Empty slogans don’t make a defence policy – leaving five eyes does

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New Zealand deserves much better from Defence Minister Andrew Little than empty slogans justifying our involvement in the 5 eyes spy alliance.

In response to Māori Party policy to ditch the alliance Little says leaving five eyes would “threaten national security as well as global missions”.

The opposite is true.

Our national security is threatened when we line up with the US and its aggressive stance to “contain China” and assert “full-spectrum dominance” of planet earth. This official US policy means total military control of the earth’s land, sea, air and space alongside diplomatic, cultural and economic domination. Classic imperialism.

And what “global missions” are threatened by leaving five eyes? the invasion of Afghanistan? the occupation of Iraq? the destruction of Libya? and Syria? supporting vicious dictators? Supporting the brutal oppression of the Palestinian people? the destruction of democracy in so many countries? (Syria 1949, Iran 1953, Chile 1973 and dozens of others)  

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The US always acts in what it sees as its own global interests without consideration for democracy or human rights or the interests of New Zealand for that matter.  

In fact the US is the only country which imposes sanctions on New Zealand with punitive tariffs on aluminium and steel. Trump unilaterally imposed these sanctions and they are being continued under Biden. Our wimpish government hasn’t made a whimper in protest.

New Zealand does not share American values and congratulations to the Māori Party for the courage to say this aloud.

The Māori Party’s principled policy to leave the five eyes spy alliance is a welcome breath of fresh air.

53 COMMENTS

    • Understand that close military ties with the U.S. deflated New Zealand’s defence budget to below 1% GDP at times. There’s a lot of questions cutting military ties with a nuclear super power like how much will it increase New Zealands automy?

      One answer is we would have to build licenced weapons domestically.

      With China’s global reach coming down the Pacific New Zealand no longer enjoys the tyranny of distance. This would be an argument of not only getting out of five eyes but would precipitate a massive increase to military spending on NZDF.

      Let’s here it though. Please tell me The Maari Paati thought it all through.

  1. Although it’s an interesting idea, the problem is actually figuring out how to do this without having your government overthrown.

    Most politicians know the moment that they attempt this, the entire press corps will go into a frenzy. The press barons and broadcasting moguls would run hysterical red-baiting headlines non-stop, full of the same false claims we heard for years during Russiagate and Corbyngate.

    There wouldn’t be any way to fight back in the information war, because the labour movement press and broadcasting were all deliberately shut down. No press outlets would support you.

    Money would start pouring into political N.G.O’s from the N.E.D., forcing the government to ban foreign funded non-profits. This would be used as a pre-text by the U.S. to launch Color Revolution riots and attempt regime change, as was recently deployed again in the Republic of Georgia.

    You would also be fighting your own intelligence agencies. Recall that when these bases were set up, the treaties were secretly signed by the agencies without the knowledge of elected officials — the joint CIA-NSA base in Alice Springs was already being built before Gough Whitlam was even told. He had threatened to shut the base down, and we all know what happened to his administration.

    At minimum the government should at least follow suit and return to a system of tarriffs.

    • Why would we raise tarrifs? We have no factories and would be manufacturing things under licence.

      Look when it comes to reach China integrated it’s intelligence services into its culture making all one billion Chinese an informant.

      When it comes to proffesionalism no one can top the CIA budget, weapons and technology. Technology is why everyone wants to partner with the U.S.

      When it comes to corpse espionage the French DDG is the best.

      And just pure killing Mosad.

      New Zealander isn’t willing to kill someone to save a citizen but Israel will.

      I guess the worst bit is how anti defence force activists think it can all be avoided by defunding The New Zealand Defence Force.

      • Tariffs would bring the factories back again (like the U.S. is doing), and some of them can re-arm the military.

      • Sam you are right that any amount of counter focus would be applied by the US and our own deep state. To free ourselves of this will require us to await the collapse of the unilateral world, and that wont happen without a fight. Its happening in Taiwan, Ukraine etc, but this is going to take decades.

