Checking The Left: The Dreadful Logic Of Fascism.

1. What Left?

   • Hah-hah! RB, I sympathise with your scorn for what passes as the Left in 2023. Certainly, the traditional, class-based, trade union-fortified, Labour Party-led Left of 1938 is no longer in evidence.

     But it is what constitutes the Left in the judgement of the Right that matters – at least in terms of this argument. And, in those terms, the identity-politics-led Left of the 2020s is seen by the Right as extremely powerful, and in urgent need of being suppressed.

     If you want a real-time example of the process I am describing in this post, just take a look at what’s happening in the US state of Florida.

     • I think it is the other way around Chris. The woke left are the authoritarians here. Shutting down free speech, smearing their opponents as alt right, tras phones etc.

       Aside from being an evangelical Christian, what is racist about Julian B? It’s a genuine question.

       Polls show the majority of NZders are against cogovernance. Julian is holding public meetings. What else is he saying that makes him a fascist? Genuine question

       • This is what he is saying.
         This guy wants to start a race war

         https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ny7ULqmwn-I

         • Hi Geoff, thanks for the link. Because I am interested in genuine debate I watched the first 15 minutes or so, up to the bit where he is talking about two separate justice systems. What has he said in this 15 minutes is ncorrect?

         • Hi, I didn’t watch the whol vid, yet.
           Did you?
           Could you quote or give a time during the vid where he promotes a race war?
           Thanks.

           • anker and Anaru.

             Do you think Maori and their supporters are going to sit down and accept the crap he is spouting that is nothing short of disinformation.

             Shame you cant post photos in replies because Maori sure haVe a lot to shut this guy and his alt right supporters down.

             Orewa is just the start.

             I suggest you watch the whole video.

             Being of his generation he is trying tyo bring back the 1950s and 60s where Maori were completely dominated by white Pakeha rule.

             The fact is the TOW guaranteed them co governance no matter what Julian and his hobsons pledge mates and white supremacists say.

             So sorry to julian and his ilk those days are gone where white is right and our way or the highway rules.

             Just in his first few meetings he has stirred up ordinary Maori and their supporters .

             So stand by for fireworks because this has only just got started.

             If he didn’t want to stir up trouble he would not have called all the Multiple acts of parliament passed in the NZ parliament against Maori that I sent him fake news.

             Also he called the TOW fake news and fraud in an email to me.

             He says he is targeting elitist Maori which is bullcrap what is is doing is targeting all Maori iwi and any input they have in local and national politics which has been in existence for at least 20 years.

             He is a white racist full stop.

       • Good questions Anker and waiting to see what the responses are . .

       • Its all a manipulation – wokeism, the left, the right, the far-right, these are divisive tools employed by the corporate/financial class to help keep, we, the people, both divided and looking in the wrong direction (fighting among ourselves instead of fighting THEM).

         Likewise, co-governance is pointless – why – because our government like all western governments, is run out of the USA, while the USA itself, is run by corporate-financial-moneyed interests, aka – true fascism. Sure, there’s a lot of local issues that the US has no interest in, but when there is an issue they want us ti follow, yep, we jump right on board, regardless of our own interests. Co-governance – pointless. Governance free of outside influence and or said influence declared when an issue/policy is put forward to, we the people – paramount importance to us all. Why oh why do we not talk about this all important issue, especially when fascism is discussed.

       • It is a great question Anka. I think it deserves a lengthy response as well. Here’s mine:

         Chris Trotter. Fascism And “Stop Co-Governance”

         While I have agreed with Chris Trotter on some issues, I have always done so warily, with the understanding that in some fundamental ways, I have deep disagreements with the man. Mostly because of his Left leaning viewpoint. Chris has been quite vocal condemning some of the political machinations of this latest iteration of the Labour party, and some of that comes from the reality that his is a more moderate, more liberal leaning political perspective, more of an old school Leftie.

         But this is one of those occasions where my deep disagreement surfaces.

         His recent opinion piece “Checking The Left: The Dreadful Logic Of Fascism” I’d like to unpack this a little.

         His opening salvo is to characterize Julian Batchelor’s “Stop Co-Governance” roadshow as a sign of the “growth of fascism”. “[F]ascism is almost always a response to what the Right regards as the dangerous strength – or even the imminent triumph – of the Left.”

         Is that a fair comment? To answer that raises another question:” What is fascism?

         Like the now ubiquitous word “racism” its constant use is rendering its original meaning almost useless as a means of informing people about some real state of affairs. “Racist” and its common counterpart “fascist” simply means someone the Left disagrees with. It’s a convenient label, for diminishing respect for the one it supposedly describes.

         However, if we refuse to allow this to happen to these good descriptors, let’s see how well “fascist” describes Julian Batchelor and his band of merry men – and women. (Covering my bases here).

         According to Merriam Webster dictionary – Fascism is: a political philosophy, movement, or regime … that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.

         It seems to have conveniently escaped Trotter’s notice that many would characterize Ardern’s government as answering very neatly that description.

         Fascism “:exalts … race above the individual”. We have seen a great deal of race based issues balloon up in the last 5 years.

         Fascism “stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader. We’ve seen an autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader like never before. Just think of the morning sessions from “the podium of truth”, lockdowns, shutting down the whole country, centralizing health services, attempting to take power from local councils and centralizing this as well.

         Fascism -”Severe economic and social regimentation” ? Think of the mandates, think of masks, think of no travel, no visiting loved ones, no vaccine/no job. Think of advice not to talk to your neighbour, and dobbing them in for indiscretions.

         Fascism – “Forcible suppression of opposition?” Think of how anyone of the Right, gets vilified in the press. Think of the extreme Left wing bias of the press and how that impacts public perception. It may not be “force” in the most extreme sense of the word, but when the media is controlled so adeptly, not by force – except in the sense of controlling the education system which makes any deviation from leftist politics almost impossible for any graduating out of that system. And these graduates enter the “fourth estate” with a mindset that naturally predisposes them to see through a Leftist lens. Think of the attempt to muster in draconian hate speech laws, and the characterization that anyone on the Right is more likely to be a terrorist, and their speech and actions “divisive” and anti-State. Think of trotting out the ideologically compromised “experts” like Professor Spoonley in front of all the media cameras spouting unquestioned vitriol regarding “banning the Right” altogether!

         But wait, there’s more to fascism than this and it smacks of the sort of irony that impresses me of the erroneous projection of Trotters remarks.

         Dinesh D’Souza, lecturing in a public university campus setting, made clear to a student, (who, like Trotter, labelled him a fascist), even while the student, attempted to disrupt, shout down, and ultimately cause the cancellation of the meeting.

         D’Souza spoke words to the effect: “Are you aware of the Black shirts in Italy” (the home of fascism), “and the Brownshirts in Germany? Do you realize that they would go to meetings, goons that would stand at the back of the room, and when someone attempted to make an intelligent presentation and answer questions they would shout them down, yell at them, try to intimidate them, and count it as success if they could get the event cancelled, and the speaker threatened.”

         Yes, that too characterizes fascism.

         But he didn’t stop at pointing out that the young person was fascist herself. He went on to say some pointed remarks about Socialism, in regards to National Socialism (Nazi Germany). Asking if she knew the 25 point platform of Hitler’s National Socialist goals and whether she knew that Hitlers deadly opponent was capitalism. He went on to allude to some of his policies: The State control of Banks, State control of Healthcare, State control of Education, ending with the observation that “fascism” is historically a Left leaning aberration.

         Do you see the pattern here? If you haven’t I will add a portion of a video from one of Julian Batchelor’s meetings.

         Finally, I would add to the defining characteristics of fascism, is that historically it conspires with large private corporations to restrict and exploit the people. It is Big Government in bed with Big Business. It is interesting to note that many people perceive an uncomfortable relationship with Maori corporations winning large and perhaps uncontested contracts and tenders with the Government along with questions raising the spectre of nepotism. A recent directive is that a certain proportion of all government business, in the name of “equity”, must go to Maori interests. The whole “Treaty Framework” is providing not only grants to bolster elite Maoris, but consultation fees which must amount to astronomic figures on the basis of the “necessity to honour the Treaty”, which accordingly necessitates “consulting with Iwi”. Colloquially named the “gravy train’, or “troughers”.

