David Seymour (bless his heart) agrees with me on one thing at least!

By
John Minto
-
60
1545

It’s a mixed blessing to see ACT leader David Seymour agreeing with me but he is right to oppose mandatory vaccination for people who are able to show they are free of covid 19.

I have blogged about this twice recently here and here.

It’s a heavy-handed overreach by the state to sack workers because they are unvaccinated when those same workers, through a simple, quick test are able to prove, as regularly as the government likes, that they are covid free.

The irony is that government policies mean vaccinated teachers and nurses, who do not need to show they are covid free, pose more danger to students at schools or to patients in hospitals than unvaccinated teachers or nurses who can prove they are covid free.

I’m pleased David Seymour can see this and astonished the government can’t or won’t.

The result of this government stance is not a safer community but rather a rapidly developing legacy of bitterness and alienation for a significant section of the population.

As I’ve said before, the government’s role is to encourage everyone to get vaccinated and provide the resources and the means for this to happen as the best way to avoid our health system from being overwhelmed.

At the same time the government should develop some respect for those who, for whatever reason, decline to be vaccinated but who can readily prove, at any time, they are covid free.

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60 COMMENTS

  1. Welcome to the ACT Party John! The party that prefers to leave citizens alone as much as possible to make their own decisions in life.

    I have yet to hear a compelling argument in favour of the vaccine mandate. If anyone here has one then please explain.

    Exactly who is the government trying to protect with this draconian ruling? Not the vaccinated for sure, unless they’re now saying the vaccine doesn’t work. It can’t be to reduce transmission because the vaccine doesn’t stop that either. Neither does the vaccine prevent a person getting infected.

    The only possible excuse is that the unvaccinated have the potential to overload the hospitals. So how about just saying the unvaccinated would get low priority in the triage when there is a surge in cases and leave them to figure it out for themselves?

    • So what about the children who are not eligible for vax and being taught by unvaccinated teachers – are you going to tell them to take their chances as well? Like all ACT party policies this latest decree is just selfish, it totally ignores the responsibilties we have as citizens.

      • Try this Oxford calculator on for size https://qcovid.org/

        Example, a 19 year old with no comorbidities. Chance of dying from Covid is one in a million. Hospital admission one in forty seven thousand. What about the children indeed.

        • What this fail to raise is the unvaccinated carry the infectious viral load a lot more than the vaccinated. Kids bring it home from school, this the family and on and on it goes.

          So it’s not about the individual, it’s about the common good!

          Something very unACT!

          • All of us here would love to see the science, the evidence for your claims. Unvaccinated are more infectious than the vaccinated according to what science? And schools, the great incubator of all manner of ills, infect how many adults exactly? In fact, when have parents ever worried about what their kids may bring home to them? When?

            Don’t let the common good cloud your judgement my friend…the only thing that matters is verifiable proof!

    • My thoughts exactly. It’s not that the vaccine is so bad or ineffective – it’s just in the circumstances of an extreme measure, with vaccinations rate already high, and evidence showing it has limited effect on transmission and protection wanes in months (hence booster), and the heinous morality of a two-class society, I’ve yet to see anything approaching a decent justification for mandates and passports. Nor explanation why unvaccinated are so morally and operationally responsible for our hospital capacity and demand, above say smokers, the obese, the Government, etc.

      All I’ve seen is a whole bunch of self-righteousness and fear. Teachers? Kids are more in danger from car accidents! Literally. And natural immunity is showing strong evidence as as largely more effective and longer term.

      We’ve only had one case from a Left leaning Judge who is the son of a former Labour Prime Minister. It’s an open secret Matthew Palmer got the HC judgeship as sop for being refused his real desire – Solicitor-General in charge of Crown Law.

      • James, on what statistic do you base “Kids are more in danger from car accidents!” – have you got some projection as to how many children will suffer from Covid once it becomes endemic in NZ? To use current numbers is a completely fallacious comparison

        • By providing the verifiable proof to your claim, nukefacts, then not only does your belief that someone here is lying hold true, but you well and truly put an end to this lie, once and for all.