        Myself, I take the end of western hegemony as a given, the real issue is how we address our own security in a post pax America world. China or India or Indonesia or Japan might not prove user friendly. It would be useful if our leaders, diplomats and military might address what they would do in the absence of Uncle Sam.

    • We, the people, would do this, we would affect change by pressuring government into action – if – we were informed…but we are not informed, we are misinformed about this issue ditto most issues.

      Information is king, and government sails along doing as it pleases (pleasing US interests in this case) without any public push back whatsoever because the public is currently on the losing end of the information war. This place, and places like this, could do something about this, but…

      Good comment Kristoff.

  2. We should be strengthening our defence ties with our traditional allies and especially Aussie not loosening them.
    It is too late to the look to your defences when you can see the sunlight glinting off the spears of your enemies.

    • James Brown you have been watching to much crap on TV.

      I would much rather we went it alone, you know have an ‘independent foreign policy’ that would be a start. Stop siding with the Yanks and don’t side with the Chinese either.

  3. “New Zealand deserves much better from Defence Minister Andrew Little than empty slogans”

    It is Andrew Little, what do you expect?

  4. What planet are you people on? NZ couldn’t afford to fight our way out of a wet paper bag! We have NO significant offensive capability and almost no significant defensive capability. Just recently it was admitted that we can’t even cope with our peace keeping role!! An example, we have ordered 6 new unarmed Hercules transport planes costing over a billion dollars that can’t operate unless you gain control of the airspace they operate in. They are therefore only good for peace time operations unless we go to war with our allies. We actually scrapped that airspace control fighter capability decades ago! We have no choice but to rely on our allies to protect us if the balloon goes up. That’s the facts. We can’t afford a effective military, end of story. It’s like bringing a knife to a gunfight!

      • Indeed plus we have very little that would justify the expense of invading us. Spread sheeting our worth versus cost might be as useful as the moat.

        • Because invasion of NZ is expensive doesn’t justify below minimum capability investments.

          China isn’t going to gift rap an all our war to the U.S. they’re business men. No theyll do agressive border skirmishes with police on military capable vessels and just take our resources. Understand that ecenomic sanctions are an act of war which China isn’t shy of doing. We do sanctions to. Y’all got this world fucked up

          • I’m all for defense spending that increases somebody else’s cost of doing us harm exponentially. Equations like do I want to lose 10 ships and 10,000 troops to own 20 million cows?

        • Unless if I want to fuck over Oz by blockade by cutting off its Sea Lanes of Communications by using NZ as a base for my Surface/ Submarine Fleets & Long Maritime Patrol Aircraft.

          A question to you & Free Peach, how are Both you going to keep NZ’s Sea Lanes Of Communications open if & when the Asia Pacific becomes a two range?

          Or develop & fund the NZDF to maintain a Combat Capable Force to do Chap1 to Chap7 Peacekeeping/ Peace Stabilisation Missions like INTERFET was back in 99 to Article 51 of the UN Charter?

          The Maori Party says its want withdraw from 5E’s which is fine & dandy, but they & you have look at the long term consequences/ possible ramifications to NZ’s internal and external security posture?

          There is a reason a why Sweden, Finland, Switzerland & Austria spent a fortune on Armed Neutrality & especially their Security Agencies.

          Even now Ireland is facing the same problems that NZ will eventually face, because of its trading links with China, to its more Traditional trading & Security partners. As China/ Russia & the rest Asia (NZ’s other Trading Parters) with NZ’s former Security Partners Jockey for Influence within NZ and in the Greater Sth Pacific Region.

          Armed Neutrality will & can work in NZ, it will mean that both left & right of thevpol
          Be careful what you wish for?

        • Unless if I want to fuck over Oz by blockade by cutting off its Sea Lanes of Communications by using NZ as a base for my Surface/ Submarine Fleets & Long Maritime Patrol Aircraft.

          A question to you & Free Peach, how are Both you going to keep NZ’s Sea Lanes Of Communications open if & when the Asia Pacific becomes a two range?