         My next beef with Trotter is his disingenuous characterization and reference to the “meeting organised by the Christian evangelist Julian Batchelor.”

         What is Trotter attempting here? Batchelor doesn’t bring his private, religious views into these meetings, at least not any overt way that might be construed as an attempt to convert anyone to religion. No, Trotter here is using an old media trick. He is in fact playing on the prejudices of a largely secular public to “turn the tide of public opinion” against him. He is hoping that if people know he’s “religious” that will turn them off coming to listen, or paying him any real attention. This is Trotter the Leftie in full demonstration, flying the flag, making his colours known.

         First characterizing him as “fascist” then as a “religious nutter”. Character assassinations are in fact the sign of a weak argument, a last ditch attempt to put people off from taking anything he says as authoritative, or worth the investment of time and effort to hear him out.

         I can agree with Trotter that “the explicit purpose of Batchelor’s roadshow is to build a mass political movement of Pakeha New Zealanders, not only to stop co-governance, but also to halt what he sees as the state-sanctioned elevation of Māori over European culture.”

         This raises the question: Is that concern justified? As a political candidate in the 2017 general election I was stunned to hear a Maori party candidate spell out the specific aim of appropriating 50% of government revenue towards Maori. When only 17% or so, are in fact identifying as Maori, that’s not even proportionate “Co-Governance” (which I would oppose at any rate), that’s effectively dominance.

         The return to “tribalism” is indicative of many nations exemplified – especially in Africa, who having shrugged off the “Colonialism” of the past, (admittedly with its own history of injustices towards those who were there before), but then plunged into anarchy, destabilization and ultimate economic and social collapse. That is a pattern that bears not repeating here.Trotter’s remark that Batchelor’s crusade is to thwart what Batchelor envisages as “transforming New Zealand into “the Zimbabwe of the South Pacific”. This in my view is not an unwarranted observation.

         Who wants it to get to that extreme?
         Trotter’s next comment is also typical of a Leftie journalist wishing to dictate the terms of the engagement to put the opposing view in the worst terms possible, to frame the opponent in terms that will put him in the worst, or most unfavourable light.

         How does he do that?
         “For Batchelor to succeed, he would need to awaken a huge, and so-far undetected, strata of angry Kiwi racists.” Do you see the assumption there? Ipso facto, according to Trotter, if you agree with Batchelor, you must be a racist…

         But this raises another interesting issue. What if Maori agree with Batchelor? Are they then racist? In conversations with Maori I am confident that many, at least in private, are feeling that they are not represented well by those elitists that are behind co-governance. They are themselves expressing some dismay at this push for separatism and “Co-Governance”. But in a very community oriented, close knit population – it is a mark of courage to stand up in public and say so – a step too far for some.

         By framing the issue here in terms of race and racism, he’s attempting to tar not only Batchelor with that brush – but all who might throw in their lot with that cause. But Batchelor didn’t make it an issue of race, those who use the Treaty as a lever to divide along the lines of identity politics did that. And then – with no shame – play the racist card for all its worth. I would warrant that if the same Treaty was used as a lever to force the redistribution of wealth along any other social class, it would evoke the same response.

         Further manipulation of the facts regarding the Dargaville “Stop Co-Governance” meeting seem to be evident in Trotter’s hit piece. At the very least – the facts are contested. Trotter, seemingly oblivious to the irony of characterizing Batchelor’s movement as “Fascist” then goes on to assert “predictably, Māori and their anti-racist Pakeha allies are threatening to turn up to shout down Batchelor’s “hate speech”.

         I wonder if they will wear brown shirts?

         Adding to the irony Trotter then drops this: “Batchelor’s opponents are planning to contact local councils around the country and urge them not to allow the “blatant racist” to hire their facilities for his public meetings. If some local councils, perhaps worried that Batchelor’s meetings might become unruly, or, even worse, attract threats of serious violence, decide to deny him access to their facilities, then as sure as eggs-are-eggs, the Free Speech Union will become involved.”

         He can say this with reasonable confidence because the Free Speech Union has already become involved. (Remember the furore over Sport Northland?) And why not? Why should they not get involved? It is after all an issue of Free Speech when the agitators continually turn up to his meetings to provoke, disrupt and attempt to shut down this discussion, and I’ve seen for myself their self-congratulatory remarks at having successfully put several prospective venue administrators off from having his meeting in their town. Kaiwaka is one such example. It would indeed be remiss of the Free Speech Union to ignore such a challenge to free speech. Again, Trotter is using this Leftie tactic of “pre-empting” events and framing them in such a way as to predispose people to think poorly of Batchelor and resist, or be passive and not be involved.

         But our political leaders are saying New Zealand needs this discussion rather than simply have it foisted upon us. David Seymour’s Act party is calling for a referendum, Chris Luxon is opposing certain policies along these lines as he made reasonably clear at the Ratana event. Winston Peters is on record as appealing to the commonsense perception that it is a blatant social engineered strategy to empower certain elites. Matt King’s “Democracy NZ”, spokesperson on this, Lee Smith says it’s time we reverted to being color blind in our political and social discourse.

         So why is there not more positive media coverage of this tour? The media coverage he does get – is so blatantly opposed to his stance, that much is clear.

         The last thing Trotter wants, and he expresses this fear very clearly, as with those many who sympathize with his views – is that Batchelor’s cause becomes not only a clarion call against separatism, but invokes more support by it becoming an issue of free speech, freedom of expression, and all that follows – as a threat to democracy itself. Free speech being as it is, an absolute imperative in a real democracy.

         But again, Trotter fails to recognize, deliberately I would warrant, that this is not Batchelor’s doing. He didn’t invite the protesters to try to dissuade or threaten those who administered the venues, those that cowed before the threats of disturbance, trouble and possible damage to their venues. In a word, the protesters themselves are causing this to become a much wider issue. Neither did Batchelor “force” in any way, their responses to his meetings. Responses such as drowning him out with singing, interrupting, speaking loudly with those that were there to listen, taking the focus of Batchelor with any means possible short of physically accosting him.

         Here are some comments of Trotter’s that take on a more serious, even sinister tone: “People who may not be as hostile to co-governance as Batchelor, but who are extremely hostile to the angry crowds who turn up to shut his meetings down, may feel obliged to, at least, defend his freedom of speech. There may even be an element who feel strongly enough to offer themselves as “security” for Batchelor’s meetings. Naturally, they will wear uniforms – to assist both the Police and the public in distinguishing them from the “extremists”.

         Again he is preemptively attempting to steer this discussion in order to dictate the terms that will be employed to the advantage of his own cause. His use of scare quotes around the word “security”, is in fact a thinly veiled reference to the “brown shirts” of the National Socialists of Nazi Germany. But note they were Socialists, Lefties, not of the Right at all. He is speaking as if Batchelor’s obvious need for security, presently handled by Police, as it should, might migrate to an entourage of vigilantes. This is Trotter at his worst and perhaps most mischievious.

         It is no surprise then, that his next sentence is this: “With unnerving speed, Batchelor’s movement will begin to acquire all the historical hallmarks of fascism.”

         But criticism of Trotter aside, (for the moment), I do recognize his astute political intuition.

         Trotter: ”Observing the rapid growth of Batchelor’s far-right pressure group, the National and Act parties will find it very difficult to resist the temptation to range themselves alongside it. Neither of these “official” representatives of the Right will want to be caught opposing Batchelor, for fear that their rivals will immediately come out in support. It is equally hard to see NZ First and the other, even smaller, right-wing parties turning down the chance to piggy-back on what Batchelor’s opponents are angrily calling New Zealand’s shameful “white supremacist” movement.”

