That well know champion for gay rights and social justice, Mike Hosking, has leapt into the Pride Parade meltdown with a column damning everyone connected.
His position has all the nuance of a Marama Davidson woke lynch mob on twitter.
What’s happening inside the Pride Parade meltdown is a fascinating and vicious fight between different factions that goes to the very front lines of the new culture wars…
Auckland Pride Parade’s hui over police uniform ban turns into ‘a circus’
A physical scuffle broke out at a meeting of the Auckland rainbow community to discuss the ban on uniformed police marching in the city’s 2019 Pride Parade.Before the start of the meeting, Tim Foote, an independent facilitator on behalf of the Pride board, also asked media if they had taken any notes and told them to leave the meeting at Grey Lynn Community Centre on Sunday night, which was attended by about 250 people.
The meeting was described as “emotional” and “a circus” by an attendee.
…the friction is between the wider Rainbow Community, who believe in inclusion, and Trans Activists who believe in exclusion. The bewilderment from the wider Rainbow Community at Pride demanding Police not wear their uniform erupted when they found out the reason was because Trans people might feel ‘triggered’ at seeing Police in uniform.
This culture clash, between older gay rights activists who have championed inclusion and a new binary gender activist class of fourth wave feminist trans activists who see the world in power dynamics that are medically triggering to their mental health is complex and the fight inside Pride looks now to only get more angry…
Kia ora whānau,
As many of you may have heard the Auckland pride board decided to not to let police wear uniforms in the pride parade. Obviously we ideally we would not like police to march at all but this was a good first step and compromise. There has been a lot of backlash though and the people who want cops to march in uniform have been signing people up to be members and are planning on calling for a special general meeting to try and get rid of the current board members. So if you’re LGBT please sign up so that we can push for this decision to not be overturned.
Ngā mihi,
Auckland Branch
The problem is the feral anger of the trans community is very similar to the Green Party in that they are Pure Temple, not broad church. Like the Green Party, Trans Activists demand adherence to a certain doctrine and anyone who doesn’t agree with that doctrine becomes immediately tagged as anti them.
I’ve learnt the hard way.
A couple of months ago TDB published a press release from a feminist group critical of self gender identification. We have a raw feed section of the blog that grabs press releases and publishes them, the bewilderingly angry backlash by Trans activists that the press release was published was unlike anything I’d ever witnessed on the blog and ended with 3 threats aimed at my daughter!
Ironically I noted on Twitter to the feminist whose press release caused threats to my kid about how the debate was so bitter…
… and for merely noting those threats, I was immediately branded transphobic…
…then I had activists from People Against Prisons Aotearoa take private messages I had sent them on the gender balance of their board and take that private correspondence online…
…the point I was making to PAPA was the vast majority of prisoners are male and could they represent that with a board dominated by woman.
Apparently this was transphobic of me.
(Note to any Government agency or NGO contacting PAPA, be warned they might take private correspondence and do the same to you.)
Beyond me noting threats against my kid from ridiculously militant Trans activists (which apparently makes me transphobic) and asking a Prisoner Rights organisation if they are representing the majority of prisoners, what is my actual opinion on transgender people and their rights?
Well I’ve stated it as clearly as I can…
Call me old fashioned folks, but I kinda think the way a human being identifies gender wise is as intrinsic a human right as one’s sexual orientation or one’s race. The whole point of being free individuals in a free society is that you not only have the right to be who you are, but you have the freedom to be who you are.
If we acknowledge that our species is a spectrum within a spectrum, within a spectrum, then the idea that some men would identify as women and some women identify as men and some identify as neither and some identify as both is as uncontroversial as the range of eye and hair colour amongst the human race.
Of course there is a spectrum within gender and those who choose to identify beyond a binary view of it should not only be free to pursue that identity, they should have the same autonomy within society that anyone of us has to pursue that identity.
…believing that gender is a spectrum and that we should respect people how they self-identify and noting the debate is so bitter that I had threats made against my daughter apparently makes me transphobic. The irony here is that the radical feminists who were agreeing with me at the threatening militancy of the Trans activists will be beside themselves with rage that I actually support Trans rights.
I didn’t take the threats seriously because I think any group who have been as oppressed as badly as the trans community has and who have only recently found platform, tend to spend the first couple of decades screaming out their rage at everyone and everything. I believe the journey to finding yourself is an innate and primary one within the human condition and would always accept any persons identity and pronoun they wished to use as a matter of basic dignity and courtesy but I also understand that some women and lesbians might have issues about Trans men sharing women only spaces.
