1. Despite persistent calls from the NZ public, and despite clear explanations like yours above, I don’t think they can do that Frank.

   I think the biggest problem is within Labour. It’s the old guard, who really should leave Labour and join Act. That’s ideologically where they belong. They brought us Rogernomics and began the NZ experiment with free market ideology after 1987 and they’re still there. Stuck in old FPP thinking.

   I don’t think they’ll heed this call. They’re too stuck in their thinking.

   And yes, I completely agree, I want to vote for politicians who will work together. That is after all what MMP is all about.

   Which means I’ll not vote Labour.

   • It’s the old guard, who really should leave Labour and join Act. That’s ideologically where they belong.

     Or National, United Future or NZ First.

2. I think you’ve hit the nail on the head and I wish Labour could see it.

3. I do wonder about the Labour caucus, have they already given up already on forming a government this year, have the polls destroyed the morale and confidence of the Labour caucus. Or are they so comfortable in Opposition that they have no ambitions to form a government. I also fear there are too many members of the Labour caucus who’d be more comfortable in National and Act and perhaps it’s about time those people to came clean and join those two evil parties.
   Labour seem unwilling to make a clear distinction between themselves and National chasing the so called soft middle class centrist voters and in doing so do not give the voters enough reason to vote for them. (Those who are so called Centrist will vote National and those of us of the Left will vote for a true Left wing party)

   I do wonder if the Labour party is on its death throes and this election is going to inflict mortal wounds on Labour and mean while we will be stuck with a right wing government for several more years until the Greens grow strong enough to be the main Opposition party.
   A pessimistic outlook but Labour at the moment do not inspire confidence and just looks to me as a lifelong Labour voter ( who will either vote Greens or Mana/Internet) as a tired old party that has passed its use by date.
   New Zealanders are being screwed by National and badly let down by Labour a party that has forgotten its ‘Raison d’etre’

4. Thank goodness finally a left respected blogger says it how it is, arrogance is not only the domain of the right, in fact through all my years of political and union work for a left progressive government I soon realised that arrogance abounds even more so on the left, the divine right not to be questioned is so ingrained it is a cancer .

5. So true. Party needs an effin purge of all the National-lite idiots. National stuck with the coat-tailing provisions, so you blame THEM for any consequences – not undermine the way it will benefit the vote for change.

   Honestly, the high-sounding principles from Goff, Hipkins and co only come out when one of their clique is in the firing line. Not when our sovereignty or democracy is on the line, then they’re as wet and wishy as Washington.

6. So your position is “fuck principles, power at any cost”
   While would dearly love to see the end of Key Inc., it is dangerous to throw out your ethics and join the snake pit

   • Gruntie – At the moment we have a set of MMP rules. Whether we “like” them or not is moot. Them’s the rules we play by. Try playing by another set of home-made rules and you can sit righteously, saintlike, on the Opposition benches.

     So really, what you mean by “power at any cost”? It’s a blanket cliche, emotionally loaded, but ill-defined.

     There is no “power at any cost”. There is only “power by playing by the current rules”.

     Don’t like the rules? Neither do I. But playing by FPP rules in an MMP game will guarantee only one result. (Which I need not spell out.)

   • No one said fuck principles – the environment, cost of living, sovereignty – those are principles. Bandying words about the rules of a human made system – rules that this government set – is pure politics. If you didn’t complain when Collins ignored the review recommendation, don’t start whinging now.
     And yeah, if you’re trying to get into government to make REAL things happen, which can include making this change if you really care – don’t be an ass.

   • If Labour wanted to show how ethical it is, then it should have split by now. I think if Labour does lose this election, the one upside could be that Labour begins to realise that the term ‘broad church’ compromises its ethics.
     It’s not possible to be true to Labour’s roots and be a broad church at the same time. Also, MMP means that a broad church is a weakness – it just pisses everyone off. Half of Labour want to be like Peter Dunne and the rest further to the left. If you speak one-to-one with Labour MPs, many of them are quite left thinking; so why do they sell out for big business?
     Like everyone else with a brain, I hate Peter Dunne and know how pointless his existence is, but at least Dunne had the guts to leave Labour. Nash, Mallard, Goff, Davis and Richie Cunningham don’t have half the self-respect that Dunne has.
     That’s where Labour’s ethics are at Gruntie…so don’t go talking about a new left-wing coalition not being ethical in comparison to Labour

   • I’m not certain they ever recovered from the Neo-Lib hijack by the Rogernomes. While we’ve all made excuses for them and hoped, and waited, maybe it’s finally time to accept they no longer want to be the voice of the left, and they are now more comfortable in the beige centre? All the while trading on their history to keep the votes of the poor and disadvantaged locked down.

