Wow, the call by Tracey Martin to defer a decision on self identification rules was an explosion into an already bitter schism of social media war that has erupted between Identity Politics factions of gender fluid activists, fourth wave feminists, trans rights activists and biological gendered feminists.
The horrific failure of the recent Pride Parade, from 30 000 to less than 2000, will probably have given the Minister some comfort in the knowledge that the radicalism of the gender fluid activists, fourth wave feminists and trans rights activists don’t have wide spread support. The consultation period will give this political hot potato time to cool.
Allowing more voices to speak and their issues be addressed is a safe move on a topic that has become as aggressively tribal as this one has.
On the one hand there are feminists who argue this is a dangerous erosion of their ability to decide who can and can’t be in their spaces, on the other hand this is a basic human right that is being threatened in terms of that most sacred journey of human experiences – identity.
It feels uneasy to ask the majority to consider the rights of the minority, we want politicians to lead on these challenging issues, not throw it back to the baying majority like a one sided gladiatorial match.
There must be an easier way for Trans gendered or Intersex peoples to have appropriate identification documents for a range of basic tasks within society, denying them a path towards getting appropriate paper work to do things like enrolling at school seems cruel and beneath us.
The thing that has been lost in all of this ranker is dignity and compassion. People feel threatened, angry and resentful because these issues cut close to the bone and because we tend to be arseholes to one another on social media and people become entrenched in their position out of personal anger.
This entire debate requires a shit tonne of kindness because we are talking about people’s lives and identity.
I think Tracey is leading in that regard and trying to hold a debate that is respectful and kind. Much power to her for having the courage to engage.
Tracy is a lovely person.
I love her soft ways; – she is a gentle soul we all adore.
Meantime Cameron Slater has just claimed bankruptcy today see here.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12207250
BUSINESS
‘Incapacitated’ Whaleoil blogger Cameron Slater declares bankruptcy
26 Feb, 2019 8:32am
Whale Oil blogger Cameron Slater. Photo / Doug Sherring
NZ Herald
Whaleoil blogger Cameron Slater has declared himself bankrupt.
Slater suffered two strokes in October which left him partially paralysed on his right side and unable to concentrate and with speech and vision impairments.
The right-wing blogger issued an update on his health on his blog saying ongoing medical tests showed he remains severely “incapacitated”.
The blog post states that due to his health issues he is unable to work and subsequently had made the “very difficult” decision to declare bankruptcy due to being unable to generate revenue to fund defamation actions against him.
“The prospect of on-going ill health and potential further strokes means the advice of his medical team, lawyer, accountant, family members and those who, due to his incapacity, would have been appointed his guardians ad litem, is for him to completely withdraw from any activity other than rehabilitation,” the blog post read.
“This has led Cam to make the very difficult decision to declare bankruptcy, since he is unable to generate enough passive revenue to fund the three extremely expensive and in his opinion, vexatious, defamation actions against him.”
The post also noted that due to his condition, Slater would be ending his involvement with Whaleoil to focus on his rehabilitation.
Comparing Whaleoil to US site Breitbart, the post noted that it is possible for a publication to survive and grow without its founder.
“Whaleoil has become very much bigger than just Cam. Unlike Breitbart, when and if Cam’s health allows, he will return to the site, subject entirely to his medical team’s clearance,” the post said.
The post said Slater and his family would not be available for media comment.
So the gender issue is really all about Cameron Slater.
The world weaves in some very mysterious ways.
Well C.G with regards to Slater there is a god after all.
“denying them a path towards getting appropriate paper work to do things like enrolling at school seems cruel and beneath us.”
School children should not be changing their legal sex. Transing and everything that goes with it is a HUGE decision. Puberty blockers are experimental and irreversible causing sterilisation and sexual dysfunction.
Adults can make their own choices but children should not be legally transitioning.
Also they already can change their birth certificate sex through the family court with medical evidence.
Any certified doctor will tell you that because of the random nature of the way DNA comes together, eventually you’ll get people who are in every way in the wrong body. There is not always a straight line to the results, there’s parents, doctors and psychologists and nurses. It would be a disservice to place societies anxieties before some ones mental health. Having said that, subsidised co-payment as a policy prevents over consumption and wast of scares medical resources.
Sam with respect, the self identification of gender is a complex process with much research having been done from Freud forward.
There are several camps as to where the weight of evidence is interpreted, but no clear path to identify whether DNA or nurture are solely responsible. Opinion varies but their is a majority consensus that it seems a complex interaction between the two.
A youngsters development psychologically is heavily affected by interaction with the world and people in their life and particularly significant are those who are parent figures and the interaction between them as a group.
