The Long-Term Green Advantage of Uncommon Sense

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THE MAINSTREAM NEWS media’s constant and effusive praise for Green co-leader, James Shaw, draws into sharp focus the party’s fundamental contradiction. That the supra-political character of the present planetary crisis must doom to failure any attempt to present the Greens as just-another-political-party. Undaunted, Shaw exploits with considerable skill the urgent need of the status-quo’s defenders’ to keep “common-sense solutions” in play. Were in not so tragic, this acquiescence to the short-termism that defines both the intractability of climate change, and of modern politics, would be hugely and comically ironic.

If Shaw’s acquiescence could be offset by a co-leader determined to bear witness to the long-term challenges of responding to anthropogenic global warming, then the damage to the Green cause might be mitigated. Unfortunately, Marama Davidson seems to be as much a prisoner of the short-term as Shaw. In the passing circus parade that is day-to-day politics she has opted for the role of clown.

In fairness, playing the whole Green thing for laughs must be tempting when the challenges are so very, very great. How, for example, do you inform humanity that their sheer numbers preclude any sort of “soft landing” for the climate change crisis?

Saving the planet and feeding all its people, long ago ceased to be a practical proposition. The amount of cultivatable land will shrink – along with the quantity of water necessary to ensure adequate harvests. As the mean global temperature increase passes 2oC, millions of human-beings will begin to starve. What is the correct moral response to famine, disease and conflict on an unprecedented scale? When the boatloads of desperate climate-change refugees start appearing off New Zealand’s coast, what should a Green New Zealand government do?

This is a long way from green technological fixes and rehabilitating four-letter words.

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So, too, is deciding what to do when the big container ships and the oil-tankers stop venturing this far south. When the sheer number of super-hurricanes renders voyages too far out into the Atlantic, Indian and Pacific Oceans uninsurable. How will a Green government keep the chronically-ill provided with their life-saving pharmaceuticals; and crucial machinery supplied with spare parts; when the flow of these vital imports ceases? How will it keep the lights on and the electric cars powered-up when the snow refuses to fall and the hydro lakes are empty?

Who in today’s Green caucus has the courage to tell New Zealanders that teaching young people the skills required to keep the post-industrial communities of the future functioning is now a matter of urgency. Because in 100 years’ time Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch and Dunedin will be only a fraction of their present size and most of the population will be living in the countryside – where the food is. Which of today’s Greens are working with Maori to preserve the indigenous medical and pharmacological knowledge built-up over the 600 years of non-European occupation of Aotearoa?

Who will dare to tell today’s captains of industry that in 50 years the Internet will be but a memory? That the genocidal global resource wars will kick off with the destruction of the undersea communication cables. That the revolutions, civil and religious wars that roll across the sweltering continents will leave the control hubs for satellite communication unmanned for a generation. That the rocket launching pads will become nesting places for such birds as still fly through Earth’s fetid air.

These are the challenges which Green parties should be preparing us for. The challenges arising out of the fundamental transformations anticipated and demanded in the latest IPCC report. Deluding voters into thinking that somehow the scientists will come up with a way of saving us all: a way which allows capitalism, consumerism and narcissistic individualism to continue unchecked and unmodified; is not something with which any responsible Green should be associated.

Green leadership should be about thinking the unthinkable and working through the changes required to live in the world which humanity’s unthinking folly is steadily bringing into being. It may even be about anticipating that world by encouraging the formation of communities capable of guiding the survivors of humankind’s addiction to fossil-fuels towards a very different way of living on – and with – the planet.

Like the medieval monasteries which kept literature, art and music alive when all around them the vestiges of civilised order were disintegrating, these Green communities may serve as bridges between the devastating collapse of our fossil-fuelled civilisation and the new, much smaller, more self-sufficient and ecologically humble human societies of the future.

Those who preach this Green gospel must anticipate scorn and ridicule from the majority of today’s voters. For a crucial minority, however, this Green version of the future will resonate loudly. And as, one after another, the predictions of the scientists come true, that minority will grow. Until the day eventually dawns when the Greens’ long-prepared and uncompromising policies strike the overwhelming majority of New Zealanders as the only “common-sense-solutions” on offer.

71 COMMENTS

    • I think it might be the very wealthy and their protectors that come here, as the only habitable land left on the planet. Those of them with some fore site have already established they fortresses. Many more will come, welcomed by our neoliberal globalist rulers. When it gets overcrowded it will not be the New Zealanders who live here now that will survive.
      D J S

      • Old Erik Prince the owner of private security firm Balckwater is trying to take over the Afghan 39 billion dollar contract from the Pentagon. I’m not kidding. Princess reckons he can do the job of 10,000 marines, all the bells and whistles of the Navy and Air Force with only 2500 mercenaries and he reckons he can subcontract the Afghan airforce to do flight ops. Now ain’t that some Rambo shit.

        Just imagine a lesser billionaire trying to pull this shit. It’s so idiotic at this level, scaling down to say a bunkers of the rich and famous makes even less sense.