      • I totally agree with you Mike the Lefty.
        If everyone obeyed the Road Rules kids wouldn’t be in so much danger from car accidents – just like the Covid Rules, they are there for the protection of everyone.

    • Problem is medical staff who aren’t vaccinated. More likely to get covid and pass it on, making patients who are vulnerable and other staff sick

  2. “The result of this government stance is not a safer community but rather a rapidly developing legacy of bitterness and alienation for a significant section of the population.”
    Currently 90% of NZ is 1st dose and rising. Some parts of NZ are over 95% quite remarkable.
    This is currently unsignificant and shrinking by the day.

  3. You can’t prove you are COVID free with a test result, all you can prove is that at the time of the test, you didn’t have COVID.

    It’s like drug testing, you can pass a test & then celebrate getting your new job with a nice big joint. Your piece of paper doesn’t mean you are safe to work, only that you were drug free at the time of the test. So when they test you again on your first day at work as well, you’ll just be heading home again, probably without a job.

    Vaccination mandates are there to protect the unvaccinated, so smile and enjoy the fact that society respects your right to choose.

    • And at the time you can still not prove you do not have the virus and we still have many coming through our borders with it, not at the time but they still have it, its busy incubating. Look conscription was used to force our men to go to war as are vaccine mandates to fight the virus war.

      • Is this the war where 99.9+% survive – and even more if you choose to get vaccinated yourself?

        Compared to say, 20% of Poland’a pre-World War 2 population dying, or a literal genocide of one ethnicity?

        And what about the other ‘defences’ we have, such as treatments, natural immunity, and proper ventilation and outdoor living. I suppose that’s irrelevant to the analysis.

        CRass and mass exaggeration feeds the emotional thinking, but it’s completely loony way to justify a mass breach of human rights.

        Don’t worry – I’ve got a comeback for you. You could call me an Act supporter, grandmother killer, or self-entitled bastard? Of course it has nothing to do with my argument, but it feels good eh!

        And if you feel self-righteousness and morally superior, you must be correct and justified, right? Same thinking as the Woke. Exactly. The. Same.

        • Yes those defences you quote are ludicrous. Natural immunity if it even exists for Covid, is so much lower than the vaccine. Next you’ll be saying we need natural immunity against measles, instead of vaccines. Oh wait, that was tried by lots of anti-max nutters in the uS and shit loads of kids died.

          Grow up – you are being played by ‘freedom’ scum aka american billionaires and their paid for professional liars.

  4. I must disagree with the basis of your argument John. All tests give historical results so no one can say they are still Covid free because of a recent test. Also all tests have a failure rate, the rapid test being less reliable. The reality even at 100% accuracy a weekly test gives you a week to spread the virus. We must all assume we have the virus and that those we interact with may have it. The vaccination reduces severity and transmission, so in vulnerable settings remains the most effective weapon, hence thd mandate.

  5. Your position is ridiculous as it doesn’t reflect science. I don’t think you understand just how infectious delta is.

    Let’s compare teachers: one is vaccinated, the other not. The vaccinated teacher is much much less likely to catch covid, and if they do, they will be much less infectious. The unvaccinated teacher will almost certainly catch covid, and be very infectious. Yes they may detect it if they take a daily saliva test but it returns a false negative (i.e. they are actually infected but the test says they are not) and they spread it into a classroom of unvaccinated under 12’s.

    If you look at those two risk profiles, the unvaccinated teacher is by far the higher risk. The only way to further lower the risk would be to have the vaccinated teacher take daily saliva tests too.

    When the travel bubble was announced, it was inevitable that it would allow delta in to NZ. You are effectively advocating exactly the same sort of high risk approach – assume tests are 100% perfect, and that people will always do the right thing, and we will all be safe.

