Keep New Zealand Nuclear-Free – Stay Out of AUKUS!

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THANK GOD New Zealand is not a member of the new “AUKUS” alliance. Australia, the United Kingdom and the United States have joined forces in a military pact that has only one purpose: the intimidation and restraint of China. The price of admission to this latest demonstration of Anglo-Saxon hegemony is a willingness to “go nuclear”. Not a problem for the US and the UK, both of which have possessed nuclear weapons and nuclear-powered vessels for decades. It is, however, a very big, and potentially disastrous, step for Australia, which once boasted a nuclear-free movement every bit as noisy (remember Midnight Oil?) as New Zealand’s.

Indeed, had the Australian Prime Minister, Bob Hawke, not been a highly valued CIA asset of long-standing,  it is possible – even likely – that both Australia and New Zealand would have ended up declaring themselves “Nuclear Free”.

The consequences of such a double declaration would have been profound. Not to be outdone by these far-flung antipodeans, the Nordic countries may well have followed suit. In time, the whole of the Southern Hemisphere may have rejected the madness of “mutual and assured destruction”. Seeing Reds, the Americans would certainly have had several pink fits. Not enough, though, to prevent the world from taking a slightly different course.

An intriguing counterfactual history, to be sure. What actually happened, of course, is that the Americans, having failed to “secure” David Lange as they had secured Bob Hawke, were taken completely off guard when the New Zealand Labour Party followed the breadcrumbs of sanity out of the nuclear forest. Washington was mightily pissed-off, naturally, but hey – at least it wasn’t Australia!

Certainly, Australia has never wavered in its determination to be the United States “Deputy-Sheriff” in what is now called the “Indo-Pacific” region. Ever since Japanese bombers, in about the same time it took them to get their bomb-bays open, sank HMS Repulse and HMS Prince of Wales – and with them all the illusions of an overstretched British Empire – Canberra has tossed all its diplomatic and military chips into Washington’s pot. It does not intend to be caught out ever again as it was in December 1941. Henceforth, Australia would be right there in the room when the strategic decisions were being made – not 12,000 miles away. When your enemies are close, says Canberra, keep your friends closer.

The only alternative to taking up residence in Uncle Sam’s rectum, as far as the national security boffins and senior military brass were concerned, was for Australia to develop its own atomic bomb. Nuts? Maybe, but for a much longer period than one might have thought possible (1961-1973) the Australian right-wing governments of Robert Menzies and his successors were willing to give it a go.  That they never quite managed to build an Aussie bomb was due largely to the refusal of the Brits and the Yanks to supply them with the wherewithal to do so. Anglo-Saxon imperialism may have been pretty crazy, but it wasn’t that crazy!

Fifty years on, and how things have changed. Washington is now willing to lease a dozen or more Los-Angeles-class nuclear-powered submarines to the Australian Navy. Why? Because, almost certainly, the secret protocols of the AUKUS Pact make it clear that, along with the nuclear-powered attack submarines, Australia will be given access to the “technology” it has always craved. Finally, Canberra will have what it takes to wipe the smirks off the faces of the Generals of the Peoples Liberation Army. Very soon America’s Deputy-Sheriff will be packing nuclear pistols.

If all this sounds like one of those paranoid Aussie television series, then it only goes to show that if you want to tell the truth – write fiction. AUKUS is proof positive that the Anglo-Saxon world has lost its nerve. It is the twenty-first century equivalent of circling the wagons against the Native Americans. The US faces an array of enemies it is no longer certain it can beat – not without destroying itself at the same time. Equipping the Aussies with nuclear submarines (and other things) represents the moment in the Western movie when the grizzled old wagon-master reluctantly places a six-gun in the eager hands of a twelve-year-old. Ordinarily, he wouldn’t think of it, but there are “Injuns” out there, and the wagon train needs every gun it’s got.

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The New Zealand Government, its Prime Minister and Minister of Foreign Affairs especially, will happily stay as far away from this lunacy as possible – and the country’s anti-nuclear legislation gives them the perfect excuse. Moreover, with its paltry team of five million and its disturbing unwillingness to beat the war drum as enthusiastically as its much larger and more co-operative neighbour, New Zealand is dispensable. For the moment, Washington is perfectly happy to have the Kiwis cooling their heels outside the room where the big strategic decisions are being made.