      • FFS IT IS OVERCROWDED NOW, you deluded person. New Zealand is already over populated, it is having a population and they have a lifestyle that is totally UNSUSTAINABLE. Wake up man.

      • And how many of them do you actually believe will survive more than a week on tussock salad in their preferred South Island High country retreats ?

    • Rather bleak today Chris.
      A good 25 years too late by my reckoning
      As a lifetime ‘green’ I have never supported the ‘Greens’.

      Their only consistency has been their complete lack of Political nous and completely unwarranted sense of moral superiority.

      Not once have heard/seen them , Greenpeace or any other green group condemn the grotesque and growing major contribution to Greenhouse gas levels by Air travel.

      The wanton waste of oil for non-productive purposes must stop. We don’t need to stop exploring for and producing hydrocarbons because even in the bleak but feasible scenarios you describes trade and the productive economy can and will continue, albeit in a vastly different form.
      One that finally dispatches the toxicly flawed 17th century philosophy that underlies neo-liberalism and ‘Free’ trade.

  1. Thanks Chris this is certainly one very likely projection of what the future may hold and one with ideas I haven’t seen posited before, not even in science fiction. Humanity is hurtling towards certain destruction to life as we know it, climate change is certain, resources are finite….although sitting here, looking outside onto the beautiful day its hard to grasp it. This is where Netflix comes in, why don’t you with your great descriptive and literary skills pen a series based on these ideas and how societies may function in a future world where all the things you say here are likely to happen. One way to reach many people anc make them think. I hope you do it. Sea level rise, where to base these communities will be a challenge if you take a look at the maps that show the sea swallowing the land in vsrying degrees of sea level rise. Thinking about the monks you mention here and how they carefully preserved books and culture, so few and so isolated, makes you wonder what was lost.

    • “…..looking outside onto the beautiful day it’s hard to grasp it”

      Yep, Lone Comet, considering Chris is saying the apocalypse is just around the corner…it seems as if the 4 horsemen haven’t even saddled up yet.

      • Trouble is NZers live in a very remote place, that has not quite yet been hit by the serious challenges humanity and economies overseas are facing now, so there is this time delay, it has existed for decades.

        Hence Kiwis never quite register what goes on and how serious it is, until the shit hits the fan first overseas.

        This country is a country bumpkin backstop kind of place when looking at the global scenario, you do not understand that the shit has already hit the fan in many places, and in time delayed fashion, this will hit us also, very soon. So keep on watching that movie unfolding, perhaps.

        • Saddled up I mean…the horsemen. And that’s true what you say about NZ, we live in a bit of a green bubble its hard to imagine the environmental wasteland that is much of the world it use to hit me like a freight train when I use to come back for breaks from Asia where even isolated beaches had litter, endless suburbs…NZ seemed like a precious green gem far far away. This is quite true of course, even with poor water in lakes and rivers, and some beaches.

  2. Is this a thoughtfully written-out suicide note for the Green Party as a politically viable party?

    Or is it a strong suggestion that Green party members immediately plan and then form communes/colonies on easily defended terrain (heavily armed as well) to ensure their survival and the preservation of learning and knowledge?

    I mean, the roaming packs of wild dogs alone will preclude taking the horse and cart to the next fortified village/stronghold, let alone the bands of brigands looking to steal the last of the methanol for their battle-wagons, a-la Mad Max.

  3. It’s all very well for people to keep on placing expectations on the Greens and complaining about their ineffectualness but let’s not forget that they are a very small party. How about expecting National, Labour and the millions who vote for them to actually carry some of the load

  4. Well I do declare, miracle of miracles; it looks like Herr Trotter, renowned scribe & raconteur, has finally been touched by the ‘spirit of our times’ & it’s a glorious sight to behold.

    For many a long year this gnarly old voice in the wilderness prophet has been grappling with the notion that we here in ‘Noah’s Waka’ have a unique roll to play, not just in world history, but in the survival of our species.

    This has led me to express my thoughts & dreams on what I see as our nations destiny over the course of my various lives in many varied, sometimes wondrous & occasionally madly outrageous ways.

    Let’s begin with my ‘Kingdom of Ayvangard’ vision; A design concept for a new world generating work of art venue & a trail blazing autonomous confederacy of cooperatively organised villages situated with a food forest environment; which when realised will become an experimental & inspirational model for not only a future Greater Zealandian confederacy, but also a more localised, post-globalisation world.

    Of course let’s not forget my more recent ‘punking up politics’ approach to garner votes for my radical ‘Localisation Party’ of one. A fun but pretty pointless undertaking if ever there was one.

    Yes it is true; a radical green influenced, nationalistic & somewhat dictatorial ‘Fortress NZ’ war footing urgency, & a steely super normal strength of will is required if we here in Godzone are to even reach maturity & realise our true destiny, let alone survive the conflagration that the immanent downfall of the world as we know it will throw at us.

    Yes, great to see C.T. finally leaving the 20th century behind in the nuclear dust where it belongs & finally taking the Zeitgeist for a spin.

  5. Bugger me!

    I thought it would be some time yet before somebody actually put it in print….well done.

