If NZ passes religious hate speech laws, I’m afraid I have no choice but to immediately break that law for the sake of our Democracy

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If NZ passes religious hate speech laws, I’m afraid I have no choice but to immediately break that law for the sake of our Democracy!

Remember, this new religious hate speech law will specifically target ‘hate’ towards religious beliefs???

But many religious beliefs are ridiculous. Under this law, ‘The Life of Brian’ would be considered hate speech…

From the archive, 30 August 1979: Nothing funny about Life of Brian’s Jesus joke

The Catholic archdiocese has called Life of Brian a “blasphemy”, adding that it was a “crime against religion which holds the person of Christ up to comic ridicule.”

TDB Recommends NewzEngine.com

The Jewish groups are equally damning. They regard the film as “grieviously insultlng,” and have described it as “a vicious attack on Judaism and the Bible, and a cruel mockery of Christian religious feelings as well.”

…I philosophically hate religion for many, many, many fucking good reasons, but because NZ is a liberal progressive democracy, I tolerate religion.

I tolerate Scientology, I tolerate the Exclusive Brethren & I tolerate those who believe in a magical invisible flying wizard for all their personal choices!

I also tolerate that they don’t pay tax – BUT I SURE AS FUCK refuse point blank to fear them!

The atrocity that occurred in Christchurch was an obscene failure of the entire NZ Intelligence Apparatus, passing blasphemy and heresy laws to protect religion is NOT a solution to terrorism, it is cravenly caving into that terrorism!

We lose free speech to criticise religion? How the hell is that anything other than a victory for the terrorist?

This is a liberal progressive SECULAR Democracy, if you want to believe in crazy myths and crazy invisible magical flying beings, that is your total right to, but equally, it’s my right to mock those beliefs when they collide with my individual rights.

The State had time to spy on me, Nicky Hager, Muslims, Greenpeace, Māori & MANA but no time at all to spy on a white supremacy terrorist planning an atrocity?

BUT DON’T WORRY, the Gov will pass blasphemy laws & gender identity hate speech to stop the next terror attack???

Watching the Woke allow the entire NZ Intelligence apparatus off the hook for their cascade failure with the Chch terror attacks by demanding hate speech laws is one of the great intellectual failures of 2020.

The Prime Minister was deeply impacted by this atrocity, and will burn all political capital to ram these blasphemy and heresy laws through.

This is how ACT breaks 10%.

If this mad law passes, I will personally have no choice but to immediately break it, we didn’t go through the fucking enlightenment to suddenly jump backwards half a millennia!

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83 COMMENTS

  1. Jedi and Pastafarianism will therefore need to be recognised as religions, and if anyone so much as smirks in the direction of my holy colander hat… well, that’s it for them… I suggest you start dressing as a druid, Bomber, and wear a robe and sickle in public at all times…

    • Do pay your respects to The Flying Spaghetti Monster and never speaketh ill of worm like pasta in sacred tomato sauce. Arm thyself witheth a fork and enjoy the fruits of reverence.

      • Worms are symbolic of snakes, and snakes epitomise Satan ( as in the Garden of Eden, and perhaps as in the Great Satan of the Middle East ) and therefore people who put spaghetti on the top, right at the very top, of their pizzas are obviously devil worshippers, and who’d have ever thought Dipton would spawn devil worshippers, and is this hate speech ?

        What about Italians ?

  2. Unless I’ve missed something in the talk between Selwyn Manning and Paul Buchannan, there is little chance of you being arrested for religious hate speech if you apply your journalistic skill. This doesn’t include the normally sensible approach for anyone talking about anything, which is not banging on ad nauseum about any topic that almost no one can follow or relate to. As you say, if you can outline philosophically where and how a religion is corrupt, in the context of an event/s, and prove, or at least prove to a “reasonable man”, that the character of someone was influenced and negetively enhanced by a religion, and that these practises are pushed and accepted within an active group – and by that I don’t just mean pointing to a 2000 year old religious text in isolation – then not only do you have a real story, but you fall outside random hating. This approach, one of many, is well within your range of ability and proven skill.

    However, who knows what the ruling classes of NZ are actually up to or why, and they have been known to be stubborn and vindictive in the pursuit of destructive goals. They might just decide to arrest you and hold you for fun. Of course then your story trail would make them seem to have acted immorally if not illegally and you can spend the next 30 years being one of NZ’s Not Guilty tragedys. Are you useful as a martyr rather than a Martyn?

    Seeing how unintelligent our official intelligence is here, and the bungling law-making they enjoy, you could start with something simple, like proving that religious hate speech laws mean the government is enabling sexual offenders to continue their predations under the cover of their religions. That should be easy for you, and it need contain nothing hateful. Just this morning a RNZ story mentioned The Salvation Army in a story of abuse. You can’t do that! It was a group of individuals employed by the Salvation Army, not the Salvation Army! Better arrest the news announcer. Damn Hater.