All of New Zealand’s recent history, however, suggests that not being in the room is a situation which the New Zealand Defence Force will deem intolerable. It is also highly likely that a significant number of senior bureaucrats at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade will be equally disturbed by our “no show” at the AUKUS party. They will be worried that Beijing, observing these developments from afar, will see a gap just large enough to accommodate a big, fat Chinese diplomatic lever. The “Deep State” (the military, key players in the state bureaucracy, and the national security apparatus) is unlikely to tolerate New Zealand being separated from its “traditional allies” for too long.

New Zealand’s prime minister, and her nuclear-free team of five million, should fasten their seat-belts: the next few months look set to give them all a very bumpy ride. As if fighting Covid-19 wasn’t enough, Jacinda should prepare for her very own anti-nuclear moment.

 

142 COMMENTS

  1. So when China invade us using their nuclear subs will we tell them thats not allowed, they can only use diesel? If China do invade will we tell the USA to stay away because nuclear is banned. Do you realize just how stupidly hypocritical we look… once again.

    • Yup, imagine China’s embarrassment when their nuclear submarines have to turn back from NZ’s shores when they realise we are nuclear free . . because let’s face it at the end of the day they are very reasonable and peace-loving people (just ask the Uighurs).

    • If China could invade us, they would have taken Taiwan a long time ago. Anyway why invade when you can just buy the bits you want at a cut price rate?

        • … and they are also working one building up the massive resupply capabilities needed for the “proposed” New Zealand Invasion? Or is it just easier to buy / threaten New Zealand politicians to get what you want?

          • A bit of both I suspect. One reason Australia got so pissed is coz Beijing attempted an end-run around the federal by trying to deals with Victoria & NT separately, tried to get a deep water port in Darwin and a substantial slice of Port at Melbourne. They also tried/trying to build a port facility in Vanuatu as part of Belt & Road …all in service of soft power projection which also itself in service of forward projection of hard power when they’re ready/should it become necessary by their reckoning. They’re pushing in Sth China Sea, against Taiwan, Philliipines, Vietnam and against India too. If Russia was weaker they’d push against them as well.

            • They need Russia to tie down the Yanks, Poms, Frogs & Canada in NATO aka Finland & the Baltic Nations. So West can’t centralised its over reaching firepower against China.

              The Battle for Taiwan is one of Battles they well happen at the same & don’t be surprised if rocket man makes a move on Sth Korea as well which would further dilute the ability to centralised all available firepower to one single objective.

      • The Americans, since 2011, have purchased land in Aotearoa equivalent to the size of greater Auckland. We probably do not have much to worry about from the Chinese.

    • Silly Ex Labour, if China for some weird reason decides to invade us with nuke subs, they won’t be asking will they. That’s why it’s called invasion. In preparation, I suggest you get your Hail Mary’s down pat. You’ll be needing them. Mind you, you’ll get to about Hail M…kaboom!

    • Paranoid or what, why would they invade us. China doesn’t need to invade us when they can use economics to control us not bombs. A much better way of doing business than the Afghan, Korea, Vietnam experiences of the western / US style of liberalization.

    • We have already been invaded by China. Beijing has absolutely no reason to be overt in it’s control of Aotearoa. We bent over for them a long time ago and have been getting a right shafting ever since! nobody seems to notice and nobody seems to care!

    • …or how naive we look is, I think, what you’re driving at. However I believe it worthwhile to stand for some principles. However we seem to be quite selective about which principles we are prepared to stand for.

    • So when China invade us using their nuclear subs….. Ex Labour

      How many landing troops do you think the Chinese can fit into a submarine?
      That’s right. Sweet F.A. Nuclear submarines are not tactical weapons, they are terror weapons.
      War is terrorism with a bigger budget.
      New Zealanders will do best to stick to our principles and have nothing to do with nuclear weapons of any type.

      • They can very good at dropping off or recovering DAT’s (Direct Action Teams) remember 87, this is how the Frogs recovered its DAT after the Bombing Rainbow Warrior. Given the state of the NZDF atm, This could be the Most Likely Course Of Action of the either side by inserting DAT’s to attack NZ’s vital strategic assets & installations (the Beehive isn’t one of them either btw).

        This is an indirect form of attack, which all Military & our Political Masters try an achieve. As it can achieve the biggest bang for your buck, by using SF DAT’s by aiming at a Nations Vital Assets & Installations or deploy Recon Teams for planning a Direct Attack.