  6. How will a Green government keep the chronically-ill provided with their life-saving pharmaceuticals; and crucial machinery supplied with spare parts; when the flow of these vital imports ceases?

    You do realise that we can produce all we need here right? It’s only our delusional financial system that makes it look like we can’t.

    How will it keep the lights on and the electric cars powered-up when the snow refuses to fall and the hydro lakes are empty?

    I take it you weren’t there when Shaw outlined the Green policy of developing our silicon and other resources to produce solar panels here?

    Who in today’s Green caucus has the courage to tell New Zealanders that teaching young people the skills required to keep the post-industrial communities of the future functioning is now a matter of urgency.

    No it’s not. We actually do have enough knowledge in NZ to develop our own sustainable industry that only utilises our own resources.

    Importing and exporting will be bygones because both are unsustainable.

    Who will dare to tell today’s captains of industry that in 50 years the Internet will be but a memory?

    Except it won’t be. Not in NZ as we have the resources to maintain it as well as computers.

    When the boatloads of desperate climate-change refugees start appearing off New Zealand’s coast, what should a Green New Zealand government do?

    Hopefully – sink them.

    • Playing the same old same old eh my boy. Never learn a trick did you. Actually did you ever learn anything beyond flipping burgers.

      I mean come on, sink em? What kind of policy is that.

      • Trolling again eh, or should that be trawling for a little recognition? Some of us just can’t help ourselves, looking somewhat obsessive compulsive.

        • Oh really johny. Why don’t you snap out of it. Look at the comment you’re defending.

          Johny, are you honestly saying people who comment have such suffisticated internal monologue. Look at what Draco is saying. He’s saying we don’t have to trade any more and we don’t need money.

          Creating frozen blocks of industries and secrets with out a constant stream of money is just impossible. Even if we didn’t have money we would still use qualifications/degrees as a form of currency.

          With money and a salary no one would make anything, and if they did that’s called slavery. Just watch out for those people who misunderstand property rights.

      • Sink em seems harsh?

        What other options will exist.

        You are talking about survival.

        Land ownership will be a crucial factor and private land ownership has well passed its use by date as it that thinking.

        Henry George was at least a century ahead of present practice.

  7. At last someone has the guts to say what is blatantly obvious – that the world on its present trajectory cannot be saved unless we are prepared to live life styles far removed from civilisation as it now is.
    What it did not say was that our survival can be assured if we reduce population by about a third. Why it’s not said is pretty obvious – someone will have to explain how to carry out that simple solution. Who will do it?
    All other things being equal a third less population must mean a third less emissions, which will easily meet the Paris Agreements. I get that number from the accepted fact that if all the nations of the world had the same carbon foot print as New Zealand, to satisfy that demand on resources would require 1.6 Planet Earths
    It is possible to reorganise our lifestyles – I think that I am fairly close to living my life that way, but giving the short time span and NZ’s indifference, I dont think this will happen in this nation.
    The word ‘population’ does not get one mention in the article or the responses so far. The last time I suggested a solution I was accused of being a mass murderer so its someone else’s turn.

    • If you are advocating killing a third of humanity and did it then yes, you would be a mass murderer. However you have a point about too many humans for the planet but climate change will sort that son.

    • Dennis – well said.

      Climate is but one of many changes now well underway.

      We cannot continue our present civilisation as too many are using too much.

      China is the only state to voluntarily impose rules that will see a reduction in their population in a medium term. When I say voluntarily well they have acted ahead of a crisis ahead that is all too plain to see.

      Capitalist states do not and will not take any effective action unless forced to do so. Business wants more consumers. A neurotic mindset.

      Start the forcing.

  8. Too many comments made for the Daily Blog do consider a ‘political party’ (e.g. the Greens) or the ‘representational parliamentary’ (as we know it) as a final, somehow ever-lasting stage of political history.

    Climate change – and what it will create and influence – will be one of the main driving forces for new political milieus, presently not sufficiently anticipated in political visions and strategy development.

    The Green Parties will just be a one actor in this process, albeit they can be an important one. Their main strategic role is to open up opportunities provided through the present governing systems guiding knowledge generation, wisdom and prudence, science and evidence, non-violent organizational structures, human / gender equity, and equality of creation in general.

    Incubator of autonomous networks, probably.

    If they can do this, they have fulfilled their historical role par excellence.

    Putting too much of the blame on the NZ Green Party may miss the point. Helpful could be an analysis why ‘green’ extra-parliamentary positions in New Zealand are weak, having a low tangible impact on government systems, parties and opinions in the wider public.

    A “true pilot must of necessity pay attention to the seasons, the heavens, the stars, the winds, and everything proper to the craft if he is really to rule a ship” (Plato, The Republic, 6.488d).

    • Feast on this comrade; https://www.thebigidea.nz/profile/ayvangard

      Here ~ now ~ today ~ someones gotta do the dreaming & light up the path. It will take the stout of heart to translate such dreams into reality, but where are our pioneering souls today? Tapping away on their keyboards within the safety of their convenient little comfort zones. Only personal sacrifice, exemplary leadership & radical action in the real world will make a jot of difference.