Putting gender identification as being solely or mainly DNA driven is not what medical opinion indicates, but is often a political ploy used in argument.
I know for a fact genetics plays a humongous part and I’ll prove it. Richie McCaw and Danial Carter both had career ending injuries but for the sack of there mental health and job prospects they were able to receive reconstructive surgery so that they could return to sports “entertainment” to complete there carriers as All Blacks. Every All Black is born with an oval ball in there hands and non of them will dispute that. There brains are just wired differently to kick, pass or run it. You can copy the All Blacks training regimes, language and gimmicks but you can’t take that brain, molded by thousands of kilometres of running and learning their craft and put it in another brain. If you could we’d all be all blacks.
You can say the same for trans people. You can’t take there brain guided by thousands of hours of knowing they’re in the wrong body and leave it in the wrong body because they ain’t playing games.
Minnie, the Court system is an expensive, labyrinthine, bureaucratic mess that is currently expensive and time-consuming. It is not as easy as you make out to be. I have an upcoming story that will reveal just how unnecessarily challenging the process really is.
School children do not ” change their sex” here in NZ. That is fear mongering and outright bullshit.
As for your fear mongering on puberty blockers, the ministry of health states:
“Blockers are a safe and fully reversible medicine that may be used from early puberty through to later adolescence to help ease distress and allow time to fully explore gender health options” https://www.health.govt.nz/your-health/healthy-living/transgender-new-zealanders/transgender-new-zealanders-children-and-young-people
If you can’t put your case truthfully Minnie, you don’t have much of a case to start with
The British Medical Journal wrote just this week
“Treatments for under 18 gender dysphoric children and adolescents remain largely experimental. There are a large number of unanswered questions that include the age at start, reversibility; adverse events, long term effects on mental health, quality of life, bone mineral density, osteoporosis in later life and cognition. We wonder whether off label use is appropriate and justified for drugs such as spironolactone which can cause substantial harms, including death. We are also ignorant of the long-term safety profiles of the different GAH regimens. The current evidence base does not support informed decision making and safe practice.”
Source: https://blogs.bmj.com/bmjebmspotlight/2019/02/25/gender-affirming-hormone-in-children-and-adolescents-evidence-review/
The Ministry of Health NZ has no grounds to state they are ‘safe’ or ‘fully reversible’. It’s worth noting there are no drugs approved for the indication of ‘blocking puberty’ in New Zealand.
CX, that is s blogsite. It is called ” BMJ EBM Spotlight”. Please point out where it states it is part of the British Medical Journal. I can find no such claim
As for the quote you provided from “BMJ EBM”, the article does not attribute it to any source. It appears to be opinion based.
If so, the Health Ministry statement stands
Looking into your link, CX, confirms that it is a private blogsite and is not the official British Medical Journal.
The website for the Journal is http://www.bmj.com and looks nothing like the blogsite you linked to.
As such, your info regarding blockers is questionable.
“BMJ EBM Spotlight is a free resource; free to read and free to share under Creative Commons licensing.
Ownership
BMJ Evidence-Based Medicine is owned by BMJ.”
So, fake news then? Well researched and debunked Frank.
Suggest you check out the provenance and look at the editorial board of the site which is owned by the BMJ.
Might also be a good idea to read the article before you dismiss it as ‘fake news’.
It’s written by :
Professor Carl Heneghan
Editor in Chief BMJ EBM, Professor of EBM, University of Oxford, Director of the Centre for Evidence-Based Medicine and a practising GP & clinical epidemiologist; and,
Professor Tom Jefferson who is a physician, researcher and campaigner for access to randomised controlled trial data; Senior Associate Tutor University of Oxford;
Visiting Professor Institute of Health & Society, Faculty of Medicine, Newcastle University
Lynn, the BMJ blog is unconnected to the British medical Association.
Lynn, is that blog connected to the BRITISH MEDICAL JOURNAL or not?? Or is it just using the BMJ initials???
Unless you can show us where its connected to the British Medical Journal, I call bull shit. Its a fake news site exploiting the initials of the British Medical Jounal.
I trust I’m fairly clear on this??
Minnie, you are presenting an inaccurate picture.
School children do not undergo sex change in New Zealand.
And puberty blockers are both safe and reversible.
There is very little you have said that is truthful and the question arises why you have been misleading.
Agree Martyn, Tracey Martin was impressive, calm under pressure. I would have liked to hear more from her but her points were cut off by an interviewer who kept interuptting her to express his own partisan views. She explained that the Select Committee had not considered the changes to the Bill, as they were inserted after the SC met. I think it positive that all views on the revised Bill will now be considered.