        But for that to happen China would need to secure PNG, The Solly’s and Coral Sea, before it becomes a possible. The reason I say this is that NZ protects Australia’s Eastern & Southern Seaboard of Australia, as PNG & The Solly’s hold the key to Australia’s front door to it’s North East Approaches. Which makes NZ very attractive to base Naval & Long Range Air Assets like MPA, the H6 Bomber Armed with Cruise Missiles & UAV’s etc.

        Remember the Japanese came within a bee’s dick of securing the Coral Sea and if the IJN High Command won’t so rigid with executing their peacetime war plans by deploying the Combined Fleet into the Indian Ocean. But instead into the Sth West Pacific/ Coal Sea which was ripe for picking to support its amphibious assault on Port Moresby & Striking Sth to New Caledonia & East towards Fiji etc. The NZ”s WW2 History would very different indeed & would very similar to Australia’s War History.

  2. Apropos my blog below No Nukes, I say, “Well Done Labour”.

    From a different perspective however I am amused to read how France has condemned the deal as a “stab in the back”.

    Now they know how the Russians felt when France refused to release the aircraft carrier for which the Russians had bought and paid the construction costs.

    In both the French and Aussie cases, it was America who pulled the strings.

    Vicissitudes of War mongering

  3. Well, our esteemed PM is trying to have a buck each way already unfortunately–according to numerous media reports she has welcomed the involvement of USA and UK in the region, and sees no disruption to traditional relationships, but, says Australian Nuclear submarines will not be welcome in NZ waters as per our Nuclear Free Legislation.

    A contemporary No Nukes movement will be needed to hold the PM to that undertaking I imagine!–and further–the demand in 2021 should be to ditch 5 Eyes, and pursue an independent foreign policy as a Pacific Nation.

  4. Although our media got themselves into a frenzy yesterday, I could not work out how NZ not been invited to this spend up was anything but a blessing.

    Aussie citizens wake up to spending up massively on Nuclear subs. Whist still paying the penalties for reneging in the previous two contracts with Japan and France. Gee whiz, aside from the warped Peter Dutton, and the Brits who will cash in on this, who else thinks this is good?

    And WTF is the UK up to? What is their claim to this part of the world? The Royal Navy is now a pipsqueak. Cruising around the globe in their latest Aircraft Carrier is cool but almost as futile, if not more so than their disaster at Singapore in 1941 when they also sent and immediately lost two of their battleships to fight the Japanese. Too little, too late in a part of the world they were no longer wanted in.

    This is typical Australian politicians at work, trying to be the big boys. Christ they’re pathetic.

    As for the UK, give it a bone guv. You’re a has been whose empire long since disappeared.

  5. If we were officially Aotearoa instead of New Zealand we would have been invited in – AUKAUS sounds like killer whales, but AUKUS cannot fit NZ in anyway and still look cool.

  6. A problem might be that as pointed out by Jonathan Coleman on magic radio last night, Australia is New Zealand’s only formal ally . So if Aus is attacked by(or presumably if she attacks) China or anyone else we are obliged to join in. And as Aus is tied to the US apron strings we in turn are tied to Australia’s. So they didn’t need to consult us we are in anyway.
    D J S

      • Good question.
        There won’t be a war between the US and either Russia or China ( or both since they have agreed to join forces if necessary) because Russia has made it clear that it will not fight another major war on it’s own soil. It will deliver the war to the source of it’s instigation with the delivery systems it has demonstrated and that the US cannot counter. So all their posturing is B S . This is about trying to cut China out of the source of raw materials she needs, Aluminium ore , Iron ore and uranium ore. But China is going to carry on buying it from Aus anyway and Aus is going to carry on selling it.
        D J S

  7. I’m looking forward to a kiwi armada of protesters boats really giving the Aussies the big finger as they bring a nuclear boat into one of our harbours. The best bit will be watching it on the 6pm news. Fuck off Aussie, take your toys somewhere else. The Aussies think they own us, well fuck them. Sabre rattling towards the Chinese is madness. NZ stay clear of this shambles.

  8. AUK? Isn’t that an extinct flightless bird? But seriously, if they tried to tack NZ onto AUKUS, it would surely trigger an insurrectionary protest movement on at least the scale of the Springbok Tour, which as I recall was once described as a “strange, surrogate civil war.” New Zealanders and still more so the Rangatahi have lots of reasons to dislike official Australia at the moment, e.g. the 501ers, a helot underclass of non-citizens, a neo-colonial banking relationship which pumps NZ dry via jacked up house prices and mortgage interest, the way that the place seems to be a last bastion of “paranoid white nationalism” (as their own internal critics say) of a kind that is now totally out of step with the way things are here, and so on and so forth. In short, the Apartheid South Africa of the 2020s as far as many of us are concerned and the perfect foil for a sort of uprising against any government that gets too chummy. On top of that, I am sure the Chinese would look favourably on any such protest movement. You could write a thriller about this . . .