As the wider and older Rainbow Community look to their legacy of inclusion being over run by a new generation of millennial activists who want to exclude, the wider issues of ongoing injustice against Trans people and how to fight for their human rights on social media platforms algorithmically fuelled by subjective outrage olympics remain unanswered.
Either way, this isn’t going to end nicely and there’s a new general meeting of the Pride Parade Board being called for early December by those wishing to dump the Pride Board and those who wish to defend their decision.
And finally, if Trans activists can ask the Police to not wear uniforms because they might be ‘triggered’ by that, can evangelical Christians ask for the entire Pride Parade to be cancelled because it triggers them? Allowing subjective pain to be the adjudicator of public events can lead one to a very repressive place in a very short period of time.
Sweet baby jesus this was a boring read.
Very helpful feedback thank you reverend.
Part of me hates box ticking – feel good about yourself by doing sweet FA – mindless symbolism and that bloody rainbow police car took the cake on that one. I do think however the police of 1940’s NZ no longer exist and are, in a ham fisted way trying to show they’ve moved on.
But this whole Pride thing is imploding, badly. Who honestly can be bothered with the constant outrage?
At least the organisers are honest, they would rather not have the cops there at all and for all concerned, they would better off being well away from it.
This culture clash, between older gay rights activists who have championed inclusion and a new binary gender activist class of fourth wave feminist trans activists who see the world in power dynamics that are medically triggering to their mental health is complex and the fight inside Pride looks now to only get more angry…
Can we get that in English please? I’m honestly completely confused (I guess that was point of that sentence). In all seriousness, who hates what that is triggering who now?
I think the whole thing is a storm in a teacup. Happy to throw out the cup and contents.
Personally, speaking only for myself, I, I find men dressing up in frocks, wigs and makeup as offensive (to me, speaking personally for myself, I ) as women taking on the male role. The Most High God made man and woman…the rest were designed by the misguided. (Gender bending additives to the water and food require close scrutiny by the brave.)
Of course this is my opinion to which like any alphabet group I am entitled to express. Phew!
“Most high god”?!
What happens if people don’t believe in supernatural deities?
And if such a being exists, why did It create trans-people only to see them vilified, denigrated, denied their identity by transphobes?
Personally, I’d prefer to see this debated in terms of inclusion and social justice, rather than reliance on an all-powerful, invisible, supernatural entity on whom you can rest your beliefs to back you up.
Helena clearly stated that this is her personal belief. If you wish to challenge her personal beliefs you are entitled to but unless she is advocating that other people should not be allowed to do something because of her beliefs (which I don’t believe she is) then you may well be wasting your time.
… and that was my personal belief.
Oh dear, Frank. You gotta start doing your NWO homework!!!
Aint you gonna get a fright when presented with the option…either bow to the New World Order’s Baphomet or be beheaded. (RFID chip at this time too) By the way, the abomination which is the Baphomet is half male and half female.
Your second sentence…this is a planet of free will. Make your bed lay in it. Don’t cry. But 180 degree turn is always available.
Last sentence…both the for and against groups have equal say and neither should have the right to cancel the other out.
Question for you Frank…have you ever seen “spontaneous” inclusion and social justice at work? No lying now.
Question for you Helena, have you ever seen the “higher God”?
Now for the non believers of UFO’s, you are wrong and I am right because not only have I seen one up close, 5 others with me also witnessed this.
As for the “higher God” well, I changed jobs because she didn’t pay me enough.
No Bert, I have not seen Yahuah, nor have I seen a UFO. but I believe both are real.
When Lucifer was booted out of Heaven, along with his fallen angel buddies, they took with them their toys. Obsolete UFO’s were traded to the U.S.Government in exchange for underground bases.
They found UFO’s in Antarctica which is why so many high level politicians/religious dignitaries visited. The visit by NZ media and popstars was a coverup diversion just for us.
Your pay-scale is clearly between you and your god.
Stay safe. Keep clear of UFOs ’cause they abduct people you know! Not kidding either.
Bert…for your eyes/ears only
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jc9l4p6JYBQ&feature=em-uploademail
And to you Helena…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJUhlRoBL8M
On second thoughts, Bert, get Scotty to beam you up any time.
Over and out.