    Good luck.

    • Tommy: “….if you can outline philosophically where and how a religion is corrupt, in the context of an event/s, and prove, or at least prove to a “reasonable man”, that the character of someone was influenced and negetively enhanced by a religion, and that these practises are pushed and accepted within an active group – and by that I don’t just mean pointing to a 2000 year old religious text in isolation – then not only do you have a real story, but you fall outside random hating.”

      Er…..what does the foregoing mean?

    • It’s an omission to the weak and vulnerable that something terrible happened inside our most highly skilled organisation and no one can bring themselves up to the minimum level of integrity so we accommodate these hysterical demands with state force against the very people the state is supposed to protect.

  3. I think that Professor Joanna Kidman, Sociologist, publicly accusing Trelise Cooper of showing ‘ the height of insensitivity ‘ in the naming of a gorgeous frock, illustrates the dangers of labelling persons miscreants based on subjective knowledge or beliefs.

    Cooper is a very pretty designer of very pretty clothes, not an academic or a cultural sensitivity cop, and I think this looks very much like another female – I assume that Kidman is a female- throwing her weight around
    to righteously show off.

    It is patently absurd to expect the average Kiwi to have in depth historical knowledge of Nth America, especially when they know sod all about our own history, and it is odious to imply that Trelise Cooper is behaving like a callous brute, as Kidman, Sociologist, seems to. So much for modern so-called academia.

    There are ways of doing things. Erudite Professor Sir Lloyd Geering, has written objectively on the tenets of all the great world religions, examining the thoughts of many great thinkers while doing so, and not triggered accusations of criminal activity. All this could change if subjective thoughts and opinions about others’ thoughts and opinions be subject to legislative control and it simply must not be done.

    Sociologists aside, more intellectually rigorous philosophers, or pure mathematicians, could find themselves headed to jail for vocalising an ‘incorrect ‘ thought, and this in itself is dangerous territory when already somebody like Kidman feels compelled to moan to the media about the name of a dress, which was clearly never intended to harm other people, but is now being interpreted as such. We’re headed backwards if politicos or public servants are made into thought police, aided and abetted, as usual by greedy sensationalist media hacks.

      • Tiger Mountain: “Trelise Cooper is a repeat offender on this type of product naming, and appropriating, and should have been more careful…”

        Leave her alone.

        I’m going to have to quote the Bible again, I can see that. And here’s me, an atheist almost since I abandoned the Mickey-Drips in my late teens.

        John 8:7, viz. “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.”

        • D’E
          As an atheist why do you quote text based on theism.
          There is much wider wisdom to be found in words of modern common sense that you could well piece together yourself.
          When the Romans cobbled together bits of many supernatural beliefs of the day, they created a winner that brought them trillions in today’s money.
          Control, cash and recruitment is what its all about. Obedience and sin are the whips to keep it all flourishing.
          Hate speech directed towards people can be regulated but after blasphemy has been finally ditched in NZ, now a control measure over society is being fashioned through the back door.
          Cults have authoritarian leaders and collect wealth. They need no protection but people do need protection of their freedom to think.

          • John W: “As an atheist why do you quote text based on theism.”

            Cos I got good training from the Mickey Drips and I remember it first, even all these decades later!

            A fortiori, many people having a go at the unfortunate Cooper woman would self-identify as Christian, even if they haven’t been near a church for years. So from that point of view, the Bible is an appropriate source.

            BTW, being atheist doesn’t entail rejecting religious texts, particularly if they contain a wealth of aphorisms, as does the Bible. It isn’t necessary to believe in Jesus Christ’s divinity. And I don’t.

    • Snow White: amen to everything you say here.

      “Cooper is a very pretty designer of very pretty clothes, not an academic or a cultural sensitivity cop, and I think this looks very much like another female – I assume that Kidman is a female – throwing her weight around to righteously show off.”

      Neatly put, and I completely agree. I read the first part of that news clip about Cooper, rolled my eyes and closed it. For god’s SAKE, woke folk, leave her alone!

      This sounds a bit like the Salem witch trials. And with about as much justification.

      My impression is that people such as Joanna Kidman just want to see their names in the news.

      • Just wants to see her name in the news ? Thank God for that then. I thought this sociology academic ( groan ) saw it as as a petty opportunity to have a swipe at a white woman. Hope to Hercules that I’m wrong, cos by Jove times were academia functioned at a more celestial ( oops) intellectual level than some fair ground Punch and Judy show.

        Hope Kidman doesn’t indulge in cultural appropriation from my people – or any bodies’ and how about Corrections stop prisoners from making moccasins and all the shoe manufacturers do likewise, and the girls’ schools whip off all those tartan kilts after what happened to the brutalised dislocated Scots, and all those priests wearing chasubles derived from Zoroastrian Persians apologise,and stop being so bloody insensitive to an ancient indigenous culture, and as for Christian nuns wearing female Muslim gear they should strip off too, and eating spuds is large- scale appropriation so ban that also- better to starve – and the royal family wearing those feathered fascinators néed to hear from J Kidman too, as should apple-eaters engaging in subconscious re-enactment of the Garden of Eden with the first man bombing out big time – no wonder white males are having such a tough time globally. What a mess, I kid you not.

