!!”
      Yes Kheala it’s worth a lot more attention than it’s getting. As we all know this goes back to the core of Neo Liberalism. All these political parties will not admit that the Neo Liberal economy has caused all this poverty.
      To admit that would open a really big can of worms, that none of them want to deal with, except the Greens.
      Again I say this is due to the bloody boomers stance on BAU and keeping there property portfolios going, and these politicians are too gutless to take them on.

  11. If Aotearoa NZ was where it should be, now in the third decade of the 21st Century, the third millennium, then every single party that was standing for election would be required to submit their own plan to address
    a) poverty and the extremes of inequality in our country, and
    b) our changing climate with its devastating consequences already on us.

    Until we reach that point we are on the back foot in terms of dealing with all that is ahead of us.

    • LOL. That would require:
      a). Our 2 centrist parties to think about something other than maintaining or winning power
      b). Courage from either of the parties

      There is more chance of me going on a date with Jacinda (and my wife allowing it!)

      That said 100% agree with your first point – the most pressing issue of our time whereas the other issue does need to be attacked on the methodical, technological basis so agree with the sentiment.

  12. Imagine Collins in diplomatic talks with other world leaders. Interjecting. Sniggering. Lying. Threatening.
    Imagine Collins in coalition talks with other parties. Interjecting. Sniggering. Lying. Threatening.
    Imagine Collins trying to run a Cabinet. Interjecting. Sniggering. Lying. Threatening.

    She has done a superb job reinforcing all the reasons why #NationalNotFitToGovern.

    Add to that a Finance spokesperson with an $8 billion problem, multiple former leaders and factions, a deputy leader that belongs in Billy TK’s joke party, and fit-for-21st-Century policies like building some uncosted roads, and I really wonder if their supporters have already started celebrating a win for the cannabis referendum.

  13. Entertaining but utterly pointless “debate” in my not so humble opinion. In order that the event have some appropriate relevance, they either need to change the format or change the name from debate to “view the leaders”.

    If it’s going to be a debate then there needs to be an actual debate, not a farce.

    There are more pressing issues confronting NZ now than at any time since WWII. The questions are big so the answers also need to be big. Time constraints, incessant interrupting and fairly weak moderating by Gower turned the important event into nothing more than entertainment which seemed to be the goal.

    How can anyone give anything other than a perfunctory response to such huge questions in such a short time frame? Collins is fully aware of this so interrupts Ardern at every opportunity. Ardern doesn’t even get to finish her sentence and Gower stands there and lets that happen? Even after Collins as hijacked Ardern’s answer time, Gower does not even bother to go back to her after Collins as finished the hijack. WTAF?

    My suggestion to have an actual meaningful debate. Each party leader is given 2 uninterrupted minutes to answer the question. If the other leader interrupts, they are immediately docked 30 seconds off their time to speak. If they interrupt 4 times or for a total of 30 seconds+ they completely lose the right to give their perspective.

    Ardern was busy making a very relevant point exposing the hypocrisy of Collins and Collins knew this so just talked louder over the top of Ardern. The most nauseating aspect of this is that many eggspurts consider this sort of deliberate tactic to be a show of strength by Collins. Try doing that shit in an important meeting with a PM or President of another country.

    I found Collins again to be openly disrespectful and condescending toward Ardern. How can anyone view this as a positive personality trait of a person wanting to lead NZ and set an example of decency and leadership to it’s people?

    The choice is coming down to kind, trusted, inclusive leadership…..or nasty, untrustworthy divisive leadership. What sort of country do you want for yourself, your children and your grandchildren?

    Collins seeking the sympathy vote for her ill brother in law with stage 4 cancer was poor form. Collins even felt compelled to mention the news was broken to the man via phone because of the lockdown. This gave you a window into Collins perspective on the lockdowns. Otherwise, why even mention that aspect? People get Cancer diagnosis every day and that situation just continues on during a pandemic. It’s tragic that treatments are delayed due to the bigger picture which is a situation that confronted my own family and many others but that’s what we are dealing with. It’s not Ardern or the Government’s fault. It’s the result of a deadly virus. 798 of Australia’s 886 Covid deaths happened in Victoria. Many of those deaths occurred in a 3 week period from the 12th August. 41 deaths on the 31st August and 59 on the 4th September were just two days. That could so easily have been the diabolical situation here. Some of the high prices paid to avoid that carnage were delayed cancer treatments and people unable to be with their loved ones just prior to those loved ones passing away. A tragic and VERY distressing situation. I sincerely believe Collins used that sad family situation to seek sympathy support.

