Is there even a pointing having the Greens anymore?


GRANT: “Winston calm down, you don’t even have to look him in the eyes”
WINSTON: “And Marama, I can ignore her too right”.
JACINDA: “Guys, kindness please, James is right there, he can hear us talking about him”.
JAMES: “….”

I don’t wish to be rude, but is there a point to even having the Greens?

Greens’ James Shaw says party wanted more for welfare in $50b Covid-19 Budget spend

Shaw says the Covid-19 crisis has revealed the inequalities in New Zealand’s economy, and the investments being made today start to address that.  In terms of welfare spending, the Budget doesn’t go as far as the Greens would like. There is more to be done.

…yeah, I think it takes more than thoughts and prayers James.

TDB Recommends

So let’s count up what the Greens have managed to get here.

$1.1b in ‘environmental jobs’, there’s $400m to clean up rivers  plus $2.7b for rail (which isn’t directly their own policy) gets us to say $4billion.

That’s $4billion out of a budget of $50billion?

James says he’s sad that the Government couldn’t do more for welfare, but when all you’ve managed is a measly $4b out of a $50b budget, it’s safe to say you’ve almost given up altogether really.

It’s like aiming for Mt Everest, flying to Australia and taking a selfie at Ayers Rock.

Don’t give me ‘But Winston is mean to us” as an explanation for getting next to nothing here, you’ve had 3 years to find a strategy to deal with Winston, maybe you need to look at your tactical team, I mean Andrew bloody Campbell is in Jacinda’s office, he’s previously Green, if you can’t get access to policy gains, something has gone terribly bloody wrong in the backroom!

This was an opportunity to make a mark upon the rebuild of Aotearoa, the Greens have missed that moment. They have from now until the election to wrestle something meaningful out of Labour and claim it as their own.


  1. Ha ! it seems the budget was designed in secrecy to avoid general time wasting haggling. You cant blame the Greens, Martyn,…when Labour owes its term in office to NZ First.

    Soooo,.. one could easily turn that question around and say : ” would you have preferred the ( 100% unlikelihood BTW…) of the coalition being made up of National and Labour?”

    I wonder how high the howls of lament would have reached to the sky’s in that scenario?

    Nothing would have been achieved.

    Absolutely Jack shite.

    So at least the Greens did not impede what we have got by being obtuse and obstinate. We can at least credit them that. Again , patience required, we do not yet know if the Greens will come to shine once the unorthodox economics of neo liberalism are shed, done and dusted.

    • The Greens have been running on inertia ever since since elements of there supporters, tacticians and MPs started threatening to cancel there own participation in the government. Well go ahead then you muppets. Winners always find a way.

      • Yes, – and bring back Peter Dunne while your’e at it.

        Because that’s your choices. The Maori party?… were they not another ‘Peter Dunne’ style outfit?

        • if I was to bring back people it would be Don Brash, Rodney Hyde, Murices Williamson, Michel Boag and so on and so on. My only objective is to have all the stability on my side, and all the chaos on there side. If the electorate had of listened to us in 2017 Epson, Auckland Central and most of Wellington, West Auckland would have been ours and the Greens would have had Thames.

    • coalition being made up of National and Labour?

      Isn’t that exactly what we now have, wrapped up in this budget? How would a National-Labour Coalition Budget differ? Any way at all?

      …Noting that mr bridges was perfectly happy to let it go straight through: Opposition Decides Against No-Confidence

      • I don’t think you want to go there because those differences involve melanin and gonads. There really is only a few ways of managing a capitalist economy, incompetently or competently.

        • Try noeliberal, Keynesian. Marxist , socialist or cooperative economies all work differently.
          Or try Henry George’s set up that Kirk looked at.
          Nothing is just black or white in spite of who that might suit.

          Lange with a private schooler Picot changed the education system over night but not for the better..

          • I mean it’s hardly a glorious day for capitalism or democracy a lot is due to pure dumb luck. Clearly when infections started showing up national leaders one by one started freaking out as it became abundantly clear that all the theoretical economists particularly the ones that you and I talk to on a daily at TDB has been bullshitting themselves and everyone else this whole time, John Keys the biggest bullshitter of them all. John Key literally had to convince his supporters to lose at least 20 IQ points each so that John Key could have a stupid and docile set of electorates so he could get one over them. And now the evidence is plain as day. 56 is greater> 30 folks.