I will Helena and you stay away from the white light!
the first basis that people encounter oppression on, is often the sharpest and the one that stays with them for a long time
the Police were brutal towards homosexuals and “Trans” in earlier times, and their culture is still majorly skewed against all non Anglo, non “straight” culture, but multiculturalism and social change regarding sexual orientation/identity and behaviour, has meant they have had to make some adjustments and some of them have
I would not want the cops on a Union march either actually, but sometimes there are points of, if not unity, then confluence of interests
You don’t have to insert yourself into the middle of every clusterfuck whirlwind that doesn’t concern you, silly chipmunk
Brilliant Doc. I’d gonna put those 19 words on my fridge to be read every morning!
One point I would like to make clear is that not all trans-people/activists support the decision to exclude police marching in uniform.
As with any/every other movement, social grouping, demographic, you will find a diversity of opinion.
We need to keep in mind that whether trans or non-trans, people are individuals with a wide range of opinions on this. For any one group to claim the right to speak on behalf of all trans-men and trans-women is unsupportable.
I don’t think this is a good post Martyn and if I were you I’d be seriously thinking about taking it down as it isn’t helpful.
The police were invited to march as police in TShirts but not in police uniform.
This is because the Pride Organising Committee listened to the voices of the community who had experienced police harassment and brutality: our youth, Maori, Transgender, the homeless, working class, those with issues that bring them to the attention of police. They did not feel comfortable with police marching in uniform. But the police, in a rather insensitive response, insisted on marching in uniform.
We are now seeing the power of corporate capitalism, and the state’s military and police establishment, deployed against the Pride Organising Committee.
This is in essence a class conflict, we should be supporting the very reasonable position of the Pride Organising Committee.
That’s quite an assertion, Chris. Which parts of the “community”? Obviously not all, as this has become a contentious issue of debate. Many have pulled out of the Pride March, upset at the decisions being made. So – obviously – there are parts of the community not entirely happy with the outcomes from Pride.
The moment you asked Martyn to take down his article raises questions, Chris, as to what your agenda is. It’s obviously not debater/discussion, because you want it closed down. Martyn has raised valid points for discussion and tried to gain insight from this issue. I may not always agree with him, but I always consider his opinions. These blogposts are meant to make us think and question, not stay in silence.
I think part of the issue is that the people who are objecting to police are members of a younger group, who are still having very negative interactions with the police. It seems to me that if the police force as a whole are still homophobic then why should they be rewarded with the positive vibes. The parade is run by the next generation who do not want the people they see as helping to oppress them being able to say how libel the organization has become. Change to organizations happen when the bullshit is called – painting a rainbow on 3 cars does not mean they have changed. The response by police to Roastbusters and the story about the rape they decided not to prosecute shows their attitude to women hasn’t changed so why would their attitude to other marginal communities.
BTW Martyn I am sorry your boundaries of private messages were not respected, and your daughter was threatened that is not acceptable behaviour ever!
Thank you for your kind offer to have me remove my thoughts, but until the Police State takes over and throws me in prison for thought crimes, I think i’ll keep it up thanks, you know – liberal democracy, free speech and all that.
I’m aware the Police were asked to not march in Uniform, but that was a request that was always going to be rejected in a pride parade because you are asking them to be ashamed of the uniform they wear. Hardly prideful.
I think your assertion that this was because the Pride Parade Committee listened to the voices of ” our youth, Maori, Transgender, the homeless, working class, those with issues that bring them to the attention of police” is a tad disingenuous. This was a Trans Rights Activist group who are desperate to conflate issues to try and look like there is wider support for banning the cops than there actually is. If that is true Chris, how did the police get invited in the first place? No one is suggesting that the Police don’t have a terrible history of abusing the rainbow community, that’s why their inclusion was so important and let’s remember, those police who are marching are Rainbow Community themselves, you are asking them to hide who they are so that a new wave of Trans Activists can feel empowered because they are ‘triggered’ by the the uniform.
As for this “We are now seeing the power of corporate capitalism, and the state’s military and police establishment, deployed against the Pride Organising Committee.” – Really, that’s what we are seeing? Not a radical splinter group who have managed to push their issues to the front of the Parade and deny Gay and Lesbian and Bi Police from marching? What’s more likely Chris – the NZ Military Industrial Complex attacking the Pride Parade or a radical splinter group trying to push their own agenda?
“This is in essence a class conflict, we should be supporting the very reasonable position of the Pride Organising Committee.” – really? It looks like a power struggle between Pure Temple and Broad Church interests – BTW, if I’m so out of step here on this, why do you think the broader Rainbow Community are up in arms about this and are now organising to have the Pride Board kicked out in the new meeting planned for December 6th?