Didn’t Corin on Q+A say there were rumours TERFs had been lobbying Martin which influenced the decision? Wasn’t sure if this was journalistic inquiry or an injection to get Tracey to throw a wobbly (in the style of Lisa Owen)
Tracy Martin is a beacon of light in a sea of darkness.
One of the reasons I voted NZF in the last election was to get her into Government.
She has proven to be such a champion for the future health and wealth of our children in her endevours around the education reset / wellbeing of our most valuable and vulnerable citizens.
With Winston letting us all down with TPP and Immigration Compact it turned
out a vote not in vain.
She is a star Minister, with all her hard work, and deserves to be amongst the leadership of anything she turns her hand to.
And the above subject is part of that picture.
Cheers.
Keep up the excellent work Tracy.!! For We the People.!!!
Agreed – she is one of the most underrated people in parliament.
Martyn, you share a view with other enthuisiasts, that those who oppose the Bill are being nasty to people who want to trans. I haven’t heard antagonism towards trans people from the opposers of the Bill. Rather, vile accusations are fired at us from the supporters. On TDB I have been called ‘transphobic’ and even ‘demonising’ these people. I don’t accept the labels and suggest such tactics are becoming predictable and tedious.
Jamio, I have read many of the negative comments published by anti trans proponents. The gentler ones are simply couched in sugar coated terms, but are offensive regardless.
You yourself have made unproven suggestions that transwomen in prisons have been guilty of assaults against cis women, but have failed to provide the evidence. Before we condemn and dismiss an entire minority, let’s have that evidence before relying on hearsay.
Because I’m hearing of lot of it these days, much of it a repetition from the 1986 gay reform debate.
There is the case of Karen White (formerly Stephen Wood and David Thompson) is a convicted male rapist who now identifies as a woman, although has not undergone any surgery as far as I know, who sexually assaulted several women in a women’s prison
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/male-rapist-transfer-womens-jail/
Wow, you found one case, Andy. One.
Now tell me what you think of the other 99.999999999999% of rapists who are CIS men? Do you share the feminist view that rape is a male problem? If not, why not?
Isn’t it telling that you seem concerned only with one case you found, but at no other time do you concern yourself with this issue.
And if you label ALL trans women as potential rapists, do you apply the same principle that all men are potential rapists? If not, why not?
This person was a convicted male rapist that was admitted to a woman’s prison.
Is this not a cause for concern?
Is it not a concern that you are focusing on one individual (one!) And studiously ignoring the rape culture perpetrated by people who are 99.999999999999% cis men.
The reality, Andy, is that your faux concern is fixated on one minority and you are exploiting sexual violence against women and girls whilst ignoring the fact that rape is an act of violence and power carried out by cis men against women.
The fact you had to search out to find one case shows where you’re coming from on this issue.
“Do you share the feminist view that rape is a male problem? If not, why not?”
Women are also capable of sexual assault and rape, though it is predominately a male problem
I don’t label ALL trans women as potential rapists, anymore than I label all Muslims at potential Jihadis
However, the case of Karen White exposes some flaws in the UK prison system in that it doesn’t keep women prisoners safe
I think you’ll find on that Snopes website , Andy, that a trans-activist group pointed out that prison procedures were not followed. The fault is not with trans-people, but that the prison system stuffed up.
You avoided the rest of my points.
Especially about the potential for all men to be rapists according to your principles.
Frank,
I have an OIA from NZ Corrections. SIX women were assaulted by male-bodied people (who id as women) in the last 24 months. NO women assaulted a male-bodied person. There are so few assaults in women’s prisons there is no data to compare e.g. 0 or 1 in women’s prisons in the last 2-5 years. Any decent person would be SHOCKED at that statistic. It is happening because of ideology NOT science.
The facts are clear. Vulnerable women have been harmed by males who are larger and stronger. For example, males are 40% stronger in their upper body given the same weight for weight and height for height.
This issue has nothing to do with gay reform. That is a red herring. Homosexuality is a sexual orientation. Trans IS NOT. Further, homosexuals weren’t claiming others’ spaces in prison, refuges and sports etc.
This is an important issue for women. It is NOT about being ‘anti trans.’ That is just irrational ignorance. In fact, many trans people are anti self ID and support women.
Let’s see if we can actually get to a place where women’s rights are able to be discussed without name calling and anti-science rhetoric rearing its head.