      • Oh pfft, pfft pfft pfft on bulshit dollars.

        Why don’t we put it this. If The Coalition can get a super majority of 90 seats meaning The Greens and NZFirst in caucus and the Greens slips in some constitutional reforms in the coalition agreement then that would just open the door wide open to the greens but they’ve got to complain on getting a super majority and NZFirst and labour has to be shoulder to shoulder with the Greens.

        • Yes a solid majority may allow not so brave politicians to move in the right direction promptly and get a basis for a better care of NZ and its people.

  2. Good laugh

    GRANT: “Winston calm down, you don’t even have to look him in the eyes”
    WINSTON: “And Marama, I can ignore her too right”.
    JACINDA: “Guys, kindness please, James is right there, he can hear us talking about him”.
    JAMES: “….”

    • You may be able to mind read, but the Greens may have agreed with prioritising budget provisions so their usual aims are not a part of this temporary emergence situation and contingencies to deal with it.
      Begging for more just to have a green stamp showing, may be viewed as undesirable if it means a higher debt level potentially. which may be viewed as an unwanted consequence.
      The rail addition is positive and significant.

  3. Arrh nup! Wharepaku duty. They can probably takeover from the Maori Party.

    The MP have a chance to redeem themselves and get up at this election especially with the dismal performance of the 13 labour Maori MPs in this latest budget and the shite Stormtrooper right of entry Marae legislation! FFS! How did that even get put up?

    The Gweens need to spend sometime in the bush and dig a deep hole and then they can all jump in and … for a while.
    So, with them gone from parliament it could be only 4 political party’s in da house post election! Or even 3 if NZF dont make it back!

    So much for MMP and proportional representation ay?

    • lol…snigger…politicians are not politicians for nothing….they can get around any system

      Vote Winnie…he sticks his neck out and his head above the parapet

  4. Here we go again. Commentators ask what use are the Greens if they aren’t dominating the government’s policy agenda? They never explain how they think a party with 6% of the vote might dominate the agenda, nor explain how discouraging people from voting Green will help the Greens get more influence over policy and spending.

    So it’s a stupid question to start with, but if you’re determined to establish what effect the Greens have had on this budget, compare it with the Clark government’s 2002 – 2008 budgets. Those are what we could expect if the Greens weren’t involved.

  5. I’ve said it before and will say it again, The Greens are only ‘effective’ when in opposition…they talk a good game but when they have some influence over a Govt. they are bloody useless!
    When shouting and protesting from the side-lines, in opposition, they have more MSM coverage, their ‘policies’ are printed (with little or no analysis from journalists) and all is good with the world….now they are part of the Govt, supply and demand, the protests/activism and their ‘policies’ have all but gone and all they can do is blame Winston!
    Useless out of Govt and useless when part of Govt, but if they had the choice I believe they would prefer to be in constant opposition, that way at least they appear to be a party that could do things their members/voters want, looks like having some power and holding onto the bigger salaries takes precedence over any Green Policy eh!
    Hope they get below 5% in the election and only then they may regroup and become an actual environment party and not a virtue signalling party where the co-leader want to normalise the word c**t!

  6. Concerning Welfare: Unemployment Benefits/WINZ specifically ..

    The reality is; the Ideology, Voting Behavior and Lack-of-Interest of Kiwi’s has produced the current unemployment system. Now many of those same Kiwi’s are subject to it.

    “You’ve made your bed, now lie in it”. Are people already not complaining? The wage subsidy scheme for many will just prove to be a temporary, topped-up benefit.

    • Are people already not complaining?

      Yep. Mark said he had been shocked to see the realities of New Zealand’s welfare system, and had struggled to access his superannuation which had made things even harder. Social justice group ActionStation has been contacted by hundreds of people in a similar situation to Mark.

      Campaigner Ruby Powell said Covid-related job losses meant thousands of people were quickly realising how harsh New Zealand’s welfare system is. She said they struggled to get support and when they did were shocked to see how little they received on the benefit – with a single person without children receiving $210 a week.

