This is wrong

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Myself and my partner discussed vaccination for Covid and we decided we would get vaccinated – not for ourselves but for the “common good”. Vaccination doesn’t stop a person getting covid and neither does it stop a person spreading covid but it does relieve the symptoms of covid. This means it will reduce pressure on the health system for those that need it – those for whom covid has more serious effects.

For example had most people been vaccinated in the UK, the US and northern Italy their hospitals would not have been overwhelmed. Far fewer people would have needed hospital care and far fewer people would have died. The same applies in Aotearoa New Zealand or anywhere else.

However, I am strongly opposed to the government making vaccination mandatory for workers in any setting. This is wrong headed and frankly stupid. The assumption that those who are vaccinated are somehow “safe” while those unvaccinated are somehow “unsafe” is unhelpful, unscientific and is being quite calculatedly being enforced by social bullying.

In teaching for example, a fully vaccinated teacher who may have and spread covid infection to others will be welcomed in classrooms BUT an unvaccinated teacher who can show through a rapid antigen test that they don’t have covid will be banned from teaching. This is brainless. It does not make sense at any level.

The same applies to hairdressers, cafes and gyms or our airports and ports for that matter.

The government has a responsibility to promote vaccination as the best way at present to protect our health system from overload and therefore save lives but it has no justification to demand anyone be sacked for refusing to be vaccinated. That’s not choice – it’s frenzied harassment by the state.

The government should step back from its draconian regime for mandatory vaccinations and show some basic respect for individuals who make personal decisions not to be vaccinated and who can show their non-covid status at any time.

 

TDB Recommends NewzEngine.com

147 COMMENTS

  1. ‘This is brainless.’ Is it, though? Establishing what level of sickness, disablement and death is tolerable … isn’t a covid19 – free walk in the park.

  2. Pushing shit uphill on this one, John. I also vaccinated for similar reasons.

    But much like a total ban on citizens entering NZ last year would’ve been welcomed, we have a new target – the unvaccinated – and any measure proclaimed for the “public good” will be welcome by most in a country whose mainstream media would not even allow one article or opinion arguing against vaccine passports.

    But I still don’t quite get how a vaccine whose effect attenuates fairly rapidly and overseas examples shows limited impact on transmission – and the need for booster – is so wonderful that it justifies compulsory mass vaccination, loss of livelihood, and a two class citizenship. I guess after all, hospital capacity concerns are completely new and solely due to Covid-19 and we’re incapable of prioritising or facing a 3 month patch of difficulty to get over a peak of cases, at most.

    But hey, I’m just a raving self selfish guy who doesnt understand for the “public good” is never wrong, misconceptualised, inflated, slanted, politicised, or dangerous – particularly by this transparent and trusting Governement with a nice slush fund for media to counter “misinformation” and get new employees.

    In fact I’m almost in awe of the Govt’s ability to deflect accountability for failures and its divide and conquer techniques. It’s very smart – even if completely amoral. I might have to use it next time the wife blames me for something.

  3. I thought this day would never come – the day I agreed with John bloody Minto on ANY subject, but that day has come. Good on you for voicing an unpopular opinion in these days of mass hysteria.

    I am vaccinated as is my wife but we respect the rights of those who wish to remain unvaccinated for whatever reason.

  4. Next wave of Delta is coming, and countries with high vaccination rates are now having a secondary outbreak and deaths from the new strain.

    It was predicted years ago by scientists, that life as the planet knows it, can’t continue with the high, consumer and emissions lifestyle.

    Maybe Covid made it clearer.

    Best thing to protect people is to adapt, use zoom, technology and so forth.

    The neoliberal era of gross consumption and decadence is hopefully over and hopefully change and co-operation, less individualism and more care for the environment and others is coming.

    • “The neoliberal era of gross consumption and decadence is hopefully over and hopefully change and co-operation, less individualism and more care for the environment and others is coming.”

      The change to Level 3 in Auckland 12/10 was for me the Govt returning to consumption and decadence settings. The Neo Liberal capitalists have incessantly pressured JA to open up for business, and that’s about to happen at the expense of health and safety, again.

    • How long does one or a few have to circle the Earth before coming down after most people have died and the bodies shoveled under? A Schrodingers cat sort of conundrum. And then the robots will go on strike – overworked.

  5. John get some facts please or you risk arming the nut job anti vaxers.

    Being vaccinated DOES reduce the spread of covid, and reduces shedding of virus even in infected individuals:

    “British scientists at the University of Oxford examined national records of nearly 150,000 contacts that were traced from roughly 100,000 initial cases. The samples included people who were fully or partially vaccinated with either the Pfizer-BioNTech or the AstraZeneca vaccines, as well as people who were unvaccinated. The researchers then looked at how the vaccines affected the spread of the virus if a person had a breakthrough infection with either the alpha variant or the highly contagious delta variant.

    Both vaccines reduced transmission, although they were more effective against the alpha variant compared to the delta variant. When infected with the delta variant, a given contact was 65 percent less likely to test positive if the person from whom the exposure occurred was fully vaccinated with two doses of the Pfizer vaccine. With AstraZeneca, a given contact was 36 percent less likely to test positive if the person from whom the exposure occurred was fully vaccinated.”

