Selective outrage


On 16 December 2021, the United Nations tabled Resolution A/RES/75/169, calling for combating glorification of Nazism, neo-Nazism and other practices that contribute to fuelling contemporary forms of racism’. A 67% majority, including Israel, voted for it. The only nations to vote against were the United States and Ukraine. Both New Zealand and Australia abstained! So did the NATO allies.

The Israeli historian, Professor Ilan Pappé, has recognised that we must never, for one moment, be “indifferent to news and images coming to us from the war zone in the Ukraine: traumatised children, streams of refugees, sights of buildings ruined by bombing and the looming danger that this is only the beginning of a human catastrophe at the heart of Europe.” But selective outrage is no help in discovering the underlying causes of the tragedy. While Russia’s violation of international law is being extensively reported, as it should be, the same news media turn a blind eye to NATO crimes and those of its allies. Our news media also ignore the victims’ pleas for justice.

The US massively-funded Ukraine with billions of dollars to manipulate the overthrow of its democratically-elected government, recorded proof of that has been available online since 2014In 2017, at a time when it seems the newspaper was more open, the Washington Post warned us that a Ukrainian war with Russia should never allow us to forget about the power of neo-Nazism in the Ukraine. Ukraine has the only Army in the world with a neo-Nazi component, the Azov Battalion; it formally joined the Ukrainian National Guard in 2014. The Battalion’s badge is strikingly similar to that of the 2nd Waffen SS Panzer Division emblem in World War Two. NBC News has drawn attention to a German TV programme that Shows Nazi Symbols on Helmets of Ukraine Soldiers.” Neo-Nazis make up less than ten per cent of the political spectrum in Ukraine – but their influence is immense. A group of Western news media, including US-funded Radio Free Europe (RFE), the World Jewish Congress, the Simon Wiesenthal Center, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and Freedom House, have issued a joint report warning that Kiev is giving way to far-right gangs operating with impunity. Ukraine’s Azov movement is inspiring right-wing racism across the globe, including New Zealand. In 2019, the Australian, Brenton Tarrant, wearing an Azov Battalion symbol, attacked two mosques in Christchurch, murdering 51 worshippers. Tarrant had earlier visited several East European countries and, while producing his manifesto, wrote that he was in Ukraine. NATO’s Atlantic Council, funded by US and European governments, promoted Ukraine’s neo-Nazi Azov Battalion and in June, 2014 published a report called The Battle For Mariupol, glorifying the anti-Russian movement as heroes. Most people are unaware of these aspects of the present violence and suffering in Ukraine because our mainstream news media, in harmony with the wishes of our ‘traditional allies’, only selectively report what happens. In New Zealand, RT, the Russian TV news channel, reported the UN Resolution on combating Nazism. It now appears that Sky TV has silenced RT in New Zealand.

The mainstream news media do not report the shooting and killing carried out by Ukraine’s far-right forces against people in Ukraine – Russian-speaking (29.6% of the population) and Roma (gypsies). The Nation, on 22 February 2019, reported: “Today, increasing reports of far-right violence, ultra-nationalism and erosion of basic freedoms are giving the lie to the West’s initial euphoria. There are neo-Nazi pogroms against the Roma, rampant attacks on feminists and LGBT groups, book bans, and state sponsored glorification of Nazi collaborators.” Unsurprisingly, the Ukrainian establishment is determinedly pro-Israel. President Volodymyr Zelensky withdrew Ukraine from the United Nations Committee on the Exercise of the Inalienable Rights of the Palestinian People and stated that the only tragedy in Gaza was the one suffered by the Israelis.

Professor Ilan Pappé observes that “those of us experiencing, reporting and digesting the human catastrophes in Palestine cannot escape the hypocrisy of the West and we can point to it without belittling, for a moment, our human solidarity and empathy with victims of any war. We need to do this, since the moral dishonesty underwriting the deceitful agenda set by the Western political elites and media will once more allow them to hide their own racism and impunity as it will continue to provide immunity for Israel and its oppression of the Palestinians.”

The news media and world leaders fall silent when Israel uses its military might to assault defenceless communities, villages and towns, not just in Palestine but elsewhere, including in Lebanon. No sanctions have been called for, let alone imposed. Instead the peace-oriented Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement has been ignored, vilified and even outlawed.