    Three days prior to the 2017 election day, Ardern’s grandmother passed away so never got to see her treasured granddaughter become the PM. This was one of the many challenges Ardern was confronted with at that time which she carried around on the inside. I was astonished to read so many scathing hateful comments against Ardern made by National Party supporters at that time. The most common statement was that Ardern was the sort of lowlife scum who would attempt to use the death to gain sympathy votes. I found that confronting and most definitely not the divisive NZ that I grew up in and want to leave behind.

    I believe Ardern easily won the “view the leaders evening” in the first moments of it. The Christmas Eve Covid hypothetical scenario was a knockout victory for Ardern. Her response was there was no need for her to be hypothetical. She also highlighted just how dangerous the perspective of Collins was on Covid and her huge gaps of knowledge on the all important topic. Everything after that was perfunctory nonsense.

    The three women interviewed by Tova O’Brien were “interesting”.

    Mihingarangi Forbes was her usual thoughtful measured self. She called the “debate” a draw.

    The other two gave mind-numbing justifications for gifting the result remarkably in favour of Collins. None of the three saw it as a victory for Ardern. What a pointless farce that is in no way reflective of how NZ viewed the evening or even the people attending the “debate”. When they applauded Ardern it was loud. When Collins was applauded, it invariably sounded like only one or two people.

    Unsure what was going on with Tova O’Brien but she seemed to have overdosed on happy juice. She was virtually unrecognizable and in no way reflective of the spiteful gotcha alleged journalist who had attacked and ridiculed Ardern all through the first lockdown exactly like she was running interference against the Government on behalf of the National Party. Vindictive scalp hunting crusades were her full time hobby.

    If you want to see her bias on show, just look at her one on one with the two leaders.

    First was Ardern. A couple of quick perfunctory questions and then thanks for coming. Then came Collins. She had over twice as long as Ardern. Was afforded the opportunity to cover most aspects of her previous comments all the while to O’Brien vigorously nodding her head with approval at everything Collins said. FFS

    I scored it.

    Ardern 7.
    Collins 2.
    Gower 4.
    O’Brien 1.
    Format 0.

    My scoring of the previous farcical TVNZ evening with the leaders was,

    Ardern 3
    Collins 0
    Campbell 0
    Format 0.

    • I would like to see a Maori journalist doing the last debate, why? cause I want to see Judeath grovel and her fangs come out like they always do when it comes to Maori issues. She might have a Samoan Chinese husband but its no secret she and many of her base supporter hate our Maori people.

    • JF, yours is just a subjective score, but then, you are a Jacinda fan after all.
      I on the other hand did a definitive, scientific, independent and totally neutral assessment and I scored it, out of 10:

      Collins 11.
      Ardern 0.
      Gower 5.
      O’Brien 5.
      Format 5.

    • Thanks Jacindafen
      That was very thoughtful indeed so we should follow your plan to change the “leaders debates from now on, to select a better moderation, as Collins is just a ‘diversion’ at any serious meeting to discuss our ‘collective well being futures’.

    • I’m starting to think if Jacinda ordered you to drink Jim Jones’ happy juice you would willingly. On balance it was a draw where both were good, not brilliant but good. O’Brien was at least 8.5/10 probably higher and that comes from someone who thinks he is bipolar snivelling weasel. The format was great none of those BS opening/closing statements, the questions well researched on the whole and an even hand to both sides.

      • Frank the Tank,

        Up until Ardern, I was in the camp of “don’t vote, it only encourages them”.

        I make no secret of the fact I respect Ardern’s qualities. Her arrival at the top was desperately needed by NZ. If you underfund basic infrastructure and then gift our country to the Chinese so you appear to have a “rock star economy” end up with what Paddy shot at. If you teach the population that the only thing that matters is money and selfish creed, you end up with a country very few of us would actually want.

        My support for Ardern is not unconditional. I’ve been highly critical of her at times. The most notable when she cut Shane Jones off at the knees when she caved in to Indian threats that arranged marriages (an important aspect of immigration fraud) be treated exactly the same as traditional western marriages. Ardern undermined her coalition partner and western marriages just to appease Indian threats.

        I don’t see how anyone with a brain bigger than a sultana would think the format for these farcical debates was positive and helpful. It’s absolutely fucking useless…..unless you enjoy pointless charades.