    Yes this is a tiny reduction in freedoms, but its comparable to obeying speed limits – a trivial reduction that is effectively consequence free for the individual but massively benefits society by preventing the destruction of our health system, improving our collective population health (e.g. reducing long covid), and allowing society to function closer to normal (e.g. work and socialisation).

  6. Most of these new rules are to protect the unvaccinated. When the traffic light system comes into effect, the protective controls of closed businesses & schools, limited numbers, social distancing, seated patrons etc, will no longer be used by businesses using vaccine passports. This means the risks for unvaccinated people increases greatly.

    Businesses & schools have a duty of care to their staff & patrons, they can not knowingly allow people to enter an area that is unsafe for them. Hence unvaccinated people are not allowed to enter businesses where the previous infection controls are no longer in place. Likewise if your job would require you to be in an unsafe environment and you are unwilling to take the protective vaccine, your employer can not endanger you by making you work in that environment, so if no alternative is available, you will not be able to carry on working there. The mandates & law changes just make this situation simpler for employers.

    Teachers & front facing staff will be facing significant risks if not vaccinated and even if they are happy to face that risk, no caring (or one that doesn’t want to face legal repercussions) employer can allow it.

    If you are unvaccinated, this is being done for your protection, now smile & be grateful or get vaccinated now. The gates are going to open soon, whether you like it or not. It’s going to be a very COVID Christmas.

    • Great comment. This “I’ve been vaccinated but everyone should have the right to work is a crock. Those unvaccinated are a danger to themselves their families and relatives, and their work mates, who to a lesser degree can be reinfected which in some cases still could make them quite sick. The herd immunity won’t work here and the virus will find the unvaccinated as is shown overseas. Get jabbed.

    • Even I can understand that Richard well done indeed you have the gift of simple explanations. I will copy that and show my whanau who are holding out. I can never explain it well enough. Jacinda could do worse than put you on the job, I’m sure it would help. Cheers.

    • This has always been at the heart of the issue – the contradictions between workers’ rights and employers’ obligations – both dear to the heart of the left. A Gordian knot of contradictory legislation and muddling ideology trying to toe a line that couldn’t be toed without tripping and falling on its face.

    • there are three things government is trying to protect,
      a. our underfunded, under resourced and understaffed health / hospital system,
      b. the reputation of our politicians who for the last several decades (all of them L, G, N, A, M, NZF, etc) have underfunded, under resourced and understaffed our health and hopsital system.
      c. the policians and their water carriers as they know that if the hospitals are not coping then they too risk death should they get covid.

      • Exactly.
        Most of you commenters against the government’s actions have not got it through your heads apart from the overworked first world trained staff our hospitals are at almost third world levels having to work to first world expectations.
        Along with the blatantly underfunded hospital infrastructure, not being able to cope with our increasing populations health needs. These anti vaxers who have no valid reason other than being anti authority or just blatantly any vaccine no matter what. They think they have the absolute right to ignore the communities greater good and their individual rights overrule everything else no matter what. Well they are now between a rock and a hard place because employers are at risk under H+S laws plus there is the intentional infection law still in place from the aids / hiv era .

    • Rules to protect the unvaccinated????
      You mean that they can not decide the level of risk for themselves?
      Ie the state knows best.
      I have vaxed, not to protect anyone, but to get the documentation to allow me to travel.

      I have no problem being in company with the unvaxed. They make their decisions and take the consequences.

      We dont force people to diet to protect them against obesity
      We dont force people to stay away from climbing mountains, horse riding or surfing to protect them from injury they may cause to themselves or others.

      For the first time in my life. I actually agree with John Minto.

      • No one is forced to vaccinate, however not doing so has consequences. Employers have a duty of care and no one has the right to force their “risk tolerance” on others.

        You can go mountaineering or run grade 5 rapids, but you can’t drag a school group or your work colleagues along on your adventure without their consent, and even with consent, if you are in a leadership role, you have a duty of care not to endanger those you in your charge.

  7. I don’t believe this is either a vast world elite conspiracy or a move towards totalitarianism more so unfortunately many in society have created a narcissist as a leader who cannot stand it if she isn’t number one in the world at covid. Ardern’s modern day Moby Dick quest. HOWEVER:

    I join you as a vaccinated citizen deeply concerned where we are tracking here in making 2 classes of citizen. I like you, despite our ideological differences don’t believe much good will come from this.

    • Frank the Empty Tank: You are so keen to come across as a hardened, experienced man of the ‘real world’ that I find you unrealistic. Casting our PM as an over-ambitious megalomaniac is futile – few will be convinced.

      • Yawn. It’s amusing when people frame personal attacks in the absence of a sensible counter argument. As for your last sentence. Time will tell – opinions are like assholes – everyone has them. No one has a mortgage on the truth.

  8. This to me this is a bit like the MOH mandating fluoride in our water, despite serious proper new research done in two countries that shows fluoride is dangerous. Makes one wonder whether in fact the Ministry is even aware of these two studies. I think the Ministry is pretty lazy around all these things.

    I am absolutely for people to be able to make their own decision without punitive measures, no one has lived with this vaccination for 5 years let alone the rest of their life.

    • “despite serious proper new research done in two countries that shows fluoride is dangerous.”

