Defending the indefensible.
Whataboutism reaches absurd new heights.
Brian Berletic a leading on-line cheerleader for Russia’s war against Ukraine, admits that Russia is committing war crimes, but that the US commit war crimes too.
(which makes it OK)
A must watch into the levels of depravity plumbed by Western supporters of Russia’s war in Ukraine.
@ 3:25 minutes – “….Russia is committing war crimes. Well, that is true.”
@ 5:03 minutes – “The US did the exact same things in Iraq.”
Just as big countries will try to dominate small countries, small countries will resist
In the debate over the invasion of Ukraine, partisan opponents of US imperialism accuse those of us against this aggression of ignoring the terrible crimes of US imperialism. While they ignore the terrible crimes committed by Russian imperialism.
Putin’s imperialism in Africa
It isn’t just Ukraine: African dictators are just fine with Russia killing for money
Last week, at roughly the time that photographs and stories began to filter out of liberated Bucha in Ukraine, the NGO Human Rights Watch published a report of similar massacres which took place contemporaneously in rural Mali. What linked the two was the identity of the perpetrators. In Ukraine and across Africa, these atrocities are committed by Russians…..
…..It might be a little surprising to see how deeply involved Russia and its mercenary armies are in Africa, and how many massacres they seem to be behind.
“The day after the military staged a coup in Burkina Faso in January, supporters of the new regime took to the streets waving Russian flags,” writes Samuel Ramani, the author of the upcoming Russia in Africa, in Foreign Affairs. He documents a diplomatic and military strategy to become an indispensable player on the continent…..
Personally., I disagree with the headline of this above article, because it personifies Russian imperialism to the character of Vladimir Putin. This personalisation ignores the fact that every country with a growth economy needs to expand.
To gain control of markets, to gain control of the sources of raw materials, to deny their competitors control of these same markets and resources, to expand into every nook and cranny of the globe (and the environment). But infinite growth on a finite planet is impossible, sooner or later you wind up against natural or man made borders that put a limit on that growth. Humanity can obey these limits or try and force through them, thus imposing war on the human world and biosphere collapse on the natural world.
Yes, there are supporters of US imperialism on our side who ignore the crimes of US imperialism.
Like their opposites on the Russian side, they ignore the root cause of imperialism because they gain from it. New Zealand gains from being a junior partner of US imperialism and Western domination of the global markets and resources. And for this some of us overlook the crimes of Western imperialism. Successive New Zealand governments have even supplied cannon fodder to Western imperialist adventures.
Socialists Oppose All Imperialisms
Venezuelan socialists opposed to both US and Russian imperialism protest outside Russian embassy in Caracas against the war in Ukraine.
Caracas, May 13, 2022. In the morning hours, representatives of the Socialism and Freedom Party (PSL), the Toromayma Cultural Collective and the Citizens’ Platform in Defense of the Constitution, gathered in front of the Russian embassy in Caracas, rejecting the invasion of Ukraine, as well as in support of the resistance of the Ukrainian people and workers against Putin’s invading army….
…..As is known, the imperialist army of Russia invaded neighboring Ukraine last February 24. What some would have expected to be a stroll for one of the most powerful armies in the world, has turned into a bloody war in the face of the heroic resistance of the Ukrainian people.
Unfortunately, much of the world’s left wrongly supports Putin or assumes a neutral position, de facto endorsing the invasion of Ukraine, a country impoverished by years of brutal adjustments applied by the different capitalist governments that have taken turns in power since Ukraine’s independence in 1991….
…..In our country, the majority of the left has avoided taking a stance, while some directly support the invasion. Hence the importance of the act carried out by PSL, the Toromayma Cultural Collective and the Citizens’ Platform in Defense of the Constitution at the Russian Embassy….
…..Something to note is that a journalist from Agence France Press was there, who, upon realizing that in addition to rejecting the invasion, we did not suport NATO or any imperialist intervention, proceeded to leave without covering the protest, a reflection of the censorship exercised in Venezuela by mainstream media, which has its counterpart in the censorship and repression in Russia against anyone who demonstrates in opposition to the invasion.
Pat O’Dea is a trade unionist and human rights activist.
Thanks Pat – for sharing a different opinion…on the war between NATO Proxy Army and Russia
Well that’s a bit simplistic Nathan. Providing weapons to the Ukrainians does not supply the will to fight. Why should they roll over and give up their country? A country Russians agreed was their country, end of story. You can talk about interference in their elections but that is hardly the exclusive domain of the west/NATO. Putin used to wank on about the Ukrainians really being Russian, and he shows that how? By trying to freeze the civilian population to death?
Wheel – Ukraine will to be killed is a bit more honest
Hi Nathan, your thanks are appreciated.
Just one question Nathan; Do you think the Vietnam war, was a proxy war?
Vietnam War: The critical role of Russian weapons
APR 30 2015
RAKESH KRISHNAN SIMHA
Exactly 40 years ago the Vietnamese burst into Saigon, catching the Americans in their underpants. As well as mounting a brave defence of their country, the Vietnamese used one superpower’s firepower to defeat another.