     Another term of principled opposition and there will be nothing left to sell. Time to get real. If Labour can’t (or won’t ) see that, then their time is over, and someone else needs to pick up the mantle.

     Time to sh#t or get off the pot.

7. No Frank, what you don’t get is that most people are utterly digusted that a convicted fraudster could purchase his own political party using a few spineless opportunistic individuals.

   Most New Zealanders see it as nothing short of corruption, that a foreigner would donate $4million to people he has no political alignment with, just to subvert the rule of law and due process.

   It is so transperarent that DotCom is trying to get in place a Minister for Justice that will use their residual power to block his extradition should the Courts say he is to be extradited. You seem to be ok with this flaggerant corrupt behaviour simply because DotCom has allied with the Left Wing.

   Most New Zealanders (left and right) aren’t however, so unprincipled. They won’t play ball with a crook who thinks he is above the law.

   Individuals don’t just donate $4,000,000 without any expectation of a return on their investment, especially not shrewd business people who make millions rorting the intellectual talents of others.

   To say that DotCom is a benign benefactor, with no ulterior motive is to stretch credibility beyond breaking point.

   Labour is right to be worried of the Dot Com effect

   • SO THE NATS GOING TO RETURN ALL THAT MONEY GIVEN TO THEM BY THE IMMIGRANT THAT BASHED HIS WIFE AND BOUGHT HIS WAY INTO NZ FOR 10 MILLION DOLLARS.. WAKE UP

   • “donate $4million to people he has no political alignment with”

     Real? Can you show us where MANA has said in the past they support US corporate imperialism? I always thought MANA’s foreign policies were against US corporate interests.
     Maybe if you’d bother to look at MANA’s policies you would have seen that their foreign policy would protect KDC’s extradition – and this was created when MANA was formed.

     Or are you just repeating what Paddy Gower told you?

     “Most New Zealanders see it as nothing short of corruption”

     Probably because they listen to Gower and have never read a MANA policy document in their life. Also, who gives a shit ‘what most NZers think’ – this is MMP, niche parties matter and they hold power. There’s a big chunk of NZ who think of KDC as an Edward Snowden sort of character; he maybe wanted by the US government, but who cares what those pricks want.
     I’m yet to find someone who believes Gower’s taglines and also understands a file sharing site. Yes, most Kiwis don’t understand file sharing sites.

   • Sure, Mark – and until National’s corporate and US donors are as open about their interests, I’ll cry you a river.

   • So Mark, you have no problem with John Key’s “Come buy some time with me” functions? or Bank’s behavior? All of which is the standard right wing way of doing politics and is far more sleazy that Dotcom openly stating that he is spending 3 million dollars on this election.

     I think the phrase you really meant to say was that it’s “not fair” -just like kids do when they don’t get all the lollies to themselves.

     Time for you to harden up and accept that the right’s traditional advantage has been neutralized this time round.

     Please note that Dotcom is very much aligned with the left when it comes to things like the GCSB. Also note that Dotcom’s motive is very clear – he has said he wants to change the government – given that the attempts to arrest him were proven to be illegal I’d have to say you’re being a bit of hypocrite – again.

   • But it was national under john key who was more than willing to take Dotcom’s millions and let him into the country, and gain residency, which he still holds. Using New Zealand as a Dotcom holding pen for the Americans has sure backfired and is biting the nats on their corrupt back sides. Dotcom has a clean slate under German law and ” “The offences involved a technical breach of regulations, were “relatively minor”, and resulted in conviction on eight charges and a fine of HK$8000 (NZ$1250)” http://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/local-news/6548232/Kim-Dotcom-convicted-as-NZ-gave-residency

   • Ok, Mark, let’s have a look at your assertions piece by piece;

     No Frank, what you don’t get is that most people are utterly digusted that a convicted fraudster could purchase his own political party using a few spineless opportunistic individuals.

     So what you’re suggesting is that if one happens to have been convicted of an offence in the past, they should never, ever, again be allowed to be involved in politics?

     There is no such law, of course. You’re making up value judgements “on the hoof”.

     Do you want such a law? How would you enforce it?

     When you say “purchase his own political party” – does that apply to Oravida making big donations to National, and then the government okays various farm purchases made by Oravida? Does it apply to Dotcom making donations to John Banks?

