Lange rolls in his grave – China threatens NZ and Jacinda’s softly softly highlights how weak NZ really is in this abusive relationship 

1. Well who do the farmers always vote for in our country? As for China pushing its weight around literally bullying behaviour. I think it is our own fault we have become too dependent on them so we only have ourselves to blame. China are holding all the cards and they know it.

   • I sometimes miss Muldoon. He, at least, went someway to make us an independent nation rather than leaving us dependent on those more powerful than us.

2. The problem our dairy farmers face is the same one they have faced for decades. Ever since Britain joined the Common Market our so called friends and allies have systematically closed access to their markets thru tariffs and quotas. At the height of the Cold War the USSR was a major trading partner for the Dairy Board because out ally the USA would not take our product. This state of sffairs continues today

3. Sometimes the quietest voice has the most powerful effect.

   You really want her to do a boomie blustery Trump-et call???

   Give me a break.

4. “Thank Christ that level of acquiesce wasn’t awake when our soldiers fought Fascism”

   Those who did the heavy lifting against fascism were the communists.

   Those who sacrificed the most in the war against fascism were Russians and Chinese

   • Russian communists sure. Chinese communists not so much.

   • Chinese communists? What Chinese communists?

     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhMAt3BluAU

5. I, for one, have absolute confidence in my present PM’s ability to deal astutely with such matters.

   …unlike the opposition, who cannot extricate themselves from their own entanglements.

6. As Jacinda said, there are NZ citizens in Hong Kong right now.

   And you’re calling on her to do a little Haka and cause those people to be picked up off the streets over there and to never be able to return.

   • “and cause those people to be picked up off the streets over there and to never be able to return.”

     FFS your comment is so detached from reality —what can one say, those who are really deluded do not know they are deluded – that’s you mate

     • You know I have family over there?

7. Lange ‘turning in his grave’?
   Seriously Martyn?
   Lange eventually rolled over to the French for the sake of trade….
   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10333759

   “Lange point blank refused to deport them. Paris retaliated by blocking New Zealand exports, notably lambs’ brains, from entering France.

   “This was a very, very unprincipled act to try to coerce us,” says Sir Geoffrey of the big power-small nation imbalance.

   But he and Lange could see the much bigger writing on the wall – a French veto blocking New Zealand’s vital access to the British lamb and butter market, which was up for renegotiation in Brussels.

   “It was clear New Zealand could not win a trade war against France.”

   New Zealand got a formal apology, trade undertakings and $13 million in compensation. France secured the release of Mafart and Prieur from New Zealand prison to the French military base on the barren Pacific atoll of Hao, where they were to be confined for three years.
   No one was surprised when the French later breached the settlement and repatriated the agents to France on dubious medical grounds, firstly Mafart in December 1987 and Prieur the following May.

   New Zealand, powerless to stop them, invoked the settlement’s arbitration procedures. ”

   If Lange seemed to take a tougher stance against the French than Ardern is taking against the CCP it is because the French had committed an act of war against us. Go right ahead and use the same comparison when Ardern buckles when the CCP does likewise.

   • Spot on, you bet me to it. One of the few times I’ve been ashamed of my country was when Lange went on a snivelling backdown to the French. He should have forced the issue to deal with those criminal murderers & if necessary put the UK right on the spot to decide if they wanted to publicly support state sponsored terrorism. If he had we might not have lead down the long road to the current issues with China. Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

8. There are a few other New Zealanders who indirectly benefit from dairy sales to China apart from farmers Martyn. I know it’s complicated; but you see we all live on the returns. Even your good self. It allows us to buy things that we can’t make here so efficiently. Or we dont have the raw materials to make them with.
   D J S

   • And the trade-off for this is “wadeable”rivers and the expectation from China’s dictatorship that New Zealand will remain silent while it commits terrible human rights abuses and makes territorial grabs that are totally illegal under international law.

     It is absolutely legitimate to ask if the price we are paying with our environment and our principles is too high for what we receive return.