      This is untrue.
      The science does not support that claim, that’s why not a single public health or scientific organisation in the world draws that conclusion in respect to community water fluoridation at recommended levels for dental health.
      If you are interested in the reasons why, and the errors that lead people like Michal to make the sort of misleading claims you can read the series of excellent articles by NZ scientist Ken Perrott, where he surveys these and other studies and discusses how the anti fluoridation movement misrepresents or misinterprets them.
      https://openparachute.wordpress.com/fluoridation/

    • Michal, there is always a study people can find to prove what they want to believe. People way brighter than you or me have worked out we don’t have the luxury of five years to see if there are bad long term affects from the vaccine, but they’ll be pretty sure there won’t be. Some times you have to think outside your own square.

        • Some effects of Iodine deficiency:
          People may experience
          Neck: lump or swelling
          Also common: goiter, cognitive deficit, cold sensitivity, constipation, fatigue, or stunted growth.

          Recognise any of these?

            • Because of supplementation. People of my grandparents generation succumbed to goitre etc. Our salt was first iodised in 1924. It’s easy for subsequent generations to take this one simple example for granted. There are many others.

  9. BTW, your teacher example is false logic.

    Let’s compare a vaccinated and unvaccinated teacher, who are exposed to Covid 19 on day 1. The vaccinated teacher may not even catch it as the vaccine confers considerable immunity. The unvaccinated is highly likely to get the virus. If both teachers catch it, the vaccinated teacher will shed much less virus than the unvaccinated, thus considerably reducing transmission to others.

    All up, having vaccinated teachers will be a huge net positive.

    I also think you focus too much on ‘personal freedom’ like the neoliberals. There is no absolute freedom in any society – we are all responsible in various ways for each other and have to sacrifice some personal freedoms to co-exist because it provides net-net benefit to each party on either side of the reduction in freedom.

    For Covid 19, there’s also the hidden tradeoff of a tiny reduction in freedom to prevent long Covid in ourselves and others. If we allowed total freedom to choose on vaccination, then a very large percentage of the population will get symptoms of long Covid. This is pretty much like living with multiple sclerosis, which is a shit of a disease, destroys quality of life, and ruins work productivity. All up, allowing the rampant spread of Covid would effectively cripple a large percentage of our population, just so some selfish wankers can have total freedom.

    • Amen. I’ve noticed that a lot of people who bang on about freedom are saying that their freedoms are so important that it’s ok if holding on to them results in loss of freedom for others. In this case, becoming ill and all the loss of freedom that it would entail.

    • But they still have to drive with seatbelts! Freedom is anarchy, and the tie dye brigade would soon be bottom of the pile. Thank eff for rules.

      • Hardly comparable with having to wear a seatbelt or wear a helmut. This is about putting something into your body, totally different.

        • Michal. Don’t know whether you’ve noticed but there are several billions of souls that have accepted the vaccine around the world and virtually all have lived through the experience. Those people understand we haven’t got five years to make absolutely sure the vaccine is completely safe. If they’re all really sick in five years you’ll be pretty lonely. If you don’t get vaccinated you might be lonely anyway. And sick. Or dead.

  10. 1. It must breach section 11 of the Bill of Rights Act 1990, which is the right to refuse to undergo medical treatment.
    2. The person on the Clapham omnibus (your average person) would consider a vaccination a medical treatment.
    3. If your right has such a dire consequence (losing your job), our worker on the omnibus would consider this undue coercion.
    4. But of course Mr and Mrs Clapham cannot afford to take a case to court to defend their rights. Is this a breach of their rights?
    5. I would prefer to see a vigorous risk management approach, which may include, but not be limited to, restricted work areas or restricted work activities.

  11. John, I disagree. This is a team effort. I have given notice to my flatmates to move out. Both are vaccinated, however both are not safe for me to have around as we go into covid, because they don’t care. I will only have good people around me as we go to war on covid. Those who don’t get it can fuck right off, imho

  12. So, they’re vaccinated but still not sufficiently “good”? Didn’t pass your ideological purity test on Covid? Time to eject onto the street.

    Here comes NZ’s Great Purge from the righteous Stalins. A nice foretaste of the kindness and two-class mob mania to come.

    Enjoy it all friends – this is your fruit to savour. This is what you wanted.

    (And BTW saying something “is a team effort” doesn’t automatically make it justified, correct, or sensible. Ethnic cleansing requires a “team effort” but I’m not sure I’d be celebrating it as a great example of teamwork on my CV.)

    • “this is what you wanted”. Good god Gordon. “New Zealand the way you want it”. Now doesn’t that ring a sour note?
      No-one wanted/wants covid but it is definitely coming to the whole Country. Howabout we refuse access to free Public Health for the unvaccinated, seeing the antivaccers are happy to allow our services to collapse?