  9. Dear ex-Labour
    ”So when China invade us ‘” That is far too unsubtle for the heirs of Zhou En Lai.
    Lenin said, ‘We will not have to hang the capitalists – they will hang themselves and we will sell them rope.”
    It may not have been true for Lenin and the Soviet Union but it is true for Communist China.
    Please take a close look at what the Chinese do. They have bribed and will continue to bribe our politicians( as they do in Africa and elsewhere). This gains them access to land, water and other resources.
    Our economy is export driven and China is now our main market for exports. ‘The customer is always right” philosophy means we dare not argue with our main customer.
    Free Trade destroyed our domestic manufacturing and processing industries( I bought a can of Pam brand peaches yesterday and see it is made in China, likewise canned fish and meat). We are now dependent on overseas imports – mainly from China – because we no longer manufacture goods.
    Chinese purchase and therefore control of Western media blunts criticism of China, is useful for disinformation, and the spread of influence.
    The Chinese Communist Party achieved power because it realised that the political process is more important than the military.
    We could solve this by finding new markets or returning to old ones so we do not have all eggs in one basket. The UK leaving the EU provides an opportunity here.
    On the domestic front we could nationalise our assets, land and water ignoring any ownership rights by foreign owners.
    This is exactly what the Chinese Communist Party did with foreign owned companies in China in 1949 which I think is the perfect answer to any protest by the great Asian bully.

    • Thank you for mentioning a lot of reasons why China doesnt need to invade and bomb us (economic and political) so no need for us to be part of this

    • +1 “Lenin said, ‘We will not have to hang the capitalists – they will hang themselves and we will sell them rope.”
      It may not have been true for Lenin and the Soviet Union but it is true for Communist China.
      Please take a close look at what the Chinese do. They have bribed and will continue to bribe our politicians( as they do in Africa and elsewhere). This gains them access to land, water and other resources.”

      Something popped up today!!! Not really being highlighted in MSM in NZ!

      China applies to join Pacific trade pact
      https://www.odt.co.nz/business/china-applies-join-pacific-trade-pact

      One thing to realise is that NZ imports as much as it exports to China.

      The exports from NZ to China are nearly the same as to OZ and US together. Followed by Japan, Korea, Germany, Thailand.

      Putting all our eggs with China, and angering our other trading partners is not a good idea!

      https://trendeconomy.com/data/h2/NewZealand/TOTAL

  10. Chris, you say “Keep NZ nuclear free” but why exactly? When it comes to nuclear power, as opposed to nuclear weapons, what exactly is your problem? Nuclear has proven to be the safest and most reliable method of generating electricity.
    If we are to convert all of NZs fleet of cars, trucks and buses to electric in the next few years to meet our climate obligations, we’re going to need additional electricity capacity in the order of tens of Gigawatts. We’re not going to achieve that with windmills.

    (As for AUKUS, we simply weren’t invited. We’re on the outside thanks to our childish political grandstanding since Lange. So don’t expect a trade deal with the UK any time soon.)

    • “Nuclear has proven to be the safest and most reliable method of generating electricity”
      Tell that to the people that live near Chernobyl and Fukishima.

        • Good points but despite that, it is the general fallout/radiation contamination that is the worry. That said, – it is amazing when they reported that the wildlife around and in Chernobyl itself was thriving and healthy within a very few scant years of humans abandoning it.

          Which goes to show that there is something about us human beings that the natural world finds,… kind of toxic. Far more so than any fallout from nuclear radiation….

        • If you believe anything written by Forbes, Andrew then you have effectively divorced yourself from the ranks of humans who can think for themselves.

      • As well as being full of extreme risks, nuclear power is also extremely uneconomic! It costs a fortune… countries do it to help their nuclear war industry…. but apparently for the good of the planet we are ending nuclear proliferation. I hope this is true. Obama Bin Laden looked at a nuclear bomb for the world trade centre terror attack and even the terrorists ruled it out as too extreme. Let’s hope we paddle back from extremism and nuclear war, not to it! We have enough problems with climate change and natural disasters.

