Imagine if the rich listers paid the same tax rates as beneficiaries…

1. Quite right, John.

   Depressing, isn’t it? -especially when we know the government has no intention of changing the system, or can’t.

   Business-as-usual, for now -which means the rich get richer and the poor continue to languish.

2. Brilliant Post @ JM.
   Corporate bludgers certainly but also modern slavers. They know how to enslave us to force us into creating [their] wealth for them. Otherwise, hart, the punk, would have to be on quite the hourly rate. Jonky’s head-fuck expert nigel latta knows allllllllll about that.
   And just how does one make the modern slave work ever harder while being psych’d into believing they’re not yet working hard enough?
   Psychology.
   The science of how we work. What makes us tick.
   Metaphor alert.
   If one’s to be a mechanic? One must know how to mechanic. You must know, and understand, how the machine works in order to get the utmost functionality out of the machine. To them? We’re just machines and they’ve come to understand, thus to exploit, our mechanics.
   And here’s the ‘kicker’, as the ‘mericans might say;
   The actual problem doesn’t actually lie with the sociopathic narcissists who make up the elite billionaire clique who suck at us like fleas on P. And let’s not forget the off-shore Fleas who now suck on what were our SOE’s?
   The problem lies within the collective ‘us’.
   All of us.
   We’re, in fact, the problem.
   Because we know what they’re doing and yet we let them get away with it. Or more precisely, we let our elected representatives let them get away with it.

   The ever fabulous Chris Trotter mentions Prof Stanley Milgram here.
   Who are you calling “evil”?
   https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2018/08/14/who-are-you-calling-evil/

   The problem is we allow our politicians to let those monsters at us.
   That’s the problem.
   If we want the above abominations of greed and sociopathy to stop. We must go and visit our politicians. And you can interpret the word ‘visit’ any way you like.
   #1 Organise a larger, rather than smaller, group of people.
   #2 Agree on one thing. And I think we now know what the thing is.
   #3 Go to OUR Parliament Buildings in Wellington.
   #4 Ask nicely.
   #5 No luck with that?
   #6 Then riot like a mad fucker!

   That, is the only way to change the course of sick individuals loving every minute of being the architects of your suffering for their comfort.

   And! And there’s been a film made of it recently. Looks like super fun I tell ya! Ofta!
   ( Sorry. Been binge watching the ‘Fargo’ series.)

   ‘Sorry to Bother You’.
   https://www.theguardian.com/film/2018/aug/19/sorry-to-bother-you-is-this-the-most-anti-capitalist-film-ever

3. Ummm… you are mistaking income with wealth. If we taxed increases in wealth across the board anybody with assets that appreciate would have to pay tax on them. Given this is a paper gain only they would have to fund the tax by selling assets which would then depress prices and lead to a fall in their wealth and therefore they wouldn’t pay any teax at all.

   • What makes me want to wash my hands every time I read what national/act mps, gosman and supporters have to say about wealth/income is that their whole miserable, mealy-mouthed, mean-spirited little lives are geared towards finding the loopholes by which they can get more wealth/income by stealing it from those with a more sharing outlook. It’s a nasty part of greed’s character.
     Like thinking it’s okay to pay wages that people can’t live on without help.
     Like wanting to reduce council responsibilities to people so that only the rich can afford what makes life worth living – libraries, pensioner housing, parks, special events, etc.
     Like wanting to privatise schools, hospitals, transport, to minimise the less well-off Kiwis’ chances of accessing high quality education and health and mobility.
     Greed kills everything that is good in a society.

   • If it was a paper gain only then why is there even a gain?

     After all, as you just said, they didn’t actually produce anything.

     • “If it was a paper gain only then why is there even a gain?”

       A gain, even if it’s only a paper gain, should lead to an increase in an asset’s rental value. Rent is taxable, so the owner’s tax tax liability in respect of that asset should also increase.

   • Gosman – this is unlike you! But you have shown up the usual herd of elephants in the room.

     Wealth on paper is simply one of those indicators of the end of the Monopoly game. A few hold the assets and many are paying ridiculous prices to play/fail. (Countryboy wasn’t wrong about slaves by choice, BTW)

     The monetary system is utterly rigged against the small players who have zero ability to access the opportunities available to the big players – including the Bright Young Things at the pension funds.

     People made this absurd system so people can either quash it or rearrange it. However, for as long as people fantasize about ‘one day I’ll be rich and up there with the greats’ we don’t have too much hope of that.