      • A sensible sentiment and I genuinely support you. I of course also 100% agree with your unwritten but clearly implied suggestion that after blocking the unvaccinated from using the public health system, we will provide them with a proportionate tax rebate according to the lose of amenity through their exclusion from a tax funded social service, relative to their financial contribution. A balanced and fair approach that would protect the public health system, and operate much like vaccine certificates at private sector businesses, where the unvaccinated are excluded, but in so being excluded do not have to contribute financially to those businesses.
        This concept could be hugely beneficial to society if we applied it across the board to any vice or pastime known to cause disproportionate hospitalisation or traumatic harm and thus load on the health system, including but not limited to smokers, sun bed users, type 2 diabetics, drug users – especially in cases of self inflicted overdose, those who practice un-safe sex and spread various sometimes deadly viruses to their unwitting partners, mountain bikers etc. Indeed we could extend it to those who simply make poor decisions generally that result in harm to themselves and others such as motorists deemed at fault in vehicle accidents (a close analogue of the unvaccinated member of the community, and the rapacious sodomite who refuses prophylaxis). In fact one can easily see that if we refuse access to enough members of society whose life choices or dispositions we disagree with we could all but do away with a public health system entirely, and in turn provide considerable relief for those paying net tax.
        If Aotearoa is to win the great race to the bottom of the pile, all 5 million of us must team together and turn away from tolerance, balanced realism and other similarly frivolous evils of the enlightenment, and embrace ideological intersectionalism and neo-Puritanism with all the pseudo-moralistic bluster we can.
        I do have to say on a closing note though, that it may be too great an assumption to assume that “No-one wanted/wants covid”. I suspect there may be a small number of individuals who lack the courage to actively end their banal existence amongst the proselytizing common masses by their own hand, and might welcome the sweet sweet relief of a natural death. That said I am confident their attempts at escape can to some extent be headed off by a high level of vaccine coverage in the community.

    • It is very difficult to hold an effective health and safety flatmate meeting when 2/3 flatmates couldn’t care less about spreading, never follow the news, fake scan tracing app, know next to nothing about covid or the vaccine (and don’t want to know) and don’t even have the courtesy to attend such meeting, the list goes on. Other non-covid serious issues with both of them. How much disregard, disrespect, verbal abuse must one suck up and suffer from two morons, vaxxed or unvaxxed, as we head to war on covid must one be expected to tolerate? 100% they can fuck right off

      • I think you made the only sensible decision. I feel privileged to be living alone so I don’t have to make tough decisions like that.

  13. Your security is only as good as it’s weakest link. What Mr Minto is advocating amounts to locking your doors during a house burglary epidemic but leaving all your windows open. If you want to do that at your house then fair enough, but don’t advocate others do it. I’m a believer in democracy. We collectively elect a Government giving them a mandate and a responsibility to do the right thing by the population. If we dislike the direction they take us we can send them packing at the next election. It is rapidly arriving at the point where Covid-19 is no longer the biggest and most dangerous threat to our health, it’s the epidemic of Expert-Novices undermining our defence vis misinformation.

    • Accusations of “Misinformation” and blind flealty to a narrow class of “experts” is rapidly becoming the technique-de-joeur of the Covid-class, having taken their lesson from the Woke use of “racist”, “transphobe!” and “Critical Studies” Theories academic verbiage to delegitimise any critique.

      What the Unthinking Man is saying is that we must lock our house and exclude anyone who doesn’t lock their own door… to protect from a burglar (Delta) who has only stolen (killed) from 1 in every 1300 houses he has canvassed (cases). It’s an epidemic of disproportionately and tunnel vision.

      • It’s worse than that. If you refuse the vax when you have no valid health reason to do so, you are aiding and abetting the “burglar”. It’s a pity there’s no inoculation for stupidity.

      • Happy for you to describe me however you see fit even if the manner of your description amounts to cowardly online abuse. Fact remains that regardless of you viewing me as blue whale or a 1968 ten shilling note, it doesn’t make it so. If I rebut any of your accusations I will need to rebut them all or I’ll gift you tacit approval for those I failed to address.

        That aside, we are in the midst of a deadly pandemic. I’m confident that even faux intellectuals will concede that fact. If we blissfully continue normal life with ineffective protection against the highly contagious Delta variant of the severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) and we contract the disease, it can overwhelm our near defenceless bodies. Are you agreed upon this fact? If we get a milder version of the disease we may be fortunate enough to continue on with life once we’ve recovered. If we are less fortunate our bodies will almost certainly suffer irreparable damage. Many will be an even less fortunate and succumb to the disease and suffer a “bad death”. Yes, we all will die at some point but if you consider the glaring difference between a good peaceful death surrounded by family and a distressing bad death watched over only by helpless strangers in a I.C.U wearing full PPE gear, what choice would you want for yourself and your loved ones?

        Life is not without risk but if you are gifted the opportunity to mitigate a recently arrived significant risk for you and your family then you will likely have made a significant error of judgment. Yes, it is your life and potentially your significant error but the high likelihood is you will pass on that significant error of judgment to others that didn’t choose it. The definition of such action is best described as diabolical selfishness. If that error of judgment and the logic involved is passed on to others, it can easily become dangerous and potentially life threatening misinformation.

        The experts around the globe agree that at some point we will all contract SARS-CoV-2. Most also agree that a vaccinated person against the disease can still contract it but is less likely to suffer the worst version of Covid and succumb from it. Based on all the statistics I’ve seen and read, only an ignorant fool would disagree.