        My view is NZ needs to paddle back from Chinese influence, keep better relations with OZ and the US and UK and EU and gain back some world real appreciation for NZ to be a small but more neutral player in world politics, that actually came from our stand on nuclear free.

        Also the free trade agreement might have been started with good intentions, but with growing world inequality, global slave labour and commodities taking away democracy and creating division in the west, time to take another look at the poor effects of this which while helping the so called third world, seems to be destroying the west and democracy, instead of growing democracy in the third world.

    • Hanlons razor?
      Where is the proof to your wierd (I am trying to be ploite) claims?
      Driverless taxi EV’s will mean an approx 90% reduction in cars, so less traffic, parking and road maintenance issues. They’re way safer than humans today but politics stops them being fully implemented.
      Most EV’s will be charged from home, using solar cells and off peak electricity.
      Don’t lazily believe everything the pro oil industry tells you. Do some of your own research.

  11. How do we know that nuclear subs arent and haven’t been in NZ waters? I don’t think they give you a courtesy call first?
    Once the ozzies are geared up they won’t give a fuck either.

    All our traditional Dams are coming up to or already have passed their use-by date. Stick a couple of nuclear energy plants in the south island. She’ll be right!

  12. “Fifty years on, and how things have changed”

    Is this not the crucial issue? Back in the day one had essentially a situation with two nuclear blocs. Game-theoretically appalling, but much more simple/tractable than the multi-polar situation today. A policy where we and Aus got on board “nuclear free”, dragged Scandanavia in, may once have affected two-bloc dynamics – and taken it closer to no nukes. May have been a hinge of fate. But fifty years on, how indeed have things changed? Can others afford the NZ conceit of simply wishing the situation isn’t what it is (a position only a few small actors like us can afford)? Does Australia’s choice make sense in the multi-polar situation of today? Surely it is not as open/shut as you say Chris? Are we seriously accusing Aus of wanting or courting nuclear war, cos some generals or conservative pollies like cool toys? Sounds like a straw-man. Surely they are making a judgement as to how best to secure peace? What’s the steel-man of their position? I’m just a chump. I don’t know.

    I’m glad nuclear issues are back on the agenda. My generation (millennial) has been out to lunch on them, which – like free speech – we can never afford to be.

    • If history teaches us anything, Brenty, it is that the upper echelons of the military and the politicians who pander to them are always and everywhere the gravest threat to the safety of humankind.

      It is one of those extraordinary pieces of dumb luck that JFK had just finished reading Barbara Tuchman’s “Guns of August” (about the outbreak of World War I) when the Cuban Missile Crisis erupted in October 1962. It meant that he was more than usually sensitive to the mindset of military commanders in times of crisis and refused to be pressured into authorising a military response that would have sparked a full-scale nuclear exchange. If he had been guided by the likes of Curtis Le May, civilisation as we know it would have ceased to exist 59 years ago.

      So, “Are we seriously accusing Aus of wanting or courting nuclear war, cos some generals or conservative pollies like cool toys?” Yes, I’m afraid we are. Australian foreign and defence policy is now being run by individuals who see war with China as inevitable, but who don’t see that war with China will escalate inexorably to a full-scale nuclear exchange.

      Which is why New Zealanders should take this latest example of Australian bellicosity extremely seriously.

      • Astute analysis and thanks for pointing out the flimsy decision making processes of the laeders. The geopolitical world order has had a dramatic shift because of and not in a good way. Australia is way too close and very bad nuclear powered vessels have made their way to this neck of the woods. Same with rocket lab, that was a big mistake to allow that to be built here. No where is remote enough to be safe now, away from the fray…

  13. AUKUS, an agreement that gives Australia membership to an elite group, the UK a new post-Brexit alliance and the US stronger commitments from allies to counter China.

    Obviously, the real target of this agreement, China, took offense. But now we have the French cut out of a submarine deal, a member of the larger EU. With the US withdrawal from Afghanistan, the EU now ponders whether it should develop a military force more independent of NATO. After the announcement of AUKUS, a surprised EU has claimed that it needs to create it’s own Indo-Pacific strategy. And in NZ we will be left to debate whether we are a freeloader to the more prepared Australia, or are a more pragmatic neighbour less willing to commit fully to US interests.

    The agreement may have brought three nations closer, but it also may have created fissures within the wider West.