      Dreaming big about ‘Noah’s Waka’ ~ the autonomous ‘Kingdom of Ayvangard’ & the Greater Zealandian Confederation.

      Plato on my friend.

  9. Short-termism but you’re no longer talking about the budget responsibility rules, Chris? This is all about the short-term. Not least the last 10,000 years. All Good Fun.

  10. There is no way science or technology can save us.

    The position is worse than what the honeyed words above can describe.

    If we had 2 billion humans and tried to live as we did prior to 1800 without the Non Renewable Natural Resources they had then because we have consumed them since, the numbers would continue to shrink.

    More energy harvested means more resources used bringing a short term crash closer.

    Earth houses and thatched roofs if we grow the wood and learn the skills and had much fewer people.

    The greens have little option . If they pushed for the best changes possible then very few would vote for them and change would be slower.

    Transport – walk or animal power on land and paddle or sail at sea.

    Locally grown food supply.

    Living in small settlements not cities.

    Cooperative small scale organisation.

    No bankers.

      • Things you own that don’t get used much have guilt associated with them. Admitting that buying it was a mistake is the first step to being free of that guilt.

        For example rent seeking in a centralized system go up over time. That means that as we watch a lot of these assets and share prices progress, you’ll see more embezzlement, more meaningless positions, more taxes on transactions as people inject themselves into rent-seeking positions.

        So much evil happens in the world because someone in a centralized entity has too much pride and can’t admit that they were wrong.

        This is what years of being a government bureaucrat will do to you:

        1. You make pedantic arguments expecting to win
        2. You threaten people thinking it’ll be effective
        3. You can’t follow basic arguments

        Heh. Think I’m enjoying this exchange a little to much.

        • You are part of the problem, this is not about guilt, it is about the damned reality, mate, wake up, and live according to what nature allows and needs.

          Take action, do not defend the corrupt and BS society and system we have, you live in deluded territory.

          • Iv got a lot of friends and family in that society you call BS. I’m like half Māori, half Brit so I was fucked straightaway. See my problem? I just love them to much.

            Iv even got family members who are former politicians and every one knows what I think about them. One of my nieces told me she loved her step dad (no names) so for the sack of her mental health I had to bite my tongue.

            Just don’t ever expect me to put your feelz before experience.

  11. ‘Earth’s carbon dioxide levels are likely the highest they’ve been in 15 million years

    ….The critical difference today, however, is that carbon emissions are expected to continue rising. With the unprecedented burning of fossil fuels, carbon accumulations will simply keep going up.’

    https://mashable.com/article/climate-change-carbon-pollution-15-million-years/?fbclid=IwAR0d7SSYNTNc_UELiRTqcAGMqUX6Kx2V4P2yAND9v3l8Owwkida8_O7Rigo#CU8qscTjHiq5

      • It used to worry me that ‘nobody’ was listening because it seemed there was a window of opportunity to change the disastrous course society was on. And it seemed there was a window of opportunity to prepare for what was on the horizon.

        About seven years ago I had direct dealings with Andrew Little and saw how he responded to reality: ignore it; pretend the system has a future and would carry on indefinitely largely unchanged.

        That response matched the response of every MP, every member of previous governments, every mayor etc. (and including most Green Party members and MPs) I had dealings with over two decades.

        It is now clear that the windows of opportunities have closed and that, as a society, we are no nearer to having sensible discussions about the reality of resource depletion and pollution than we were when I commenced serious activism over 20 years ago.

        What it amounts to is this: they keep shooting the messenger, whoever it is because the message does not conform to the requirements of the financial-economic-political system. .

        At my age it no longer matters too much to me directly. However, the complete failure of the system to respond appropriately to irrefutable facts that have been known for decades will impact disastrously on my progeny….and quite soon, I believe.

  12. I wouldn’t hold your breath waiting for this “climate crisis” Chris. Whilst there are some interesting aspects of climate science, the predictions so far have been turned out to be a gross exaggeration. The problem with climate scientists is that most are ‘eco-activists’ and are running with a political agenda often with the best of intentions but still inherently biased. The polar bears are doing just fine and the Earth is greening thanks to the increased CO2 in the atmosphere.

    So when this catastrophe fails to eventuate, where will the Greens turn?
    My prediction is that they’ll quickly find another bugaboo to dangle in front of an easily stampeded electorate. Just like they did when their last scare story failed – Peak Oil.

    In my life I’ve witnesses a series of Chicken Little Malthusian scare stories starting with the Club of Rome findings in the’60’s that predicted (using a computer model) that by 2000 the human population would have wiped itself off the surface of earth due to food and water shortages. All wrong.

    In fact today we have never been healthier in all of human history. Global inequality is falling thanks to trade and we have surplus food.

    • Yes , Andrew… the film 2001 Space Odessy was based on such apocalyptic doom and gloom money making scams… as was the cold war for the munitions factory’s to the greater benefit of capitalism… and generally every other major war – including Veitnam.

      Basically , we are being fed by a global mass media that spins a line and keeps us in the dark and fed on sh*t like mushie’s. And they’ve been doing it for a very , very long time. They did it when they adopted the ‘who controls the center of the world controls the world ‘ doctrine… ironically covered in a brilliant article by none other than Chris Trotter himself.