     • “It is absolutely legitimate to ask if the price we are paying with our environment and our principles is too high for what we receive return.”
       I absolutely agree withe this statement .
       It isn’t farmers making this decision. They are just doing their best to earn an honest living by hard graft in an industry that provides people with their essential needs.

   • I know it’s complicated; but you see we all live on the returns.

     No we don’t. NZ sees little to none of the returns to farmers. A lot will go to the banks, some will go offshore (probably into tax havens) and then the farmer might actually spend some in NZ.

     It allows us to buy things that we can’t make here so efficiently.

     We can make anything we choose to make here. We actually have the resources and the intellect to do so. The problem is that its actually expensive to develop the economy and so our so called leaders have been focussing on cheap and nasty farming and tourism as if that will work and then wondering why our wages have been going down in comparison with Australia and the rest of the developed world.

     Did you know that HMS Achilles (later to become the HMNZS Achilles) was the first Royal Navy cruiser to have RADAR? And that that RADAR was developed and made in New Zealand?

     We used to be a nation that tried to push ourselves but now we’re just a nation of peasant farmers and being held that way by idiots like you.

     • “We can make anything we choose to make here. We actually have the resources and the intellect to do so.”
       I do agree with this and deplore the globalist philosophy that has driven government policy since 1984 that does not allow any protection for local industry against imports from other countries that do not have the same protection for worker’s remuneration or safety that we have. Aside from which with exchange rates being overwhelmingly set by speculators, the idea that overall efficiency is being found by free globalised markets and floating exchange rates is farcical. A few years ( Ruthanasia epoch ) after floating it was in the news that for every dollar traded internationally to facilitate a real trade of goods , 32 dollars was being exchanged for speculation. i recently thought to see how that was still the case and fond that our international trade was about 180 billion a year counting in and out , and that the dollar was being exchanged at about 100 billion dollars per DAY. So the relevance of efficiency of production in either exports or imports has an influence of about 2% c/f speculative John Key type operations.
       ” The problem is that its actually expensive to develop the economy”
       I disagree with this: all that government needs to do provide the environment where a local industry can exist in fair competition with imports. As you say there is no shortage of enterprise intelligence and courage among New Zealanders to do the rest.
       it is not the fault of New Zealand farmers that this does not happen and neither is it the wish of a single one of them that it does not. It is all about the ideology we have had imposed on us for the last generation.
       D J S

       • I do agree with this and deplore the globalist philosophy that has driven government policy since 1984 that does not allow any protection for local industry against imports from other countries that do not have the same protection for worker’s remuneration or safety that we have.

         True but its not that protections are needed as such. Actual economics should achieve that. What is needed is for all nations to have the same minimum wage, the same labour laws, the same floating exchange rate based upon trade weighting, etcetera.

         We don’t have those and the glaring one that you point out is that exchange rates are set by speculation. Which means, of course, that economics hasn’t actually been applied to bring about fair trade.

         And, yes, despite being one of the smallest economies in the world our dollar is one of the most traded in the world. Which, to me, indicates that its used for less than sterling purposes simply because it is one of the easiest currencies to trade.

         It takes time, effort and resources to develop an economy and our leaders don’t seem to have been willing to provide any of them.

         And it is, largely, the fault of the farmers that this doesn’t happen. They’re always demanding that the government open up new markets and that they should be protected in any number of ways.

         Think of it this way: If we had the fair trade systems that I describe above would we be exporting any food at all?
         And if we weren’t exporting food then how much of our land would be used up in farms?
         And if the land used up in farms dropped down to only that which was necessary to feed us then what would the ~5% of the population made redundant be doing?

         See, that 5% of excess people used on farms would be able to do something else such as mine the bauxite deposit in Northland or the rare earths around Rotorua and Taupo to support an indigenous tech sector. Or, hell, even just have more doctors for our hospitals.

         Many of those 5% want to be farmers? In a free and fair trade system you don’t always get to be what you want but there is always a demand for your skills – even if you have to re-develop them (which, BTW, is why I support free education).