         It is, sadly, entirely possible for the worst to happen. If Batchelor becomes the voice of aggrieved Pakeha. If National, Act, NZ First, and all the others rally to his cause – for fear of being lumped in with the “treatyists”, the “cultural Marxists”, and all the other manifestations of the “Woke Left” – then a great, 100,000-strong, gathering of the right-wing clans in the Auckland Domain on Election Eve suddenly becomes a “live” proposition.”

         If that’s fascism Chris, not only am I a monkey’s uncle, I say “Bring it on”!

         • Well written and accurate

     • Great Post @ CT. Sorry in advance for the long winded comment.
       But there IS no Left. There never was a ‘Left’. Just because we give a thing a label then point to it and say that, that political thing over there is a ‘Left’ thing doesn’t necessarily make the thing that which it in fact is. The thing I refer to is in part political but politics isn’t the whole of the Thing. The thing I refer to has politics in its tool box but it’s also everything else it comes in contact with.
       The thing you refer to as being a political ‘Left’ is what I’ve come to think of as another kind of thing. I call it ‘Common Sense’. The least common of all the senses, so it’s said.
       What I’m trying to write is that by giving the politics of Common Sense a Left label is to doom Common Sense to eternal conflict with a group of nuts who’s selfishness and greed and in many cases down right illegalities to get more than they need while enjoying their destructive journey through the lives of innocent others gets psychological leverage usually in the form of logical fallacies which are really only novel ways of lying . And look what that’s doing to the only habitable planet I know of. The non commonsensical’s are fucking it up. All of it. What, about remorseless Right Wing greed for the sake of the biggest pile of money is commonsensical? Nothing, is my attempt at a sane and honest answer. The Right Wing are devoid of common sense. They have none at all. And the Left don’t exist. All we, who are not Right Wing have is Common Sense in opposition to mass fuck wittery. The only thing the Right can fall back on is guns, greed, hate and ignorance. None of which have the slightest elements of Common Sense about them.
       Neoliberalism is the best example I can think of which shows us the effects of a complete absence of Common Sense. Was it commonsensical to privatise taxes-paid-for assets to create nine multi billionaires? For example, was it commonsensical to pull up railway tracks into our agricultural primary industry exports sector, i.e. our farming lands? Was it commonsensical to remove passenger rail from the few tracks remaining? What, about trading with Australia is commonsensical when they represent our biggest competitors for our agricultural northern-hemisphere markets?
       Common sense is everywhere and is freely available to everyone who understands its value and to get it to work for you all you all you have to do is understand how it works.
       It’s like walking past a bicycle everyday on your way to work because you never bothered to find out what it was so you never tried to learn how to ride it. But if you asked the Right Wing what it was and how to use it they’d sell you a 454 cu in Chevy coupe without a tow bar and I’d probably buy it off you when you ran out of gas.
       In case you haven’t read it. @ Malcolm Evans posted this link to a journalist named Caitlin Johnstone. It’s a must-read. Then you’ll need to go off for a cup of tea and a wee lie down.
       ‘Consortium News’
       “Australia is not arming itself against China to protect itself from China. Australia is arming itself against China to protect itself from the United States.”
       https://consortiumnews.com/2023/03/15/caitlin-johnstone-australias-real-fear-isnt-china/

       • Thankyou for the link, CB.

         Ever since the huge impending China as threat meme blew up in NZ, (seemingly out of nowhere), I’ve been confused because the sudden danger touted was never tied to any significant events. China wasn’t doing anything new yet suddenly the Australasian media and political class was posturing and pushing the idea of threat. Threat as in something new not a lingering potential threat that applied equally to many other nations. And threat, as in to us – and from one of our biggest trading partners.

         The US is increasingly unstable as is empirical reign is petering out. The piece by Johnston brings an interesting perspective, that of the need to avoid the US’s wrath as we just get on with functioning in a changing world. One in which US dominance is waning, yet while it still has the power to punish nations that don’t maintain its pretense that it is not.

         • Building artificial islands on shoals and reefs, with military length airfields on them,in the north Indonesian sea ; ) , is new.

       • You can’t say there never was a Left if everyone has decided, or a substantial majority, that there is/was. All our lives, our things, animals and people and our environment have been named or perceived by us. If something has not entered our brain, mind, consciousness (not sure about sub, or un-conscious) then it does not exist to us unless we feel that there must be something of this sort out there, and look for it. This may need intuition which is an interesting thing too, .

         Philosophy has it all covered, or maybe I mean you have to read about it under the bedclothes using a torch.
         Existential dialectical materialism is the philosophic synthesis of Marxism (dialectical materialism) and existentialism, providing the delineation of a new philosophic paradigm based on a more adequate view of humanity and the nature of human reality.7/10/2016
         Core Tenets of Existential Dialectical Materialism
         Politics & Prose
         https://www.politics-prose.com › book
         

       • This on how we view and understand what’s around us and that those views can change from trauma. JG Ballard was interned as a child with his family by the Japanese in the 1930s and says it changed the way he regarded life.

         https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._G._Ballard
         It has been supposed that Ballard’s exposure to the atrocities of war at an impressionable age explains the apocalyptic and violent nature of much of his fiction.

         Martin Amis wrote that Empire of the Sun “gives shape to what shaped him”. Ballard’s own account of the experience was more nuanced: “I don’t think you can go through the experience of war without one’s perceptions of the world being forever changed. The reassuring stage set that everyday reality in the suburban west presents to us is torn down; you see the ragged scaffolding, and then you see the truth beyond that, and it can be a frightening experience.” But also: “I have—I won’t say happy—not unpleasant memories of the camp. […] I remember a lot of the casual brutality and beatings-up that went on—but at the same time we children were playing a hundred and one games all the time!”

       • “…by giving the politics of Common Sense a Left label is to doom Common Sense to eternal conflict with a group of nuts who’s selfishness and greed and in many cases down right illegalities to get more than they need while enjoying their destructive journey through the lives of innocent others gets psychological leverage usually in the form of logical fallacies which are really only novel ways of lying . ”
         such a wonderfully constructed sentence 🙂 thank you

         • Agree that that is a marvellous joined-up meaningful sentence that carries the thought clearly though to the finish. Note: logical fantasy is the term that John Wyndham used for the trope of his books; it is –
           an offshoot of Science Fiction in which the mundane, and seemingly implausible merge with thoughtful effect.
           The Internet’s First Dedicated John Wyndham Website.
           lode.co.uk https://www.wyndham.lode.co.uk
           (That’s our life today don’t you reckon?)

           A logical fallacy sounds like a term that might be thrown around by people who like the sound of big words and ideas. I looked it up to be sure I understood and pass it on so you will be able to brain anyone who is playing with ideas, with a formal rebuttal to their wonkery!

           A fallacy is the use of invalid or otherwise faulty reasoning in the construction of an argument which may appear to be a well-reasoned argument if unnoticed. The term was introduced in the Western intellectual tradition by the Aristotelian De Sophisticis Elenchis. Wikipedia

           The term logical fallacy is in a sense self-contradictory, because logic refers to valid reasoning, whereas a fallacy is the use of poor reasoning. Therefore, the term formal fallacy is preferred. In informal discourse, however, logical fallacy is used to mean an argument which is problematic for any reason.
           Fallacy – Wikipedia
           wikipedia.org
           https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Fallacy

         • Just because you put a label “common sense” to a group doesn’t make it so. I’m a great believer in common sense too. But people associate me with the Right, as I do myself. We all think our own way of thinking is “common sense”. Going by that label will not change a thing, you will merely get “Common sense A” people disputing the “Common sense B” perspective. Renaming yourself is simplistic.

           We are all proteges of our culture to a large degree. The attitudes, values, beliefs we take on board, either by the pressures of enculturation, (a word I made up, but is entirely meaningful and not hard to grasp), or through pro-active, purposeful deliberation, are yet attributable to those that influence us. We in effect stand on their shoulders.

           Everyone has a worldview, the question is – Is it a good one?