        Agree on nauseating opening speeches but disagree on closing statements. They are a perfect opportunity to see sincerity and desperation all rolled into 30 seconds.

        Your rating of O’Brien is perplexing but then again, you’re Frank The Tank who has a well-earned reputation for talking total shite.

        • That was almost complementary until you went full Trump in your last sentence.
          I’ll take that as i’m growing on you.

    • Yes there should be an old car battery and some alligator clips hooked up to the the old Crusher. When it can’t control it’s mouth a little jolt is sent to unseen parts of it’s anatomy to remind the old hag that there are rules to follow and manners are expected of ministerial candidates.

    • @Jacindafan – yet again, you provide a superb analysis of the issue, this time the leaders debate which I sat through. Interesting and insightful comment you make about the media – Tova O’Brien. To expand on that in agreement with you I won my bet with my flat-mates that the Herald so-called analytical commentators (read right-wing marketing arm of the National Party and haters of Jacinda Adern) would report that Collins was the winner. Two of them did (Audrey Young and Claire Trevett, which is to be expected from these two Labour/Jacinda trolls) and two gave draws (Simon Wilson and Fran O’Sullivan). None of them put Jacinda as the winner which she clearly was.

      What these white older boring commentators forget is that they, like the National party, do not really appeal to mainstream younger people who favour Jacinda. They do not care to listen to these commentators because they see their so-called analysis for what it is – an attempt to persuade the already converted to vote National by arguing that somehow National under Collins should be preferred for stability. What a joke that is. National stands for dirty politics and propping up the self-entitled who have never had to face adversity or to work hard in their lives.

      Like me, younger people do believe Jacinda is working hard to bring the economy back on track but we also see environmental issues, climate change, poverty etc as issues which she is aware of and addressing, not like National or their media supporters who see these issues as either non-issues (climate change) or affecting only the poor (poverty) for whom they have no regard.

      Back to you Jacindafan – thank you again. I don’t have the insight or experience that you have but align with your views except your scoring for the first TVNZ debate. I would put Ardern at 4, not 3.

      • youngsuffrajet,

        Thank you for your kind words. I appreciate them.

        How refreshing would it be to have a debate on a level playing field and have the judgments of vested interest cheerleaders seen for what they are? I recall a leaders debate in 2017 between the Dipton Double Dipper Bill English and Jacinda Ardern. I didn’t dislike Bill but he was the quintessential beancounter and the perfect cure for insomnia. Jacinda ran rings around him. He just sat there looking bewildered and totally out of his depth. All he could do was flick a switch on every 90 seconds saying the words “strong stable Government”. He didn’t look at the camera at any time until he gave his farcical closing speech where he again parroted on about a strong stable Government. Jacinda looked straight into the camera at every opportunity. Despite the debate being chaired by the vomit-inducing Mike Hosking, it was an emphatic knockout victory to Jacinda. I’ve watched dozens of leaders debates over the years starting with the Lange / Muldoon debates and have never seen such a one-sided victory as the Ardern / English debate. I looked at media reports the following day absolutely astonished to see every commentator describe the debate as a win to English. WTAF. These media commentators etc are all the usual suspects who called last night’s farce as a victory to the despicable Collins. Why would we expect any different?

        It’s clear now that New Zealanders are in the process of being sold the enormous festering turd of Judith Collins as if it’s your mum’s homemade Apple Pie. We all know who’s doing the selling.

        Come October 17th they will have confirmation that their insult to kiwis has been an epic fail. Collins and the divisive and untrustworthy National Party will be on their way to the nearest landfill. Only then will the charade of these debates and alleged results be exposed. Future leader’s debates will need to be run and judged differently if they are to have any legitimacy and credibility.

        Doesn’t it make you feel just a little unwell when you see the beneficiary bashing National Party pretend they care about those doing it hard? All people at the lower end of the scale are National’s despised feral enemy but now of course, they suddenly care. Another $2 Shop Rolex.

        As we remember, National showed complete indifference to the rapidly growing number of kiwis living in poverty during their excruciating 9 years at the wheel. The usual narrative was to blame those doing it hard for being in that position. They were apparently spending all their money at the Casino and pub. Nothing whatsoever to do with high rents of course. Then remarkably, Bill English discovered child poverty 10 days out from the election. What he actually discovered was the positive traction Jacinda was gaining by wanting to look after all Kiwis, not just the ones doing well.