      ODT – Hidden Unemployed – Many Denied Benefit

    • Zack Brando – temporary, topped-up benefit to some of the worst exploitive gig employers!

      The government trusts the exploiters more than the people and that is their problem.

      That and too many lawyers and accountants and communications and networkers, filling up every single government group, who tell them to acquiesce to lobbyists to avoid being sued. (Maybe what happened with the Chinese water given away by the stupid Greens???? who knows!)

      Our government is obsessed with lawyers, accountants and communications to the point that someone told me the government has set up an Information Technology Digital group for NZ – but out of 7 people 2 are lawyers, 1 accountant, 1 in comms part of the CHCH reconstruction screw up, 1 refugee whose probably the only one with a bit of tech experience, 1 ex-scientist, strategist, business developer and 1 Māori-led design and animation expertmarketer.

      Ok then, so looks like zero tech qualifications or any big tech experience, in the entire group and all on the absolute peripheral of tech, but are great at self marketing then!

      The problem with that, is they come up with bogus stuff on paper that will never work and then on the backs of that go onto more government tech groups as experts in tech without being qualified….. and the same mistakes are constantly being repeated.

      Great to be diverse but what sort of advice can you get out of people who have no technical qualifications or deep technical experience advising the government of what, diversity instead of digital standards??? No wonder nothing in government tech works!

      Tech is now NZ’s third biggest export, you kinda feel they are keen to fuck that one up too by being seen to do something without too much thought into the risks of impractical or poor advice…

      This is on the back of their failed government CTO who with much time and expense was head hunted by a marketing recruitment agency, given the job, before withdrawing it, maybe when someone noticed he had never been a CTO or have any technical qualifications either… marketing technology or sales is a different role from a CTO, as is, being a lawyer or accountant, but the government neoliberals and woke officials seemingly think they are the same (or maybe they are expected to pick up deep technical experience overnight on google, who knows? We have fake news, now we have flaky advisory bodies, picked for diversity (and maybe low costs) than skills???)

      • “water given away by the stupid Greens”
        Was that a green policy or was it a green party member as minister signing off a caucus decision.

        • There were times when it was clearly Eugenie’s call and she chose to quietly pull the plug, always under the suggestion that they’re “Just following orders”. Who else claimed to be “Just following orders” back in history, and how much grief and devastation did they cause. NOT good enough. Shockingly bad. Some things are unforgivable.

          • I agree Kheala that the minister should never have signed off water piracy no matter who or what they were paid off stage.
            My doubt is that the cabinet was against it.
            If their minister signed then cabinet is responsible or they should have disciplined a rogue minister.
            Many Chinese companies have deep pockets.

  7. Then allow me to be rude for you?
    ” I don’t wish to be rude, but is there a point to even having the Greens?”
    Fuck them. They had their chance and they blew it and they blew it deliberately, in my opinion.
    While dirty farming runs riot over proper farming the Greens went yellow and sat on their little white hands and fucked it up.
    While jonky was tugging a woman’s hair at her work place just to humiliate her for his shits and giggles he got clean away with it. Or when winnie got caught being ‘confused’ about his superannuation entitlements and got clean away with it, or when little billy english the double dipping Dipton dribbler got caught out double dipping and got clean away with it, The Greens sacked their best bet in Metiria Turei because she rented out a room to help out while she educated her single parent self after fuckless phil now mayor of Auckland, then minister of education helped horse face palmer fuck youth over by increasing tertiary education costs by over 900%.
    And now? Greens? Hello? You fucking morons! Can you read?
    In these terrible times of looming starvation and a new dawn in hi tech feudalism you completely ignored our primary industry agrarian culture who are eventually going to save our skins. Again.
    Read this dip shits.
    “Regenerative agriculture: How a dairy farmer learned to trust his instincts”
    Chloe Swarbrick ignored my advice drawn down from years of experience to instead go on to be remembered only for coining the belittling phrase ” OK Boomer” . Great work @ Chloe Swarbrick. You made many older people uncomfortable with their age while you ignored our primary industry in its death throws. Great stuff.
    Now, back to the national party and those awesome polluted waterways and swindled export earned revenues.
    Farmers? Yes, you ! This is the best advice you’ll get ever.
    Form a Union. Compromised of bonafide compolsory memberships. A Union that’s comprised of all your down stream service industry providers. That means truck drivers, railway workers, water siders, shearers, freezing workers, etc not to mention the importance of taxes derived from agrarian export revenues being returned back into our country to enable AO/NZ to run well and prosper.
    You Greens had the very utmost important job to do and you fucked it up. Your pathetic, limp wristed, bongo drumming, man bunnery has failed all AO/NZ who isn’t rendered powerless within the debt ridden miasma of our weak and parasitised, greedy, selfish, capitalist politic.