  14. Just how you propose the NZDF to Enforce the EEZ in peacetime and be able To Defend, To Protect, To Deny access to NZ’s Sea Lanes of Communications when it becomes a 2 Way Range from either side because NZ is a Export led Economy ie if can’t Export then it can’t import?

    The NZDF struggles to do this within its current Concept Of Operations and even within it current funding. Using fancy words and being Non aligned isn’t going to jack shit at Protecting, Defending Denying or even Enforcing NZ’s EEZ.

    Unless NZ is prepared To Defend, To protect, To Deny & To Enforce its EEZ and its SLOC. Then has to increase its funding to the RNZAF & RNZN or someone or some country is going to make that decision for NZ. I personally don’t like taking a pineapple up the ass had 25+ yrs of that from Officers and from very dumb short sighted Politicians, as I rather go down swinging as the world doesn’t owe little old NZ a living or a single cent! Remember what happen to NZ in 87 or have you forgotten about as well?

    What happen yesterday has became the real deal, it’s the shit sandwich that was slowly heading towards NZ and has arrived a lot sooner than expected.

    NZ from now on is likely to see more Foreign Subs, Spy Ships and other various Ships in NZ’s Area Of Influence incl its EEZ more likely in our Nth East- Eastern & Southern Side of our EEZ. Which NZ hasn’t seen since WW2 when the Germans (DKM) & IJN operated in NZ Waters when they under took offensive operations ie sinking Ships & or laying Sea Mines & undertaking Aerial Reconnaissance of Auckland & Wellington Harbour’s.

    Why? Because NZ protects Australia’s Eastern & Southern Seaboard, just like PNG & the Solly’s protects Australia’s Nth East Sea Approaches.

    A couple of Navy History lessons for everyone to read up on, the Sth West Pacific Naval Battles were a very close run affairs for the IJN and the Allies. My NZ Great Uncle was up that way during the War with the NZ Army btw.

    • EEZ = Economic exclusion zone?
      ————–
      …”Unless NZ is prepared To Defend, To protect, To Deny & To Enforce its EEZ and its SLOC. Then has to increase its funding to the RNZAF & RNZN or someone or some country is going to make that decision for NZ”…
      ————–

      Its upsetting, …but we have to grow up as a country and realize the apron strings we once attached to Great Britain is severed. We are literally cast adrift on an ocean of uncertainty. The sooner we grasp the notion of national sovereignty and all the responsibility’s that come with it,…the sooner we will gain clear perspective and thus the notions of self respect as a people, of our potential, of our ability’s outside of subservient globalism we will become.

      We are a great nation , and for many decades we have been consistently undermined by those elements who seek to degrade, denigrate and impoverish for their economic and political gains. To be able to treat us as pawns, as lackeys, as stooges. We are none of those.

      • Sounds like wishful thinking or something to aspire to. As a member of 5 eyes and ally to the US in unjustafiable war mongering aren’t we just that – lackys. NZ is in a position where it has to put a bob not just each way but multiple ways. We can’t afford to piss anyone off so our governments have taken the stance that we play along with just about everybody that can hurt us or help us. The question is Where to Draw the Line. However I completely agree with Chris that we must keep out of the nuke arena. Also spending up large on weaponry in general is futile for us.

        • You may take the Chris Trotter line of despondency regards revamping our military, I don’t. I also don’t subscribe to the negative thinking that we cannot lift ourselves beyond ‘pissing others off’,… first off , we have a duty to ourselves to look after OUR interests FIRST, secondly, the simple retort which is, ‘what have these major powers after WW2 ever done for us?’

          NOTHING.

          All they have ever done is treat us as lackeys. So your argument is circular.

          • WILD KATIPO said: “…the simple retort which is, ‘what have these major powers after WW2 ever done for us?’
            NOTHING.
            All they have ever done is treat us as lackeys.”

            I see we agree on that point.

            As for doing anything for us and perhaps why we became their lackeys, we were eternally grateful to the US for saving us from the Japanese in WWII.

            • Different era. Same as the era that produced our anti nuclear legislation. Is that also ‘ wishful thinking’ and just ‘ideas’?

              The U$A doesn’t seem to think so and it has dominated our trade relations since Lange.

              As for developing our own unique foreign policy is that just ‘wishful thinking and ideas’ as well?

              At what point do you start to believe we are a sovereign nation and if we wish to choose a particular path we have the right to?

              Or is that just ‘wishful thinking and ideas’ , according to you buddy?