    • Maybe it’s time that the average Kiwi did have an in depth knowledge of Nth America’s history…and what is the ‘average’ Kiwi anyway? perhaps the ‘average’ Kiwi should learn more about events in Nth America and compare them to the colonisation of their own country.

      • J.: “Maybe it’s time that the average Kiwi did have an in depth knowledge of Nth America’s history….”

        Why? In this country, we already pay an inordinate amount of attention to the US in particular.

        “…perhaps the ‘average’ Kiwi should learn more about events in Nth America and compare them to the colonisation of their own country.”

        To what purpose, exactly? How would that make the slightest difference to the current situation?

      • J. I did learn more about the events in Nth America and compare them to the colonisation of this country. How about you ? It’s not necessarily a simple comparison to make, with colonisations processes more varied, dislocated, and with the Treaty placed in a different legal context here, than America where arguments have historically been more based on the rights of indigenous peoples. Comparisons aren’t always apt or accurate.

        Had I been Kidman concerned about indigenous Nth Americans being upset about by
        Cooper’s naming of the frock, I’d have contacted her privately about it, to contain the issue, sooner than run the risk of upsetting the folk who I’m purporting to be concerned about by spreading the alleged hurting news via the media. That’s also basic good manners, and it used to be the way we were. I cannot begin to imagine my reasonably close Maori academic friend, the late Prof Eru Pomare, going to the media in this way, but the Pomares were always a class Maori family.

        I pulled out “Sovereignty & Indigenous Rights” ed William Renwick, ironically published by VUW Press, to reference Veil of Tears, but it’s not indexed, nor mentioned in the sections on Canada or Nth America in the reading which I did just do, and I am forced to conclude that Kidman is being at the least, unrealistic and gauche to expect Trelise Cooper, to have heard of it.

    • Snow White: “….Professor Joanna Kidman, Sociologist….”

      She’s Fiona Kidman’s daughter, and identifies as Maori. Though as far as I know, Fiona Kidman herself isn’t Maori.

      • D’Esterre – I don’t care what race Kidman is, but she is identified as being of Nagti Maniopoto and Ngati Raukawa descent at ‘ in abrownstudynz’ , and elsewhere as affiliated to.

        A close friend, a then prominent journalist’s young widow, got profoundly irritated by the Women’s Studies Dept at VUW, when well- built women like her were being urged to come out of the closet as Maori, when they were not Maori, by a hod or acting hod who was, and had come out.

        Anyone can identify as anything. I have been identifying as a tall rich young man for a while, but no-one believes me. I might be able to get the buggers under the hate speech law, one way or another. ( The fact that I still won’t be a tall rich young man is beside the point.)

        Law being currently passed in Scotland will apparently make it a criminal offence to say that a transgendered woman is not a real woman. Minerva knows what a real woman is, but I’d have thought a couple of ovaries and Fallopian tubes would be a reasonable place to start.

        Having said that, Trelise Cooper looks a real sort of woman to me, without my having seen her innards, but if she decided to identify as a chap to enter some light weight Olympic event, the Greek gods could start raining thunderbolts down and there’d be some disgruntled men – whatever a man is now.

        Time to abolish the Olympics too, in the interests of peace on earth. What else ?

        • Snow White: “…she is identified as being of Nagti Maniopoto and Ngati Raukawa descent…”

          I looked it up. It was her father. I was pretty sure that Fiona Kidman herself had never indicated that she was of Maori descent.

          Over the years, I’ve read a fair bit of Kidman’s literary output.

          In any event, and all that aside, it was a mean-spirited swipe for Joanna Kidman to have made at Trelise Cooper.

          The triumph of wokery over just plain common sense, in my view.

          • In my view J Kidman was being crassly culturally insensitive to Nth American Indians by putting this out there publicly in the media, and thereby increasing the risk of they feeling slighted, diminished, or hurt.

            Further, if she is teaching her students to interpret a patently innocent happening as ill-intentioned or insensitive or worse, then I query her justification and her moral mandate for doing so.

            Next thing someone from down south gets a few hundred bucks for
            putting this in the UK Guardian, as happened with Davidson’s advocation for the cunt, and New Zealand women leaders then looking dopey again, when we have had great people-focused women like Helen Kelly and Sue Bradford who worked hard to embrace the greater good.

  4. With you on this one Martyn.

    As an atheist I oppose religion philosophically. For starters, they all seem to oppress women, and indoctrinate children before they are old enough to have developed an independent world view. They commit much other damage too around the world.