     If the wealth is ‘only on paper’ – then banks need to lend on reality, not fantasy. Wouldn’t you agree?

   • ‘they would have to fund the tax by selling assets which would then depress prices and lead to a fall in their wealth and therefore they wouldn’t pay any teax at all.’

     Great lets go for it of course they will have to pay taxes because they are super wealthy and they won’t sell everything to pay the tax.

     And I doubt whether Minto is talking about anybody with assets. I suspect he is talking about the filthy rich who simply don’t want to share.

     Remember that half of the wealthiest 150 people don’t even pay the top tax rate, that is disgraceful.

   • Kiwi customers / consumers buy NZ products and services. Normal people don’t really buy into rising asset prices. It’s not really a kiwi past time. But if you had to buy into the kiwi sharmarket, like really had too, I wouldn’t necessarily because there’s better opportunities out there. But if you really had to buy paper assists then probably buying options on a spread call so basically adding 10% + fees onto what ever the price is now and selling when you hit your number. That’s if the action is there, the CEO might be dancing with the media or some other type of hype. Then every ones still making money. Yes changing tax regimes is a big deal but if you know your stuff then you can bring value to New Zealand no matter what.

   • So what would be your solution to the rich paying less lax than the poorest New Zealanders, Gosman?

     You came up with a reason why we shouldn’t pay tax on “paper wealth”. The question is why the poor should pay tax on food.

     How would you address it?

     • The issue is that most Tax is geared at income or consumption because it is easy to collect and the amounts generated from these sources are relatively predictable. Wealth on changes in asset values (i.e. Wealth not income) are not easily collected nor are they predicatable in terms of how much a Government is likely to receive. One year the Government might receive a lot and the next the Government might owe people a refund.

       • The rich expect a basic return on their assets of 10 percent per annum which comes from rent interest and dividends. Its a relatively simple matter to levy a capital tax of say 3% (or even just 1%) on a wealthy persons net worth each year. The tax would even be a spur ( an “incentive”) for them to make better investment decisions.

         Such a tax would collect a huge heap of dollars.

4. What is it with the left and arithmetic?

   John, whilst beneficiaries and minimum wage workers pay a higher percentage tax, because their income is low, they effectively pay bugger-all.

   On top of that they suck the education, health, police and prisons budgets dry because they’re more likely to smoke, drink too much and bash the hell out of each other. As a result they are NET TAKERS from the government.

   The rich on the other hand tend not to be alcoholics, bash each other and smoke less (apart from Cuban cigars of course) and tend to pay for private education and health. So they are NET CONTRIBUTORS. In other words, an asset.

   One more thing about rich people: They’re mobile, and so is their money. If you piss them off with what they see as unreasonable taxes, they will go somewhere else, or their money will. Then you’ll have nothing in the country but ‘net takers’. You know: Venezuela…

   • yeah yeah its all the fault of the poor, or the Russians did it, what ever, desperate attempt to justify your own crimes against humanity are transparent trolling on behalf of morally bankrupt banksters and corrupt politicians, anyone who watches the state media channels for news is just plain foolish.
     Wake up, theres no meaningful change without marching, striking and violence against the oppressors.

   • You know, that could be right (in more ways than one): “they’re more likely to smoke, drink too much”

     And then the question – ‘Who stands to profit by that?’ For every blood supply there is a matching tick.

     ‘they will go somewhere else, or their money will.’ I guess they use the overnight lending system, too? Better rates than I’d ever get when my money ‘leaves the country’, but – there you go. My money goes somewhere else every night of the year. It’s what banks do. A little bit of a lot is still a lot.

     And I invite this thought – of course their money can travel. But land and tangible assets rarely can. Can you really see Ms Moneybags lugging her high country run up the ramp and onto her private jet? I can’t. And it takes time to convert that holding into portables. Might not sell for years.

     The sort of ‘rich’ you are talking about, who would take their money and scuttle, clearly have very little invested or working in this country.

     Those that have made the commitment to stay and build prosperity here are most unlikely to up sticks. The lightweights can naff off as soon as they like.

     Now – you of the ‘right’ – which sort do you want in this country? Or is any old sort of rich enough to put stars in your eyes and brown on your nose?

     • We need a financial transactions tax.