              • I sympathathise but NZ walks a economic tightrope and our politics is designed to fit around that. So idealism like yours which I would happily aspire to will not work if NZers are to maintain the lifestyle they have become accustomed to. In saying that I acknowledge the huge divide in our country between rich and poor but unfortunately, money talks.

              • Well buddy, it wasn’t wishful thinking or just ideas. It was actual legislation. It also wasn’t the same era. It was a new era where NZ told its allies that its support only extended to use of conventional weaponry.
                I do agree that we should be a completely independent sovereign state and neutral but I think our politicians make these alliances hoping it will enable trade deals. The $ trumps the idea.

  15. So what makes us think Nuk powered subs from anywhere aren’t silently cruising the depths of our waters now. We wouldn’t have a F——g clue. We need to grow up a bit.

    • Do you remember a NZ fishing trawler dragged backwards/almost underwater until the skipper cut the cables with the fire axe? Lange said it was a whale with flatulence . They go where they want to.
      D J S

  16. Well before I go for ‘dinner’,… ‘tea’ in NZ, let me give you this great song from Leonard Cohen,…Hallelujah…its melancholy, yet it alludes to something , to something in all human beings, that we are special, that we are unique,…. that we are a family, and should start acting like a family.

    Leonard Cohen – Hallelujah
    https://youtu.be/YrLk4vdY28Q?t=5

  17. And as for the scam artist wankers who are hiding behind level 4 Auckland lock down to use that as an excuse to close down debate about AUKUS using the internet,…

    FUCK OFF!

    We know who you are as well.

    Watch your step, boys n’ girls, you aint ingratiating yourselves to us one bit, no how, and no way. How’s Blenheim, fuckers? Sun shining out your arse yet?

    • In fact, go back to the country from which you came from and beg forgiveness for the 300 years of genocides you committed against your own indigenous populations before you dare to spread your insidious influence here. Then we will listen to you. And yes, that’s a quote from Braveheart, something of which you lack. Courage.

      Traditional Lakota/Dakota Sundance Songs
      https://youtu.be/car9pBXHXKQ?t=8

  18. All in all I think NZ should feel rather good about this.

    Oz pays for military umbrella which we get for free.

    We don’t piss off the Chinese by being an overt member of the club.

    And what our piss poor media have entirely glossed over is the nuclear power plant on a military submarine runs on military grade enriched uranium. Effectively the US has done an “Israel” and gifted the Aussies a nuclear deterrent via the back door. I think this isn’t the worst thing for NZ; we end up with a big brother that has the biggest and nastiest toys in the club.

    Not entirely sure what the UK are up to here. It would appear they still haven’t gotten over their delusions of long lost empires.

    All up not a bad result for us Id say.

    • Heard of “MAD”–mutually assured destruction?

      It is substantially why barring a few close calls, that nuclear weapons were not used again after WWII. Nukes are too toxic and devastating for human populations to actually employ, and their production and by products have rather obvious downsides too.

      “UpsideDown” is likely a denizen of MFAT or Pipitea St–or is at least parroting their spin.

  19. Just as an aside, I question whether the agressive streak comes from the Anglo-Saxons. Isn’t it more likely stemming from the Normans? Not that I personally have any skin in the game. I’m Irish.

    • Some of those normans have got into Irish bloodlines, have they not?

      One of the enjoyable aspects about the aukus deal is how it is pissing off the french.

      • Good point about the Irish bloodlines, seer. I was of course alluding to the conquest culture in the West. Aside from the Saxons having been invaders did they devastate Scotland and Ireland before the arrival of the Normans? I do know the Saxons had a kind of feudal system but the Normans introduced a much more hierarchical and exploitive system.

  20. Well,well well, it’s a comforting thought that we get an umbrella of protection by default, if that were but true. (Protection from what?) It’s disconcerting that China has rattled the sabre by immediately saying they would have no compunction about nuclear bombing Australia if they poke their nose into Taiwan….that is a mite close to NZ don’t you think. The French are mightily pissed off too and surprised about this new deal, done by the back door and ‘a stab in the back’. China says its against the non proliferation treaty, looks like they are right there. We have a bit of scary nastiness going on in this new geopolitical upheaval made clear by this Anglo treaty and yeah its head down and shut up for NZ. The longstanding nuclear free stance is our biggest protection right now.

  21. Maybe. NZ should stick in a lowball bid for 3 or 4 of those ozzie French Submarines! Then we can spy on the Aussie Submarines!
    Make the deal cash on delivery because of the long build time. Have them built in France. They can carry all of the construction costs!