        Collins bullshit about attacking gangs was also nauseating and yet another reminder of their dog-whistling Taskforce Raptor. They have no far king idea. Gangs / motorcycle clubs were rapidly increasing under National’s watch but they did SFA about it. Couple that with Australia’s decision to deport so many Australian bikers to NZ resulted in even more growth of that culture.

        I’ve met Sonny Fatupaito. Solid guy doing the right thing by his Kingdom Chapter of the Mob. Here’s a guy wanting to steer young people in the right direction. He offered to meet Slime-on Bridges to participate in a Mana Whanau event in November last year. Bridges scoffed at it. How can we make progress when we show absolute contempt toward those wanting to help others get on the right track? Great opportunity missed.

        Yet again, the names of young Maori children killed by whanau are trotted out during leaders debates but what exactly did National do about it during their 9 years? Pretty much the same as what they did with all the run-down hospitals they now suddenly care about. No wonder so many people are cynical about the caring National Party.

        As for the first debate. We fully agree youngsuffrajet on the fact Collins got a well deserved zero.

  14. I think Jacinda won. Especially when she declared Phil Phil Twyford an asset and gave a clear answer on the cannabis issue. As always she was not vague and didn’t sit on a fence. Good to see a politician who tells us upfront what the intentions are.

    • Herman we don’t buy that picture.

      Phil Twyford is an asset now as our transport minister as he is clearly restoring the funding of our regional rail system through changes made in the Land Transport fund so complete rail infrastructure can be made unlike the National Party’s pet policy with years of “deferred maintenance” (robbing of funds) for ‘National’s holiday highways model”.

      Phil is truly doing the right thing for security of our rail services future.

      • Please – if he was that good why are Labour hiding him a round room with Kelvin and asking them to find a corner.

        The problem with rail is unless you are willing to spend 30 billion + and/or import 5 million additional people into the country it’s a nice thought but nothing else. Our rail gauge is to narrow to properly cart freight nor has the inland port facilities and major passenger rail in our major cities would be dependent on purchases vast swathes of private land or tunnelling underground.

        Want someone to blame – best to look at the person that decided the rail gauge way back when. Probably Twyford’s long lost great great grandfather…….

        • You can have Phil Twyford and I’ll raise you Nick Smith, I’ll also throw in Maureen Pugh because as an ex national leader once said, “she’s fucking useless”

          • bert,

            About the only thing Simon Bridges got right. Bit sad when your own leader gives a review like that. Nick Smith on the other hand found a playground that he could whine about the costs involved. What a guy and what a contribution. Both are about as appealing as the smell of boiled cabbage when it’s been left in a pot with the lid on for ten days.

          • Bertie we have had this conversation before – Kelvin Davis, Davey Clark, Nania Mahuta, Greg O’Connor, Carmel Sepiloni, Jenny from the Block etc. Im sure you have a similar list – lets just admit the overall parliamentary talent pool is as shallow as a puddle in downtown Alice Springs.

  15. I see judeath said she is learning Te Reo, bullshit! she can’t even bring herself to day kia ora, she is telling more lies the old bag. As for her acting like she cares about Samoan people again her policies say the opposite with a $8 tax increase and no compulsory heating/insulation in homes so who will this policy impact on the most. I believe the very people she is pretending to care about.
    And when judeath did her sympathy act by saying her brother in law got a call about his cancer services being cancelled due to covid, well our Maori people were getting phone calls to tell them there cancer diagnosis when national was cutting public services for 9 long tedious years.

  16. 1.Paddy let himself down badly with the Phil Twyford question. The relentless bullying of Phil is appalling and I was disappointed Jacinda didn’t stand up for him.
    2.The debate was bloody depressing because it highlighted what deep shit we are in everywhere we look. The only hope we have is scrapping the RMA? And as Kheala asks is there is no hope for those in poverty? You know it must be really bad when even Jacinda has given up.
    3. David Parker says that apple stickers are really annoying but bloody hell a lot of people cant even afford the sticker let alone the apple.
    4. I suspect we may have reached an economic tipping point at which stage there is no way back? Same with the environment and rivers?
    There is a glimmer of hope for me though and that lies with our young people. Wow there is some talent there. We should hand over the reins because those affected most need to make the decisions.

  17. Judith said her “I cannot think of an answer immediately’ fill-in phrases as follows:
    “By the way” – 4 times
    “You know what?” (or variations of the same) – 14 times
    … and she told us three times that “I am a Christian”.