   • Andrew your post is truly a nonsense
     The rich on the other hand tend not to be alcoholics, bash each other PLENTY OF THE RICH BASH THEIR WIVES WHEN THEY CAN’T ‘CONTROL’ THEM AND PLENTY OF THEM ARE ALCOHOLICS both of these and smoke less (apart from Cuban cigars of course) and tend to pay for private education (PRIVILEGED SNOB CLASS EDUCATION WHICH SUCCESSIVE GOVERNMENTS GIVE RIDICULOUS AMOUNTS OF MONEY TOO) and health.

   • Let them piss off with their money and good riddance.

     It’s the working class in the main that have made their money for them.

     • Guys,

       I’m not saying life is fair (it isn’t) and I’m not applying any kind of moral code to this (you guys do enough of that without my assistance).

       I’m just saying what is.

   • “On top of that they suck the education, health, police and prisons budgets dry because they’re more likely to smoke, drink too much and bash the hell out of each other. As a result they are NET TAKERS from the government.”

     Do you have evidence or data on that, Andrew?

     Or are you simply using bigotry to prop up with viewpoint?

     Take a leaf from Gosman who has framed his views from a less emotion-laden comment.

   • And by the way, Andrew, your concern for the financial well-being of the rich is admirable. As long as you know that the rich don’t care about you as much as you do about them.

     Carry on.

     • Hey! I’m trying to be of service here!

       Leftist aren’t good with money or they wouldn’t be socialists. I’m just trying to help.

       Work hard
       Save
       Invest
       Enjoy

       It’s really not that hard.

       Being angry and envious (the basis of socialism when all the bull is stripped away) is just a distraction and it’s dragging you down.

       • I’m a socialist. I will also bet that I ha e earned more, and paid more tax, than you have in your life. However I believe in everyone having a fair chance.
         BTW. The wealthy actually are much more of a drain on societies resources than the he poor. Subsidising their incomes by topping up inadequate wages they pay, with tax payer dollars, for one.

5. The Meaning of Freedom
   A review of Rob Larson’s “Capitalism vs. Freedom”

   In his new book Capitalism vs. Freedom, economist Rob Larson further develops a “left” idea of freedom. But in doing so, he departs from the usual way of framing the “positive-negative liberty” debate. Often, the left says something like “Free market economies may provide ‘negative’ liberty, but they do not provide ‘positive’ liberty.” Larson says that they do neither. In fact, he says, capitalism both restricts people’s ability to act and acts upon them against their will.

   Ironically, the concentration of capital means that one of the great fears about socialism—that decisions about what to sell would be made by small, unelected groups of bureaucrats, rather than determined by competition—is increasingly coming true under capitalism. As Larson writes, “rather than the ‘planned economy’ of socialism that haunts Hayek’s dreams, it is corporate monopoly and oligopoly, and their industrial organizations, that are the main source of today’s central planning.” Instead of the government determining which speech will be heard, and which product features will be offered, the decisions are made by Mark Zuckerberg and “Jack,” who nobody ever voted for.

   Capitalism ensures that we are not free. Even having these parasite pay more tax won’t free us from their grasp.

   We have to make being rich impossible.

   • “We have to make being rich impossible” The Greens should adopt that as their election slogan!

     • <a href="https://www.amazon.com/Why-we-cant-afford-rich-ebook/dp/B00OYTJWBQ/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr="Why we cannot afford the rich:

       Many of the defences of existing economic institutions are surprisingly weak, but particularly if people start treating those arrangements as natural – as ‘just how things are’ – they can persist on the basis of power.

6. unknown quote
   “i cant believe this needs to be said, but the rich are not doing you a service by employing you.
   They require you.
   Without you.
   Everything they have is contingent on the fact that you work for them and do what they say.
   Without you, the rich have literally nothing.
   Workers have power over the entire economy.
   It is actually workers doing a major service to their employers by not unionizing and not starting a revolution, since literally the only thing workers need to do to grind the entire economy to a halt is put their hands behind their backs and stop working.
   That is it.
   Workers could crash the entire machine in one moment if they wanted.
   Stop calling them “job creators” they arent.
   They literally require you. But you dont require them.
   You are wealth creators.
   And you have the power to take it back whenever you want.
   YOU JUST HAVE TO ORGANIZE.”
   end of quote
   Imagine a world wide strike involving everyone with paid employment to end the current attempt at social media censorship, or even the uneven and oppressive taxation system, criminal pot suppression, state spying on own citizens or any thing else that riles you.
   wanna see results? then down tools walk off that job and make a sign.
   Its not that hard, mostly its just fear that keeps you all in line.
   they cant lock us all up they dont have enough prisons or coppers.