To get a sense of how viciously the Vietnam War was fought and – more importantly – the sweeping nature of Vietnamese victory, chew on this: during the conflict the Americans lost more than 2,000 aircraft; the Vietnamese lost just 131 planes.
This astounding record notched up by the Vietnamese against a superpower with virtually unlimited military resources – and which could also count on combat support from allies such as Australia, South Korea and New Zealand – was possible because of the almost superhuman fight put by the Vietnamese military and civilians.
The war began in 1954 and ended with a Vietnamese victory on April 30, 1975. For this resounding victory the people of Vietnam did not just make tremendous sacrifices; they made those sacrifices count. The Vietnamese leadership evacuated entire cities (600,000 of Hanoi’s 800,000 civilians moved out from the city to the countryside and mountains);…
https://www.rbth.com/blogs/2015/04/30/vietnam_war_the_critical_role_of_russian_weapons_42917
[Does that sound familiar?]
….While Vietnamese morale, patriotism, superior training and the belief that theirs was a just cause were clearly critical factors, the victory was also due to the virtually ceaseless flow of weapons from Russia.
https://www.rbth.com/blogs/2015/04/30/vietnam_war_the_critical_role_of_russian_weapons_42917
[Does that sound familiar?]
Early warning by Russian military intelligence saved countless Vietnamese lives…..
….. airspeed and direction would be noted and then relayed to Vietnamese political and military headquarters. The Vietnamese would then calculate the bombing target and vector their fighters into attack trajectories. These advance warning gave them time to move out of the way of the bombers and while the bombing runs caused extensive damage, because of the early warnings from 1968-1970 they did not kill a single military or civilian leader in the headquarter complexes.
https://www.rbth.com/blogs/2015/04/30/vietnam_war_the_critical_role_of_russian_weapons_42917
[Does that sound familiar?]
American losses would have been greater had Russia provided the Vietnamese armed forces with the latest weapons in its arsenal. For instance, the OSA class missile boats – that India had used to destroy Karachi harbour during the 1971 War – never reached Vietnamese navy. These boats armed with the highly accurate Styx missile had the potential to play havoc with the US Navy. Perhaps the brass at Moscow believed the Americans would have resorted to a nuclear strike on Vietnam had they lost one of their large capital ships such as the aircraft carrier Enterprise.
https://www.rbth.com/blogs/2015/04/30/vietnam_war_the_critical_role_of_russian_weapons_42917
[Does that sound familiar]
Yes of course there was some element of ‘proxy war’ but principally the Vietnam war, was a war against US domination and take over.
The superpowers like to see their imperial rivals get a black eye.
But without the Vietnamese willingness to fight and resist the US invasion the Soviet Union would have had no where to send their weapons.
The same in Ukraine, again there is an element of ‘proxy war’ but principally the Ukraine war is a a war against Russian domination and take over.
Without the Ukrainians willingness to fight and resist the US invasion the US would have had no where to send their weapons.
Overall the type and amount of weapons supplied to the Vietnamese by the Soviet Union was much more generous and wide ranging than what the Americans have supplied to Ukraine.
For instance the US vetoed Poland supplying Ukraine with second hand surplus MIG fighters.
The US also refuses to supply the Ukrainians with the long range HIMAR missiles the Ukrainians they Ukrainians have asked for.
US rejects Poland’s offer to send MiG-29 fighter jets to Ukraine
Pentagon says Polish proposal to transfer Soviet-era planes to Kyiv via US base in Germany is ‘untenable’.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/9/us-rejects-poland-offer-to-send-mig-29-fighter-jets-to-ukraine
If Ukraine was simply a Yankee puppet state, fighting a proxy war not in Ukraine’s own best interests, as Russian propaganda keeps telling us they are. You can bet the US would not be holding back in supplying the long range weapons and the jet fighters Ukraine have asked for.
Pat, I think you miss the reality of what’s behind most of the whataboutism in regard to conversations regarding the behaviours of USA, Russia and other global power players and personalities.
You insert the
“(which makes it OK)”
in the above article. It must be stressed that this conclusion is both your own insertion and assertion. at worst it is a strawman.
Seldom, if ever, do I read that direct assertion from the people actually making such comments and comparisons of the behaviour of USA Russia etc..
In reality the whataboutism to which to refer, when it is used, is I believe, overwhelmingly used as an appeal from one party to another to exhort them examine their own possible double standards of reaction to the conflict and how it is framed just about everywhere.
In terms of the Ukraine conflict it is both inane and dishonest to apportion blame to Russia as the aggressor whilst simultaneously refusing to honestly examine the events leading up to it over several decades. in fact, factors involving the consequences of invasions unleashed on sovereign soil that go back centuries affect the psyche of the Russian and Ukrainian parties factors that most in the West, particularly the largely ignorant bulk of USA’s populace haven’t a hope of grasping.
Yet our government and media just feed us a steady diet of pro NATO, anti Putin, anti Russian propaganda. Those in the USA have had a non-stop diet of such crap for over a century and have no qualms about exporting their paranoia and dragging us into their manufactured problems.
Good on ya Pat, can’t see the Putin Apologists taking any of this to heart through.
Just a lot easier running with their ‘the West bad / anyone opposed to the West good’ worldview.