    Pity she couldn’t show the characteristics of a Christian as stated in the Good Book…
    love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, self-control…

    Jacinda beats Judith hands-down on those qualities and she claims no religious affiliation nowdays.
    Tad hypocritical, Judith!

  18. Bias will always dictate the way a person judges a debate. Myself included.

    I sincerely believe that they could have sent a cardboard cutout of Ardern to both debates and she still won them handsomely. Why? Because people like, respect, and trust Ardern. That is HUGE.

    Many people are expecting Ardern to knock Collins over in order to score a victory but that’s just not how she operates. Only a fool mistakes kindness and decency ….for weakness.

    Collins is not liked, not respected, and most importantly, not trusted. This is also huge. The saying of give someone enough rope and they will hang themselves is very appropriate with Collins. Just put a little pressure on her with the right question and watch Collins be Collins. If the questions are very friendly and non-threatening to her, she gets yet another free pass.

    Look at TV3 and ask yourself if this is the right place for a neutral debate? If you answer yes, you are a Collins supporter and or an Ardern hater. Simple as that. Look at their breakfast show. Garner is so busy licking the arse of Collins, he’s beyond help and an insult to his profession and democracy. Mark Richardson is a National Party candidate in waiting. Haven’t seen what the narcissist Richardson said about the debate but can offer an educated guess. A hollow victory for Collins. Garner described the result of both debates as “two soft losses for Ardern” WTAF. They make no attempt to even mask their blatant bias.

    Having people like Garner, Hosking, Richardson, NZ Herald etc judge the result of a Collins debate is exactly the same as Collins judging it herself. Oh well, at least it gives the hopeless a little bit of false hope until the reality arrives on October 17th.

    • “Collins is not liked, not respected, and most importantly, not trusted.”

      Not sure if this is entirety correct JF. As you say, probably reflects a little bias on your side. Put Judith in a safe context, ie, Matamata, Ashburton, North Shore Auckland, etc, etc and she can say and do no wrong. It will be interesting to see what happens in these true blue seats, if there is any slippage. But, yes, I do agree, Jacinda a very popular leader, circumstantial perhaps, but truly a caring intelligent human being with humanity and well-being her concern. That will get her, and the Labour Party, over the line by attracting the swinging vote. The Natz will win their share but not sufficient. The BIG question is what happens after Sunday, 17th October. What needs to happen to fix the mess we and the rest of the planet finds itself in…. if indeed ‘fix’ is the correct term. And I am not talking entirely about Covid 19. That may well be beyond Jacinda’s powers alone.

      • “Matamata, Ashburton, North Shore Auckland”

        Rich, white, farming, and South African demographic, Collins will always be a shoe in.

  19. Herman we don’t buy that picture.

    Phil Twyford is an asset now as our transport minister as he is clearly restoring the funding of our regional rail system through changes made in the Land Transport fund so complete rail infrastructure can be made unlike the National Party’s pet policy with years of “deferred maintenance” (robbing of funds) for ‘National’s holiday highways model”.

    Phil is truly doing the right thing for security of our rail services future.

  20. And no mention of building houses in any substantial quantity!?

    I didnt watch this because theyre ‘staged’ and pretty boring.

    Any bribes about to be dished out by the incumbent to shore-up their vote? Like doubling the benefit so that those people arent treated as sub-human(s)? Or tax relief for those working two, three or more jobs? Secondary tax kills the income they receive?

    From what I’ve been reading, I guess the answer to my question is nah, nada, zilch, fuck all.

    • The more it sinks in (the debate), the more I sort of wish I had not watched it, it is just too depressing.

      Labour are going to do some sort of audit/ study into building supplies to see if they can bring prices down. (How about they just remove the damned GST on those products, if cost is the problem? Months down the track and some sort of “study” comes out? Yeah, that’ll help.

      And then they’re going to do the same into FOOD, groceries, supermarkets. If feels like a massive punch in the gut. All they have to do to make an immediate difference is REMOVE THE FLAMING GST off all food and essential items, as they do in other, more civilised countries!!!!!!!!!!

      But no, we get……….. Oh wow! A STUDY! ..into “why our groceries cost so much”.
      And when will that come out. And how many families will have to beg before then.
      And how many children WILL GO HUNGRY!!!


      (As you may guess from my erudite writing, I’m bloody well over it.)