         • “What is needed is for all nations to have the same minimum wage, the same labour laws, the same floating exchange rate based upon trade weighting, etcetera.”
           What that would require is the one world currency that Keynes wanted to introduce as an essential part of the reset of the world’s economy at Bretton Woods. That would eliminate speculation in one move and set everyone on a level playing field. It would I believe expose the falsity of the economics of the vast majority of world trade which I;m quite sure only appears to be efficient use of labour and resources because of the distortions created by the skewing of exchange rates by this speculation.
           It may be less so now that grassland farming has become more of a chemical operation than it was here 50 years ago , but I think that the reverse of this trade reducing effect would occur to our farm products. Because traditionally , because of our climate and relatively small population we can produce food more genuinely efficiently than almost anywhere else in the world. Rationalising currencies would improve our competitive position.
           Ter is no good reason that we should not be making full employment the bottom line of running the economy , and importing only what we haven’t the labour resources to do here.
           D J S

           • A single world currency would eliminate speculation in the exchange rate but it would then have governments and private actors messing around in the pricing even more.

             That’s why I said the same laws and same enforcement with the exchange rates set by trade weighting (The purpose of exchange rates is to balance trade between countries). Then we can be reasonably sure that the price at the gate is the same everywhere in the world for the same product.

             After that we’d have distance costs added and so something made in NZ is going to be cheaper in NZ than something made in Japan/China/USA and vice versa.

             Jumping straight to a single currency bypasses the necessity of everyone having the same laws. Its a quick fix that won’t fix anything.

             And, no, NZ farmers still won’t be able to compete with other countries production.

         • Inflated land prices fostered by banksters make farming beyond many young hopefuls.
           Land should not be privately owned and so not the base for speculative fiscal ruination of agriculture.

           • I’d say that the inflated prices for farms is due to:

             1. Lack of land. Really, we’re already at ~54% of total land area used for farming.
             2. Land being bought out by rich foreigners for both farming and other uses.
             3. Multiple farms being owned by a single NZ farmer

             We really are at the point that people who want to become farmers can’t.

             But we’re also at the point where we should be saying that we have too much farm and we need to cut back so as to save our environment so as to save the services that the environment does for us..

             • Yes farming and particularly dairy does need to be cut back drastically if we look at the damage being done environmentally.
               The extraction industries leave a trail of damage that they do not meet the cost of when it comes to restoration.
               The importation of crap to clutter up shrinking landfills is enabled by the dairy industry polluting land, ground water and rivers as well as displacing wetlands, native forest and wilderness. The fertiliser used on farms alone has a highly significant GHG emission.

       • Agreed DJS and Draco.
         The imagination of Kiwis has been flattened by the 1984 assault on our capability and communities.

9. ” John Key’s pump and dump economic scam pushed all our cows into one Beijing paddock and the real price was our dignity ”
   With neoliberalisim and a PM who is a wealthy ex currency dealer running the show dignity no longer existed.
   Sure we are subservient when it comes to Beijing and the Americans come to that because we sold out years ago to globalisation and being told to jump without asking how high.
   Independent foreign policy is dead if we want to be in the club and make money from our exports.
   I guess that means we will just have to settle for the international admiration bestowed on our PMs for our sense of pride and those rugby hero guys.

10. That’s so 20th century Martyn. We have to move on. Hong Kong could have always expected their events to arrive sooner than later. China is behaving in some ways like Saudi Arabia, and they are frightening. The big powers ratchet up the shit all the time. We meed to have good private intelligence about what is going on and not where it can be tapped into by our ‘friends’ in Five Eyes or any other dirty-fighting country. We can’t expect to be completely pure ourselves, but as pure as can be expected in the present state. What other world allies can we have relationships with? Smaller countries that know what the big powers, or the big egos can do.

    Maybe we can offer to help with the Ughur problem in some small way and cause a crack in the impenetrable wall. Doing little good things in a practical way might bring chaos theory change. Going at things like a bull at a gate, snorting heavily, head down, will just invoke anger and intransigence. This isn’t rugby Dr Ropata. I throw that in to see who can shift a cog or two in the constant circle of discussion along historical lines.

    • The Ughur problem as promoted by US based propaganda is very different on the ground.
      When reading about the Ughurs check the sources very thoroughly.

      We also had WMD in Iraq from allied sources.