The ‘Putin apologists’ are too far down the rabbit hole to turn back.
The Putin curious following them maybe not.
There is no whataboutism here, only someone hearing what they want to hear and then cherry-picking what they want to be seen/read. Key wording here “if that is true”, not ….. “….Russia is committing war crimes. Well, that is true.” Secondary point, there is no doubts which side of this war the Venezuelan government is on, a government still largely supported by its people. Nonetheless, brave man for posting the link, looks interesting.
“if that is true”
There is no “if”. Targeting civilians and civilian infrastructure is a war crime, no matter who does it.
You misquoted Brian Berletic henceforth your “Whataboutism ‘ point is erroneous. You want to argue war crimes in general – have at it – because this argument relies upon, not so much the truth, but to whom we care to listen to.
Interesting that Brian Berletic shows concern for Ukraine, Ukrainian people and most of all, Ukrainian soldiers. As such, he’s more a critic of the mechanisms of power, namely the military industrial complex and mainstream media, cleverly using mainstream media coverage to make his points, than he is a cheerleader for Russia, granted that critiquing mechanisms of power borders upon blasphemy in this day and age. Such is the state of the world today…no wonder the calls for peace barely exist…there is no call/media coverage for it.
Written by Eric Zuesse (please don’t censor this. It applies directly and factually to the conversation. rm)
“Before Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelensky quit negotiations with Russia to settle the war in Ukraine, he told CNN’s Fareed Zakaria on 20 March 2022, “I made a point that the war in Ukraine has been lasting for eight years. It’s not just some special military operation.”
Zakaria had asked him “You have said recently that Ukraine perhaps will not be a member of NATO. You have admitted that. Could that — there are people who ask, could that concession, had you made it clearly and loudly earlier, could that have prevented this war?” Zelensky’s reply said that for Ukraine to make such a “concession” — unless some NATO countries would step up to provide “guarantees” to Ukraine’s winning this eight-year war — would be unacceptable to Ukrainians, because this war had started “eight years” earlier, and they wouldn’t accept now — after Russia’s invasion of Ukraine on 24 February 2022 — a “concession” of an indispensable part of what their military has been fighting for ever since long before that, going all the way back to 2014 — virtual if not official membership in NATO, so that American missiles can then become posted on Ukraine’s border only 300 miles away from Russia’s command center in The Kremlin. That has always been Ukraine’s goal throughout this eight-year war. And for Ukraine to “concede” it to Russia now would be for Ukraine to lose what they have been waging war for eight years in order to attain. He also told Zakaria that Ukrainians would never accept any concession to Russia on what was, before 2014, Ukrainian land: Crimea and Donbass: “Any compromises related to our territorial integrity and our sovereignty … We cannot concede to it.” The NATO issue is part of that: “NATO could be a source of guarantees for Ukraine, but we are not accepted as a member of NATO, so Ukraine has to seek for other security guarantees from individual countries, that could be NATO members. That is what we are proposing, a number of leaders of world countries could be the source of guarantees for Ukraine. They could be part of this circle of powerful countries. That is what we can talk about, security guarantees for Ukraine.” His war in Ukraine is a war for “sovereignty” within the Ukraine that existed before 2014, and including Ukraine’s right to allow U.S.-or-allied missiles to be posted there within only a five-minute flight-time away from nuclear-annihilating The Kremlin. He even said that “We are running out of time. You have to admit Ukraine into NATO right now. We do not have much time. You have to accept Ukraine as a member of E.U. [as a stepping-stone to being allowed into NATO]”. In other words: Only as a temporary measure would he accept some NATO countries offering to provide “guarantees” to Ukraine’s winning this eight-year war — and he is holding the same goal now, that Ukraine’s Government has been pursuing ever since 2014.
Here is a video of the 2014 regime-change in Ukraine which had produced this war. And here is what had led up to that historic regime-change event. And here is how that historic regime-change event ultimately produced Russia’s invasion of Ukraine on 24 February 2022.
So: the Big Lie about Ukraine’s war is that it started on 24 February 2022, instead of during 20-26 February 2014. Even Ukraine’s President acknowledges that it is false. For some reason, the leaders of Ukraine’s ‘allies’ do not acknowledge it.”
The question is; Is our PM preparing to be one of those ‘number of leaders’ of world countries to be used as source of guarantee, for Ukraine ?
Is this labour government being set up to guarantee the Ukraine, knowing that since at least the 2014 coup, the war intention was always to end up placing NATO missiles on the the Russian border ?
And what does that mean to the argument that the RF military operation was unprovoked ?
The question is; Is our PM preparing to be one of those ‘number of leaders’ of world countries to be used as source of guarantee, for Ukraine ?
Is this labour government being set up to guarantee the Ukraine, knowing that since at least the 2014 coup, the war intention was always to end up placing NATO missiles on the the Russian border ?
And what does that mean to the argument that the RF military operation was unprovoked ?
Thanks Pat, I tend to agree.
Whilst life is never black and white, we must resist all imperialistic moves across the globe.
Pat the Marxist, supporting neo Nazis. How do you reconcile that Pat?
Comments are closed.