      • GST is 15%, we need 50% reductions in supermarket & building prices before I would be really happy. The government needs income & GST is a reliable earner so 10% would be an acceptable compromise for me, donKey man putting it to 15 % was a punish the poor exercise that should have had them removed straight away for breaking their no new taxes line.

        • 10% would be an acceptable compromise

          For essential FOODs?
          Nope. No way. Absolutely not.
          For a whole bunch of reasons.
          NOT in Aus. NOT in UK. Not in Canada.
          Why are we alone acting as though we are some sort of rich privileged wealthy elite nation who can grab money off anyone trying to buy a loaf of bread?
          It disgusts me that we do that!

  21. @Jacindafan – yet again, you provide a superb analysis of the issue, this time the leaders debate which I sat through. Interesting and insightful comment you make about the media – Tova O’Brien. To expand on that in agreement with you I won my bet with my flat-mates that the Herald so-called analytical commentators (read right-wing marketing arm of the National Party and haters of Jacinda Adern) would report that Collins was the winner. Two of them did (Audrey Young and Claire Trevett, which is to be expected from these two Labour/Jacinda trolls) and two gave draws (Simon Wilson and Fran O’Sullivan). None of them put Jacinda as the winner which she clearly was.

    What these white older boring commentators forget is that they, like the National party, do not really appeal to mainstream younger people who favour Jacinda. They do not care to listen to these commentators because they see their so-called analysis for what it is – an attempt to persuade the already converted to vote National by arguing that somehow National under Collins should be preferred for stability. What a joke that is. National stands for dirty politics and propping up the self-entitled who have never had to face adversity or to work hard in their lives.

    Like me, younger people do believe Jacinda is working hard to bring the economy back on track but we also see environmental issues, climate change, poverty etc as issues which she is aware of and addressing, not like National or their media supporters who see these issues as either non-issues (climate change) or affecting only the poor (poverty) for whom they have no regard.

    Back to you Jacindafan – thank you again. I don’t have the insight or experience that you have but align with your views except your scoring for the first TVNZ debate. I would put Ardern at 4, not 3.

  22. The Prime Minister, fought her red corner well, coming out defending dancing and jabbing when needed, fending off the aggression of the blue corner, at times belligerent blows. In fairness it was a verbal draw, and if being a prize fight for fighters fighting for the prize, the holder of the prize would have been judged the winner. A previous comment also used the fighters in a ring analogy and am in agreement, others used the comparison with the Debate for the American Presidency , or should that debate been called The Debate between the Belligerent and the Humble, as those other compare Collins, as following Trump!s ranting obstreperous. I would suggest not, closer to home was Collins channeling as in the first and this second time, Rob Muldoon.

  23. There has been a mention, a female inquisitor for the third and final debate between the Prime Minister and the Challenger, both female and as suggested rightfully a female inquisitor. Are we not a equal opportunity society of equal, irrespective of race colour sex.
    If it to be, I would dare suggest Mehi Forbes.

  24. ehh, one news coverage: Judith a strong woman, National making inroads, National policies, Act Policies, New Zealand First has lost, NZF policies, National have taken a NZF policy ( NZF voters can vote national, all is not lost!!!), & the leader of the Govt. is equaivalent to Trump…

    Last election: National won, National won, National won, National won, National won, National won, National won, National won….

    Jacinda Ardern, Prime Minister of the 6th Labour lead Government, lol.

  25. In simple terms – Judith Collins kicked Jacinda out of the park. Jacinda got owned.
    Jacindas Smoke free by 2025 but voting for legal canibus – go figure
    Allowing the right for silence over Kahui twims murder – go figure
    Allowing big profitable bussiness such as The Warehouse to keep the wage subsidy – go figure
    Suggestion of meat free Mondays screwing NZ 30 billion farming industry over – go figure.
    Judith exposed Jacindas true colours, yes Jacinda got well and trulu owned

    • Rod Barclay,

      As you are communicating in “simple terms”, allow my retort your broken English. You’re absolutely wrong and your blatant bias is up in lights with every word you spouted.

      Jacinda most definitely didn’t get owned by anyone, especially Collins. Before anyone makes a judgment on a debate, they first need to examine the platform for debate. Is it conducive to a meaningful debate? Anyone who says yes to the two “debates” so far has no real understanding of what “meaningful” actually is. Then look at the participants and their history. If Charles Manson for example appeared in a 2015 US debate on the demise of Sharon Tate Polanski and Rosemary LaBianca etc, you’d give at least some credence to his contribution. If on the other hand he attended a 2016 debate on caring for people in the community, his contribution would be deemed by most as ironic and farcical.