11. +100 good Post from Bradbury….most New Zealanders would agree with this including farmers!

    …why dont we sell to the Russians instead of the Chinese( Jonkey Nact ruled this out)

    ….we must find other markets!…and sever links with China

    ….and maybe this is why Winston is getting help to do an EXIT (Brexit) ( NZexit)

    • We don’t just get to pick who we sell to.

      There has to be a willing buyer as well, who will buy in sufficient quantity.

      Yep, sever links with China, and see what happens to the unemployment rate and the economy.

      Martyn just rants on an on, full of hate and anger. It would be more constructive if he came up with a viable economic plan for New Zealand and promote that. Have rarely, if ever seen him do it.

12. The last time Chinese Ambassador Wu Xi spoke in publicly in New Zealand it was to criticise and complain about about New Zealand’s travel ban on people who had recently been in China. She made this complaint on February 18th 2020, at least one full month AFTER the top Chinese Communist Party leadership knew that Covid-19 was both highly contagious AND spread by human to human transmission:

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/news/119575877/chinese-ambassador-hits-out-at-new-zealand-travel-ban-in-response-to-novel-coronavirus-outbreak

    If her whinging and moaning about this incredibly serious health issue didn’t constitute interfering in New Zealand’s internal affairs, I’d love to know what does.

    • Well it is a free country simonm. If you can whinge and moan so can she.

      • I’ve never knowingly attempted to export a highly contagious and deadly virus to China, Greywobbler. Had I ever done so, you might have point.

13. Hong Kong: The big mistake Hong-Konger’s made after liberation from Britain in 1997 was not to replace high-school teaching of British history for Chinese history: so that now, starry-eyed graduates think they are white. The sad reality of 10 minutes in London is all that it takes to be reminded that you’re just another a slitty-eyed China-man. I know the feeling, it took me until I was 40 to finally realise that “White people are not superior” (a far better slogan than “Black lives matter”, incidentally).
    Uyghurs: The one good thing our colonialists did was share their knowledge – so that I, for example, could be a valuable citizen of the world (and not otherwise be so narrowly constrained by the ignorance of some blind faith). It would be wrong of China not to educate its young Uyghur men and women, but to rather abandon them to fundamentalist Islamic dogma.
    South China Sea: Oh, lets not get into rights of ownership of the South China sea, else colonialist hypocrisy raises its ugly head.

    • @ Jeff – Are you Mark’s new stodgy, middle-aged white bloke alter-ego?

    • The big mistake that Hong Kongers made after Britain handed Hong Kong back to China was to stay in China.

      The South China Sea is international waters as agreed by every nation in the world, including China, when they signed up to the UN. Quite specifically, international law (that China signed up for) states that no country can claim more than 12 nm from their coast as territory and that artificial islands do not constitute territory.

      Of course, by now, we’re used to China going back on its word as it has no honour.

      • My guess is that you would have to reread the agreement between China and the UK that allowed the UK to use HK for so many decades.
        By the way there was no democracy in HK under UK rule.

        • I didn’t say that the UK rule of Hong Kong was good – merely that the people should have left when Hong Kong reverted back to China which was well advertised before hand. They stayed because they had their business and/or were making a huge amount of money there and China promised to leave things the same as the UK had them.

          The problem was that they believed a totalitarian state that doesn’t allow difference.

          • Agreed Draco.
            If the US and NED/CIA had left well alone then the extension of mainland “security” would not have been an issue.

            Yes KH could have just continued to do business as usual but not with the US intervention causing chaos.

    • Refreshing Jeff.

14. Martyn apparently doesn’t understand the basic economic concept of “Balance of Trade”. If you remove China trade overnight, you need to replace it with something or else risk either rampant inflation or a massive decrease in our standard of living – neither are tenable to the voting masses, even if you are personally comfortable with it. Jacinda is first and foremost a politician, and I’m sure deliberately presents herself in the Obama rather than the Trump mould.
    https://www.thestreet.com/politics/what-is-balance-of-trade-bot-14804888

    • It’d be gradual obviously. This level of trade affects us too much.