           ‘We each create our world by what we choose to notice, creating a world of distinction that makes sense to us. We then ‘see’ the world through the self we have created.’ Margaret Wheatley and Kellner Rogers

           “Unlike puppets we have the possibility of stopping in our movements, looking up and perceiving the machinery by which we have been moved. In this act lies the first steps towards freedom.” Peter Berger Sociologist

       • if you go by the origianal italian idea of fascism(less racist than the nazi version) in this country we have corpratist rule therefore NZ is already a ‘fascist’ state as is most of the west….we just don’t get the pretty black shirts…
         black is so slimming

         • We are in my opinion fascist in New Zealand under this Labour Government.
           Lockdowns
           Mandates
           Dob your neighbour in.

     • Thanks for sharing your views with us. I find it inspiring and thought provoking.

       Why do you not discuss how a Maori senate that has a veto over government can constrain the excesses of government to the benefit of our liberal democracy.

2. Until there is some kind of organised progressive alternative (of which there is literally none at present), the field is wide open for such maverick conservatives to hoover up angry working class people.

   After all, the country is now such a backward and impoverished joke, the most logical option for the average person is to leave the country. The large number of people who cannot afford to do so is a big potential constituency.

   The demands for such a progressive campaign could be extremely simple. Reverse all attacks on working people from the 1980s. Revive the spirit and platform of 1935. No to divisive racialism.

   Because nobody inside Parliament is interested in such a thing, it will have to come from the outside. Although the trade union rank-and-file will be behind it, the Labour Party machine which dominates the union executives will need to somehow be sidelined.

   It is a daunting task, but it has all been done before.

3. I object to your calling Batchelor a Christian, the most well-known NT apostle has this to say regarding government “Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will [a]bring judgment on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.”

   • He’s a heretic!
     Burn him.

   • another one evangelical nutbars ignore bonnie they’re about as christian as a box of frogs

4. And YOUR answer, Chris?? For surely allowing “co-governance” (whatever the heck that means and whatever the heck it involves) is not the answer. It poses undeniable problems for traditions of democracy, equality and freedom of speech, indeed all sorts of freedoms — which are already under serious threat. Co-governance must be combated. But how? You seem to suggest that all populist approaches to this are likely to turn into fascism. And I agree there is that potential. But populism itself is not fascistic; it can be democracy in action. I think here of the farmers’ movement in America in the 1890s, which as a historian, I know a bit about. But, and it is a big BUT, it requires an educated and informed populace (please don’t all laugh) and the ability to resist the tendency to blindly follow a charismatic leader. Leaders arise, and can play important roles in popular movements, but they need to be accountable, and, alas, they need to have the public interest, not their own, foremost in their minds and hearts. You say this is certainly not the case with Julian Batchelor, and from the little I know of him and his methods you seem to be quite right. And you are also correct that there is a real danger existing political parties, both large and small, may adopt his methods, his divisive language, etc to advance their own chances of electoral success. Let us hope they don’t; let us not just hope but work against them doing so through our own well thought out input on this issue of co-governance. And this begins with each of us figuring out, and being able to explain clearly, calmly and respectfully, why we don’t (or do) back co-goverance. Rarely are simple answers — especially when delivered in inflammatory langauge — real answers.

   • How?
     Allow it to be freely debated.
     Those who have read He PuaPua are probably the minority.
     Surely those representing us in parliament and journalists have studied this and understand where this is heading. Yet, …. No debate is allowed or encouraged.
     Is it unreasonable if people see reformation of public services that makes no sense in absence of He PuaPua to get nervous, when debate is shut down by name calling. Lack of open and honest conversation is the breeding (bleeding? As Chris T often posits) ground for dissent and inflict polarisation onto our society.

     • 100%. John Thiart

       • If a Maori senate gets a veto right over parliament in terms of the things that government wants to do in terms or air, water, land and see… I have no issue with that.

         In this sense what is good for Maori is good for us all and a Maori senate can limit the excesses of government.

       • Agree 100% John Thiart.

   • You claim that you’re an historian but know little of the Co-governance arrangement made between the Crown & Maori leaders. You’re apparently not educated in NZ history because of your comment so I’ll leave you a link of NZ history told from the first settlers and visitors to NZ/AO.
     http://www.enzb.auckland.ac.nz/

     • Yes. It will be useful to get a definition of what co-governance means to those who speak to the matter today.

       It does not seem to mean to everyone what it means to Willie Jackson…. How can one debate an issue that is undefined.

       • IMO, it’s the NZ govts creating a space for maori aspirations, and it’s a practical solution to the Treaty of Waitangi and property rights that specific in Article 2 of the Maori version.

         For example the Tuwharetoa people are still major landholders in their rohe (district) so co-governance the Geothermal waters and resources with local councils and written in these arrangements is public access just like the Te Urewera national park or the AMA with Ngati Whatua or Tanui with the Waikato river similarly with Ngai Tahu etc….

         The rest is reactionary believing that maori are going to take ova blah blah blah a lot of haters as well.

         • Who will argue with that? You mention some of those who will protest that.

           Where Maori owns 80% of the sky, the water or the land they should have a veto right or should they?

           • What an earth do you mean Maori own 80% of the sky

             • Simple really. It is a metaphor for essential to life.
               Therefore, if a Maori senate is established that has veto rights to protect society from government excesses I am all for it. What is good for Maori in terms of the forces of life is good for all of us.

     • thanks for this link

       • ?

     • I don’t just “claim to be a historian.” I am one, now retired. But, no, I am not a person who studied NZ history. I was educated in the US and studied US history, and have taught at the university level. I’ve also taught 18th-20th century European history. So I was referring more to the methods used by movements elsewhere, and the advantages and risks these methods had. I am trying to learn more about NZ history, and thank you for the link you provided.

     • Stephen you provided this link before in the context of your claim that some pre colonial Maori lived to 150 years.

       The link is a very long list of books/articles. If you want to influence people on this blog site, I suggest you link a passage from anyone of these books and provide a quote that illustrates your point

       • Anker, I’m not your mommy nor am I responsible for teaching you and everyone else on the TDB NZ history and you need to provide evidence that I’m wrong in my assertions. The link I’ve provided is Pakeha first coming to our beautiful country and everything else there are other historic content that correlate with these achieves, do some research it’s powerfully enlightening and it also talks of Co Governance true story bro.

         • I have done my own research Stephen and it tells me that Pre colonial Māoris life expectancy was 30 years old.

           No link….do you own research bro. It’s enlightening

           • Anker, focusing on the lurid and exaggerating the extreme that the mentality of ‘pakeha revisionist and bigots’ in general when discussing maori. Show us the evidence of your findings instead of ranting then we’ll have the opportunity to pick it apart and see if your assumptions are correct k?

5. The more I read here, the further I feel the Right pulling me closer, because that seems to be where the winners are.

   • I don’t think this is about winning and losing. To me this is about being allowed to be. Can’t see the right issuing orders as to what words you have to use when talking to your colleagues.

     • Personally I often find that you’re more likely to be successful in life, if you spend time with successful people. If you spend too much time with life’s losers, their pessimism, negativity & belief in failure, can infect you. Be with people who lift you up, not those who drag you down. The Left often seems to intent on pandering to the lowest common denominator, and dragging everyone down to that level.

       • what a cuck. fuck off and SUCK CESS then.

         • I guess you’d be the lowest common denominator then? A true “winner” from the Left. Pathetic. This country needs a good clean out.

           • Starting with you NC

             • I am the broom 😉

               • Intelligence of one.

               • No comment,no need to embarrass HHK, he makes a fool of himself.
                 A new broom sweeps clean and I’m sure it’s on its way?

     • Kraut except if you are David Seymour . He happily signals free speech but only when he says it is .

   • buhahaha keep the jokes coming lol

   • Too true.

   • And we know where the right pull you.

6. From the day the secretive He Puapau report was leaked, the government created the vacuum that allows the creation of an alienated populace.

   Government never explained to the TOTAL population what co-governance was and how it would work.

   That allows people like Batchelor to thrive.

   The relentless march to Maorification is ongoing and the 85% are becoming more agitated in this march. For example was there an absolute necessity to rename Britomart?