        I sincerely believe that the NZ Director General of Health has made a catalog of serious blunders during this pandemic. The first being his stance via the WHO that only symptomatic carriers of SARS-CoV-2 can transmit it to others. He “educated” NZ including our vulnerable health system to this alleged fact and stipulated only symptomatic carriers of the disease were to be tested. He also advised testing labs to only test the samples of symptomatic people. That was despite as early as February 2020 there being thousands of reported cases of pre-symptomatic / asymptomatic carriers of Covid arriving in the UK and blissfully spreading the disease to others. Even our own high profile clusters in NZ were invariably started via an asymptomatic or pre-symptomatic carriers. It’s now accepted by most experts that these carriers of Covid 19 are very obviously shedding and spreading the disease. Dr Bloomfield also via WHO advice repeatedly informed people tuning in to the 1pm Covid Press-Conference that there was very little evidence to suggest face coverings were an effective tool in reducing the spread of Covid and refused to mandate the wearing of them. Nek minute.

        Dr Bloomfield seems a lovely man but I refuse to accept any advice from him as being beyond reproach.

        I also have questions over the vaccine efficacy that I consider valid. In 2020 we were told a single dose vaccinated person would “likely” receive approximately 80% protection and that jumps to 95% for a double vaccinated person. These numbers were put out when variants other than Delta were raging. We know the Delta variant is far more transmissible yet the quoted efficacy if the vaccine remains somewhat surprisingly, unchanged.

        We are told different timeframes for how long the vaccine protects us and now a third dose is being spoken of. If we fast forward 12 months are we routinely going to hear about the need for a fourth dose? I also question just how “mild” the mild version of Covid is on the double vaccinated person. I know several people in the UK who are double vaccinated but were bowled over when they contracted Covid several months later.

        The questions I have are relevant but pale into insignificance alongside one universal truth. At this time, the vaccine is our best weapon in the fight against SARS-CoV-2.

        As a result, the vaccine becomes a risk v reward equation. What risk do you pose to yourself, your family and to others if you’re unvaccinated? What risk are you to yourself, your family and to others if you are vaccinated? What risk is there taking the vaccine to me and to my family?

        I’m not saying the vaccine is risk free but when the numbers are crunched I’m adamant taking the vaccine is the correct and sensible / prudent option.

        What are you going to use to protect yourself and your family from SARS-CoV-2 if you choose not to be vaccinated? What is the efficacy of any alternative protection plan you have?

        Freedom of choice is hugely important but there are times were your freedom of choice can badly hurt and even kill others. The Covid pandemic is one of those times. How utterly irresponsible is it for any Government to allow citizens to waltz around spreading a deadly disease to others during a pandemic due to their “freedom of choice?”

        We are a long time dead.

  14. Great post and I agree totally

    I’m looking at losing my job because I am not vaccinated with the argument being I may put people at risk of getting the virus, yet vaccinated people can also spread the virus and they keep their job no probs.

    Why can’t I just get regular tests to ensure I don’t have the virus? That’s more logical in my book and I keep my job while people can be sure I am virus free

    PS: I have never had any vaccines my entire adult life due to my personal beliefs and this stance has nothing to do with C19

  15. The problem is that it may be 2 days before symptoms appear. The PCR test is more sensitive than rapid antigen test. The former takes 2 to 5 days for results. So even if people were tested every day they may have undetected delta and could pass it on to others.

  16. Thank you John. My stance too. I believe where persuasion fails show more evidence.

    Our government seem to think that heavy handed coercion aka compulsion is OK. I am reminded of the Soviet, its a short jump. Then Covid passports…. as we remember there were passes in South Africa.

    Democracy is frail, freedom weaker. They are maintained by ethical behaviour. And courage, not fear.

    I used to blog at Bowalley, its gone frighteningly coercive. I have voted to leave.

    Keep up the promotion of principles and ethic John, good fortune.

  17. I assume that you know full well that your claims that vaccinated people can get Covid and spread Covid are the best kind of “technically true” statement. But the way you use those claims here amounts to disinformation.

    People who have been vaccinated are less likely to get Covid, a LOT less likely to get it.

    People who have been vaccinated are less likely to spread Covid if they do get it, a LOT less likely.

    Those two facts underpin the importance of vaccine mandates. Deliberately ignoring them (as it is clear you are through the careful working of your piece) is dangerous.

    • People who have had covid are also less likely to get covid. Its called Natural Immunity, there are even medical documents to support this.

  18. In exceptional circumstances and times like these, ‘risk’, the pro’s v con’s need to be weighed up.

    For once, I’m with the sheep on this one. Whether it will end in slaughter ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

  19. Now government and ‘business’ are about to bring the next Delta strain into NZ, by opening the border more, and allowing zero MIQ to ‘trusted’ ‘business people’ who apparently can all be trusted to self isolate so they can venture back and forth around Xmas.

    Thanks fuckers, for putting everyones life at risk (as well as the economy) for someone who can’t use zoom!

    The polls speak for themselves, and voters want Labour to keep high security, NOT open it up to selected business people, celebrities, gangs and NZ whiners who left the country, don’t work and live here and then whining they can’t come back for Xmas!

    We also know from past experience, how plane loads of apparently Covid free nationals ‘somehow’ got Covid in transit to NZ. Some countries seem to have more failure in tests and somehow ‘pick up’ Covid more easily than any other national in transit. Yeah, right.

    Avoiding hurting someones feelings is part of the problems and needs to be kept away from Covid policy as killing people is a lot worse!