Are you suggesting all those other Gay, Lesbian and Bi community members are also part of the Pink Police State?
Frank,
Here’s the detail on the Pride Committee’s quite extensive community consultation. I congratulate them for listening to the voices of the most marginalised.
https://aucklandpride.org.nz/media-centre/police-and-auckland-pride-moving-forward-together/
I think Martyn’s title of “Trans Activists vs Rainbow Community” is very inaccurate. The concern here is much wider than only trans activists and I am wary of marginalising their views and experiences and trying to paint them as somehow against the rainbow community. I do not think that is helpful at all in the current context.
I don’t think it is helpful to drag Martyn’s wider points about transgenderism, which I have some sympathy with, into what is already a very confused and divisive discussion about police participation in the Pride parade in uniform. Better to have 2 separate posts IMHO.
Martyn,
Thank you for your reply.
Noone is asking the police to be ashamed of their uniform. There are lots of us who work for organisations which wear some kind of uniform who are sensitive to the reality that there are situations in which our uniform is unhelpful. Catholic clergy would be one example, given the sexual abuse crimes by a small number of priests.
The police were invited in the first place because it was thought that their presence would be helpful. In one sense it is. But the police, like the corporate sponsors, also have their own PR interests at play. How far is it helpful for the rainbow movement to go in accommodating their business interests when it causes so much pain and suffering for some of most marginalised members ?
Noone is asking the police to hide who they are. They are very welcome to march as a group with a suitable Pride TShirt saying POLICE. Insisting that they MUST wear their uniforms when they have been asked not to seems rather intransigent to me. Noone else does.
Here are multiple precedents where overseas police departments have been sensitive enough not to march in uniform:
https://www.teenvogue.com/story/why-police-arent-welcome-at-pride
I think a lot of people are upset because they don’t know the issues raised and the community consultation the Pride Committee engaged in and listened to, they do not appreciate that the police were not “banned” but were allowed to march together as police, just not in uniform, and they liked the police presence as a helpful sign of community acceptance and support (which it is).
The reaction of some of the corporate sponsors in withdrawing funding, and the withdrawal of the police and military speaks for itself. I think we should think very carefully before accepting their interests and views uncritically.
Why does that statement remind me of the US Army policy of “don’t ask, don’t tell”?!
That reminds me of the anti-gay sentiments of the 1986 Homosexual Law Reform Bill debate: “be gay, just don’t be gay to our face”.
Hiding who they are would be the very antithesis of what PRIDE should be about. Being proud should not mean refusal to accept who people are.
The irony of this seems to have escaped everyone.
Frank,
The police marching as a contingent with POLICE all over their rainbow TShirts would certainly not be hiding who they are. The very opposite, in fact.
It would be demonstrating that the police are humble enough to hear and respond to the genuine concerns of a very vulnerable and marginalised section of the community.
That is the essence of community policing.
The very opposite of “we are going to barge in with our uniforms on whether that is helpful or not”.
I support the many efforts of the NZ police to develop more sensitive community policing, respecting ethnic, religious, and sexual diversity in the community, and working closely with the community. It is that community policing ethos the police need to bring into play here.
There is an obvious compromise here which can satisfy all parties.
Chris;
Expecting a sector of the community to hide an aspect of their lives (in this case, their jobs) by demanding they forego wearing their uniforms is not inclusion. In fact it is the antithesis.
You suggest that expecting police to wear a t-shirt would be “an obvious compromise here which can satisfy all parties” begs the obvious question:
Who else in the Pride parade will be asked to forego their uniforms and offered t-shirts instead?
Anyone?
No?
In this case I suggest we call it out for what it is: discrimination.
Imagine if police officers had been instructed by the Head Office hierarchy that they were banned from wearing their uniforms? What do you think would’ve been the reaction from many in the LGBTQI community? From wider society?
That’s right, the reaction would’ve been one of incredulity and anger.
There is no pride to be had in what is happening here. I suggest you (and others) are defending the indefensible.
With all due respect Frank, I think you are missing the point here.
The police are being asked not to parade in uniform, not because they are police, but because police are harassing, intimidating, abusing, and brutalizing some of the most vulnerable members of the gay community.
One of my friends in this community was recently stopped by police who put his hand down her trousers and into her underwear. That is disgusting ! Its wrong. It needs to stop and we need to take action to put an end to this kind of abuse.
If we just stand idly by and do nothing, despite all the evidence of police brutality, which the data suggests is actually increasing, then we are in fact complicit in the crimes of the police.