          Or develop & fund the NZDF to maintain a Combat Capable Force to do Chap1 to Chap7 Peacekeeping/ Peace Stabilisation Missions like INTERFET was back in 99 to Article 51 of the UN Charter?

          The Maori Party says its want withdraw from 5E’s which is fine & dandy, but have they & you look at the long term consequences/ possible ramifications to NZ’s internal and external security posture?

          There is a reason a why Sweden, Finland, Switzerland & Austria spent a fortune on Armed Neutrality & especially their Security Agencies.

          Even now Ireland is facing the same problems that NZ will eventually face, because of its trading links with China, to its more Traditional trading & Security partners. As China/ Russia & the rest Asia (NZ’s other Trading Parters) with NZ’s former Security Partners Jockey for Influence within NZ and in the Greater Sth Pacific Region. Thence the Irish Commission on its Defence Force a couple of yrs ago, which shocked the Irish political establishment, at how bad things have got & that was before the Russia Invaded Ukraine.

          Armed Neutrality will & can work in NZ, it will mean that both left & right of the political spectrum will have to swallow a number of dead rats which unfortunately from my point of view I can’t see either left nor the right swallowing a those dead rats because they’re too fucking stupid to think long term.

          Be careful what you wish for?

    • Do you really think China are going to invade NZ ???

      Japan definitely thought about it during WW2 as it was the perfect staging ground for taking Australia only being 3 hours by Air and a day by Sea.

  5. There is little I would agree with that comes out of Andrew Little but on 5 Eyes he is correct .We need friends in these troubled times and I know who I want to be friends with .

    • Friends – friends that have intervened in at least 50 countries politics since the second world war, I do not regard them as friends frankly

  6. NZ is for sale and has already been extensively purchased by people who have little regard for NZ law and pay as little tax as possible here.

    I notice while they advertise corrections shortages non stop on TV, I have yet to see the government investing in encouraging NZ students to go into the so called shortages like teaching and nursing or industry getting off their arses and advertising for truck drivers and fruit pickers.

    That is because the skill shortages are often a Ponzi with workers paying for the job instead of being paid, or a third party taking a big cut of the wages, thus they want migrants and local wages and conditions do not tally up for anybody to get into that career, aka long hours, high levels of skill and stress and accountability without the wages that support the job.

    Sad that is how NZ is going, a criminal haven where the governments only idea is to recruit for more corrections as our prisons are overflowing and we can’t get local teachers and nurses as they are not a priority – gangs up 13% though who have better recruitment drives than lazy managerial class in NZ on the take.

    The risks in NZ are at record levels internally, aka terrorists being empowered to come here and harm others, drivers licenses and other documents ready off for fraud with people who can pay bribes to get the documents, people coming into NZ under false names who are already criminals and getting around our laws easily by being under another name, (the Chinese family with convicted murderer son who committed the crime in Canada by killing another student and putting her body in a suitcase, now in NZ under a different name and applying for refugee status here). Financial fraud like banking, cyber crime, Nigerian marriage scams, drug and financial mules out of control, ram raids by youth being groomed to do it. NZ is a joke for security. People are getting ripped off and poorer daily here.

  7. @ JM. I 100% agree with you. ‘Five Eyes’ is a con job. All five eyes does is swap dirty little secrets about each other, and others, with each other, and others, for financial advantage, specifically for the U$A military industrial complex who sits at the top of the terrible dung heap.
    Here’s another instance of a dodgy privateer using paranoia to infiltrate our country’s special little places.
    rnz. ( Who else. Eye roll.)
    ‘Offshore outfit rating the reliability of our media’
    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/mediawatch/audio/2018883019/offshore-outfit-rating-the-reliability-of-our-media
    US-based NewsGuard is rating New Zealand’s significant news sites for reliability – and even preparing ‘nutrition labels’ to warn users to treat them with caution. NewsGuard is also using human journalists to train generative AI innovations like ChatGPT to minimise the potential for misinformation-spreading on an epic scale.
    So yeah. Ol’ NewsGuard aye? Guarding the news. Nothing to be nervous about there.