      They did it innumerable times when demonizing enemy’s, – then all is suddenly forgiven and the enemy was actually a jolly good fellow when they lost and the goodies won and found there were profits to be made in investing in the conquered’s industry’s. They did it in ancient times as well , – with notions of appeasing the ‘gods’ with human sacrifices using priesthoods to dominate the masses through fear and Emperor godhead’s delivering ‘enlightenment’ and ‘culture’ to the barbarian ‘hordes’ using brute force and lions eating people in Colosseum’s for entertainment…

      Lies, lies , lies.

      The fact that now we have instant mass communication exacerbates this process .

      A simple example of how scientist’s frequently either get it wrong or are paid to produce a slanted ‘report ‘ ( or both ) is the old 1970’s butter versus margarine battle. Remember back in the 1970’s when all of a sudden butter was the great evil coronary heart risk, … and with the findings of the ‘miracle’ that is margarine conveniently coming out at a time when margarine was coming onto the market in mass quantity?

      Now its been found that butter is NOT the big risk they said it was and that margarine IS. Margarine plays havoc with the digestive tract , clogs artery’s and takes ages to work itself out of the body. So much for marketing science.

      Lies, lies, lies.

      Anyone smell a great big fat dead stinking rat here?

      Because if you don’t you have not been paying attention or have not lived long enough to know what I’m talking about.

      And I strongly suspect that when Al Gore started pushing ‘global warming ‘ (now they call it climate change because their predictions didn’t come to pass ) with dire apocalyptic consequences that he and his rich corporate mates stood to make TRILLIONS of dollars out of ,- not just mere billions, – by having a global carbon tax (which , incidentally had its origins with the Bilderberg society , no less) – he had no particular concerns for a few Arctic penguins or polar bears and far more concern for his bank account and political agenda…

      Lies, lies , lies.

      Anyone caught a whiff of that big , fat , stinking dead rat so far here?

      So, … back to those ‘ slanted scientific reports’ …

      Interesting that the SAME COMPANY CORPORATE’S who were pushing this global carbon tax on the West were planning to relocate their operations to third world/developing country’s to take advantage of cheap labour and the fact that those country’s were exempt from doing ANYTHING about curbing ’emissions’, – or having to pay any carbon taxes…

      My , my ,my ,.. isn’t that big , fat , dead stinking rat smell getting even more rank as we start to look at the other side of the equation ?…

      Yes,.. there is no doubt that various climactic changes are occurring, as they have in the past ( anyone recall the last Ice age or the last great extinctions or mass continental shifts or desertification’s ??? – of course not ! , – you weren’t born then ! ) and some are more serious for some than others. But NOT like the totally inevitable doomsday scenarios that some with agendas are trying to push.

      And no, we wont have to relocate to Mars to start all over again so don’t panic about the price of flight tickets and being left behind because you cant afford them.

      By now you should be smelling not just one dead rat but several dozen big , fat, stinking dead rats,- some under your bed and others in the ceiling and one even under your pillow and the stench should be unbearable. Nothing left but to burn that particular fetid house down and cleanse the political nonsense and put an end to all this foolishness.

      And stop putting fear into this and the next generations hearts based on bogus paid-for scientific reports that are being used to manipulate people into being cowed unthinking sheep while lining the manipulators pockets with gold.

      The same colour as margarine.

      And just as false.

    • There are the outright lies told by politicians and the mainstream media, and there are the outright lies told by people like you.

      ANREW”S lie: ‘the predictions so far have been turned out to be a gross exaggeration

      TRUTH: All official predictions (e.g. UNIPCC) have underestimated the rate of change and have resulted in ever more dire subsequent reports.

      ANDREW’S lie: ‘the polar bears are doing just fine’

      TRUTH: Polar bear populations have been plummeting as their habitat disappears and their food supply vanishes.

      ANDREW’S lie: ‘the Earth is greening thanks to the increased CO2 in the atmosphere’

      TRUTH: Most of the so-called greening of the Earth has been due to mass-scale irrigation and application of artificial fertilisers. Neither has a long-term future. Increased climate extremes, due to elevated CO2, reduce greening.

      ANDREW”S lie: ‘when this catastrophe fails to eventuate’

      TRUTH: Storms in recent years have been the most powerful and damaging in human history. Glaciers are vanishing. Sea level rise is already affecting millions. Wildlife populations are plummeting.

      ANREW”S lie: ‘when their last scare story failed – Peak Oil’

      TRUTH: The peak of conventional oil extraction has passed and the entire economic system is being propped up in the short term by desperation measures -such as fracking, tar sands extraction etc.- which have a much lower energy return than conventional extraction.