   The history and significance of the 85% in New Zealand is being whittled away (where did Gisborne go?) and in that vacuum the people born of this land that are part of the 85% move towards those who answer to allay their diminished significance.

   The rise of fascism is purely down to the government not bring ALL the people along in the quest to attain an ethnic centred governance model. What is in this model that serves the betterment of the 85%?

   • Gerrit, ‘From the day the secretive He Puapau report was leaked’??

     It wasn’t secretive and it certainly wasn’t leaked where do you perps get this BS from???
     You’re buying into your own BS try expanding your horizon?

     • https://www.teaomaori.news/he-puapua-national-still-troubled-separatist-document

       It was not tabled for three years. So not available for public scrutiny.

       “The document was leaked to National last year, which criticised it for suggesting among many other possibilities, co-governance and a Māori upper house in Parliament.

       Collins’ claims about it so so enraged the Māori Party’s Rawiri Waititi, he performed an impromptu haka in Parliament, resulting in him being kicked out for the day with his co-leader Debbie Ngarewa-Packer.”

       Me does think you protest too much. Maybe you could expand your horizon to take into consideration how the 85% think of the hidden (as in untabled for 3 years) government report. Covid excuse covers about two years, not the remaining 12 months.

       Perpetuating the myth that He Puapiua was not secretive from the majority of the populace is on you, not the 85%.

       • What bollocks, and the issue of Maori entitlement in the minds of pakeha goes back a century more when pakeha communities upon arrival were wanting Maori land called Maori entitled for refusing to sell, so there is an historical relationship between Pakeha propaganda and Maori presumed entilement.

         And this conspiracy that its was a secretive deal hidden from Pakeha is wishful thinking on your behalf and the article which also says that the JK Natz govt signed the UNDRIP which needed to be brainstormed and He PuaPua was that document which future govt could adopt or not simple.

         • John Key when he signed the UNDRIP claimmed it wouldn’t effect NZ constitutional arrangements. The reason Helen Clark didn’t sign up to UNDRIP was because she thought it would effect our constitutional arrangement.

           We have signed UNDRIP, but it is not compulsory for us to do anything about it. UNDRIP doesn’t use the words cogovernance.

           Even HePuapua says that NZ record on indigenous peoples is one of the best

           • Anker, that why you need to read the link in its entirety (very difficult) that you claim I need to specifically reference to prove my point!! If you want to see when maori and Pakeha agreed to co-Governance then the short answer is in the Maori version of article 2 which the Majority chiefs of the United tribes and others chiefs overwhelmingly signed, and in that version Maori never ceded sovereignty remembering the Maori version holds the legitimacy.

             The govts today IMO whether NZatz or Labs have a bipartisan approach to the TOW and being practical for instance the Te Aroha tribe, who were loyal to the crown co manage the lakes and geothermal waters in their rohe (region) or the Tuwharetoa tribes that weren’t aggressive to the crown, well they’re still major landholders in their rohe (region) and co-manage the Geothermal waters and other resources with local council. Pakeha people can’t expect to be too harsh and continuing to exclude Maori participation in our country that fascism the very thing that this pastor dude advocates. Are you one of them?

             • Maori aren’t excluded from participation in our country.
               Or maybe I’m missing something?
               Do you have examples of this exclusion?

               • yeah – you’re missing everything Uncle Tom. I mean – we watched the AB’s massacre Ka Mate for decades. enough fuckin tokenism. rangatahi won’t stand for that shit any more. Someone complained to me the other day about how Kiwirail and AT were whitewashing history for the “maoris” by renaming Britomart Station to Waitemata Station FFS – the irony is just fucking dripping off that one.

             • The revisionist view of the Treaty tacitly and conveniently ignores the past 150 years of history where Maori in fact did cede sovereignty because the majority of their actions prove this is what they understood. In 1860 at the Kohimarama Conference, the chiefs were asked again if they would reaffirm their loyalty to the Crown and they overwhelmingly did. Even appealing to the Crown (now represented through the NZ Government) for justice over issues, is recognition of that ceding of sovereignty. You are welcome to your own opinions, but not your own facts. “Sovereignty” is a many layered animal. When I wiggle my finger, I’m exercising sovereignty over my body, when I obey the speed limit, I am subjecting myself to the Crown, essentially agreeing with that sovereignty. When I sell my land, I sell it according to the rules laid down by that same sovereignty, but also according to my rights of sovereignty over said land. Appealing to the Waitangi Tribunal to settle injustices is just more evidence of the same. Maori ceded sovereignty and the past 180 years indubitably proves it.

       • As a member of this 85% I completely agree with Gerrit’s comments and as history teaches us if something is forced upon an unwilling populate a counter-revolution often results (the ‘White Terror’ in Revolutionary France’ for example).

         https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_White_Terror#:~:text=The%20White%20Terror%20(French%3A%20Terreur,swept%20across%20much%20of%20France.

         • James+Brown, but your link once again is someone and something to do with other countries not NZ/AO and usually choosing a fascistic figure again irrelevant to NZ/AO.

           Show examples of historic pakeha fascism in NZ/AO like Irishman Trevor Chute responsible for hunting down Maori women children and elderly raping and murdering them.

           Even the slick cunning Governor half Irish George Grey who was responsible for multiple ethnic cleansing campaigns murdering maori woman children and elderly remembering that he learnt his trait practicing on Irish people the template for colonizing the Maori.

           And wikipedia is unreliable as a source even they’ve admitted it.

           https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_is_not_a_reliable_source

       • It was never secret. It was a public document and Willie Jackson discussed the matter on TV.

         Politicians seam very reluctant to discuss the ideas or the document. Referencing HePuapua in comments to opinion pieces often gets you banned.

         It is a cool document but it leaves the reader with more question than answers.

         • Maybe it wasn’t a secret if you knew where to look to find a draft report but I don’t recall it being publically announced that policy work requiring a draft report was announced. Winston Peters who was Deputy Prime Minister at the time said he was never told about it. I guess it was only a secret if you hadn’t been told about it (let in on a the secret).

           • Joseph, Winston is a politician he tells lies for his own political gain he’ll even throw his own culture under the bus for political capital that why he’s electable he play the race card like Seymour

           • Granted. Those who tried to shine a light on the report was “silenced”.

7. 100,000 Blackshirts marching in Auckland would be an achievement that even Mosley would be proud of!
   The proto-fascist leftie wokeratti would join them too if they haven’t canceled themselves by then.

   I’d like to know how the bishop Tamaki feels about this now he has some competition. Maybe they could both team up for this gig?
   This could turn out to be interesting if it gets off the ground.

   • 100000 black shirts? Is no more likely to happen in NZ, than David Brown’s Marxist revolution. The real power on the Right, wears a nice suit, or khakis & a polo shirt. If violence is required, the power of the State will provide, no black/brown shirted thugs needed.

8. Watching the Video grudgingly on TDB of this scaremonger was actually quite amusing. He reference ‘Muriel Newman’ numerous times, she’s one of the founders of the NZCPR a far-right Maori hate group targeting Maori aspirations & the Treaty of Waitangi relentlessly. And the booklets that he was issuing to his audience had ‘Mike Butler’ as the author, another anti Maori figure that support ‘Hobsons Pledge’ in his condemnation of Maori generally.

   All the signs are their to create a fascist following with his backers being the same figures that have been pushing anti-Maori sentiments publicly for decades in the disguise of equality, democracy, and the power of the voting ballot, (One law for all) that eventually favours their ideology of racial dominance.

   • The report was secret. Labour never campaigned on it and as a former member of the party, I was never told about it. Labour use to send out all these surveys re what was important to me and cogovernance was never mentioned. Winston Peters the Deputy PM was not told about it before the 2020 election. A heavily deducted version was released and then someone leaked the full version.

     As Jim Bolger said last year the PM (JA) needs to explained to NZders what she means by cogovernance and where she intends to take the country to with it.

     • Well that has nothing to do with this particular comment of mine, but let’s just pause for a moment and look at the timeline of UNDRIP which successive nations around the world promulgated and sign in 2007.