      The way Jacinda voiced it was a shard through the heart of every non-diplomat. She’s a great voicer.

15. We do get to choose where we live though, Mark. Any particular reason you’ve chosen to remain in New Zealand rather than move to your beloved China? Is it because you enjoy the freedoms of living in a Western democratic society too much and don’t want to lose them?

    • Simonm
      That’s an assumption and unless you have asked Martyn then its somewhat presumptuous to speak for him. Your opinion seems very unlikely.
      You don’t move country because you hold a political opinion or even one on trade surely.

16. Yesterday the tourist operators and overseas education providers were told they were not needed now it is the farmers. These 3 groups provide a large portion of the money that flows around the country and gives us spare cash to fund hospitals roads welfare police all the nice thinks that make it a great country. I do not excuse the Chinese governments human rights record but all nations have a case to answer in this field . Ask a Maori an Aboriginal or any of the first nation people in the free world.
    If we do not sell to China someone else will and it is better for all parties the door is open for a narrative to happen than to close the door .

17. “If allowing Dairy Farmers to continue selling milk powder to China is the price of our conscience, …”
    Dairy farmers don’t sell milk to China, corporateers in suits do and I doubt any of them would know what a cow tit ( Or teat if you prefer. ) looked liked.
    Dairy farmers, really mostly young families working from before dawn to after dark while covered in cow shit are merely unwitting minions to AO/NZ’s corporate elite’s greed.
    Just like the meat growers, wool growers, orchardists, etc. You know the ones? They earn our money and keep as fed and clothed.
    The growers of those aforementioned things are really only 1% of the over all agrarian enterprise and once they’ve taken their 4% to 6% given them reluctantly by scoundrels, that’s the last you’ll hear or see of the growers, unless they need to take the heat for the elites greed, of course, as in above.
    China buys our milk. So what? It’s money, isn’t it?
    What you should really be asking is why China seems to be our only market for our world class foods and wools etc.
    That’s where the real story lies. In there. In the deep dark state where the money flows in while barely a finger’s lifted. Aye Boys?
    And I could detail [that] but no one believes me. [It] has to instead come from someone who knows nothing about what went on in our agrarian history before it’s believed or more importantly is investigated.

    • China is not our only market as you and I well know CB.We have a FTA with China that needs to be renegotiated…now! There is the UK , Russia, Kazakstan, Uzbekistan, Australia and the USA who already buy our meat, wool, honey and some dairy. we do need trade teams with the balls and the brains to get better trade deals. Not grovelling twats who roll over at the first sign of intimidation. We need to process our on timber, and develop our own heavy engineering , broaden our manufacturing base and manage our currency.The use of Urea should be banned immediately.Overstocked dairy farms would be unable to produce virtually overnight and our waterways would be saved.Banking needs to deregulated. And for god’s sake bring in a financial transactions tax…..today would be a good time do that as if Labour would ever find the strength!When are we going to realise China needs our food because China cannot produce enough to feed itself.

      • +100 Shona ….well said!

        …and where is the Labour Party and NZF with the balls to do this? Now has never been a better time!

    • And I could detail [that] but no one believes me.

      Easy, provide the peer reviewed research.

    • With any and all primary products the “market” quickly adjusts to any anomaly so that the raw materials arrive at market at the absolute minimum price that is consistent with them continuing to arrive at market. It only requires a good year in about 5 when prices make primary product enterprise attractive to keep producers going for the next 4 or 5 at subsistence or below to keep the flow going because primary producers have to spend and work now in the hope that it will have been worthwhile in a years time when they get paid for the work they are doing now.
      I f most farmers could see the future at any time past or present there wouldn’t be any.
      D J S

18. no one wants this

19. I would like to know what Judith Collins’ views are on the subject. Strangely quiet – wonder why? I think we know.

20. Most of the world is heartily sick of Chinese bullying and threats. They have become as routine as night following day. Ardern had the audacity to state NZ won’t engage in a Master / Servant relationship with China which of course is exactly what the Chinese demand.