   • Thats quite true. I never thought about it like that. The rich deep down know this but won’t mention it out fear it would turn into reality…

7. Okay. I’m asking.

   When is the Coalition government going to return our GST rate to 10%? And when is the first $10 000 of income going to be tax free for people receiving less than the living wage amount?

   Or is all this ‘out of poverty’ talk just talk?

   And when are workers going to get matching perks with the business barons? Not too many people get tax rebates these days.
   There’s a lot of talk about how the owners are putting time, money and energy on the line.
   So do workers.
   If the boss is a dingbat and goes to the wall – the workers also lose out badly – particularly if there’s no money in the kitty to pay earned entitlements. Seems like it’s a shared risk instead of only the heroic ‘entrepreneur’.

   If we can get some of this sorted, we might not even have to bother the upper crust on the septic tank for any extras.

8. Paying no more than 1.5% Tax puts you in this club. A Capital Gains Tax is a must! A no brainer ay

9. Can you not here the TRICKLE? Can you not here the TRICKLE DOWN?

   If the trickle down theory is right it should be pissing down with charity now, where is it?

10. If all the rich listers and multi-national businesses paid their fair share of tax then world poverty would be history.

11. As much as Aussy sux they have had some workable ideas when i comes to the poor, tie G.S.T. collection to Community Services cards, a beneficiary can present their card at the super and get G.S.T. removed from basic food purchases, not included is cigs and bickys lol, id suggest a slimier system here, gas and fags is the biggest drain on a beny, but we are all over taxed on these items, you cant go look for a job if you cant afford gas, Winstons right all the way about that.
    All Austerity does is kill small business, wealth dont trickle down it flows upwards, to improve prosperity for all, the lower rungs of society needs to be well paid, Ma and Pa small business needs drive bye action.
    When a third of GDP is taken up bye Government, theres something wrong with the system, when the Government actively hides its election funding, theres something wrong with the Government, when Government Ministers make money for themselves selling people owned assets, theres something wrong with the entire system.
    Before the election Winston called for an Investigation into party funding donations, now Crickets, The prime ministerial salary of over 400,000 is obscene, so is the ministerial salary and the perk package for politicians. Instead of blaming the blameless try a bit of Austerity your goddam self’s.
    Want the foreign owned banks to piss off? increase their personal taxation to 60% of profits taken offshore.
    want foreign ownership of your rental to cease, tax the landlords who send funds offshore, they’ll soon sell.
    want to reclaim your water resources, tax water removed to overseas per liter, dollar a bottle. Want pollution and 1080 stopped Tax it out of existence dont cater to the users because they support your re election funds.

12. No 1. economic fallacy – that the rich get rich by working hard.
    Wrong.
    The rich get rich by
    * paying low wages to their workers
    * hiding their income in Cayman Islands bank accounts
    * bribing politicians
    * creating debt slavery in Asia and Africa
    *speculating in property.
    *not paying their bills
    *not paying their taxes.
    *supporting corrupt governments in Africa, Asia and South America
    * not paying to clean up the environmental disasters they create.
    and finally……
    *creating vast Ponzi schemes to rip off honest people.
    My Dad used to say “you can’t earn an honest million”.
    Perhaps you could substitute billion for million and you’d be right.

13. Your argument does not make practical sense. If you walk up to me on the street and give me $10, then I give you back $4. I haven’t paid you $4, you’ve paid me $6.

    Beneficiaries pay no tax because they never earned their income in the first place.

    Take the point about min wage earners though, that is fair enough. But the statement ‘Imagine if these privileged super-wealthy were required to pay the same tax rates as beneficiaries?’ is misleading and hysterical.

    • J, You know nothing about the lives of beneficiaries. They volunteer; they raise children to be the next workers; they once may have had a job but greedy businesses laid them off to make extra profits; all sorts of circumstances make a beneficiary.

      What you are describing is tax-paid beneficiary self-interested, greedy national/act mps and then you are definitely correct in that they haven’t deserved their income in the first place.

      As for minimum wage earners; I can see why you have made these ridiculous comments because you’re one of those that think it is okay to pay wages that do not allow people to live on them. That means your comments are greed-driven in that you wish to profit from the labour of others.

    • Actually the vast majority of beneficiaries, unlike the wealthy, pay way more tax in their lifetime, than they use.

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