    The PM will indeed likely burn her capital by the container load on this–when what the working class needs is things such as thousands of state houses and apartments, public ownership & control reinstated for all State assets and activity, and WINZ/MSD to operate on a Service model rather than a Sadism model.

    • The PM was brought up in a cult where the first rules are obedience and not to question, plus giving a tenth of your income before taxation.
      Now a massive organisation with at least 3.5 million taken from poor families around NZ annually. Internationally the estimates are about 8 billion a year “given”. Absolutely no tax paid and no accountability to contributors or any one else. Accounting is completely secret. The churches investment arm owns shopping malls, vast ranches in Miami and mid West as well as many building out on lease.
      Youths are bound try and save to pay for their two years abroad recruiting new members. This cuts across their education and preparation to become independent.
      Jacinda escaped but her family will still be the ties needed to moderate her stance and prevent her from being unencumbered.

  5. Patriarchal Monotheism religions in their fundamental essence and scriptures practice misogyny and homophobia ( just read the Old Testament with stonings and beating of women and killing of gays )

    ….how does this fit with our secular state laws which have been separated from religion for centuries?

    Where does this leave rights for women and gays? What happens to the laws that protect women and gays in a secular state society? ….rights which New Zealanders have fought for over the last century ( are they now hateful?)

    Are we entering a new Dark Age?

    Sharia Law ?

    Look what is happening in France

    Maybe there needs to be a civil case taken against these politicians who are eroding the rights of New Zealanders?

    ( It proves to me politicians are fools and have been swayed by a globalist and Woke Green agenda)

    • Yes. So if I criticize Sharia law for it’s treatment of women and girls, and say that it should be banned in NZ because we have our own laws in this country – I can expect to be prosecuted for hate speech?

      • RosieLee: “So if I criticize Sharia law for it’s treatment of women and girls, and say that it should be banned in NZ because we have our own laws in this country – I can expect to be prosecuted for hate speech?”

        If that turns out to be so, those pushing this law change are barking mad.

  6. If the hate speech law makes it a crime to say men who self ID as women, are male, or to say men can’t be lesbians no matter how they self identify…. I’d be up for breaking the law. (Transwomen are transwomen, and that’s absolutely fine with me – they should not be discriminated against – but no-one can change their primary sex – only some of the secondary sex characteristics).

    There are only 2 sexes – that’s a biological and scientifically verified fact. The government, Stats NZ, the HRC are all moving to replace sex (male or female) with gender (totally subjective according to how someone feels).

    The proposed hate speech laws are aiming to include gender/trans identification, and sexuality but not sex. Violence against women (ie adult human females) is still prevalent in our society. Misogynistic verbal abuse against females is very prevalent online and still regularly experienced offline. But these will not be deemed hate speech under the law.

    Stats NZ already collects data on the “gender pay gap” according to people’s self identified gender. So it is no longer a sex pay gap. So we no longer have accurate data on the sex pay gap – the state is well on the way to not officially recognising biological sex).

    Sexuality is currently being redefined as same or opposite “gender” attraction by the NZ state: ie based on people’s gender ID, not biological sex, as in the latest Education Guidelines for schools on Sexuality and Relationships. Homosexuality no longer exists in this. Gay and lesbian are defined as “same gender” attraction (what ever that means? people in dresses attracted to other people in dresses?).

    This is homophobic, and the plan is to teach it to NZ children and youth. Plus heterosexuality has been redefined as attraction to the opposite/other gender (?????)

    The findings of Stats NZ “consultation on sex, gender and sexuality” questions in the 2023 Census were out yesterday. The proposed question on sexuality is over-written by gender identity: it is termed “sexual identity”. Some objected in their responses. The report on the findings says:

    “Some submitters raised concerns about the intersection of gender, sex and sexual orientation. This was beyond the scope of the review.”

    https://www.stats.govt.nz/reports/sex-and-gender-identity-statistical-standards-findings-from-public-consultation-julyaugust-2020#findings

    So the replacement of sexual orientation with “sexual identity” had been decided before the consultation, or any widespread discussion of the changes in the media.

    We should surely be able to include “hate speech” under general laws prohibiting incitement to violence? And also by outlawing discrimination by in housing, education, employment, etc.

    The mainstream media has all been captured by gender ideology.

    • Karolyn-IS – I’m pretty sure that existing legislation does cover the issues purportedly being addressed by enacting some hate speech law.

      Just wait until the controversy about prescribing puberty inhibiting drugs for primary school children reaches this country. Of course Government wants to shut everyone up.

      Sexuality being defined as dependant upon inter-personal gender dynamics is something Chris Hipkins needs to justify – it’s public service speak, and forcing adult interpretations of gender upon primary school children could be regarded as corruptive as well as confusing.