     So if someone makes a $4 million donation to a left wing Party – that is “purchas[ing] his own political party”. But making a donation to a Right Wing party is freedom to choose who one supports with their own cash?

     Or are we being selective here?

     Maybe we should have State funding for all political parties and eliminate the perception of “buying favours”?

     Would you support that?

     Most New Zealanders see it as nothing short of corruption, that a foreigner would donate $4million to people he has no political alignment with, just to subvert the rule of law and due process.

     What evidence do you have – aside from ‘spin’ – that KDC wants “to subvert the rule of law and due process”?

     Especially when KDC has publicly stated he does not seek political interference and prefers to let the Courts decide matters of extradition?

     “If the courts come to the decision that I should be extradited, well then that’s how it should be.”

     http://www.3news.co.nz/Brook-Sabin-interviews-Kim-Dotcom/tabid/1348/articleID/337932/Default.aspx

     It is so transperarent that DotCom is trying to get in place a Minister for Justice that will use their residual power to block his extradition should the Courts say he is to be extradited. You seem to be ok with this flaggerant corrupt behaviour simply because DotCom has allied with the Left Wing.

     1. See above.

     2. I’m not sure how you arrive at the conclusion you’ve made by claiming that I “seem to be ok with this flaggerant corrupt behaviour simply because DotCom has allied with the Left Wing”.

     You’re making a straw-man argument and then agreeing with yourself.

     Is that a private conversation you’re having with yourself, or can anyone join in?

     Most New Zealanders (left and right) aren’t however, so unprincipled. They won’t play ball with a crook who thinks he is above the law.

     Kindly explain how KDC thinks he is “above the law” when it is the government and police that have acted illegally by (a) spying on him and (b) using an illegal search warrant.

     Any thoughts on that?

     Individuals don’t just donate $4,000,000 without any expectation of a return on their investment, especially not shrewd business people who make millions rorting the intellectual talents of others

     Can the same be said of all business people who’ve donated to National and ACT – or are we just singling out left wing political parties for judgement?

     Really, what you’re saying is that big donations to National/ACT should pass without comment – but big donations to Left Wing parties merits scrutiny and condemnation?

     Universal Translation Service: the Left should stay poor and powerless so the Right can buy whatever influence they demand at elections.

     To say that DotCom is a benign benefactor, with no ulterior motive is to stretch credibility beyond breaking point.

     Nooooo, noooooo, noooo…

     I didn’t “say” that, Mark.

     You did.

     Labour is right to be worried of the Dot Com effect

     What “Dot Com effect” would that be?

     It surely can’t be mass surveillance carried out illegally by the State?

     Or illegal search and seizures?

     Or other dubious practices?

     And really, Mark, why should you care a jot? You’re not a Labour voter.

   • They won’t play ball with a crook who thinks he is above the law.

     You mean John Banks who’s presently holding up a seemingly corrupt government?

8. And why will I not be surprised that after the Next election the Greens could be the second biggest party because Labour are going to self destruct with a vengence. I thought they got Matt Macarten in to sort shit out well he must be asleep at the wheel. As for voting labour this time ….. Nope.

   • Matt is bloody good, but he’s not a bloody miracle worker. For me it’s just another example of why not to trust labour. They won’t repent on neo-liberalism. How the hell can we forgive if the keep embracing that beast.

     Also I wonder how much racism is going on with this? I think we are seeing the death of labour. Yeah they will limp on like the liberals did at the start of last century – but they are done as a political force.

   • David H – you are correct in your summation, re the NZ Greens.

     With the exception of very few Labour MPs and some unsubstantiated utterances from Winston, it’s the Greens which are offering up the strong challenges to government policies, making them the main opposition party. It must be very frustrating for the Green party, knowing the only way they can put their policies to work is through Labour being elected government. As a Green voter, I find the situation very frustrating!

     However, as you point out, whichever way this election goes, the NZ Greens will occupy more seats than Labour soon. They are the NZ political party to watch, for progressive policies, taking the country towards a prosperous future.

     Sorry Labour, as a former supporter from way back, hanging on to neo liberalism, keeping the old hacks from that treacherous ’80s government, is the beginning of the death knell for what was once a great party, dedicated to getting the best deal for ordinary working Kiwis. Not anymore though, unfortunately!