New Zealand’s Foreign Affairs Minister, Nanaia Mahuta, tells us: “Russia’s actions are a flagrant breach of fundamental international rules” and says, “We stand with the people of Ukraine impacted by this conflict. Our thoughts are with them.” We are still waiting for her to reply to our questions regarding Israel’s invasive, brutal exploitation of the Palestinian people and our country’s support for Israel at the recent Agritech seminar.

When will the Minister admit that Israel’s actions are also a flagrant breach of fundamental international rules? Are her thoughts with the Palestinian people? Will she ever stand by them?

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Leslie Bravery is a Londoner with vivid World War Two memories of the Nazi blitz on his home town. In 1947/1948 His father explained to him what was happening to the Palestinians thus: “Any ideology or political movement that creates refugees in the process of realising its ambitions must be inhuman and should be opposed and condemned as unacceptable.” What followed confirmed this assessment of the Zionist entity a hundredfold. Now a retired flamenco guitarist, with a lifelong interest in the tragedy of what happened to the Palestinian people, he tries to publicise their plight. Because the daily injustices they suffer barely get a mention in the mainstream news media, Leslie edits/compiles a daily newsletter, In Occupied Palestine, for the Palestine Human Rights Campaign. These days, to preserve his sanity, he enjoys taking part in a drama group whenever possible!


  1. Thank you Leslie. It is great to have your truthful ,reasoned item . Hopefully it will help educate the ill informed Russophobes on the history of the Ukraine.

    • So you won’t be voting for ACT or the Maori Party then eh? At least they aren’t fussed on special legislation to be used as an attack dog against one entity whilst doing nothing about numerous serial arseholes that indulge in similar war abuses.
      No love for Putin or any other miscreants or the usual hypocrisy thanks. Kindly take your warped and immoral eurocentric views and stick them where they belong Kerry – preferably sideways so you feel the pain!

    • Where on earth do you get the idea that this a pro Putin piece? I for one put my hand up, to say I don’t know enough about the in’s and out’s of the Ukraine and its certainly interesting to learn more. West good, Putin bad is pretty simplistic. Personally I think Putin is an arsehole but if history has taught us anything it is to be very careful when you build up one side against tyranny only to find the ones you helped were not so desirable either.

      There were a bunch of blokes that US backed big time with stinger missiles etc, in Afghanistan to thwart the Russians. Before long those blokes, or their alumni, were flying planes into the WTC, bombing the London underground, and from memory blowing up a train in Spain. It pays to know what genie will come up out when you uncork the bottle

      • James Brown –” Plenty of neo-Nazi groups in Russia as well” ,,,, “but I suppose that doesn’t fit your narrative” ,,,,

        “With its message that includes terrorist fanboying and literally worship of Hitler, Wotanjugend continues to operate openly in Ukraine, using the country as a base to grow and to spread its message of hate worldwide.”

        Wotanjugend also promoted a Russian-language translation of the Christchurch shooter’s manifesto

        “Ukraine pledged it would prosecute anyone distributing the manifesto. But Wotanjugend has not removed a separate post praising the shooter, nor have they removed the disturbing livestreamed video of the attacks that they had shared.”

        Glory to Ukraine indeed.

        • I am not disputing that there are some neo-Nazi’s in Ukraine but I am highlighting that there are also neo-Nazi’s in Russia and also just because some of the Russian armoured vehicles are now openly displaying Soviet flags that will similarly not mean that all Russian soldiers are communists who want to exterminate millions in gulags.

      • Wheel: “Personally I think Putin is an arsehole…”

        Why would you think this? Do you know him personally?

  2. Plenty of neo-Nazi groups in Russia as well (as well as the Sparta Battalion in Donetsk) but I suppose that doesn’t fit your narrative Leslie . .

    “At one point, there were some Ukrainians who collaborated with Nazis,” explains Jeffrey Veidlinger, author of In the Shadow of the Shtetl: Small-Town Jewish Life in Soviet Ukraine. “This is why Putin can use that term, because it has resonance and people are familiar with this history of Ukraine having sympathies with the Nazis, but this was 80 years ago, and isn’t reflective of the current Ukrainian Government…It’s a meaningless term when Putin uses it. He’s not afraid of Nazis in Ukraine. He’s afraid of democracy in Ukraine. And he recognizes that as democracy encroaches upon Russia as it comes closer to Russia, there’s a threat that those people will demand democracy.”