      Whether msm have been captured by gender ideology, or whether they are part of an agenda, isn’t clear – the obsession with sexuality issues is global, and our media trot along like obedient puppies – which they’re allowed to – and if they’re part of some agenda, they may not even know. Stuff’s ‘white people are bad’
      stance is jumping on another USA band waggon and doing to Pakeha exactly what they did to Maori.

      • Our mainstream media and government has pretty much ignored the UK High Court ruling on puberty blockers. Even Aussie media has a couple of articles on it, and an Aussie MP or 2 has spoken about it in their legislative Houses.

        Silence in NZ.

        The latest NZ Ministry of Education guidelines for Sexuality & Relationships includes puberty blockers in the primary school curriculum. I’m curious to know what schools will be teaching children about it… or if parents think this is a suitable topic for children in schools?

        I would love to know how genderism seems to have captured so many powerful institutions internationally so quickly, including left wing political parties, mainstream media, many transnational corporates.

        I’m a lesbian who has been out on the streets in the past campaigning for our rights. Many of us now feel that the LGBT+ and its ever-increasing string of letters, no longer represents same-sex attracted people. it’s been taken over by the T & the Q, etc. who don’t accept same-sex attraction as a thing – it’s gone all homophobic and misogynist.

        And the increasing letters added to the Rainbow alphabet string mean there’s a letter for just about any heterosexual who wants to identify into – including a few males with sexual fetishes.

  7. IDGAF what free speech laws they pass, how taf are they going to police it the idiots (all govt depts listed above) cant even monitor a fucking terrorist under their own noses.

  8. I wonder if it will be applied retroactively too – at least in so far as you are put on a GCSB watchlist for something you said on Twitter or Facebook 5 years ago? I’m going with, yes they will. Can’t wait for this fucking shit show. Glad I didn’t vote this nonsense and went with Team Rimmer.

  9. Act will be well above 10% in 2023. Many like me ignored their gut, were tribal and voted National. Compare Seymour to Collins post election. Seymour IS THE LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION! His positions are clear and well articulated irrespective of whether you agree with him or not. Case in point the Australian Travel Bubble this morning explaining quite correctly a West Australian to Queenstown posses less covid risk than an Aucklander!

    He has my vote

    • Frank the Tank: “Act will be well above 10% in 2023.”

      By the end of 2018, I’d decided to vote ACT at the 2020 election. I’m an old lefty, but by then it was clear that the current government wasn’t going to do what it had promised to do. Or anything else of moment, either.

      I don’t agree with Seymour’s take on every issue, but by God he looks and sounds like a proper political leader. And at least he’s honest about his party’s policies. Unlike the PM.

      In fairness to Judith Collins, I was impressed at her performance in the election campaign. But I stuck with ACT, and I don’t regret it.

  10. The PM is a bloody fool. Nice woman no brains.
    She has bitten off more than she can chew here.
    Is Ms Ardern even aware we are a secular society? Has she read ANY NZ History? Does she have the intelligence to develop a personal philosophy? I f so please please would some kindly retired Professor of Religion and Philosophy put her thru a crash basic course in Logic over the Statutory holidays.
    Then move on in bite sized chunks to Strategy, Analysis and rudimentary Classical History.

    • The PM would be much better off having a ferocious public debate over a policy reversal on capital gains, and building thousands of new houses and apartments from one end of the country to the other. That would be a good use of the Govt. majority and “political capital”–whatever that actually is! Plus there would be a tangible result, namely more people in affordable housing.

      She is on a rough ride to dissapointment for little gain, with the hate speech issue. Though who knows, the neo libs probably know the numbers that will get excited about hate speech, and are confident they can push it. But, Labour ignores populism/neo fascism at its peril and the country’s peril.

  11. Tiger Mountain: “Trelise Cooper is a repeat offender on this type of product naming, and appropriating, and should have been more careful…”

    Leave her alone.

    I’m going to have to quote the Bible again, I can see that. And here’s me, an atheist almost since I abandoned the Mickey-Drips in my late teens.

    John 8:7, viz. “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.”

  12. This is a long and slippery slope. The obvious problems are; what qualifies as hate speech and secondly who gets to decide. We have witnessed language subjected to “concept creep” all over the western world, while words have had their definitions rearranged, generally by Critical Social Justice proponents, whose main goal is to control language which effectively captures the narrative. This is simply Orwellian by nature and could be filed under “Newspeak”. The fact that these people define themselves as on the left is frankly appalling. Critical Social Justice has no intention to change the world for the better, it only exists to gain control, while possessing a religious “leap of faith” quality. It has no mechanism in place to solve homelessness, perpetual wars, massive economic inequality or climate change. It serves narcissistically only to remake the world to match their myopic ideology.

  13. “The atrocity that occurred in Christchurch was an obscene failure of the entire NZ Intelligence Apparatus….”

    The evidence produced by the royal commission says that Tarrant was a lone wolf-type attacker. It wasn’t a failure by intel, because it would only have been by chance if they’d identified him beforehand.