    China’s Ambassador to New Zealand, Wu Xi is a very unpleasant person with a history of attempting to bully NZ into submission and threaten us. How dare we be an independent democratic country with a perspective. I recall Wu Xi chastising NZ like a naughty child for closing our borders when Covid-19 hit. She stated it was a totally unnecessary overreaction and threatened NZ with ramifications and consequences. Just fuck off. How dare we want to keep our country and it’s people safe. Must be remembered where the origin of Covid-19 was. Nek minute, China closed it’s borders. No bleating from Wu Xi about that being a totally unnecessary overreaction. Is there a country in the world that the Chinese have not threatened with “consequences” over the last two years? With trading partners like that, who needs enemies? It should not be forgotten that the National Party is in neck deep with the Chinese and it’s safe to assume if and when they get back into Government, the task of turning New Zealand into New China by National will be completed. God help us.

    • And what threats has China made to NZ.
      What threats has the USA made to NZ
      What threats has Australia made to NZ.
      Who is threatening us if we use Huawei

21. This has been the case for at least the last 25 years and applies to both parties:

    > The Shipley government hiding Tibet protesters from Chinese diplomats in Wellington with a row of touring coaches

    > Clark having the Falung Gong adverts removed from the airport so as not to offend Chinese diplomats

    > Auckland Council removing Free Tibet posters from the city

    Whose fault is this exactly? You have to go back to Lange and his political gamesmanship with ANZUS. When NZ repudiated that agreement we ceased to be a member of the club and so lost some of the benefits of the club. eg trade access.
    The situation worsened when Clark scrapped the fighter squadrons and the Aussies retaliated by stopping the welfare benefits for kiwis over there.

    NZ has yet to learn that diplomacy is a multidimensional issue and so when we score a cheap point on one level it can blow back on another.

22. A couple of salient points. Where is this governments condemnation of the US’s abuse of Venezuela? Even the UN has condemned the US’s actions but so far I don’t recall an official outrage there? Why too are we even part of the Five Eyes? If you want to talk about abusive, human rights eroding agreements its hard to come across one any more abusive or sovereignty undermining than that. Any words of outrage on the fate of Julian Assange? (I wont hold my breath).

    From my perspective this is US toadying, the same kind that saw us sign up to the Five Eyes, waste money on crap from the military industrial complex and see international issues mostly through a filter supplied by the US.

23. Yes to Red Buzzard and Draco T Bastard,

    ‘China is so big now’ – the separate countries of this world are not able to survive with this new bad boy dictatorship overlord takeover. which have become “the Chinese problem”.’

    So it’s time for a global summit on the CHINA PROBLEM” OR WE WILL BE TAKEN OVER ONE BY ONE UNTIL WE ARE ALL CHINESE OWNED.

    HOT OF THE PRESS IAIN LESS GALLOWAY IS GONE BY LUNCH-TIME”

    • CleanGreen wrote: UNTIL WE ARE ALL CHINESE OWNED.

      They already own vast tracts of our land, of the body of Aotearoa, and no end is in sight.
      They already own the rights to empty our aquifers, in effect.
      They already own most of the invasive mono-forests.
      They already own many NZ businesses.
      They own many NZ farms.
      They own many NZ homes.
      They have their own bank here.
      They have their parliamentary influence and representation.
      It would be a relatively small step only, to owning us completely.
      …Unless or until we start saying, “No”.

    • And a UN summit on Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Venezuela and the 800+ bases the US has around the world along with the missiles pointed at and surrounding China and Russia. also forced reduction of the many thousands of nuclear warheads held openly by several nations and covertly by Israel.

      NZ should stop land sales to other than resident citizens and shift overseas owned land in NZ to resident citizens over a surrender period of say 10 years.
      China, the USA or any other off shore investor group can only take over NZ if we provide the vehicle for that to happen. Leave the door open and anyone can walk in.

      • China, the USA or any other off shore investor group can only take over NZ if we provide the vehicle for that to happen. Leave the door open and anyone can walk in

        We not only have that door wide open, we have big signs up saying,
        “Help yourselves!”
        “All you can eat!”
        “Free lunch forever!”
        and “Drink us dry!”

        To me, this is treason.

        • Agreed 100%

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