      ANDREW’S lie: ‘ Club of Rome findings in the’60’s that predicted (using a computer model) that by 2000 the human population would have wiped itself off the surface of earth’

      TRUTH: ‘They modelled data up to 1970, then developed a range of scenarios out to 2100, depending on whether humanity took serious action on environmental and resource issues. If that didn’t happen, the model predicted “overshoot and collapse” – in the economy, environment and population – before 2070. This was called the “business-as-usual” scenario.’

      https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/02/limits-to-growth-was-right-new-research-shows-were-nearing-collapse

      Andrew, please note the ‘before 2070’, which is not the ‘by 2000’ that you stated. Also note that collapse does not happen as a singular event but occurs over time, and that it is underway.

        • Cherry picked as usual, Andrew. Otherwise you’d’ve noticed the conclusion to the article you linked to:

          But don’t get your hopes up. We don’t know how far into the future the greening trend will continue as the CO₂ concentration ultimately peaks while delayed global warming continues for decades after. Regardless, it is clear that the benefits of a greening Earth fall well short compared to the estimated negative impacts of extreme weather events (such as droughts, heat waves, and floods), sea level rise, and ocean acidification.

          If you’re looking at potential benefits to increased CO2 and warming of the planet – keep looking. This may benefit Mars, which is a colder planet, but climate change on the carefully balanced equilibrium of Earth’s ecological system in a short period of time will be disastrous.

          The CSIRO story you linked to makes that clear.

          • Thanks, Frank.

            Of course cherry-picking deniers like Andrew are immune to fundamental truth and what ever evidence is presented they will not change their stance. Black is white and white is black in their eyes.

            You mentioned ocean acidification, which all those who dispute the link between increased atmospheric CO2 and planetary overheating like to ignore because they have no answers.

            The latest on ocean acidification confirms what I have been writing on the matter since 2001. It is disastrous and will become utterly catastrophic in the not-too-distant future (as will the overheating of the oceans and the repercussions of that).

            ‘Ocean acidification caused by high levels of human-made CO2 is dissolving the seafloor.

            The ocean floor as we know it is dissolving rapidly as a result of human activity.’

            https://www.mcgill.ca/newsroom/channels/news/alterations-seabed-raise-fears-future-291163?fbclid=IwAR2V9gqagVSOvjZwmTB4Wj1jzXdfo6CBOESzpVQw82O3ePbzymKdpkI5DkM

        • Andrew you may have not noticed that Ozzie PM Abbott sacked more that 118 to flight scientists from the CSIRO.

          All material on the CSIRO website surrounding the review of Limits to Growth has been wiped as has much other scientific information paid for by tax payers but with findings that do not suit the business and financial predators.

          CSIRO press releases now seem to be very compliant with the will of business and not objective reporting.

          The CSIRO have consistently found that the Limits To Growth report is right on track. Funny that you did not notice that.

    • What is it about the recent wildfires, massive category 4/5 storms, record temperatures, islands sinking beneath the waves, houses reclaimed by the sea that doesn’t speak to you of a climate in change? Go visit Granity, talk to the locals. Find someone from Keribati and have a chat about if its true their land is disappearing into the ocean.

    • Sam you are misguided about many things.
      Show me one thing in the Limits to Growth report (1972) that was wrong.

      You seem to be re- iterating lies propagated about the report by business.
      Obviously you have not read the report or didn’t understand it.

      Since the report.

      Peak oil happened some time ago

      Peak uranium has passed

      Peak grain per capita was in 1987.

      Fertile land is diminishing.

      Sea food is in steep decline and the oceans are acidifying.

      The number of species is in steep decline.

      In what area is you scientific expertise .

      • I’v read so many reports that I don’t really know where to start, rather taking queues from others as starting points. For the most part I don’t write essays or scripts, just reading salty comments and replying, mostly.

        There’s a lot of really great people being brought together as Fortune 500 companies shrink there work forces creating a lot of high net worth individual brain draining. These people go on to build there own family offices and innovative infrastructure that doesn’t get a lot of coverage by the media cartels.

        In general climate change through out humanities rapid industrialisation leading to over population and societal decay and lose of family culture ect. The interest in climate change is there at the beginning of the week and by Friday its all beer pong and darts that kind of doesn’t deliver that consistency.

        When interest is wained in climate change I think that’s challenging. On the other hand there are things that make me want to yell the socialists are coming because there’s a lot of policing of thought, especially when the media throw around a lot of accusations saying Mike Hosking has a right to question the evidence when he’s clearly compromised and other bad media, I don’t even know what they’re calling it, maybe fake news.

        So I think there’s an interesting balance that has to be stuck because we’ve got all these different types of people and we don’t want any creeps when you’ve got bikini clad teens taking selfies on Lime Scouters and Social Justice Warriors want there safe spaces and so now I need safe spaces and you see this kind of cajole just doesn’t fly.

        For me one of the coolest things about technology is it allows people to be themselves and coming from a libertarian background we used to go down to the nudist beach at lunch time so I never ever wanted any safe spaces. So I just think the spirit of climate change is being muddled with all of these kind of other ideas of protecting people and banning people.

        Censorship isn’t anti climate change. That’s not why I got into this space.

        • Sam my deepest apologies.

          My post was meant to be directed to Andrew.

          I hang my head in shame at the typo error and continue to take heart from your posts.