  20. Kia ora John
    Requiring all workers to be vaccinating marginally reduces the risk of Covid in the workplace. The risk is not eliminated but of course elimination is no longer the government’s goal.
    “No jab no job” is, on the other hand, a policy with massive adverse consequences for the individuals affected. They lose their income, maybe their home. Their families may go hungry. That is cruel and unusual punishment of the innocent and those whose only”crime” is to question the New Zealand government’s most recently arrived at and highly dubious “vaccination strategy”.
    The human impacts of the vaccine mandate policy are disproportionate to the supposed benefits it may bring. Those benefits may in fact be illusory. By creating excessive trust in the efficacy of a rather inadequate vaccine the government may be creating an atmosphere of complacency which will allow the virus to spread further and wider.
    I suspect that the people who say that the whole vaccine passport idea is a dress rehearsal for a more thorough going fascism may have a point.

  21. OH for Christ’s sake – really??? We don’t vaccinate to gain immunity from Covid but to lessen its effect should we catch it! Vaccinated people who catch Covid are less likely to be a burden on the health system, unlike those who are unvaccinated and get it, who will likely need hospital care. So, in expressing “their rights,” anti-vaxxers are selfishly imposing a totally avoidable extra burden on our already creaking health system, thereby increasing the risk to everyone’s health.

  22. Totally agree John. This govt is determined to separate us. I’m half vaccinated but hold absolutely no grudge against those who do not.

  23. I can’t get to work without driving.
    The fascist government is denying me my freedom to seat-belt restraint-free driving.
    I won’t be restrained so they are taking away my job! It is a gross overreach.
    And they force me to drive on the left.

    • Yawn. Double yawn.

      No human right to drive reflected in multiple treaties and law, and seat belts are a minor inconvenience that doesn’t actually stop anyone driving.

      There is actually such human rights reflected in treaties and law on the right to refuse medical treatment, associate, movement, work, attend church, keep medical information private, and more. Mandated vaccination and passports literally stop a person from doing all of these, and more every day activities, such as simply going to a barber.

      You’re going to have to find a new analogy that makes even one iota of sense I’m afraid.

    • You can apply the same argument to wearing helmets.
      I guess the distinction is, the impact on other people,when it comes to vaccination or not.
      Maybe people who are in jobs where they interact with a number of others should reveal whether or not they are vaccinated and those using their service can decide on that basis.
      Its a big wedge to divide communities.
      The school situation is a can of worms… for example how often do non vaccinated teachers need to be tested?
      How often do people who are vaccinated need to be tested?

    • Show me a car that won’t drive without the seatbelt engaged (and every car has a light for it, so it would be trivial to make this happen), and your comparison would be appropriate. As it is, it isn’t anything like forcing people to be vaccinated to be able to work.

    • I already posted a comment to this, but I guess it got nuked for reasons???? Anyway, my point was your car analogy doesn’t apply whatsoever since cars still drive if you have a seatbelt on or not (and it would be easy to make that “mandatory”, given every car has a light to remind you to do it). Same for helmets on motorbikes/bicycles – no motorcycle won’t let you ride one without it on regardless if it “allowed”. This Govt Covid mandate is entirely different.

    • I know Richard. And what’s more, they do their damndest to save people whether they’re vaxed or not. It’s a cruel world.

  24. No John, what is unhelpful and unscientific is this hot-take, which rather than merely ‘respecting’ the choices of the unvaxxed, seems to offer them moral absolution from the consequences of that choice. This was always gonna be a tough circle to square for some on the ‘memememe’ hippy-dippy left – what about the workers, the vulnerable children, elderly and sick? Do they not deserve safety and protection in public spaces? Perhaps we were wrong all along in disrespecting the choices of exploitative employers to create unsafe and inequitable conditions at their selfish whim, and destroy the environment for a quick $?

    Tolerance is one thing, but respect? No, I will not respect that selfish, cowardly, and irresponsible choice.

    • then vape it’s fun, makes you groovy, attractive to women and adds at least 1inch to your cock…

      seriously it’s a valid option despite smokefrees ‘vapour looks like smoke so it is smoke’ anti scientific bullshit….now there is science denial in CAPS.
      meanwhile the UK wants to make e-cigs a prescription item…welcome to NZ the Louisiana of the pacific.

  25. Jacinda has show her true tinpot dictator colours. Get the peasants to fight amongst themselves. You know that guy with the signs saying “she’s just a pretty communist ” well it turns out he was right. The messiah who was going to bring kindness, end child poverty and fix ghe climate. Is just another sociopath obsessed with power.

    • Wot? Jacinda a tinpot dictator? A Sociopath? Obsessed with power?
      Sorry, but only your tinfoil hat minority friends are going to believe that.
      Take less of whatever it is you are taking.

    • So I guess…you were dropped on your head as a baby or…you’re on drugs or… you’re just plain nuts. Whatever it is, I don’t want to go to that place.

      • Covid is not Blue, Red, Green or any other colour except Black if you lot don’t Get Real. Also disappointed in you JM because I respect your anti apartheid stance. I think you’re out of your depth here, brother.

  26. “Myself and my partner discussed vaccination for Covid and we decided we would get vaccinated – not for ourselves but for the “common good”. – the problems with this argument start here. In other words, John doesn’t believe getting vaccinated is necessary for most people, which basically makes him an anti-vaxer

  27. And forcing us to pay rates for our roads and utilities, how fair is that? Wait, we pay the council our rates, even better, I can tell our mayor Sandra Goudie I’m not paying rates anymore, because It’s my personal choice not to and I’m not going to give a reason!