    Sorry, it just doesn’t work like that. This is why we need to mandate compulsory vaccination in important sectors.

  6. “It’s a mixed blessing to see ACT leader David Seymour agreeing with me but he is right to oppose mandatory vaccination for people who are able to show they are free of covid 19.”

    This is a wedge argument. Does anyone expect those who aren’t vaccinated to continually go and get tested to prove they are Covid-free? They will do it once or twice and then employers will likely turn a blind eye or just trust that they are getting the tests done.

    “The irony is that government policies mean vaccinated teachers and nurses, who do not need to show they are covid free, pose more danger to students at schools or to patients in hospitals than unvaccinated teachers or nurses who can prove they are covid free.” – This misses the point that those who are vaccinated are less likely to pass on Covid in the first place, and they are less likely to be incubators of Covid.

    As someone who has to work with people who are not vaccinated, I don’t see why the loss of my rights as a worker who should expect to have a high level of protection from covid in my work place, should be an acceptable price to pay for others who don’t want to get vaccinated. If they don’t want to get vaccinated, then the onus is on them to pay the price for their freedom to practice their beliefs instead of transferring the price on to me and my co-workers.

    • Yes, that is the point.
      Testing is unreliable and used by the state to infringe our rights – cannabis use for one.
      Vaxxing is designed to stop the progress of the pandemic (world wide) so it is a social act.
      It gives protection (if not lasting immunity) and protects the non-vaxxed by passing on a less virile dose less frequently.
      More than that vaxxs are socially produced. They are a contradictory instance of how socialism emerges from the bowels of capitalism.
      Public health was never the invention of the bosses. Workers actions to safeguard their health and safety pushed the ruling class to invest in public health.
      While they needed health workers bosses complied.
      Over the last century more and more worker have been pushed into the research army of labour. Those who stayed in jobs saw their health and safety come under attack.
      Only by turning your back on this history of class struggle, John, do you end up in the camp of the capitalist right win individualists show mantra is the neoliberal ‘freedom of choice’.
      So the antivax argument is nothing but that of the right wing libertarian claiming that the future rests on the bourgeois right of the individual to buy and sell anything, including his or her own body, and that of their children.
      Barbaric.
      This is what Rosa Luxemburg meant by humanity having to chose between ‘socialism or barbarism’.

      • Wow, I haven’ t read such a piece of communist propaganda (with Rosa Luxemburg) for ages. Good on you if you believe it. It is your free choice and this wicked capitalist barbaric state you are living in allows you to choose your opinion and to proclaim it publicly.

  7. Usually agree with JM but can’t on this issue. the idea of vaccinations is to build immunity for the community and having unvaccinated in the work place WILL spread the disease and unfortunately those on the bottom rung will end up suffering the most. Concern over “bitterness or alienation” is misguided given that it already exsists through being promoted by fuck wits like your new best friend David Seymour. JM give yourself an upper cut and get back to doing what you do best.

  8. David Seymour has…..a……a……….a heart??
    That “privatise everything – sell NZ to the highest bidder – bleed the citizens dry” nightmarish badly written peice of holographic coding has a warm, beating heart?
    Yeah nah.

  9. The point is that employers have a countervailing right to refuse employment to the unvaccinated, and workers a similar right to refuse to work alongside an unvaccinated person, on grounds of health ans safety. There is also the possibility of customer boycotts to be taken into account. Making the vaccine mandatory will probably avoid a lot of litigation.

  11. I understand what you mean John and where you’re coming from. But, where does that leave the Judiciary and Palmer J High Court decision, that the ‘mandates’ are legal and within the NZ BoR’s?

    What then for all these ex-employees. Even their unions have abandoned them on this issue so union membership is going to take a hammering too.

  12. John, if unvaccinated teachers/medical staff were allowed to practise would you agree to their unvaccinated status having to be declared to parents/patients – or would you see that as an infringement on their privacy? Would parents/patients have the right to refuse their services?