    • Add the open official Russian state policy of extreme nationalism to the neo-Nazi groups in Russia.
      I do not agree with any kind of nacizm or neo-nacizm, but we should not forget that this is a war of totalitarianism against democracy.

      • Yeah Alexandra- and force-played under US rules in accordance with their faux-democracy that is supposed to be adopted everyone else while the rules strangely don’t apply to them.
        Some random observations:
        1. US has led the sanctions charge against Russia having acted just as egregiously on numerous occasions without consequences.
        2. While forcing others to apply sanctions that will cut to their bones, the US will not pay much and stand to make extortionate profits.
        3. All of a sudden, the US wants to play ball with countries they have fucked over on the basis that they were run by despots (eg Venezuela).
        4. What you regard as totalitarian states have in many cases bought their populations out of poverty. Where has a democracy achieved that since the US birthed neo-liberalism.

        • Yes, aom, I am not blind (hope), the democracy is the most difficult system to live under but the beauty of it is that there is always the hope for change which you do not have under totalitarian regime. And that hope is still there for the US as well.
          And look, the migrants wants to come to Europe, to the USA but very few to Russia. Why?
          Maybe people underestimate a bit the feelings of people who had experienced the totalitarian regime of the soviet USSR which continues mutatis mutandis in today’s Russia. When post communist countries were making decisions about their membership in EU and NATO, people were well aware of the negatives but chose that knowing that you cannot stay absolutely neutral in the Central Europe and the alternative would be to come under the influence of Russia.

          • Well if it is all so good outside the Soviet Union, why did so many states have to be rolled over with colour revolutions, coups and wars?
            It seems you think people subscribe to idealisms when in fact, survival is far more important to daily life for most and politics is a remote notion. Of course, we don’t get our propaganda from the grass-roots but megaphoned through various media so how credible do you think your comments are when they are based on hope?
            Hope it doesn’t escape your notice that having been left alone instead of being ‘USed’, the Ukrainians, despite being described as the most corrupt European state, could probably got on just fine with Russia and vice versa. Don’t forget, Ukraine was pretty reliant on transmission fees they charged Europe for an income from Russian gas.

        • One more example: have you ever thought that Russia would acknowledge its guilt in shooting down the MH17 aircraft? If it happened to US you could have at least a hope that the opposition would achieve it.

          • Yeah, like with Iranian flight 655 eh? Isn’t the MH17 incident still in dispute? Seem to recall the most significant players are still not satisfied.
            What has that to do with the topic anyway?

            • Just to show that nobody expects Russia to admitt their guilt and that if it happened in a democracy you would have hope that opposition would hold the penetrators responsible. That is the difference between totalitarianusm and democracy. And the MH 17 incident was concluded by the Dutch part who was about to proceed to court prosecution.

      • James Brown — “Plenty of neo-Nazi groups in Russia as well” ,,,,

        and James is correct , for exampleli-“Wotanjugend — Wotanjugend also promoted a Russian-language translation of the Christchurch shooter’s manifesto that got more than 25,000 views.,,, In a post after the attacks, Wotanjugend called the shooter a “vengeful Viking who has definitely earned his place in Valhalla.”

        “Today the self-described “hammer of National Socialism” is based in Ukraine and, for all intents and purposes, is part of the country’s far-right Azov movement that is trying to expand its domestic and international influence.”

      • I thought it a war of American, Ukrainian and Russian oligarchies. Democracy comes a distant second.

        • Have you seen any oligarchs fighting? Do you think that the Ukrainians would voluntarily die for their oligarchs?

      • ACD: “…this is a war of totalitarianism against democracy.”

        Oh really? So: Russian democracy against Ukrainian totalitarianism, is it?

    • James Brown: “Plenty of neo-Nazi groups in Russia as well (as well as the Sparta Battalion in Donetsk…”

      The Sparta Battalion isn’t neo-Nazi. And Donetsk isn’t in Russia, come to that.

      Best not to read articles from the 1990s and assume that the information is still current.

      Russian authorities went COINTELPRO on that group until it shattered like glass.

      The rebranded part of RNU under Barkashov inserted itself into Donbass (back when there was no strong central authority and anybody could show up and play at militias), but those guys were kicked out or killed, while the Ukrainians accepted their equivalents into the army and promoted their leaders.