       The United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples (UNDRIP) was adopted by the General Assembly on Thursday, 13 September 2007, by a majority of 144 states in favour, 4 votes against (Australia, Canada, New Zealand and the United States) and 11 abstentions (Azerbaijan, Bangladesh, Bhutan, Burundi, …

       Then 2010 with a JK Natz lead government passed the UNDRIP after the Americans, Canadians, Australians signed also being reassured that it didn’t affect private property right of pakeha and probably pressure from his coalition arrangement at the time Peter Sharples the Maori party.

       Not much happened until 2019, when the Labour-led government set up a working group tasked with coming up with a plan to make the declaration real. The working group named their plan He Puapua.

       The document itself explains the name: “He Puapua means ‘a break’, which usually refers to a break in the waves. Here it refers to the breaking of the usual political and societal norms and approaches” that been detrimental to Maori community.

       “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.”

       These aims are not just concerned with land rights, which are being addressed through the TOW but also with things like health, education, economic growth, broadcasting, criminal justice and political participation.

       He Puapua, the group’s report, was provided to the government in 2019. However, the government didn’t accept a recommendation that the report be promptly released for public discussion. According to Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern, this was due to the risk it could be “misconstrued” as government policy.

       Whatever the reason it’s available online and was released last year so there.

9. It could be argued that fascism is a form of socialism, but one based on collective national or racial interests, rather than class interests. Fascism has the same subservience of the individual to the state/nation/party. After all, Mussolini and Hitler started out as socialists.

   Fascism does gain a lot of appeal from the specter of a revolutionary left wing group emerging and taking power, because it appears as the only effective/vigorous alternative to that revolutionary government.

   If Batchelor is shouted down or cancelled, all that does is prove his case for the need to fight back against the cultural Marxists.

   • Its called ‘Free speech’ Ada, Protesting his rhetoric you know the thing that the right keep virtual signaling to the masses!!

     • Kind of missing the point: your energetic reaction to him proves his argument.

       • Ada, just an opinion like yours nothing to do with being energetic chump

   • so fascism is not socialism at all is it ada?

     the whole nazis were socalist lie is a rightwing meme that gets nazis off the hook for their crimes…whataboutism of the first water

     • Don’t the Scandinavians have a form of national socialism – where everyone buys in to the collective but are still free to be individuals. New Zealand is tainted by little hitlers who need a scapegoat aka Maori. It would be a lot easier if we all just sided with Maori and put in to the collective. We can still persue individual freedoms and capital endeavours but it would be for us all, and not just those hoarding capital and the crown doing the bidding. There has got to be a better way than all this polarized adversarial me me me shit.

       • well billd they did have in the 30s you are conflating social democracy and a stultifyingly homogenious society with nazism the swedes havn’t sterilised a ‘wayward girl’ since the 70s when their flirtation with eugenics ended

10. sorry for the double posting

11. Wokism is hyper fuel for alienating the middle. It doesn’t have to be a sane or coherent proposition, just a position opposite to Co-governance and the woke left along with NZ demographics will do the rest for you.
    I’m sure there’d be a dirty politics link to kick this all off there if you scratched around enough. The genesis of these movements is almost always “assisted” by a cats paw

12. Anyone have a link to the Stop Co Governance Dargaville meeting video? It is mentioned in the article but I can’t find it with google.

    • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ny7ULqmwn-I

      • No that is Warkworth but thanks for trying.

13. NZ Natzos held sway in the provinces (as in Parliamentary Electorates, local Govt. etc.) for so long because of this very tactic of micro meetings and networking–the Fire Stations, Police Stations, Business Associations, Lodges, sports clubs, service clubs and social associations and even calf club and School BOTs, all generally reinforcing reactionary conservative messaging.

    “We’re blue around here maayte…” You did not get the job if you disagreed–various contractors, trades and particularly young workers have told me over the years, and I directly heard some of the banter and bullying myself when building my house in the Far North. The lead contractor stopped the job for one day when I challenged him! but then decided getting paid trumped his tory principles.

    Time waits for no one…and it won’t wait the grey hairs either. Human mortality will deal with some of this phenomenon and new gens, the younger browner sections and their allies will deal with some of it too. Societal unity is what we need more of at this time–not this fascist lite retread crap–Cyclones make no distinction between white supremacists and the rest of the population.

    • Totally agree with your sentiment Tiger Mountain

14. So Fascism (which figuratively means “bundle of sticks” and literally means “Trade Unions”) is a “Far Right” idea system, where corporations and government merge.
    OK………. Seems to be socialist to me, something you guys love.
    As a “Far Right” libertarian myself, if the state wants to get involved in my business, i dont care if they are marxist or fascist, they are both a threat to the freedom loving individual.

    • Political illiteracy to put it mildly.

      What is so hilarious about libertarian fantasists is they want big State out of their lives, yet still expect to live as consumers buying all manner of socially produced goods. Plus, be users of State provided services (via taxation is theft of course). Yes–these fuckers expect highways to be provided to drive their Porsche Cayenne on and jails to to keep the burglars away, electricity via a previously working class built national grid, oh, and armies to put down the commos. But keep out of my life!!!

      I might just respect someone off grid that grew, fished and hunted and had made tracks for travel–but in the end human society is a co-operative venture whether some like that or not.

      • hear hear tiger….they don’t have the sense to realise how stupid they are

15. Julian Bachelor would get no oxygen if the left hadn’t lost the plot so badly, and if the mainstream right had the guts and good sense to effectively counter or neutralize the wokeist agenda.

    “The Dreadful Logic of Critical Race Theory and Radical Gender Ideology” might make for a more interesting article.

    Said ideologies are metastasizing through all our institutions. Here’s the TEC demanding that universities end disparities in pass rates and degree completions between Polynesian and other NZers, on pain of fines https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/453303/tertiary-institutions-given-10-years-to-end-minority-pass-rate-disparity
    Apparently the TEC thinks low Maori pass rates and degree completions don’t reflect the well-documented upstream factors of poverty, family dysfunction and low rates of school attendance – no, it’s because universities are racist.

    And here’s Wokesafe virtue-signalling that it’s “fundamentally wrong that workplace injury rates are higher for Māori, Pacific peoples and migrant workers.” https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/131513602/worksafe-criticises-rate-of-workplace-injuries-suffered-by-pasifika-mori-and-migrants
    Apparently Wokesafe thinks high accident rates of Maori and Pasifika don’t simply reflect their over-representation in dangerous manual work – no, it must be because employers are racist.

    • “Apparently the TEC thinks low Maori pass rates and degree completions don’t reflect the well-documented upstream factors of poverty, family dysfunction and low rates of school attendance ….”

      Yes, the RNZ article does seem to suggest this. But perhaps the TEC has forgotten or chosen to disregard previous evidence. Back in the day I knew something about this. Copying Tony Blair’s manta of ‘education, education, education’ the 90s saw tertiary institutions widen participation, the bums-on-seats approach, but before long ‘achievement’ became the focus, as measured in course completions. And yes, the long brown tail of underachievement was confirmed. Considerable resources went into getting to the bottom of this and to summarize one such longitudinal study, four factors became apparent:
      – what individual students bring in terms of capabilities; after all, not all students are equal in this regard when open entry is the policy
      – institutional support, student wellbeing, pastoral care and the like
      – the curriculum and how it is taught
      – outside factors, eg, intergenerational poverty, family dynamics and the like

      To claim universities are racist is the easy way out. Far more is happening. But post-He Puapau I can see how racism gets bandied around. Yes, some institutions may be better than others in providing culturally sensitive pastoral care. But they do have committees and people on the ground to do this work, arguably people who know the issues and want to make a difference. Yes, the curriculum may always not reflect the cultural knowledge of diverse populations, and a one-size approach to pedagogy rarely suits everyone. Let’s face it, universities were once the domain of the privileged and this lingers on. But it is changing. One big question is how and should cultural knowledge be integrated into STEM subjects. Indeed other subjects. That was a topic on TDB earlier this week.

      Isn’t the battle mostly over the legitimacy of knowledge and culturally sensitive pedagogy?