    He’s an extremist. NZ has no history of extremism of the sort he espoused: the evidence for that is the absence of previous attacks of this nature, in which large – or largeish – numbers of people died.

    Intel was – rightly – focused on Islamism, which poses a much more deadly – and possibly immediate – threat than do a minuscule number of NZers with extremist views allied to those of Tarrant.

    Keep in mind the attacks which continue to happen overseas. Including Vienna, very recently.

    I very much hope that intel here doesn’t drop the ball by taking its eye off Islamism.

    • Bullshit,

      the guy was only a “lone wolf” as it is modus operandi of the far right. He was connected and influenced by other far right operatives here and overseas. So it was a failure of the “5 eyes” as well.

      No history of the extremist of the sort he espoused – where you been living, under a rock. Apart from the collection of far right groups who routinely attack women, gays and Māori. Let me point out this doozy from 30 years ago – another far right terrorist killed 13 people, including a police officer who thought he had surrender to him.

      What the name of hades is Islamism, oh the new pc term to describe far right Muslim cocks with guns, bombs and the desire to kill. Oh how very kitsch.

      Well at least our government is keeping an eye on one mob from the school of far right nut jobs, just not the white ones.

      • Ignatius: “the guy was only a “lone wolf” as it is modus operandi of the far right. He was connected and influenced by other far right operatives here and overseas. So it was a failure of the “5 eyes” as well.”

        I’m a bit puzzled by what comes across as a belligerent tone in your comment. Read what the royal commission found: I have.

        I wonder if its conclusions disappoint you. Were you hoping for some sort of vast, right-wing network here? It doesn’t exist, you know.

        It doesn’t follow that there is no far-right extremism at all here: it’s just that numbers are fairly small and it isn’t the sort of well-organised entity that obviously some people here were hoping for. And such extremists as are to be found in NZ actually don’t go in for atrocities of that sort.

        Were any such thing a feature of the NZ political landscape, we’d have seen evidence of it in my lifetime. We have not.

        In fact, it looks as if Tarrant came here precisely because there’s no history of far-right extremism: thus he could plan his attack without attracting unwanted attention. He apparently drew his influences from Breivik and YouTube.

        Although a commenter on this site last year said that Tarrant had come to NZ because he couldn’t get into the US. That may well be so.

        “Apart from the collection of far right groups who routinely attack women, gays and Māori.”

        I do know about the skinhead-type people here. Anyone who lived in ChCh 30+ years ago will remember the Harris gang. But as I’ve already pointed out, such people don’t kill large numbers. Or anybody at all, for the most part.

        “Let me point out this doozy from 30 years ago – another far right terrorist killed 13 people….”

        Oh dear….it looks as if you’re referring to David Gray. I remember that awful event vividly: we were in ChCh at that time, and I worked with people who came from that area. It was very distressing.

        He most certainly wasn’t a far-right terrorist: he was a loner with shaky mental health, a cache of guns, and – as far as anybody could ascertain – a grudge against the world, which he murderously took out on his neighbours, along with an unfortunate policeman.The laws of the time regarding gun-owning weren’t as tight as they now are.

        “What the name of hades is Islamism….”

        Say what? Surely you know about Islamism! It is extremism of a similar sort to the far-right version. If one reads Islamist manifestos, they’re remarkably similar to what Tarrant posted online: it’s all about the great replacement, but just swap Christians for Muslims.

        “Well at least our government is keeping an eye on one mob from the school of far right nut jobs, just not the white ones.”

        Again: say what? In virtue of what would you assume – as it appears you do – that no Muslims (whether or not Islamists) are white? You surely do need to visit Europe and parts of Central and West Asia (when it’s possible again), to be thoroughly disabused of this notion.

        Heck, you can see this even here in NZ.

        And yes: our government would be derelict in its duties, were it not to be keeping a wary eye out for Islamism. I remind you of what has happened repeatedly in Europe and elsewhere over the past few years. Most recently in Vienna, where we have family. A very scary time for them and their fellow citizens. And for us, of course.

      • Ig – If you are referring to David Gray at Aromoana as a right -wing terrorist, then I suggest that it is you who do not know what you are talking about.

        One closely involved in the aftermath of that tragic happening, and spent time in Gray’s house, described it to me as a picture of the loneliest man in the world – and no, not a police officer. Gray was his own terror.

        Rewriting history to suit one’s own political narrative is not socially constructive.

    • ‘Intel was – rightly – focused on Islamism, which poses a much more deadly – and possibly immediate – threat than do a minuscule number of NZers with extremist views allied to those of Tarrant.’

      Could it be that the reason many Islamic people are so against ‘the West’ is that Westerners -particularly the Americans- have a tendency to invade them, drop bombs on them, fire missiles at them, prevent them acquiring medicines, and carry out unlawful murders using drones etc,, resulting in chaos and misery in the Islamic world and the murder of hundreds of thousands (arguably millions) of Muslims. And most of that anti-Muslim activity is associated with maintaining control of oil.