      The RNU article still mentions the incident where the Moscow mayor’s security detail kidnapped Barkashov and forced him at gunpoint to deliver a live broadcast apologising to ‘Jews, Niggers and Caucasians’ [sic].

      ““At one point, there were some Ukrainians who collaborated with Nazis,” explains Jeffrey Veidlinger, author of In the Shadow of the Shtetl: Small-Town Jewish Life in Soviet Ukraine. “”

      Well, he would say that, wouldn’t he. That makes it sound so benign, when it’s anything but.

      The anti-Jewish stuff – a core tenet of Nazism, neo- or not, has a deep history in western Ukraine. In his book “The Hare with Amber Eyes”, Edmund de Waal recounts the history of his Jewish ancestors, who fled the pogroms of Galicia to live in Odessa, and eventually elsewhere in Europe.

      During the last war, Ukrainians collaborated with the Nazis to either kill or deport the local Jewish population.

      The current government, comprised of parties parachuted into power by the US in 2013-14, is neo-Nazi. That’s how those parties characterised themselves at the time, though they don’t use the term around English-speakers nowadays. The government is ultra-nationalist: ethno-nationalist, and is attempting to eliminate the Russian language from the Ukraine, despite the very large numbers of Ukrainians who are ethnically Russian and whose native language is Russian. It has introduced laws mandating the use of Ukrainian and prohibiting the use of Russian. It is much worse than westerners realise.

      Since 2014, the Ukrainian government, assisted by neo-Nazi volunteer battalions, has bombarded the Donbass, causing (last I looked) around 14000 deaths and much destruction. It has refused to implement the Minsk Accords. The crime of Donbass citizens? Declaring independence after the US-sponsored putsch of 2014. What sort of government does that to its own citizens?

      If that ethno-nationalism thing is familiar to readers, it’s what’s being attempted here, although it doesn’t go so far as to prohibit the use of English. But don’t hold your breath about that, if the project is allowed to proceed without significant opposition from NZers.

      Best not to link to Time articles. When I was a young adult, I read it. Until I figured out its bias, and stopped. It isn’t a useful commentator on anything to do with Russia, having apparently failed to notice that it’s no longer the USSR.

    • It’s a False Flag Ukrainian Separatists have bombed their own hospital with their women and children in the hospital ?

    • Kerry: “How many nazis were killed at the maternity hospital?”

      Oh now, let me see….how many times have I heard that story, or versions of it? There’s the one about the Iraqi soldiers pulling babies out of incubators in Kuwait. Then there’s the weapons of mass destruction furphy. Then there was the one about the evil Russians (well, fancy that: Russians again!) bombing a children’s hospital in Syria. Idlib, was it? Somewhere else as well, maybe. Then there were the barrel bombs, over which sundry earnest western journos agonised. Though how they’re worse than the depleted uranium weapons favoured by the US, or than any other weapons, for that matter, it was never explained. And who can forget the false flag chemical weapons attacks! And the White Helmets! Both seem to have fallen through a hole in the world: we never hear about them now.

      Such stories as the one you adduce above are trotted out by the losing combatants – or by the US – so as to make further mischief. They are war propaganda, not the truth or anywhere near it.

  3. Israel seems to have every western country well and truly under their thumb.

    It is a dynamic that is simply not rational at all given Israel’s behaviour as a state.

    Why does the west empower and enable Israel to carry on in such a manner that they, the west, would not tolerate from any other state?

  4. Putin has pulled back on his accusations on the Denazification of the Ukraine and has stated it is merely a Special Operation.

    • I suspect that’s because he’s in the process of killing them in Mariupol and other encircled Ukrainian forces.

  5. The first casualty of any war is Truth. Now the saintly Ukrainians would never lie, exaggerate, or spread any untruths, would they? Only the foul, disgusting Putin-man would do that.
    I gather the truth has come out about those attacks on nuclear power stations has come out. The Russians were loudly blamed at the time, and obedient propaganda-believers expressed their horror..
    But no comment when the truth comes out…

    • And what is the truth that you believe? That Ukrainians bombed their power station? During wars all parts use propaganda but I would be very cautious to believe Russians who kept lying for weeks that they were not going to invade Ukraine.

  6. What this writer points out is a very uncomfortable truth about the Ukraine situation. Yet the President is Jewish, so presumably not a nazi. And yes, there is skewed media coverage that ignores the parallels with Palestine. Dark irony that the Israeli government have offered to mediate.