    • 100% Pope

16. This is a bit like the fantasy piece where the farmers of Gore were going to rise up in armed resistance because of the gun buy back.
    A push back on unmandated co governance is entirely justified, it doesn’t make anyone nazis.
    Dividing the country on race is inevitably going to create disharmony, – Mr Trotter has written extensively pointing this out-and it has done, that’s on the Labour government not the inconsequential Christian conservatives.

    • + ! KC. Self-styled “progressives” periodically engage in scaremongering about the supposed power of the Christian right in NZ, including Martyn with his description of the insipid Luxon as a “Handmaiden’s Tale-level anti-abortionist”. Never mind what the woke are doing to our institutions – it’s the Christian right we should be worried about!

    • Good summary Keepcalmcarryon – one of the few commenters to stick to the obvious reality.

17. Co-governance is a terrible idea and surely the government must have realised that pursuing it relentlessly and in secret would drive people towards extremists like this guy and the ACT party? But they went ahead and pursued it anyway, just dumb politics.

18. A good CT article and one that didn’t trigger my woke middle class sensibilities for once. This is the type of intelligent and coherent analysis I always used to enjoy from CT.
    The strategy outlined has been extremely successful in the US and the majority of state level legislatures are right-wing and busy dismantling progressive policies no matter how trivial and inconsequential they may be.
    It also works in the UK where any discussion that turns a vulnerable minority into a major threat galvanizes the electorate like nothing else. It was the EU a few years ago and now it’s refugees – UK voters are like junkies for this stuff – even the UK Labour party is fully on board criticizing the government for not sending enough refugees “back where they came from”.
    Will it work in NZ? There’s definitely an audience for it judging by Acts polling but one would hope that most NZer’s are just to laid back to take this seriously.

19. Chris,
    I respect your opinions on almost everything you say. However, calling people like Mr Batchelor “fascist” does you a disservice. It is very easy to throw around gratuitous germs such as fascist, Nazi, far right, etc. This name calling only detracts from reasoned argument. How much more of a fascist is he compared to the regime under Jacinda Ardern? Now, that was fascist.
    Also, by “Pakeha”, I presume you mean New Zealanders of EuropeN descent, or “white fullas”. It’s not only to them that co-governance and race-based priveleges are an anathema. There is an ignored group of we Indians, Chinese, Korean, Malays, Africans, and Polynesians to whom these issues are beyond the pale. Many of them and their forbears chose to leave their homelands to escape truly discriminatory regimes. They chose New Zealand because it was a safe and egalitarian country where you could succeed on your merit.
    How wrong their decisions have turned out to be. This is not a safe country and willl be even less so if we allow the thugs veto of threatened violence against those who stand against the privileging of one race in our once meritocratic country.
    Now, the thugs who would deter freedom to express their views by protest are the true fascists.

    • Ravi, the cliche is if you don’t like living here because of the assumed Violent apartheid thuggery going down in NZ/AO then you’re free to leave? And Indians, Chinese, japanese, Malaysians that live in our beautiful country are they oppressed??? Is there Maori gangs attacking them??

      This is all reactionary fantasy stuff that you’ve made up!!

      And the word Pakeha means European in Maori, there’s no conspiratorial hidden agenda remembering that you’re also in the South Pacific where the Polynesian are from, and you believe Maori are privileged?? Try being a Maori for one day? You definitely wouldn’t be able to handle the discrimination Maori face in their own country. True story bro

      • Indians, Chinese, japanese, Malaysians that live in our beautiful country are they oppressed??? Is there Maori gangs attacking them??
        Unfortunately try telling that porky to the dairy owners, the retailers, nurses, ambulance drivers and firefighters, the supermarket employees who are abused, assaulted and insulted racially on a daily basis by mainly Māori gangs. True story bro.

        • Wooly bugger, ‘Unfortunately try telling that porky to the dairy owners, the retailers, nurses, ambulance drivers and firefighters, the supermarket employees who are abused, assaulted and insulted racially on a daily basis by mainly Māori gangs.’

          Got proof?

      • It is probably true to say that Pakeha is the least discriminated group in New Zealand.

        But I can assure you that the day you arrive in NZ or any country for that matter, in search of a better future, you are subjected to prejudice.

        What defines one is how one responds to the prejudice.

    • How fucking ridiculous was that.

      Lols, I’m going to reserve certain words for myself too.

    • Totally agree Ravi and I am fairly sure that whilst Batchelor does refer to the English from time to time, his emphasis is on all other New Zealanders who are not Maori. So Chris is wrong to say Batchelor is trying to build a mass movement of Pakeha NZers. Being passionate about equal democracy does not imply being a white supremacist or indeed, anti Maori.

      • I bet Bachelor wishes that non Maori will support his anti-Maori stance and just exactly how are Maori oppressing non-maori Fantail? this seems to be the recurring theme of rhetoric coming mainly from the right. Please leave a detailed explanation thanks?

        I did see a man with what looked like a Kippah (Jewish) sitting in the front row of the picture above? You think he might have an issue with Maori aspirations?

        Self determination written into International law is how Jews were recognized as a state in 1948 even though the truth is that they ethnically cleansed the Indigenous palestinians and proclaimed themselves as a Jewish state in Palestine.

        • A man who looked like a Kippah? Woo Hoo what’s new Stephen? I imagine he was just observing how things were panning out. Divide and rule and all that jazz. Hallelujah!

        • just exactly how are Maori oppressing non-maori Fantail? this seems to be the recurring theme of rhetoric coming mainly from the right. Please leave a detailed explanation thanks?

          Here you go:
          I went to the doctor for a colon cancer preventative checkup,
          She said there is a checkup but only available to Maori and PI.
          I’m 58 and not Maori or PI.
          This checkup is free for Maori and PI from age 55, for all others, 60 or 65 not sure.

          That’s institutionalised racism and oppression. Not sure if Maori did that, or ‘the government’. My guess is Maori pushing the government to do it.

          Two weeks later visited the docs. Sign out front on the blackboard:
          ‘flu vaccine actions here: free to Maori and PI.’
          My cost? $50.

          You’re welcome.

          • Health policy is I suspect driven by data and the data says that more Maori and PI get/ die from colon cancer. Likewise the data around influenza/ CoV19. No evidence, just heard or read it somewhere. So yes, Maori and PI are given priority in a health system that is stretched for resources. And to address equity. It’s not personal. A bit like your GP saying you need to take this or that medication because the stats say you’re in a risk group. Yep, I get you’re feeling discriminated against, pissed off – along with a good many others it seems- but to call it “institutional racism and oppression” is a bit of a stretch Alan M.

            • + 1 Bozo, well said.

    • @Ravi,
      I am very aware of your reality. So many Pakehas now have friends or relatives by marriage who are of other ethnic groups with distinctive and distinguished old cultures. My sister has a Chinese daughter in law and has been for over forty years a devotee in the Self Realization movement founded last century by the Indian Yogi Paramahansa Yogananda. She has had and still has Indian, Japanese and East European friends in this organization. Usually other ethnic groups don’t come forward because they risk being coarsely attacked by religiously zealous Neo – Marxist (Bolshevist) Yagodas like Stephen.

      • Nice story Archonblatter but again you’re missing something like evidence

        • You keep calling for evidence,
          Yet refuse to Pro ide any yourself to back your claims.

          Archon is not your mummy.

        • You keep calling for evidence,
          Yet refuse to Pro ide any yourself to back your claims.

          Archon is not your mummy.

20. “Hate speech” is what the Left like to call the right of everyone in New Zealand to “to seek, receive, and impart information and opinions of any kind in any form.”

21. the Christian evangelist Julian Batchelor
    Why Christian – it may be a broad church but it isn’t supposed to be a camouflage net for mischievous even malicious rabble rousers.

22. 3 things come to mind.

    1. This would never have happened if the Labour Govt had an express mandate pref. by referendum or by at least mentioning this to the voting public before the election and then educating and debating and bringing people with them. Now we are all in the shit and the responsibility lies at Labour’s door.
    2. Why is Batchelor being named a racist and a fascist?