  13. A long post I wrote has been deleted, I hate this shit, I hate TDB, and I have NO hope in this shit government, the shit humanity we have, the whole planet is crap and humanity is corrupt and destructive:

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/108217026/were-wiping-out-life-on-earth-wwf-warns

    I advise people, take drugs, take more drugs, drug yourselves, it is NOT worth living anymore, this planet is being stuffed by urban spoilt crap consumerist people who have NO link to nature, NO understanding of the complexities, and who only want to carry on as usual. The young generation are totally deluded and ignorant, have NO clue about the natural world, are all city dwellers, happy to see a leopard on screen, they do not need real animals they think.

    I hate humanity, best humanity self destroys, it is the worst enemy to animals, to nature, to the environment and itself.

    Humanity should consider collective suicide to save the screwed up planet and environment, there is NO other solution.

  14. Hehehe… I’m with ANDREW on this one,… NOT ONE OF YOU will have anything to fear from the sorts of things predicted with climate change… yes there will be some changes, bad enough , – but nothing of the extremes that the alarmists, and those with political agendas are trying to say…

    But what YOU WILL have to fear is the inevitable escalation of nuclear warfare in the middle east. This war will start out as a small local war , with three nations using conventional arms attacking Israel, and those nations will lose… but will later on escalate to nuclear when Russia gets involved, – primarily because of Israels oil and gas reserves and strategic importance ( and not out of an inherent support for the Islamic cause) … and NATO forces will face off with them.

    Here’s a snippet of what can only be described as the effects of a nuclear detonation :

    ——————————

    … [ And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the peoples that wage war against Jerusalem: their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths. ] …

    ——————————-

    This is precisely what happened to the victims of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And the term ‘rot’ describes a non biological rot…not one of bacterial origins. Rapid oxidation , through extreme thermal heat.

    So , we already have :

    ——————————

    ” And you will hear of wars and threats of wars, but don’t panic. Yes, these things must take place, but the end won’t follow immediately”…

    “See to it that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. These things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains ”.

    ——————————

    So when does all this start going down ? , well – here’s a clue…

    ——————————

    The Abomination of Desolation

    “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains ” .

    ——————————

    So what does that mean ?,- it means when the leader of the new world order ( who has his headquarters in Jerusalem , – hence Trump moving their embassy to that place recently ) stops the Jews from animal sacrifices and sets up an image of himself in the 3rd temple. And the religious Orthodox Jews see that as an direct affront to their beliefs. He then causes those of the West to pay homage ( worship ) that image.

    Perfectly possible in today’s computer generated models. The reason he does that is because of the cashless society he will introduce. He will demand fealty from the West.

    And before the above happens, – the third Temple of the Jews is to be rebuilt and animal sacrifices resumed. They have located the whereabouts of the 2nd Temple destroyed under Titus in 79 AD and it is in the Old City of David ,… NOT on the Dome of the Rock as many have assumed now and in the past. Where the Dome of the Rock is, – is the location of the old Roman fort of Fort Antonio. And that IS NOT the historical Jebusite city which later became the City of David when King Davids men conquered it.

    For more on this- watch this youtube vid.

    The Temple | Bob Cornuke – YouTube
    Video for the temple bob cornuke you tube▶ 30:50
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKqDx3RDCos

    NOW ,… how does,.. a would-be leader of the One World Govt solve the age old conflicts in the Middle East between the Arabs and the Jews? Quite simply , – by using recent archaeological findings , utilizing mass media to spread the news , – that a ‘peace treaty’ in the Middle East is now feasible because it has been found that the site of the historical 2nd Temple will no longer impinge on the Dome of the Rock and thus both groups will be compatible to a mutually beneficial agreement without political / religious conflict.

    So , in conclusion, we see that yes ,… there will be earthquakes, wars, famines , a global economic crash and weather pattern changes that will increase in severity BUT,…

    The end of this age is to be found in the Middle East , … and NOT belching forth from the rear end of cows , cars and factory chimneys all around the world as some would have us believe. The caveat to all that, however, … is that it still does not let us off the hook in being good stewards of the environment in any shape or form. We are still obliged to look after the ‘garden’ while we are all still here.

    • Whatever it is that you’re adding to your morning cuppa , you’d be well advised to forgo.

      “three nations using conventional arms attacking Israel, and those nations will lose… but will later on escalate to nuclear when Russia gets involved, “

      1 Israels closest ally in the ME is Saudi Arabia.

      2. Israel’s greatest military expertise is Software/hacking and you can bet every shekel in Christondom on the fact that they hold defeat codes on every fancy piece of weaponry the Nato arms peddlers have ‘supplied’ to various kingdoms and republics surrounding them , for the past 20 years.

      3. It’s my regular bedtime happy thought that Russia is ‘involved ‘ on day 1 of your scenario and that involvement is simultaneously nuking Tel Aviv and Riyadh. The peaceful silence that ensued would be the harbinger of a thousand years of peace.

    • Wild Kat
      I hope you manage to remember to pay your tithes to the parasites who use mumbo jumbo to hold fold in fear and reverence.