  22. New Zealand has become a bludger nation who believes that it does need to defend it’self.

    Possessing a Sailing Club , a Flying club and a midget ( although professional ) Army with ANZUS dead and gone , NZ could not defend itself against something the size of Bondi for more than an afternoon .

    For some weird reason your PM thinks that prattling on about 5 eyes will solve everything . Truth is NZ contributes bugger all to 5 eyes as well , I guess why it is now better known outside of NZ as 4 Eyes .

    As for your great friend up north , you had better be very very nice to that friend, because if your friend starts to play games with you as they have with Australia . then I with you the best of British !

  23. Has anybody figured it out yet?
    The US is just manufacturing Consent for another War. So far, the AU and UK have signed up with the US.
    We have been here before a number of times just in the last 20 years. Duh!

    • The CCP wants the war and they know that attacking Taiwan will cause one. That’s why the day they attack Taiwan will be the same day they send silent unannounced nukes the USA, UK and Australia. NZ will suffer from the fallout, perhaps our best friend China will then let us claim asylum in their country. I am sure they will treat us as equals. How far we have fallen. We should change our name to ‘New Quizling’.

  24. This situation should be a concern for us all. Revising the alliance arrangement against Japan in WW2, but this time against China. Setting the stage for nuclear war in the Pacific. The mainstream media don’t seem to realise the momentousness of this terrifying series of events.
    It could well be the great battle between East and West that has been looming, at the heart of the world’s problems for centuries, but this time a major hot war. To say that a direct confrontation that ultimately destroys the West and the East both, will be a major historical change of major proportions is an understatement. Sadly, there will possibly be no one left in any distant future to ever consider it as history. Nuclear war between the Western democracies and China will be the nail in the coffin for the said democracies and the autocratic states. It will also bring unprecedented ecological damage, possibly the destruction of all life on Earth. We have known since the 1970s that even a minor nuclear exchange would create a nuclear winter, 200 to 300 years of darkness, as the asteroid created when it hit the Earth 65 million years ago. It would not be a slow extinction event (slow in terms of human generations as opposed to geological time), of which we are some distance into, but a fairly sudden extinction event, possibly over a five to ten year period, with untold misery and suffering, beyond even the wildest imaginations and Godly visitations of the Old Testament prophets.

  25. The notion that because China considers Taiwan part of China, and because of its determination to bring Hong Kong, and Xinjiang completely into the fold, regardless of one’s views on this, these are long standing commitments of the Chinese Communists for many decades.
    Indeed the US recognised Taiwan as the legitimate representative of all of China up until 1979.

    Similarly the claim to the South China Sea, right or wrong, is not something new. It was a claim from the pre-communist Nationalist government – indeed Taiwan as the ‘Republic of China’ makes the same claim.

    To extrapolate China’s desire to settle long standing grievances and territorial claims in her own backyard to being a military threat to Australia and New Zealand is simply absurd, outlandish, and groundless fear mongering.

  26. Let’s be clear, using its media organs and translator to Xi spokesman, China has just now repeatedly threatened Australia with nuclear attack, for the heinous crime of not having a nuclear weapons capability, and, for not planning to build submarines that are equipped with nuclear weapons.

    China thinks it has a right to nuke Oz if Oz dares to get a nuclear reactor, because you know, having a reactor somehow magically violates:

    – the nuclear weapons non-proliferation treaty, even though a nuclear reactor is not a nuclear bomb, just like the four cylinder engine in your car is not a chemical bomb

    – the nuclear free Indio-Pacific, which China has stuffed with nuclear armed subs and nuclear armed ships… Yes we are watching

    In any case it’s far too late.

    Australia has had a running nuclear reactor since the mid 20th century. Oh the horror. Now China thinks it has a right to nuke Oz. Better get rid of that before the Chinese decide to nuke Oz.

    What’s worse, there are tens of millions of smoke alarms located in OZ, and millions in NZ for that matter, that are driven by….nuclear materials. OMG, OMG. The Chinese have now given themselves the right to nuke NZ.

    Clearly the mask is off.

    Oz needs like yesterday an independent, multipronged, strategic nuclear deterrent.

    Let’s get working on that…

    Also, all the nuke stuff could just be a diversion, from a Chinese bio attack against the West that will kill millions and decimate Western economies…I know that is far fetched, but hey, you know the Chinese generals charged with developing China’s war strategy literally wrote a book about doing just that….

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