    I think he is entirely wrong to use the term War and to talk about Maori Tribal elite explicitly and he certainly resorts to hyperbole, rarking up and dubious sources. But there is either a grain of truth in what he says or in other cases, express truth across a number of issues. I actually agree with much of what he says but it doesnt mean I agree because I am anti Maori or think Maori dont deserve more redress and some element of Co Management. I think he raises points that should be widely discussed and understood in NZ.

    3. I think that the bullying and slur laden tactics of the nouveau ‘Left’ have brought us to this place (See Leah Panapa’s enforced mea culpa today) and the Greens trying to deplatform the latest transgender commentator. And sad as it is, I think people who disagree with what is going on (in general, not solely co Governance) should stand up and demand that their voices be heard. Last I looked we still lived in a democracy. If it takes numbers marching on parliament to get our politicians to resolve this issue effectively then people should do it. Nobody wants to stand on the street with a placard and be called a racist, fascist, hater or whatever but that is exactly what the opposing side is counting on so that no dissenting voices can be heard ever.

    And now Stephen, you can have at me as you invariably do.

    • To be fair, I rewatched Batchelor’s speech today and can see a number of times in there where he was racist. The topics he raised were largely relevant but his assumption that the Treaty Industry is a fraud and that Maori are only in it for the money is I have to say blatantly racist. And there were other similar instances.

      • Oh man Fantail you surprised me calling Batchelor a racist which is what the fuss is all about!! Maori people suffer racism systemically, can maori be racist of course but Maori don’t have the numbers or the power to institute it on a systemic level pakeha do and have done such.

        Moving forward we are in a very good space of achieving great things for our paradise in the South Pacific and Batchelor rhetoric is not the path where we need to be going down

        • Are you a racist Stephen.?

          Next question :

          Is everyone a racist?

          Next question,

          Is it useful to accuse anyone of being a racist?

23. Who are these cultural Marxists, can you point out any of these people please.

    because quite frankly never seen nor engaged with one.

    • they’re like the ‘culture war’ non existant, the right snowflakes invented it so they could attack some undefended trenches and claim victory

    • Cultural marxism is tarnished evolving phrase built on bullshit…

      Anders Behring Breivik was a nasty stupid sex starved mass murdering moron ,,, this idiotic psycho’s No1 fan and disciple was the inadequate mutant killer Brenton Tarrent.

      Both of these freaks were obsessed with ‘Cultural Marxism’ ,,,, and this video explains the basis of their delusions. ,,,In their own words,pictures and memes.

      Originally downloaded from youtube,,, and yes it was originally up as a Brevick tribute/promotional video .

      it’s 6 minute segment — https://rumble.com/v2duamk-cultural-marxism-maddness.html

      • Cultural marxism is a tarnished evolving phrase built on bullshit…

24. I love people who make up shit and man Ada you made up a lot of shit. So sending lots of love your way.

    Hitler was never a socialist, read Mein Kampf it will let you know that one

    The German and Italian corporations used fascism to keep capitalism going in the face of a socialist challenge. But the socialism that was the challenge was, social democracy. Hardly Marxist

    No fascist government has ever won a majority, its never gained popular support. It’s been a fringe ideology, which has had powerful friends to make sure working people were screwed over.

    Finally who are these cultural marxists your banging on about? Point out three, just three. Can’t – like all bat shit crazy ideas, may sound good on paper, but in the real world it’s just more bullshit.

    • @Ignatius,
      Cultural Marxism came out of a group in Germany in the thirties called the Frankfurt School. Look it up. They subsequently took refuge in the US. Since then their theories have filtered into Universities in the West and are now reaching torrential proportions and causing ruin and devastation on all horizons.
      Everything is about funding. Wars, so called revolutions, Red, Orange or any other colour of the rainbow, all you have to discover is where the funding comes from. Great deluges of it.
      Did you come down in the last cyclone? No worries mate, you’ll probably be sucked back up in the next one.

      • You have done what all idiots do, not answer a simple question.
        I don’t want to know you theory – the question was name three people, but you could not.
        You got nothing, but some crazy conspiracy theory.
        It’s tiresome and just let everyone know how fucking crazy the right are in this country.

25. I think Chris Trotter and others need to have a read of former Treaty Negotiations Minister Christopher Finlayson’s comments about co-governance and how it works.

    https://e-tangata.co.nz/nzoa-pijf/chris-finlayson-co-governance-should-be-embraced-not-feared/

    After reading this article, do you still believe that co-governance is this monster that so many people seem to think it is?

    • The only people who think it is a monster are those who dont want to lose being top dog.

    • It’s deliberate disinformation to compare the limited co governance for local administration made in specific treaty settlements, to what is proposed in He Puapua and is being implemented nationally in the likes of three waters without proper democratic process.
      That people are relying on omission, non debate and outright dishonesty to sell co governance tells us an awful lot.

    • The problem is the link above and one that Stephen posted, are both on sites that the majority of people would not visit – or know where to visit. If it’s nothing to fear, why haven’t the MSM splashed these reports across their sites, especially the He Puapua report. After all the government paid $55m to the MSM, so why are the MSM reluctant to publish these items – or is the government (with the $55m bribe) holding them back….

26. What people fail to realize is that NZ is a right wing neo liberal farming country who hate women slightly less than the working class. The unions had to be imported. Muldoon and his ilk hated the fact that working class people deserved better. New Zealand hates the thought of sharing their country with anyone let alone our indigenous Maori. People are often told to quote “ go back to their own country”. You can see their divisive thoughts in groundswell, “pretty communist” comes to mind. These are the only people who can say what they like, the rest of us are woke with not an original thought. The right wing under the guise of democracy hounded Jacinda Ardern out of office. We have Judith Collins and her henchman Slater who loves to play dirty and deep down so does most of National and ACT. Winston Peters is opportunistic and runs with the hares and hunts with the hounds , as can be seen with his visit to the parliament protest. Its a matter of “don’t do as i do do as i say”. David Seymour enjoys saying what he likes as long as it’s not about him “ cry baby “ comes to mind. Religious people like Luxon have no place in political leadership because they will strive to please god and bugger the rest of us, anti abortion comes to mind. We like to pretend we are a liberal democracy but in fact we are a highly conservative bunch who try to pretend we are not .

    • So Queeny where do we go from here?

    • Queeny Don’t despair – NZrs are not quite as bad as you paint. What you are suffering from is a lack of restraint. Much of what you say is correct, but you carry your claims to hyperbole. Then you give those dreadful hobby argufiers many points to attack, and in defending your argument, attention is diverted from the growing list problems which face bland rejection by those with power to better them.

      There has been so much hot air floating away like helium gas, and we need to contain it and scorch the backsides of the dilettantes and robotic-like greedy accumulators who will sell your granny for a buck, (their grannies are perched somewhere out of the way).

      • Bob first of all we need truth and fairness in the media. We need truth behind the headlines not some person in Gore who is unhappy with the government because she couldn’t get a park outside her favorite shop. We need the likes of Jack Tame who is supposed to be impartial not giving his own opinion on co governance then putting his own spin on it while interviewing politicians. Next we need to realize people with an opinion are not all woke. Tell me how is it freedom of speech when David Seymour says it is. He detests opinions that are not his who really wants to listen to spewing out hatred and division from people who don’t know or don’t even live in NZ.There are many nexts however the most in important next is to recognize the Treaty of Waitangi as a founding document and not be afraid some other person is getting more than you.

      • Greywarbler its not despair its the truth and a general opinion. Hyperbole whatever !

27. I’m with Julian.

28. “Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy.” A quote by a fascist? Nope – Winston Churchill, probably the man who saved the world from fascism.

    • His war govt was as socialist as it gets.

29. along with stalin larry so your argument becomes a little shakey.

30. His war govt was as socialist as it gets.

31. Fascism grows where truth doesn’t have a place at the top table. See NZ’s effective resistence to it in the 30s.

    The ghast of Roge lingers over everything in NZ.

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