    • Isn’t that like what the Director of Health, Bloomfield did recently?

      He decided to ignore a High Court ruling when the Court ruled that the MoH release the data that was requested by Waipereria Trusts CEO JT?

      I can see Appeal after Appeal after Appeal coming contesting mandates and rulings of contempt of court that has been made a laughing stock by the heads of ministries.
      MSD have a track record of doing the very same thing too.

      Your premise Peter I feel is in principle, is the same?

      • Denny, I think you will find that the DGoH is caught between an inter Iwi debate. The High Court didn’t tell the MoH to release the data but to review the decision, which they have done and come to the same conclusion. My understanding is that Ngai Tahu is arguing against the release of the data. Is this correct?
        I do wonder why the MoH isn’t able to segregate their data into Iwis and then release it as requested by each Iwi; would seem to me to be a logical way forward. It would be interesting to hear why Ngai Tahu is against the release.

        • No, it isn’t a stoush between iwi.
          It’s a private company who the MoH have a contract with, namely ‘Healthline’ who the MoH has released the very same data that JT requested.
          And the Court did order the MoH Director general Bloomfield to provide this data to the Trust within 72 hours which Bloomfield chose not to.

          By the way, ‘Healthline’ in 2010 was paid $35 per call! So I guess they’re making a killing in today’s money!?

          • Thanks Denny. Yes, many companies making a killing at tax payer’s expense; this is the real cost of privatisation of public service functions becoming apparent.

  13. The unvaxed deserve no respect. If they can be persuaded by right-wing USA social media to not get vaxed I do not want them teaching my grandchildren. For years the standard of teaching in NZ has declined and perhaps his is the chance to weed out the dead wood as I suspect they could be from the same group.

    • hear hear trev…

      if you are lovely and kind like jacinda to nutters, they don’t back off, they bite your bum…as the LINO is now finding out.

      the vapid desire to be liked by everyone results in everyone despising her…..

    • I know many extreme lefties who are unvaxxed. Are they allowed to teach your grandchildren? And what if your grandchildren give COVID to a teacher. What then?

      • By law Noone can teach my who are not vaccinated whatever their politics . In all probability teachers will get covid from children. My grandson in Melbourne has just finished isolation and he is 9 .It was not a good time

  14. I’ve never given a crap about covid since my 4 mental siblings failed to kill my 90-year-old mother by refusing her the vax — she died naturally.

    I ‘dinna kin’ the science, but zertainly there’s no point in making yourself a target unnecessarily. I know the antis well, unfortunately.

    But you also rightly raise the point of capitalism pushing us over the cliff while making socialism an unnecessary target when ‘war gummint’ can do it all.

    I think actually if it was possible a genuine acceptance of socialism, as per Sanders’s way is the best/only way. Our only hope.

    So we are talking about an egomaniac (not Sanders — the exception in that regard) with a strong belief in our values — all the first Labour Govt politicians.

    There are so few willing to stand up for that.

    It’s just a throw of the dice like Denis Welch in the 90s. Why not all of us spouting like whales. Or we could just see the growth of the Fascist supporters as audience like the neoliberal upper 10.

  15. If a right leaning government in NZ was advocating mandates the majority of commenters on this blog would be screaming fascists.

    • nope fraid not it’s not about politics it’s about death
      …the monobrows of the right have made it ‘a political football’
      ….and frankly if they want to be in the Zombie JFK suicide cult
      …..it’s their lives..literally but they’ll take the innocent with to the morgue

        • What does ‘screaming fascists’ mean, John?
          Fascists who scream a lot?
          Or people who are screaming, “Fascists!”
          You yourself are not so clear..

          • If you understand the expression fascist then you know what I mean.
            Personally it is a favourite of the left as a word which the majority have no understanding of but it sounds good,
            Like the University canteen using words like fascist made you sound intelligent even though most of those people are now firmly part of the establishment.
            To me it’s amusing predictable and sad.
            F

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