      All of which begs the question: How did OUR oil end up under THEIR sand?

      • Could it be? In short: no, it couldn’t.

        The only thing that put an end to continual attempts by Muslim rulers to conquer and colonise Europe was the Europeans slowly developing and impose Islam on it was an overwhelming technical advantage over the Muslim world. Don’t bother looking for good guys and bad guys in this conflict, there aren’t any.

      • Afewknowthetruth: “And most of that anti-Muslim activity is associated with maintaining control of oil.”

        You’ll get no argument from me about the underpinnings of Islamism. I’m well aware of that history.

        But Western crimes in oil-rich parts of the world don’t in any way justify the murder of innocents, there or elsewhere.

        As we’ve seen worldwide, fundamentalist Islam has been only too willing to act on its vile theology. Therefore our security services need to be keeping a constant eye out for it.

        Our remoteness doesn’t protect us from violence of any sort – as we’ve seen with that Australian fellow – so it’s important that security services also focus on right-wing violence. But not to the exclusion of Islamism.

    • D’Esterre Correct. One mad little pint-sized Australian on steroids, has inflicted much more damage upon the whole of this country, than his terrible slaughter of Muslims in Christchurch : knee jerk reaction from the PM regarding our freedom of speech, and all of a sudden, extremist fundamentalist Islam vanishing off the radar.

  14. 100% Martyn.

    Anything that undermines my rights under the Human Rights Act regarding freedom of expression will get me marching in the street alongside you.

    I know you’ve mentioned it before – but notice just how illiberal is the woke element of the left. So are they far left or…far right?

    • …they are far right….. fascist …and globalist (posing as woke virtuous international far left)

      ….they want an excuse for intrusive covert surveillance (….personal and thought and financial control surveillance) …they want control and censorship of the media and the internet….they want control of Elections…they want to subvert Nations’ Democracies (eg USA)…think perpetual wars(Middle East)….think stealing of Nations’ wealth (eg Libya)…think no borders and super exploitation of workers…they want to pit citizen worker against worker and race and culture against each other…they want to divide and conquer…(they want to protect their own wealth and their own power)

      (… think the 1 percent international super wealthy oligarchs)

  15. Never forget that the worst ‘terrorists’ can be found in the halls of power of western nations, including NZ -in parliament and the [un] civil service.

    The architects of the system we endure captured brown people and black people (can I say that? or do I have to say people of different ethnicity?) and after terrorising them, worked the ones that survived the Atlantic crossing most grievously on land stolen from the indigenous populace via acts of terror and genocide.

    In the 40s the architects of the system we endure terrorised hundreds of thousands of women and children via prolonged mass bombing campaigns, killing up to 80,000 per night in infernos that rained from the sky, night after night. Even the medieval city of Dresden was not spared.

    In the 50s and 60s and 70s the architects of the system we endure murdered millions of Asians, again mostly via a rain of fire and explosions from the air, in futile wars, because those people rejected the bankster-owned system we continue to endure.

    In the 20s, 30s, 40s, 50, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s and 2000s the architects of the system we endure sent fighting men into other sovereign nations, as part of campaigns to steal resources and topple governments that didn’t comply with the requirements of Rothschild banks or other western corporations.

    The people who are running the system today, right now, not their predecessors, not people who lived decades or centuries ago but people in parliament and the various bureaucracies associated with parliament, are, at this very moment engaged in a war on nature, a war on the children’s future, a war on the general populace, and a war on truth.

    As for religion, well that has provided a convenient pretext for torture, murder, incest, slavery, land theft, invasions, wars, social control, exploitation, and transfer of wealth from the have-nots to the haves. And in recent times, consumerism.

    Right now half the population is suffering from feelings of guilt because they haven’t got the money necessary to fulfil the wants of others in the celebration of the entirely phony festival of Christmas, which has nothing whatsoever to do with the birth of Christ, and is simply the pagan midwinter festival of revival of the Sun, hijacked and revamped by the Christian-era Romans (who couldn’t even the calendar right).

    So, NZ is being morphed from a covertly fascist state into an overtly fascist state.

    It doesn’t surprise me in the least; I warned about it a decade ago.

    Are they still torturing Julian Assange?

    After losing his way for a while, Winston was rehabilitated and he absolutely loved Big Brother while he waited to be shot. Julia, the same.

    .

      • I don’t forget Chinese atrocities -Mao starving 30 million to death in order to export grain to Russia to pay for industrial equipment, and instructing the peasants to make war on sparrows, blamed for the lack of food.

        It can be argued that Mao was not directly responsible, and may not have even known what was going on, and that zealous local party officials, eager to outdo neigbouring districts, took more food off the peasants than was actually required, just to show how good they were.