      Then you have the alleged judges. Go back to the 1976 Summer Olympics in Montreal and the Romanian gymnast Nadia Comăneci who won multiple gold medals and was the first ever gymnast to score a perfect 10 at the Olympics. Most people who witnessed her performance knew it was perfect. Now, imagine if the judges were family, colleagues, friends, sponsors, supporters and more importantly “investors” of a rival who was also a contender. Some of these investors are desperate and have a long history of unscrupulous conduct. If they gave their candidate a perfect ten despite her slipping over multiple times and then gave Nadia Comăneci an 8 for her performance, does that accurately reflect on what the gymnasts actually did?

      When you look at the people hailing Collins the debates winner, you are looking at the epitome of vested interest and blatant bias. It’s insulting to the intellect of all Kiwis to expect them to believe the alleged results are a reflection of what they witnessed. Why not wait until the evening arrives and then try and convince Kiwis it’s 10am. It’s that blatant and will backfire.

      Smoking cigarettes is disgusting and unhealthy. That is well proven over time and accepted as factual. Wanting a smokefree country by 2025 is perhaps unrealistic but if you have no goals, you have no hope of achieving anything. The future of any country is with it’s young people. Most young people in NZ are enlightened and not interested in cigarette smoking. As a result, what Ardern is wanting resonates with them and many others except of course Winston Peters and others. Why do you link cigarette smoking with cannabis smoking? The two are completely unrelated and only the ignorant would state they are. I know hundreds of cannabis smokers but know only a handful that also smoke cigarettes. That handful are in the 40+ age group. The main reasons conservative ignoramuses want to keep hypercritical cannabis laws in the dark ages and disrespected by most young people especially relates to totally flawed “information”. Cannabis is most definitely not a gateway drug. From an anecdotal perspective, of the hundreds of cannabis users I know and have known, only three used other illicit drugs. All three started off using valium and other pills, not cannabis. The ignorant state that cannabis users are vulnerable to schizophrenia. This is horseshit. Cannabis use has steadily increased since the 1960’s yet the cases of schizophrenia have flatlined with no corresponding increase. Very telling for those who base their perspective on actual evidence. That aside, I don’t recall hearing Ardern state she will vote in favour of legalizing cannabis. What I heard her say was she had smoked cannabis many years ago. Ardern is seen as a very influential person but has not attempted to use / abuse that influence in the cannabis referendum. Despite that, shitheels are still making their bullshit claims powered by ignorance, vested interest and complete bias.

      Interesting that you attempt to use the tragic killings of the Kahui twins to make a point, exactly like the reprehensible Judith Collins did. Have you read the Dirty Politics book Rod? No? I didn’t think so. Did you notice how Collins abused her position to strongly suggest the killer of the Kahui twins was the father Chris Kahui who had already been cleared of the crime? Collins has a legal background yet is infamous for running smear campaigns against her rivals/enemies or anyone who has the audacity to stand up to her. She did as much against Chris Kahui in her statement during the debate. I hope his lawyer was watching and takes the appropriate litigation against Collins.

      Yet again the Kahui twins have been spoken of in a leaders debate. If you were paying attention, you would have seen that National are talking about obliterating the centuries old “right to silence” of all accused suspects of all crime. National are just using highly emotive examples of child killings to gain traction which will be another epic fail. All of NZ condemns the silence of family etc who have knowledge relating to the tragic and brutal killings of young children. Something needs to be done but what National is suggesting amounts to using an industrial jackhammer to cut off a tiny piece of cheese. There will be other ways of getting the job done perhaps relating to Government support being withdrawn for a person it is virtually certain has vital information about a child killing but is withholding it. That action must not apply to any other crimes or any other accused person. There are a long list of reasons why suspects are presumed innocent until proven guilty, despite what National will spout off for a few Neanderthal votes.

      Do you understand why the wage subsidy was implemented and why everything needed to happen quickly given the circumstances? No Government will ever stop unscrupulous and immoral conduct in the community. The Warehouse with their huge staff numbers qualified for the wage subsidy due to the lockdown at level 4 but later returned a profit and laid off many staff. Their business practice was legal but immoral. Creating retrospective laws in this area would be a minefield. My business suffered more than the required amount of decline to qualify for the wage subsidy during both lockdowns. I paid my staff and contributed funds to boost it up a little so they could make their existing commitments. I’m only now starting to recover but anticipate making a profit for the business year despite the difficulties. Should I repay the wage subsidy? Should I retain my staff now if my business looks like it may go tits up? Who else should this apply to? You have no far king idea, just like the dazed and confused Collins who wants to bully her way to being PM.