  28. Nothing about Covid-19 justifies this government over-reach. We’re not dealing with Ebola or anthrax; we’re dealing with a virus that has a median IFR of only 0.23% (WHO study published October 2020). And yet for this rather undangerous disease the government is ready to deprive people of their livelihoods because they don’t want an experimental vaccine injected into their bodies – it’s astonishing and dismaying. When will this extraordinary mass hysteria stop?

  29. I might get the jab next year, when you fellas are getting your fifth booster which doesn’t work. Or I could just identify as vaccinated…boom! Untouchable.

  30. What worries me John is the other things our government are doing (like rushing through important legislation) while we are all preoccupied with Delta. Then we have brought over 300 plus Afghanistan peoples with yet another one thousand still to come when many NZers particularly our Maori whanau who are living in motels and crap accommodation and they can’t find anywhere half decent to live in our own bloody country.
    This is not good enough.

  31. Unlike the “Johnny come lately” torys and conspiracists posting above, I usually agree with with 99% of Mr Minto’s views.

    But we part company on this one. There are enough publicised death bed regrets from unfortunate non vaccinated sods in various countries now surely to get the point across? Vaccination is a public health issue not a tin foil hat one.

    Nor is it an excessive authoritarian move by the Govt. in the dire situation. For crissakes–there were incredible powers vested in the state well before COVID appeared. From photo driver licenses through to the Key Govt. giving massive budget increases to the state snoops and extra powers, what did any of you do? I wrote submissions, and attended meetings and rallies. There was passive compliance from most NZers with warrantless surveillance, life time anonymity for operatives, and all the rest of it.

    Vaccination mandates are for the purpose of saving lives and unnecessary misery. Grow up some of you.

  32. Those that are vaccinated are safer than those that are not . This seems to be enough of a balance to try and protect our children as much as possible. I would not want my gchildren taught by a person that has a strange opinion of the common good by ignoring the overwhelming majority of experts that getting vaxed is the right think to do as it protects those that cannot be vaxed.

  33. As Darien Fenton said in a post the other day where was “your body my choice argument” when the compulsory Drug testing at work places came into effect. Where was your opposition against drug use by people before going to work ? This is the same situation the communities right over rides the individuals right in this situation. People lose their jobs every day due to the drug testing law . Where is your opposition to this. There has been none because it didn’t involve your area of work. Now it does and now you squeal in opposition. If these anti vax people have no legitimate reason to not vaccinate other than being basically vaccine then they take the same risk that drug uses take when applying for jobs or on the job.

    The facts of the matter are the unvaxed spread a 800% more viral load in a workplace than the vaccinated and they can start spreading it within hours of being infected not like the alpha version which was 2 to 5 days latter .
    The delta spreads within hours to 2 days after infection.
    So I BACK COMPULSORY Vaccination fullstop .

    • How many times does it have to be said. The right to refuse medical treatment is a huge, fundamental human right – for good reason. Personal autonomy and bodily integrity underlines so many rights in a Liberal democracy.

      There is no right to take illegal drugs. None. Zip. Nada. And they can have an immediate danger to others which cannot be avoided by other people taking a vaccine etc (i.e. from mechanical accident, etc). Vaccination offers good protection against serious illness and death (otherwise why the hell are we getting it?!).

      The analogies just don’t hold up because the justification just doesn’t hold up. 800% is a figure plucked from air.

      This is about stopping someone from working, from getting a haircut, from an education – it’s MASSIVE. It’s not that people like me don’t care about others, it’s simply the extreme cost to our freedom and rights in a supposed democracy massively outweighs the danger to vaccinated people (see Infection Fatality Rate around 0.25% and continuing viral transmission of the vaccinated) and the cost of a two-class society of never ending boosters. It’s not even in the same ballpark.

      • The right to refuse medical treatment for yourself is your choice and I respect that…..but only if that choice does not cause my family and friends etc to contract the highly transmissible disease you may be carrying during a pandemic and then become extremely sick and suffer a totally avoidable death. If you wish to selfishly ignore the high risk to others of your choice then I respectfully suggest you buy some land in a remote area and live off the grid with no contact with other humans….apart from humans that willingly and knowingly accept the risks associated with your choice.

        I can see here that common sense is not always so common.

        • Bro if Delta was so serious then why did it take til July (just as delta was on our doorstep) before the govt did anything about it?

          Obviously they never thought it was serious whilst is was running rampant throughout the world, but now it politically expedient to do so…

          • I wish I could emphatically answer that Bg. From where I sit, it appeared to be an epic fail from leadership. NZ was gifted an opportunity to get ahead of the virus but looked to have sat on their hands for months. The writing was on the wall in early August just prior to the Auckland outbreak commencing when this information came out. “Only nine port workers out of the 98 who encountered the Rio de la Plata container ship in Tauranga had been fully vaccinated against Covid-19 and only two had received their first dose”

            If that was any reflection of the bigger picture months into the vaccine rollout, we were an accident just waiting to happen.

            I’ve heard the Government saying there were supply issues with the vaccine but that contradicted previous statements that there were no supply issues.