9. I’m beginning to think that most of Labour are happy with what NAct has been doing – increased spying, snuggling up to the American killing machine, attacking beneficiaries, bringing in charter schools………but realise that, after the first ACT government, they can no longer get away with doing it themselves. Therefore they’re happy to sit in opposition while NAct carries on and after three more years, when much of the damage will have been done, they’ll want to come in and make some soothing, but ineffective noises.
   I just wish their stupid sell out party would hurry up and split. Goff, Hipkins, Davis, and co. can all join National. Then the rest of us can build a left that’s prepared to do what needs to be done.

10. National fully understands the realpolitik of MMP.
    Labour – it appears – is still playing by First Past the Post rules.

    That bits really weird. Back in the early 2000s it was said that Labour fully understood MMP and that was why they were building good, stable coalitions. National were said to have no understanding of it at all as they attacked the Labour led coalitions for being a coalition while also not have having any chance of building a coalition themselves because they kept slagging off their potential partners and their only coalition government fell apart.

    Perhaps, in Labour, it was only Helen Clark that understood MMP.

    • Draco – interesting. I hadn’t considered that…

11. I’ll tell you one thing that REALLY fucks me off, and that is when John Key says things like “all New Zealanders” or “most people” or “the majority if New Zealanders” agree with him, without any evidence whatsoever, and often flying in the face of public opinion, submissions, polls etc.

    Are you listening MARK ? If you pulled your head out of your arse and read any blogs on the subject, took the time to read an overwhelming majority of comments on Goff, Hipkins, Davis FB rants, you’d know that you are talking rubbish.

    Its been very amusing calling out dumb-arse Tory trolls on the same threads – ironically they are the ones offering Davis et al support on their anti-IMP stupidity! They make it so obvious that its so easy to spot them – clearly not the brightest pebbles in the stream!

    Just about everyone on the LEFT is singing from the same hymn sheet, the feedback to Labour is incredibly consistent – i.e. grow up and work with the (other?) parties of the left, or fuck off.

    Seeing a Labour MP bag IMP and state publically that he is focussed on “a Labour victory” is just about the last straw for me.

    Who the F are Nash and Hipkins anyway? Where have they been hiding? Up until very recently I hadn’t even heard of these anonymous nobody’s !

    I assume they must be list MPs, because I cant believe people would have actually voted for either of them! Hipkins looks like a school boy, and behaves like one.

    David Cunliffe – it’s time to rein in and muzzle these eunuchs, otherwise be prepared to see your own Labour supporters stand for the new LEFT parties, in direct opposition to these clowns…I kid you not !

12. Well. We thought Labour was fixed by giving the membership a role in leader selection. But it seems another palace revolution is under way. Goff, Hipkins and Nash should be the bottom of the list. A party would need to be truly desperate to offer such trash to voters.

    Get it sorted now Labour, if you want a real election.

13. Yes, I agree with what some commentators here say, and what Frank says about the loose cannon conduct by some Labour MPs. It is not helpful to lash out at a small party combination that will probably struggle to make the 5 per cent threshold.

    But it seems to be a mixture of arrogance and desperation, as each poll seems to now spell worse news for not just Labour, but also the Greens and NZ First. They are all down in the latest poll, so it cannot just be Labour’s performance and the conduct of some angry, frustrated MPs, some of whom have been sitting in their Parliamentary chairs for too long.

    Look at some tweets coming from Gower, listen to what Sean Plunket says on his morning to noon talk back in Radio Live, listen to the ones like Mike Hosking, Paul Henry, Garner and even Espiner and so, and read the print media editorials and political commentator columns.

    This is a major problem, the MSM, who are full of right leaning reporters, moderators and these over-paid “media personalities”, they are beating the drums for the National Party and ACT, and they are biased as shit, and make no secret of it.

    When did you watch a good current affairs program, some investigative journalism broadcast, an informative documentary, any educational or culturally enlightening program on TV? Apart from Radio NZ National, which is increasingly also becoming a middle class catering celebrity chat show broadcaster (at least for much of the late morning and afternoons), where have you last heard something informative, educating and of substance being broadcast, and that without aggressive ads drummed into your hears?

    There is a dearth of such stuff on Freeview channels (apart from perhaps Qatar based Al Jazeera), and there is very little elsewhere, where it may be widely available.

    The people are being misinformed, brainwashed and dumbed down at a large scale, and as so few get good information, most do not even know what is at stake, do not know much about policies, about issues, about the social, environmental and economic challenges we face for the future. Instead we live in a land full of too many ostriches with their heads in the sand, of opportunists who drive their debt financed Ferraris towards the cliff, thinking of no tomorrow.