    • They have also offered aid and taken im scores of refugees. What have the Pals done? Nothing. And they support the invaders. Surprise surprise. Fascists of a feather.

      • Gaby my dear the Palestinians are on the bones of there arses and have just about been sent back to the Stone Age.

      • Bit hard to squeeze millions of Ukrainians into the Gaza open air prison without a bit of genocide Gaby! No doubt you would be keen to arrange it though.
        (It is noted that you still can’t spell after castigating another commenter the other day.)

      • it’s strange days indeed. the jewish state supporting ukrainian nazis some of whom would love to open babi yar again.

    • It wouldn’t be the first time that Jews have cuddled to to Nazis Steve so since Ukraine is regarded as the most corrupt European state, who knows?

      • You’re a sick little prick who can’t even differentiate between a typo and the bad English you excel at. Open air prison of Hamas’s own making. Genocide of the Jews is openly expressed in their Charter. Can you read?

        • refute the sugestion that there are anti semites amongst the ukrainian right…you sick little prick gaby.

          • “Despite accusations that the group is antisemitic, some members of the Jewish community in Ukraine support and serve in the Azov Battalion. One of its most prominent members is Nathan Khazin, leader of the “Jewish hundreds” during the 2013 Euromaidan protests in Kyiv. In an interview, Andriy Biletsky explained that he regards Israel and Japan as role models for the development of Ukraine.” Wikipedia
            Of course you cannot say that there are not anti-semites there (there are heaps of them in Russia), but they are primarily anti Russian.
            The neo-nacism is quite widespread round the world, the groups are usually in the margins of societies. (By the way, look at Mongerl Mob using swastika).

            • The Mongrel Mob comment displays an ignorance of the reason for the adoption of the symbolism. Doesn’t and never did have anything to do with the politics. Simply, the Mob originated on the back of an alienating social climate as a means of ‘protection’. What better way to fight back in the 1960’s than to flaunt symbols that riled those whose consciousness of WW2 were still pretty entrenched. Like all groups with a legacy, the symbolism persists but has no substance or meaning.

              • I used the ecxample of MM to show that not everyone using nazi symbols is an anti-semite. Nazism means extreme nationalism and as such has a lots of colours and shades and what is obvious today one of them is the Russian official policy.

            • no doubt named after ‘the black hundreds’ a jewish nazi is still a that anti-semitic ? I’m confused now.

            • so gaby you’re fine with israeli rifles being sold to the ‘not a nazi’ (even though their badge is that of the grossdeutschland SS panzer division) jew hating azov battalion…then shut up about people supplying the palestinians with arms….they’re both jew hating peas from the same anti semitic pod.

            • cut and paste with citation one anti semitic statement I’ve made just know you can’t so I darez ya, in fact I double dares ya…failure to do so makes you a barefaced liar as well as a sick little prick….

              • so gaby still no cut and pastes with citations of my non-existent anti semitic posts? ready to apologise? naw thought not.

      • Theresiensasdt was originalky a fortress that the Germens used as a Gestapo prison plus a concentration camp. There were about 88000 people who were there at least for some time, before they were sent to extermination camps, 33000 died there of malnutrition and diseases. So even as a nice face, not exactly the place anyone would choose to live in.

      • If you gave in mind the Jewish administeation in the camp, that was organised more like a ghetto, so it has nothing to do with their anti-semitism but their personal moral choice.

        • and it’s function for the nazis was a photo op on the road to auschwitz wasn’t it gaby…?
          that was my point as you well understand…so much so that the SS made a travelogue movie about the ‘jewish holiday resort’

  7. It is war that is the crime, regardless of who commits it.
    “It’s important for us to understand that almost every war kills, injures, traumatizes, and makes homeless mostly people on one side, mostly civilians, and disproportionately the poor, the elderly, and the young, just usually not in Europe.

    “It’s important for us to understand that keeping militaries around kills vastly more people than the wars do — and that this will be true until the wars become nuclear. This is because 3% of just U.S. military spending could end starvation on Earth.

    “Militaries divert resources from environmental and human needs, including disease pandemics, as well as preventing global cooperation on pressing emergencies, severely damaging the environment, eroding civil liberties, weakening the rule of law, justifying government secrecy, corroding culture, and fueling bigotry. Historically, the U.S. has seen an upsurge in racist violence following major wars. Other countries have too.”