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2018/09/revealed-the-significant-increase-in-police-misconduct-allegations-in-2018.html
The time has come to stand up and say: NO MORE POLICE HARASSMENT.
I congratulate the Auckland Price Committee for having the courage to do that. I stand with them.
They are doing what Jesus always did – stand with the marginalised, the vulnerable, and the oppressed. Yes that will sometimes make one unpopular – it got him crucified.
The victims of police violence standing up and saying no to police present in uniform is completely different to the police hierarchy banning police from attending. The Pride Committee have not banned the police. The police hierarchy took the decision to ban the police (actually one member of the police seems to have taken it upon herself to decide this, without any apparant consultation with gay police.).
You ask “Who else in the Pride parade will be asked to forego their uniforms and offered t-shirts instead?”
The fact is that no other group in the Parade is abusing and harassing members of our community the way the police are.
Plenty of others who wear uniform, myself included, would be quite happy to march without uniform if we were asked to do so. That is the respectful and decent thing to do.
Like Chris Trotter, Bomber is a legend of the left who has been set upon by the mindless and gibbering hordes.
Ironically, what this whole thing proves is that society is starting to grow up re: LGB issues (i hesitate to include T, because i think it’s a horribly tacked on adjunct that has really muddied the waters – proved in this case).
LGB’s have achieved a state where there is acceptance and respect in society, and there is diversity within the LGB community such that most don’t feel the need to invoke some counter culture or anarchist/revolutionary spirit. They just want to get on with life and celebrate that progress in style on the odd occasion.
You can now be a gay soldier or cop, you can be a gay builder or interior designer. You can be gay and vote Nat, Act, NZ First, Mana, or whoever. That’s what should be celebrated.
PAPA is nothing to do with Gay Pride, and fringe crypto-anarchist groups shouldn’t have an outsized voice in the conversation.
I have Gay, Transgender and ‘Non-Gender Conforming’ mates. All of them have been discriminated against at some point .. but they have ‘sucked it up’ and moved on. I honestly think people would be scared to mess with them these days!
There’s a perception that the blue collar, ‘man’s man’ type-of-guy is the one discriminating against LGBTQ people – often they’re the ones cheating on their straight partners with them or selling them drugs [LGBTQ people have high drug usage rates – FACT!].
All my transgender/non-gender conforming mates have no problem discussing issues of gender/sexuality, BUT why bother, they have a life to live and things to do!
ALL my LGBTQ mates agree there are only two genders, though the number of sexualities is another story, hence the terms ‘trans-woman’ and ‘trans-man’. Many trans people are even happy to entertain the idea of ‘gender dysphoria’ – though happy the way they are.
‘Trans Activists’ and ‘Social Justice Warriors’ probably haven’t got the tools/life-skill necessary or learnt NOT TO BE EASILY OFFENDED. Instead of living a life embracing free speech and being strong in themselves, they demand ‘freedom from free speech’ and anything they deem offensive. This is a far cry from equal rights!
We all know the saying, “Fake it till you make it” – it works in reverse too. People that play the victim and embrace victimhood, they simply become more of a victim.
The concept of being ‘triggered’ it’s pathetic – who are these people, Manchurian candidates!? I refused to waste my time writing the usual banal response.
At the Police 111 call centre they’ll be re-writing their pro-forma response sheets to ensure offence isn’t caused anywhere down the line, no-one is fearful and everyone has the opportunity to indicate how they best feel ‘safe.’
It’ll all be a bit like KFC years ago: “Corn of cob with that, sir?”
” Do you want police attending to be in uniform, ma’am?”
” Do you prefer the officer to be wearing trousers or skirt?”
…
I’m confused – not with my gender or sexuality, but I don’t understand if the marching cops are thete for crowd control in unifor – or are marching as private indidividuals -gay citizens who just happen to be cops? If the latter, then this would surely be a no uniform deal. Pehaps if y’all marched naked then all dilemmas would be stripped right away, but then there would be a public nudity issue – aw shucks, what the hell.
In case anyone might think that concern about a mass police presence in uniform is exaggerated, this is from the pastoral letter against racism just released by the U.S. Catholic Bishops :
http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/racism/upload/open-wide-our-hearts.pdf
That’s the issue here. And that’s why the police have been asked not to parade in uniform at Auckland Pride.
Really, Chris?! You’re quoting Catholic priests as moral arbiters? And on LGBTQI issues?!?! I’m guessing the supreme irony in your post escapes you?
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