      Unsure why you mention meat free Mondays. You do know that both leaders were asked how often they eat meat as if it had some short term relevance? Both said twice a week. That’s 5 days a week they are not eating pork, lamb, chicken and beef. Ardern is already having 5 meat free days every week so it wouldn’t be a big stretch for her to have a meat free Monday. Would she force that onto NZ? Only if you believe in Unicorns. Everyone in NZ already knows Ardern has a good understanding of Climate change where as Collins doesn’t. No other evidence of this is required especially if the evidence relates to how often both women eat meat at this time.

      Not only can you not spell “truly owned” correctly, you’ve given compelling evidence that you also don’t comprehend it’s meaning. You are in for a very disappointing and tearful October 17th. Mind you, I’m picking you have been crying into your Alpen every morning since Winston Peters heartbreakingly chose Labour on the 19th October 2017. The audacity to have anyone other than National Govern NZ is just unthinkable.

      I can tell you the areas Collins may have scored a very small success during the debate. She very deliberately set out in contrived fashion to “appear” more relatable, softer in nature and appearance and even funny but NZ sees her for EXACTLY what she is. Toxic, divisive, well past use by date and a totally untrustworthy bully. That hasn’t changed and won’t. It will only be reinforced as her desperation grows all the while knowing Christopher Luxon is standing by smiling with his number 1 fan, John Key.

      Collins may be getting traction with a few National Party voters but lets face it Rod, they could put a blue suit and a National Party badge and ribbon onto 46 year old Phillip John Smith and a % of National Party voters will still tick the box containing his name.

  26. Who won the ‘debate’?

    For me, the Greens won, from the moment that Paddy wrote off poverty as being too much of a problem, letting both main parties off the hook of ever having to deal with it. It is possible that if the ‘debate’ had been in a different format, and Jacinda had been given more time and more leeway in answering, that I might be seeing this differently now. But Paddy demanded an instant answer and she had to say that “technically” he was probably correct. That’s all they had.

    It could have remained an open question, however slightly, but then came the “Studies” revelation. The answer to people having to beg for food? “Let them eat studies”. That, too, would be okay as an adjunct to a real, actual poverty- alleviating measure (eg removal of GST from even a few items), but without that, it is big Fail.

    The ONLY party who are prepared to take on the cruel levels of poverty and inequality in Aotearoa NZ are the Greens, with their Poverty Action Plan

    I do NOT agree with all of it, by any means. But it IS A START! It’s a point of beginning, from which discussions can happen, and from where essential, actual real life changes can begin to be made. No other party have taken this on.

  27. Lets ask the USA ambassador to AO/NZ to unleash this California congresswoman on trump.
    adern? collins? This is how it’s done.
    “The California congresswoman used the old-school device to win free Covid-19 testing for Americans and she’s not done yet.”
    Watching her peel that rich old crook like a grape is incredibly satisfying.
    This woman must become the first president of the USA.

  28. I can’t really comment as I switched off early on. Reading this thread it was a punch and Judy show. Do you really think anything significant is going to change for the public’s benefit, or the poorest? I will not be complicit in perpetuating this poor slapstick comedy. I’m out. If u vote for it you can’t complain. You’ll need more than luck.

  29. What is the point of these “leaders debates”? Yeah OK TVNZ gets eyeballs to sell to advertisers. Yawn.
    It is parallel to the alleged “opinion polls” which ask about “preferred prime minister”.
    We actually have a parliamentary political system, not a presidential one.
    Leadership of a political party is not decided by the electorate.
    The chattering class of media types appear to be oblivious of this. despite Todd Muller and assorted parachute leaders over many years.

  30. What is the point of these “leaders debates”? Yeah OK TVNZ gets eyeballs to sell to advertisers. Yawn.
    It is parallel to the alleged “opinion polls” which ask about “preferred prime minister”.
    We actually have a parliamentary political system, not a presidential one.
    Leadership of a political party is not decided by the electorate.
    The chattering class of media types appear to be oblivious of this. despite Todd Muller and assorted parachute leaders over many years.


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