  8. If it wasn’t for American military power, the Chinese would already be in charge here and before that the same applied to the Japanese in WW2 when the US stopped them in the battle of the Coral Sea.

    Also, in times of relative peace it is still critical to secure supply lines and NZ has the longest and most vulnerable of any country. It is the US Navy that guarantees the free passage of shipping to and from NZ.

      • And what if it is gone? Remember how quickly the Royal Navy disappeared along with the Empire when the cost became greater than the benefit. Apply that to the USA as a hypothetical eventuality, and ask what we should do?

    • HEHE the irony being when you see who owns most of Nz’s assets it appears China is already in change here ….

    • What complete nonsense.

      It i a bit like people who believe the Yanks saved us all when in fact 20 million Russians lost their lives!

  9. While the US is a fair-weather friend the tone in the majority of the comments should tell John why NZ will not abandon 5 eyes. If he concentrated on the inevitable demise of this world & the predicted US role in it he would find a cause worth pursuing.

  10. No doubt Minto and TMP are morally right. Why does NZ diplomatically send low level military to Iraq and Afghanistan and Ukraine? Because it’s unsafe not to. As Mearsheimer said if you don’t want to be a friend of the US then you can only be an enemy. That is the fate of Cuba for 70 years and Helen Clarke had Colin Powell agree we are very, very good friends.

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  11. “A question to you & Free Peach, how are Both you going to keep NZ’s Sea Lanes Of Communications open if & when the Asia Pacific becomes a two range?”

    I suspect my 100+ year old 303 might not really be up to the job, assuming Labour even lets me keep it. But unless we spent top dollar, upgraded our fleet and and added a 5th generation air force capable of supporting our ships, then our ships would rapidly become submarines sitting on the bottom of the Tasman Sea, if a serious power wanted it so.

    Have we got the money for that? No. Have we got the motivation to do that? No. Would anyone even supply us with equipment capable of lasting more than 5 minutes in a serious conflict? No. However, we do have some very powerful “friends”, who are often happy to “help out” their friends, if it suits their agenda. If we went fully independent, that probably wouldn’t suit their agenda, and that probably wouldn’t be good for us as a nation. Neutrality might work for Switzerland (they have fortified mountains, while we have the biggest moat in the world), but they are happy to train & arm their citizens, while we would rather have a disarmed & compliant population, who are happy to see their national assets sold off to foreigners.

  12. How has this blog got so many right wingers on it.

    Finally we have a political party that says they want to get rid of Five Eyes – hallelujah

    Of course if the yanks thought that was a possibility they would simply interfere with our elections like they have done in many countries.

  13. That question is also in the context of Armed Neutrality as well.

    Looks like another one from the left still transfixed on the those stupid Exocet missile, as a way of sinking Ships on a two way range? Vs what the Pommy Nuke Attack Ship did to One Surface Fleet Unit of the Argentinian Navy & as a result of the sinking of that Ship. The rest of the Argentinian Navy Surface Units ran for home & never left port again!
    Let’s see an a 5th Gen Jet Aircraft may carry 1-2 Anti Ship Missiles with limited range of Aircraft & Missile.
    A Sub with 6 Torpedo tubes with 6 in the tubes & anything from 22 to 48 reloads (not including sea mines, sea launch cruise missiles or the ability to deploy Special Force Personal for Recon or Direct Action Tasks) with range only limited to power plant of the Submarine & Crew sustainability.
    Still want to take your piss ass 4th or 5th Gen Jet then? (Disclaimer: I’m Ex NZ Army & Ex RAAF)

    NZ is a export led Trading Nation and without fair & open access to its Sea Lanes Of Communications during arm Conflict in the Asian Pacific Region! Then NZ’sEconomy is fucked thanks to 30+ yrs of economic mismanagement, because NZ won’t be able to import or export & if it did? The country managed too, it would be looking at worst case scenario at least a 50 to 75% reduction in shipping for both imports & exports as Shipping costs & more Importantly insurance costs get blown out of the water!!