    Only informed citizens and residents make real informed voters and democrats. We do not have a true democracy anymore, it is a “de-mockeracy” full of infotainment and shallow messages, where politicians try to compete with celebrities to “shine” and thus convince. That is a recipe for disaster, and that is the real reason behind the mess we have.

    The Nats are good at creating spin, at tying in key media operators, and thus get their messages out, true or false. The left is busy shooting themselves in the foot and criticising each other, and following a divided kind of campaign. So the insufficiently informed voters, simply decide on shallow, useless information and messages, and go for the Teflon PM and his cabinet club and party, and thus poll and vote accordingly.

    I am sick of Labour and Green and other pollies appearing on the Paul Henry Show, where they just get taken advantage of and asked loaded, silly questions about nothing much important. Those that are so naive, and think they can get attention by doing so, they are misguided. Run your own media campaigns, by using social media and other means, dear Labour and Greens, and stop buying into this rotten, corrupt system, thanks.

    • Actually there are a couple of good political shows – Q and A and the Nation. These shows have some tough questioners and a balanced panel of left right commentators discussing the weeks political events. There’s also a show on radio live on Sunday or Saturday mornings I think which covers politics and economics.

      • Peter – Yes, of course, and I watch most of them most the time, but I find them not offering too much in depth reporting and discussion, apart from the odd interview and background report.

        I was actually thinking more of live debates between politicians and advocates and commentators, not just for a few minutes, but on some major topics for at least 40 minutes. Also some history programs, documentaries on what goes on elsewhere in the world, and natural history and science programs, as we used to get a fair few years back.

        Much of that has made room for cooking, fishing, motorsport, talent shows and contests, same as soap style series. Then we get a fair few repeats of movies. But this is sadly a global trend, where quality is deemed too expensive, and in New Zealand it seems to be a bit worse than in some other developed countries, what we have left in broadcasting.

        And re these “media personalities” we have on some regular daily shows and talk back, they are so biased as they have never been. There once was a kind of code of conduct for journalists, to at least attempt to be seen as neutral, but with less public broadcasting and the private players having changed the scene so much, there are too many that simply carry their views and convictions on their sleeves, as they say. That is not acceptable in my view. We need a balance, which is no longer given.

14. […] National wants Labour to play by FPP rules –  which certain Labour MPs have obliged (see:  The secret of National’s success – revealed). […]

15. A useful quick reference point:

    Labor = bad and rotten
    National = plain evil

    I wouldn’t trust Labor ( despite them being better than the ‘ plain evil’ of the Nats ), I’d trust the greens and IMP to keep Labor ‘true’.

    Otherwise they’d backslide and be corporate box pigs in the trough just like the blue bunch presently are.

16. It appears that NZ Herald columnist, John Armstrong, concurs with my assessments;

    But Labour is taking an even harder line by deliberately cold-shouldering its allies and thus denying them the oxygen of publicity.

    This reached extreme proportions in Labour’s initial refusal to comment on the Greens’ plan to introduce a carbon tax. Such behaviour is creating an information vacuum regarding the likely direction of a centre-left government.

    Such negativity offers no incentive for those voters who have only a weak attachment to National to switch allegiances.

    Banks’ fate just a sideshow as election looms and tension begins to mount

    As I pointed out;

    Being “principled” and attacking potential allies smacks of dis-unity. Dis-unity, in the eyes of the public, is not a Government-in-waiting. It is Labour unable to set aside self-interest and party-politics for the good of the nation.

    If the public perceive that Labour is more interested in attacking it’s own potential allies – and here is the nub of the problem – then why should people vote for such a fractious party that appears unable to work alongside said potential allies?

    Nice to see Mr Armstrong catching up. 😉

17. […] National wants Labour to play by FPP rules –  which certain Labour MPs have obliged (see:  The secret of National’s success – revealed). […]

18. **update**

    Hamish Price, who supported Kelvin Davis is one of his “tweets”, was campaign manager for current National MP and Minister, Nikki Kaye:

    “Hamish (Price, MP Nicky Kaye’s Campaign Manager) is the unnamed National party source…a man closely connected to Michelle Boag and someone who hates me, my father and anyone connected to us.”

    http://www.frontpage.co.nz/news/muldoons-ghost-haunts-whaleoil/

    • Oh how red and blue blend in so well, at times, it is causing me nausea and endless NIGHTMARES!

19. […] 7 June, I blogged on the issue of Labour’s unprovoked and negative attacks on it’s potential allies. I […]

20. […] 7 June, I blogged on the issue of Labour’s unprovoked and negative attacks on it’s potential allies. I […]

Comments are closed.