  15. Well, it hasn’t happened yet. Besides’ it’s like being young yet worrying about whether you might like rest home food but then irony strikes and you get run down by a bus as it heads, fully loaded, to a jenny craig convention.
    All that worrying for nothing.
    Money fetishists have taken over the helm of the boat we float through space on and insist we must forever consume so’s they can produce so’s they can have ever more numbers on a piece of paper.
    We humans are a lot like insects who breed beyond our food source. You’d think we’d be smarter than that. But hey? There’s no money in being smart. If we’d had smart politicians acting for us with the best intentions we’d still have, for example, rail ferrying people to and from larger cities and towns as our agrarian primary industry went from sustainable strength to sustainable strength long having picked the parasitic, and all but worthless, Banks of their backs.
    But oh no. Instead we have a country covered in pine trees to be exported for private wealth creation and vast tracts of land lying fellow as people stack up two deep in starving homelessness.
    The dopy human species deserve what’s coming at them. A vast, unstoppable horror will sweep them up and off into oblivion while us smart ones must go along too through no fault of our own. We’ve become the victims of the weakest, greediest, most perverse links in the chain of human evolution.
    Or!?
    ( “Can’t usually start a sentence with ‘or’ but can finish one. Like? Fish and chips or…” Reese Darby. I love Reese Darby. ) Who else misses that safety video on AirNZ? Instead of the hideous wank they now spout? I’d rather go down screaming in a burning plane spiralling out of control as it’s wings fly off by themselves than listen to some yank brain-farting. )
    Or.
    We’ll be culled. The smart person who must do the terrible job would use viruses spread by drone. The viruses would be genetically designed to self destruct after a period of high activity then once the stink dies down, those who released the drones would return to earth from their Space X stations to take pictures and tut-tut. Our NZ/AO with it’s agreeable weather and high soil fertility would be a good place to start the clean up operations by using armies of Atlas’ , the Boston dynamics robot. It makes Robbie the Robot look like a little pussy kitten. Puts a whole new meaning to the word’s ‘ Destroy! ‘ and ‘Danger! ‘
    Meet Mr Atlas.
    https://youtu.be/LikxFZZO2sk
    Aw…. Cuuuute !
    And the military has assured us they have no plans to use them in military applications. Of course not. Who’d a thunk that?
    https://youtu.be/8vIT2da6N_o
    There’s a better solution.
    The cities needs to spread out more thinly over the land and people must become agrarian orientated. Can you grow enough for yourself and your whanau to cover one years worth of eating? No? Then you’re fucked.

    • Yeah, robots, made from resources or materials including rare earths and toxic substances, costing heaps in water and other stuff that is consumed in their production (like computers). Production polluting the environment and using slave labour in third world countries.

      But hey, they may perform human like tasks, but they do NOT sweat and do NOT smell, great achievement.

      Usable for warfare and more, great, replace living humans with robots, the world will have a totally different future.

      But is it one we can live with, survive in and still remain human?

  16. 1.Water = Food = Civilization /Urbanization

    2. Less Water = Less Food = Less Civilization / Urbanization

    Our future has already been confirmed by the past . The Middle East
    wasn’t always a desert, but it is now.Feeding 300 million people on a daily basis in the USA at 4 degrees . Good Luck .

  17. Chris: to preserve the indigenous medical and pharmacological knowledge built-up over (millenia by many).

    Oh, it’s preserved, all right by some teeny-minded folk.

    Cultural appropriation. Not.

    Mumbo-jumbo and not approved by Authority.

    Must be patented and exploited only by Businesses who can profit from it.

    Chris – I know it’s against the prevailing wind yet – the use of herbs and shamanism and many many other healing modalities are NOT the sole preserve of Maori.

    If it were so – how come their health status figures are so poor? Who is stopping them from accessing their own healers and traditions?
    But ‘whatever you say, say nothing, when you talk about you know what…’

    And acknowledge that there are many of us from many places who also hold to and use those ways, eh? We can share, for the greater good of many.

  18. If you want any traction on the minor matter of the persistence of the human species on this planet, then step one has to be to get rid of the antiquated systems of government we are cursed with.

    Plus the ‘sorts’ that ‘go into politics’. They’re too short term, narrow minded, and timid to do anything.

    Then get rid of every religion that promulgates propagation to keep the planet flooded with tithers and cannon fodder.

    If we can advertise the useless products such as over-sugared carbonated water, and people respond with cash and loyalty for decades, we can also use marketing techniques to start shifting public desires for Better Things – and technologies to lure people into planet-saving.

    You won’t and can’t get there by austerity and go-without. Anyone do know that.

    Make it easy, make it desirable, make it so socially advantageous to do the beneficial things.

    Carrots before sticks. Make it impossible for the critical mass to fail, to rebel, to backslide. We already know how. We already have the technologies and the influencers – and we know they work.

    Just – no politicians, no religious ‘leaders’, and no ‘captains of industry’. Too timid.

  19. James Shaw is practically economically illiterate, believing the same tired old myths the rest of our parliamentarians cling to.

    He’s a slightly more youthful looking old codger, but an old codger nonetheless.

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