Hillary, your comment seems to echo Janio’s, which she had clarified;
“, I have a letter that Corrections sent to a journalist under OIA which does state that in the last 18 months, six women prisoners have alleged they were attacked by some of the men transferred into the women’s prison. I was wrong to suggest that some of these men had previously committed crimes against women. Corrections say none of the group of men transferred had convictions for assaults on women.”
Until we see this OIA, it remains unproven.
Please forward the OIA release to me at fmacskasy@gmail.com.
So far we’ve heard much about it and the information quoted from it is conflicting.
Let us know if you get anything eh Frank.
Minnie, you outline an extremely critical issue. Above all, we must protect children.
Frank Macskasy, I have a letter that Corrections sent to a journalist under OIA which does state that in the last 18 months, six women prisoners have alleged they were attacked by some of the men transferred into the women’s prison. I was wrong to suggest that some of these men had previously committed crimes against women. Corrections say none of the group of men transferred had convictions for assaults on women.
As the journalist has not used the information himself and I did not receive it directly from him, I do not think it would be ethical to post it myself. I have have sent the letter to Martyn and asked if he would verify the contents.
Before I got the letter, I wrote to Corrections myself. When I get a reply I will make that public. I am impressed with the measures Corrections are taking to protect male prisoners who are vulnerable to attack and look after their welfare generally. The negative consequences of moving them into the women’s prison were not anticpated. I suggested when I wrote, they should set up a unit just for these males.
You should be more careful before making unfounded allegations against an entire minority. This is how demonisation begins.
You should have provided the letter to Frank in tge first place. He seems pretty straight-up when it comes to information.
As for “protecting children” , what is that supposed to mean?? Are you implying trans people are paedophiles?? Please clarify.
Actually I would have thought that the reason so many people want to be in women’s safe spaces is that men spaces are so unsafe. Maybe instead of men telling us who can and can’t be in our spaces (thank you so much for talking for us) they could make their spaces safer for boys and other men.
Janio “Corrections say none of the group of men transferred had convictions for assaults on women.” So a person transitioning to their preferred gender with the help of chemical hormones is not deemed by you to be their preferred gender – even though our law states that they are. Maybe while you are asking about assaults in womens prisons you could compare assaults by race, assaults by age, assaults by sexual orientation. A single statistic means nothing until you compare it to its cohort.
I have to agree with Minnie on the idea that school children should wait until they are older to change gender unless for medical reasons… also feel that JANIO and some of the lesbian community raise some valid points on treading carefully on this issue due to the rights of women potentially being trodden on. There is also the legal issues, sporting issues of gender or that people make the change for advantage reasons or to subjugate others aka a male rapist might decide to ‘change’ not because they are trans but to gain advantage over women and go to a women’s prison. A lot of people face considerable legal costs and distress and time due to their condition aka someone who is disabled, it is not a purely ‘trans’ issue that justice is slow and expensive… Caution ahead…
I also am pleased Tracy is in parliament. She is a rare thing in politics, well regarded by many!
MJolnir, where/when did I ever make “unfounded allegations against an entire minority”? Fantasy claims. If you and Frank understood the difference between sex and gender you would recognise my position is rational, not emotional. I don’t hate trans people. I dislike what a minority of them do when they attack women.
Protecting children is the basis of a raft of laws. They should be protected against the consequences of making life changing decisions before they are adults. The NZ Herald (29 April, 2017)carried a story about a teenage lesbian who changed her mind about transitioning, in the middle of a course of testosterone. Zahra Cooper found she couldn’t reverse the effects of the drug and hates her deep voice – but likes being a woman.
“I don’t hate trans people. I dislike what a minority of them do when they attack women.”
Funny though how you fixate on the “minority” Janio. Why is that?
I’m reminded of racists who deny their racism with the cliche, “I’m not racist, some of my best friends are [insert ethnic minority here].”
“Protecting children is the basis of a raft of laws. They should be protected against the consequences of making life changing decisions before they are adults.”
Again, you use one case as some kind of validation to deny an entire group theur right to make their own choices. When did you ever ascribe the mistakes of one cis woman onto ALL cis women Janio? Of course you haven’t. That would be riduculous eh?
For some who says you’re not against trans people, you’re ceratinly doing your damndest to paint them in a dark light.
It’s like, “I’m not anti Maori, but you know, theres heaps of them in prison and……..”
Hillary, yours is a voice of reason. You cover critical points and in doing so, expose the weak claims of the zealots.
Where’s my post praising Hillary’s comments? A voice of reason, she covers the ground of the conversations on this blog, shows up the zealots. Is this too much for you Martyn? You who thinks that the Green MPs know better than the voters.
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