  8. Leslie, thank you for explaining your view of another small part that makes up the historical mess in Europe. None of us have a hope of understanding ALL the multitude of allegiances, or historical events and grievances that now culminate in the current Russian act of barbarism. I know this, historically neither East nor West can claim the moral high-ground. Why, in 2022 can such an atrocity be taking place and the world, so intimadated by Putin’s evil threats, is seemingly forced to stand aside and leave children to be no more than cannon fodder for Putin’s Storm Troopers?

    • as I say to the point of boring people shitless….’your grandad fucked my grandads goat’ is something every single person in eastern europe can say to every other person in eastern europe…without exception…

      we need to look at the situation on the ground today and work off that.

    • Peter Kelly: “….Putin’s evil threats, is seemingly forced to stand aside and leave children to be no more than cannon fodder for Putin’s Storm Troopers?”

      Putin’s evil threats? What are they? Please elaborate. This sounds just like more western anti-Russia propaganda. And really, it has no substance, you know. We all know the identity of the imperial hegemon in the modern world, and it surely ain’t Russia.

      It appears that you’re unaware of what’s been happening in the Ukraine since the US-sponsored putsch there in 2013-14. There is material available – which isn’t from NATO – giving an account of it. I suggest that you do some research, before you make any further comment.

      • D’Esterre, the point I am trying to make is Putin’s reference to his nuclear arsenal; any person who even thinks use of such weaponry is acceptable has learnt nothing from history. Like I said niether E nor W can claim any moral high ground. I see Putin’s concern over Ukraine joining NATO the same as Kennedy’s stand about Russian missiles in Cuba.

        • Peter Kelly: Putin put Russian nukes on high alert in response to general western belligerence. But Zelensky’s threat to acquire nukes was definitely a factor in launching the war.

          “….any person who even thinks use of such weaponry is acceptable has learnt nothing from history.”

          You think that Russia isn’t aware of this? Remember that it was the US which walked away from limitation treaties, and it’s been Russia attempting to persuade it to return. Remember, too, Hillary Clinton’s threat to launch a nuke war against Russia, at the time of her failed presidential campaign.

          And remember – from history – it was Churchill who wanted the US to nuke the major Russian cities. It was Roosevelt (or his successor), I think, who talked him down.

          “Like I said niether E nor W can claim any moral high ground.”

          That’s definitely not what post-ww2 history shows. Most especially after 1991. You want to know the provenance of all that cold war nonsense? I urge you to read this: “The Devil’s Chessboard: Allen Dulles, the CIA, and the Rise of America’s Secret Government” written by David Talbot. It should be in your local library: I read a library copy online last year, or the year before. It’ll illustrate for you who the real bad guys have been over the years since the war.

          “I see Putin’s concern over Ukraine joining NATO the same as Kennedy’s stand about Russian missiles in Cuba.”

          And you would be wrong about that. Cuba was not threatening America in any way, it was trying to deter invasion. If you want to know what really happened in Cuba, Noam Chomsky opened my eyes to it. Back in the 90s, I think, he wrote a detailed account, using newly-declassified documents from the State Department.

          Ukraine has basically unlimited territorial claims against Russia and has been supporting terrorism against Russian civilians since 1991.

          It’s clear that, like many commenters here, you don’t know about the history of Russia (or of the USSR), and that what you do know is informed by anti-Russia propaganda, primarily from the US, of course, but also from that great Russophobe, the UK.

          Moreover, it’s very clear that you don’t know what’s been going on in the Ukraine since the US-sponsored putsch in Kiev in 2014. We have extended family connections into the Donbass and nearby areas: unfortunately, we’re all too aware of it.

          There’s no reason whatsoever to see Russia as the bad international actor: the overwhelming evidence shows that characterisation applies to the US. And to its puppet, the UK, sadly.

          Another thing to reflect upon: Russia hasn’t launched a military operation of this size since WW2. But nobody could say the same about the US, could they. And none of the US ‘s adventurism was in any way justified.