            The pitiful rate of our early vaccination rollout appears to be complacence from both the Government and a far percentage of the population due to being Covid free for so many weeks. No reflection on how deadly the disease can be. This all changed promptly when the Auckland outbreak emerged in August. I remember well sitting in a line of cars that stretched for miles waiting to get vaccinated.

      • The 800% figure is not plucked from the air it is scientifically proven and published by the WHO and every other legit medical entity and medical Journal.
        A vaxed person carries a 800% less viral load of the delta variant compared to the unvaxed person of the delta variant.
        This is undisputed fact.

        • Geoff,

          After a catalog of epic blunders in early 2020, I no longer consider details released by the WHO as undisputed fact. Very comfortable however to accept the updated scientifically proven data on the efficacy of the vaccine against the Delta variant. My query resulted from those percentages being identical to the quoted protection provided for earlier less transmissible variants.

  34. Alas there is a lot of white noise around rapid antigen tests and John you are in poor company with Judith Collins, Chris Bishop and various business wallahs (intellectual giants – not!) in mistakenly thinking they are some kind of real solution at this point in time.
    – do not necessarily give correct answer
    – even worse when self administered
    – not great in a very low prevalence population.
    Perhaps in 6 months when the virus in endemic especially in unvaxxed they may have some use.
    Oh but they are so quick they must be good – we must have them and have them now.
    Several 100 million dollars worth of PCR lab testing in our labs which have been the engine room of the COVID response in charting and enabling management of the virus.
    And now getting with every lever possible to Max Vax that is what will continue the unbelievably astonishing success that we have had in keeping all safe. You can say no the vax but that comes with a real cost – tough – no sympathy – especially when so many lies and distortions are spread by the naysayers.

  35. You are a teacher aren’t you John?
    I thought you would be in the forefront of a campaign to get teachers vaccinated to protect children instead of dragging your feet because of your historic distrust of the state. Dave Dobbyn said it best – COVID is the real enemy here.

  36. “and who can show their non-covid status at any time.” .. Oh, I had not realised that every shop, restaurant, fast food outlet, convention center, aeroplane/ship , music venue and sports stadium were going to be supplied testing equipment, or training on it’s use.. I learn something new every day..

  37. Logically, isn’t making it mandatory for people to stay home in lockdown or wear masks the same as the vaccination thing. Right from the beginning just leaving it up to people would have been the way to go, the survival gene would’ve kicked in and the vast majority would have done what authorities wanted.

    Same with numbers getting together, attending gatherings and so on. And people coming back into the country – people should’ve been given guidelines about staying home, they would have followed those and things would be sweet.

    Wouldn’t they?

  38. it’s darwin in action, ‘fittest’ doesn’t just apply to physical prowess but intellectual adaptability, if the ‘hard of thinking’ want to cull themselves, so be it…..I just don’t wanna put up with their whaaa whaaa whaaaa cries of why me, my kids and my granny…..if you wanna be a dick, own it.

  39. Rapid Antigen Tests are only 80% accurate and less sensitive at detecting early stage infection.

    Unvaccinated people are about 7 times more likely to infect a coworker or customer (based on the 85% effectiveness rate of the Pfizer vaccine). Workers and Employers have an obvious interest in creating a safe workplace).

  40. This is a plague – it isn’t going away. Only timely scientific findings carried out in a practical manner will save us. This isn’t WW1 with noncompliants like Archibald Baxter being tied at the front line just to show him…something or show others that they had to stick it in place. We all need to be little soldiers hereand find a way to stick it in ourselves when we otherwise freak out. And look after the weaker, the wanton and the wilful, or they may get Covid19 and give it to family, neighbours even strangers who will never get the chance to become friends. Has Rob Hewitt – ex-Navy diver – been asked to put some life-charging messages forward, and be paid for it or have donation to his organisation. He is a hero of mine – such a strong mind – positive and practical. https://kmko.nz/kohikohi-%E2%80%93-gathering-seafood-and-our-indigenous-connections-to-water

    The message should be – Stop being life-surfers and be part of life because it is a life or death century. The oldies will die out and then there will be no-one else to blame for your dissatisfactions.

  41. Usual dribble comments from people working from home. Copy pasted media to prove their point. All getting a little boring. John makes a fair point, why can’t someone have an opinion without being bullied into a murdering antivax supporter. I spent 4 hours in a room with Delta no vax no mask, unaware the person was ill and contagious. I never had any symptoms and all tests came back negative. All humans are different, let people make a choice of their own. It’s their body not yours. There is a thing called natural immunity, countries with much more covid experience are now starting to use this and vaccines/boosters as part of the strategy.
    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10654-021-00808-7
    There is also a thing called compassion, regardless of your vaccine status, if you fall Ill, I’d happily help you.

    • Is natural Immunity without first having delta a thing? Serious question. I’ve always understood one must have it before being able to develop natural immunity for next time. Not sure why I didn’t consider that before, as I am immune to one of the strains of hepatitis without ever having had it. Probably data overload

    • And if you fall ill then someone has to help you so as to keep society’s guidelines or else only the end of lifers will step up perhaps. Your thinking is out CJ.

  42. Since reading all these comments I wonder how much the efficacy has waned? Boosters will only go so far. Cannot vaccinate out of this pandemic.

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