    So if you want to stay out of this impending shit fight? Then Armed Neutrality is the only way to go! If you think Non-aligned is the way to go, because that stupid little moat around NZ that the left & the dickheads on the Right like the wanker John Key & Co is going to protect you? It’s not going too!

    NZ was very very lucky in the WW2 with a number of German laid Minefields, a doz or so Merchant Navy Vessels sunk off & around NZ waters & two Japanese fly overs. But if Yamamoto got has way & was able deploy the Combine Fleet at Battle of the Coral Sea instead of its useless sortie into the Indian Ocean as per the IJN pre war Battle Plans? The War in the South West Pacific would’ve end very differently for NZ & Oz!

    War is about opportunities & chance! The Japanese stuffed up their opportunity & chance because of the old Battleship farts running the IJN at time back in Japan & everyone and the Chinese knows this! I don’t trust the Chinese nor their intentions from my own personal observations & time on the ground in the Region, but I like the way they are about their business in the Region because we so fucking stupid & arrogant Economically to ourselves & more importantly to the Region.

    NZ doesn’t need 5th Gen Jets (mind you the little 5th Gen number coming out Sth Korea might be within NZ’s Budget), it’s a powerful ASW & Anti Surface Escort Fleet backed up 1st, 2nd Tier MPA & BAMS (Broad Area Maritime Surveillance) UAV’s to provide overwatch with a 4th Gen Jets incl something like the KA-50 Jet Trainer from Sth Korea Jets to provide Maritime Strike if anyone is stupid a enough to come down Sth to NZ to give them a bloody nose.

    As the Green Machine, a Small Regular Force Cadre roughly the same size of its current TOE atm & backed up a large Territorial Defence Force capable of deploying a Battalion Size Battle Group for Chap7 Peacekeeping/ Peace Stabilisation Missions.

    • Most modern military equipment is just scrap metal with dead people inside very quickly in a modern conflict, and just wait until AI driven, fully autonomous vehicles/aircraft are fully rolled out, no need to worry about G-forces, crew spaces & flag draped coffins anymore if you can afford the tech.

      • Until AI weapons get banned, which is likely to happen btw given there is a lot traction out there from all quarters of society atm.

        I hope AI weapons do get banned btw.

          • That was only for non remote control Anti Personal Land Mines.

            We still use the M18A1 Claymore Anti Personal Device (Note: the term Device & not Mine) & we no longer teach how use the M18A1 for trip since the Ban. But is still use as a command detention wpn for Ambushes & area Defence because we still have Observation of the killing ground. Which btw is how you should employ Land Mines & field engineering obstacles with fields fires of observation.

            The major concern IAW AI WPN’s, is that there is the potential for AI WPN’s to go the same way as did AP Mines, WP & Cluster Munitions did & be use indiscriminately thence the mad rush by Governments, other Government Agencies, NGO’s etc to try & nip AI WPN’s in the bud for it gets out of hand.

  14. Do you really think China are going to invade NZ ???

    Japan definitely thought about it during WW2 as it was the perfect staging ground for taking Australia only being 3 hours by Air and a day by Sea.

  15. Our Leaders ie Roger Douglas, David Lange, John Key, and Jim Bolger have already prostituted NZ off to corporate interests both here and overseas.

  16. Chief of Mfat: All diplomatic channels have failed. The sabre rattling is over. It’s very grim. A foreign invader has launched a massive airstrike against us.

    Andrew Little: Okay I’m onto it. Code red alert level ten four alpha five scrambling our main defense counter attack retaliation countermeasure multi warhead strategy super response asap.
    I’m now out on the Beehive balcony. 10 seconds to go. I’ve crouched down in the brace position to shield myself against the blast. 5 seconds to go. I’m now lighting my skyrocket. Has anyone got a milk bottle?

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