          • D’Esterre, the only bit I don’t get is your apparent acceptance that Russia’s military action is acceptable. Like US aggression (and our involvements) since WWII this military action is obscene.
            A question – If Russia is such a great place why are the Ukrainian’s fleeing to the West and not the East?
            I’m well aware of what happened in Cuba – and why (thankfully) Castro came to power and was able to reclaim Cuba for Cubans; but just as Kennedy didn’t want foreign missiles on his border (for whatever reason), Putin is as equally entitled to feel the same.

            • Peter Kelly: “….your apparent acceptance that Russia’s military action is acceptable. Like US aggression (and our involvements) since WWII this military action is obscene.”

              Again: it’s clear that you don’t know what’s been going on there since 2014. We do.

              Regrettably, there are times when the only option is to fight. Remember the beginning of WW2: no amount of diplomacy would stop Germany. As Chamberlain found out.

              Fighting can sometimes be the lesser of two evils, and the only way to stop terrible injustice. That’s the situation in the Ukraine at present.

              Diplomacy has been tried, with spectacular lack of success: there has been no willingness, from the US in particular, to engage. The Americans don’t care a damn whose children die – or how many of them – just so long as it isn’t theirs. They’re happy to pursue their idiotic foreign policy, at the expense of other people’s deaths in other countries.

              “If Russia is such a great place why are the Ukrainian’s fleeing to the West and not the East?”

              Firstly, the very fact that you’ve posited this question bespeaks propagandisation with regard to Russia. You wouldn’t, for instance, say this about any western nation.

              Secondly, thousands of Ukrainians have fled to Russia. I would expect you to know this: there’s really no excuse for ignorance on that score. They’ve been fleeing the Donbass in particular since 2014, because of what their own government has been doing to them. And I expect you to know about that as well.

              Thirdly, with regard to Ukrainians fleeing west: the Ukraine is huge. It’s the largest country in Europe. Of course those in the west – Galicia in particular – will flee further west. People do run away from fighting. And the trajectory of attack is from the east: it’s scarcely likely that they’d travel toward the conflict.

              “I’m well aware of what happened in Cuba – and why (thankfully) Castro came to power and was able to reclaim Cuba for Cubans…”

              This comment suggests that you don’t fully comprehend what happened there. I well remember it, but at that time we were comprehensively propagandised about it. It wasn’t until the 1990s that I fully understood it, and I thank Noam Chomsky for enlightening me.

              “….just as Kennedy didn’t want foreign missiles on his border (for whatever reason)…..”

              It wasn’t anything like as straightforward as that. I urge you to read Noam Chomsky on Cuba. And read that book by David Talbot, which I recommended above. You’ll be much better-informed as a result.

              “….Putin is as equally entitled to feel the same.”

              I have already pointed out that the two situations aren’t commensurate.

              In fairness all round, you really need to do a lot more reading, before you comment further on the Ukraine. As things stand, what you say here has the air of western propaganda about it. I recognise it: we were force-fed that stuff in the 1960s and 70s. It took the 1990s and the rise of the internet, bringing increased access to dissenting opinion and revisionist history (some of it previously available only in the universities) to disabuse many of my generation. The more we read, the more we realised how comprehensively we’d been lied to. It still makes me angry.

    • Try arguing the facts Leslie presents instead of making insulting comments you can’t prove. This site doesn’t need more Gabys but can be enhanced by informed opinions from rational minds.

  9. That ‘recorded proof’ 2014 reuter article is not good enough evidence.
    Got any more evidence?

    Yeah it seems there are self professed nazis in the Ukraine and Ukraine army.
    Not sure that’s good enough excuse to smash the country to pieces with deaths of children etc…

    • better or worse than the weapons of mass destruction death factory that produced milk powder..of course it propaganda.

      can we all take a break download ‘Wag the dog’ watch it and then come back…deniro and pachino, not their best work but their mediocre isn’t too shabby….so if you don’t take it on board it’s still entertaining..

  10. Leslie Bravery: “…Russia’s violation of international law is being extensively reported, as it should be….”

    That’s not correct. Russia’s operation against the Ukraine is legal under international law. This is Russia we’re talking about here: there isn’t the slightest chance that it wouldn’t have all of its legal (and military) ducks in a row before it embarked upon this invasion.

    It’s the US which has Form for blundering into conflicts without a mandate. And without an exit plan. As we’ve seen over and over in my lifetime.

    Note the latest blunder by that old cretin in the White House: he’s banned Russian oil, without having a backup plan for replacement supplies. Well, fancy that…..

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