        But point here, is that whatever actually happened, it was Chinese-on-Chinese abuse….as opposed to the abuse the Europeans handed out to the Chinese, following the ‘gunboat diplomacy’ of the 1840s: slaugher, invasion, introduction of opium, and another round of invasion and slaughter when the Chinese had had enough and revolted in the Boxer Revolution. But nothing competes with the abuse of the Chinese by the Japanese, who slaughtered approximately 250,000 Chinese after raping a large number of them when they too control of Nanking. And of course, the hideous experiments done by the Japanese at their eradicate-the-Chinese research establishment: those evil people made the Nazi who ran the European death camps look good.

        But the real point is, New Zealand sending military people and equipment to invade nations that had no quarrel with us!

        And now we endure the continuous assault on the future of the populace by the truly awful Adern government, which is essentially full of shit, all talk and no action or completely the wrong actions.

        • Tibetans would disagree with you….so would the Uighurs….as would the Chinese dissidents who have died in their millions…and the Hong Kong and the Taiwanese…who all FEAR China!….not to mention its neighbours

          …and those who have sought and are seeking refuge in the West

          https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2019/country-chapters/china-and-tibet

          https://www.chinasucks.net/human-rights-violations-in-china/

          https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2020/country-chapters/global

          • You are still completely missing the point.

            Taiwan was part of China for most of its history, occupied by Japan during Japan’s period of imperial expansion, and then liberated, not directly but as a consequence of the Japanese surrender.

            In the chaos that followed the defeat of Japan the civil war in China, that had been put on hold to fight the Japanese, was resumed. The communist forces prevailed. The Nationalist (read loot and pollute and exploit, as per the US system) stole the gold, invaded Taiwan, killed off the Taiwanese leaders and took over, as a dictatorial military state….right through to 1987. No wonder the Americans ‘loved’ Taiwan.

            China has always had the policy of its ‘lost province’ returning to the fold.

            Tibet; well there’s a lot more to that story than meets the eye. The Americans and British really did not want a communist China and would have attacked through India if the Koreans hadn’t decided to throw out the American puppet government set up in a hurry after the Japanese troops were told to surrender.

            China has many, many reasons for not trusting the west going back well over a century. As does Russia.

  16. Begs a few questions,

    Can Christians call out others who say they are within the bounds of Christianity for being heretics? My take is anyone who supports prosperity theology is a heretic and does not have the right to call themselves a Christian.

    What about Christian fascists’, can we call them out for the scum they are?

    Can other religions be criticized. Like the obvious Ron Hubbard piss take, that is scientology.

    Do poets now wither on the vine?

    Yehuda Amichai:

    Don’t stop after beating the swords
    into plowshares, don’t stop! Go on beating
    and make musical instruments out of them.
    Whoever wants to make war again
    will have to turn them into plowshares first.

  17. Ideas that make claims about reality must be contestable. Or, fuck faith.

    I expect these laws don’t exclude that discussion. Just craze so present these days. See Fox News.

    We need to do something about anti-realists.

    The whole message of the last 40 years is a stronger democratic govt. Or, against the rich with gold pumbing. Except there is no mass movement anymore … for anything really.

  18. So Martyn, you tolerate the Exclusive Brethren wrecking families like mine and my dad’s during the last 60 years?
    Well sorry, I don’t. It is nothing but extreme child abuse that politicians and most journalists choose to totally ignore.
    We rush to throw away the key when locking up paedophiles but look the other way when other abuses occur – why? Cos Plymouth Brethren Christian Church money talks. The dirty dollar is more important than familial security for children.

    • Kyle N Hornsey: “So Martyn, you tolerate the Exclusive Brethren wrecking families like mine and my dad’s during the last 60 years?”

      In fairness to Martyn – and not wishing to answer for him – I’m guessing that he tolerates the existence of the Exclusive Brethren, not of the awful things of which it’s accused. There is a difference.

      I feel the same way as I assume that Martyn does, though in my case about the Mickey Drips. I tolerate the church’s existence, but I deplore its appalling record of child abuse and its failure to be upfront about it for so long.

      I shake my head at people who are still Catholic, but it’s their business, not mine. This is a free, secular country: others are free to be theists, I’m free to be atheist.

    • That’s totally unfair. Of course immoral acts disgust us. Next time if you or anyone else else have a personal or news worthy story I strongly suggest you pop it in the suggestion box or what ever. Martyn is far from asshole you would have others believe. And that’s that.

  19. I feel that anti hate speech laws should also extend to the demonisation and vilification of foereign statesmen for propaganda and political purposes. Our policies lshoukd be to make friends, not enemies. This would certainly also help to create an anti war sentiment.

  20. Oh Joy.
    Pass this law and I’m going to have a field day switching labels around in all the bible and koran passages calling for gratuitous violence against atheists and members of other faiths.
    I can’t wait to rub their noses in it.
    With luck we might even get their hate books banned.

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