    • Hey countryboy, I’m a farmer. Been organic certified for over a decade, been doing what is now called “regenerative farming” since the old days when it was just good sustainable farming. I’ve personally planted over 250,000 trees, and retired 60ha back into permanent native bush reserve. I don’t use soluble fertilisers, I’ve got my waterways fenced off and planted. I feel like I should be one of the good guys. But if Green Party policies get implemented I’ll probably be one of the first to go broke, they think they support good farming, but in reality every suggestion they’ve come up with lumps all farmers into the bad category, and will kill off us small sustainable-focused farmers far faster than the big boys who are happy to rape the environment for a buck.

      For me it really hit hard with the firearms law change. I bought a semi auto rifle because the feral goats and deer were starting to kill all my tree planting work, and the bush reserve was disappearing. I sent emails to all the relevant MPs and parties expressing my concerns about the law change and experiences and pointing out the essential need to access appropriate pest control rifles (pest control is NOT hunting and requires different tools for a very different purpose!). Greens were the only party who did not bother to reply. Arrogant bastards too immersed in their own self-righteous bullshit to deign to talk to the peasants.

      So now its a big fuck you to the greens from me. I wanted to expand my bush reserve to about 80ha, no point at all if all it does is feed feral deer. In fact I’m pulling out of allowing native regeneration, I might as well put some cows in their and make money instead of feed feral deer (hope this is what you want NZ Govt). My experience is 100% sums up the greens, they have some great ideas, but no practical idea how to achieve them. Worse, they come up with counter ideas that destroy their good ideas. They want us to plant trees? Here’s the great idea, remove all pest control rifles first and make sure all your tree planting fails!!!! Useless dickhead imbeciles doesn’t even begin to describe them. The old Greens were environmental, these clowns are just there to fill up the parliaments special needs quota.

      • +100000 Ben Waimata – in particular

        “I feel like I should be one of the good guys. But if Green Party policies get implemented I’ll probably be one of the first to go broke, they think they support good farming, but in reality every suggestion they’ve come up with lumps all farmers into the bad category, and will kill off us small sustainable-focused farmers far faster than the big boys who are happy to rape the environment for a buck.”

        “My experience is 100% sums up the greens, they have some great ideas, but no practical idea how to achieve them. Worse, they come up with counter ideas that destroy their good ideas.”

      • Ben do what you think is right for the land and what grows on it while farming around that.
        I don’t get your drift with the semi auto.
        “remove all pest control rifles”

        Hey semi autos don’t kill deer better than pump action. lever action or bolt action rifles, which have been used extensively in wiping out deer and goats on many farms.

        Make every shot count

    • CB
      Farmers union ? Including farmer corporates ?
      “That means truck drivers, railway workers, water siders, shearers, freezing workers,”

      The farmers would have them working for nothing while they pay off their ridiculous mortgages they should have never walked into.

  8. I want to support the Greens, but they just make it so hard!

    I’ll probably have to vote for them anyway, because if you believe in the environment, every party is even worse, aka Labour and NZ First as well as Natz and ACT are hell bent on destroying the environment while putting the county into massive debt to aid big and small polluters, and don’t believe in the environment either!

    What can you do? This is my view of the budget. I accidentally put in into Chris Trotter’s post, but really it applies to the Greens in terms of aiding pollution, just as the promotion of he gig economy and low wages does not really seem like ‘old’ Labour to me, as Chris advocates.

    NZ, the polluters and gig economy paradise to import in poverty to out compete NZ’s poorest!

    The budget is more roads, roads, roads, billions for roads and road users… it seems

    Roads that might not really work, be on time or budget, or even hire NZ workers, but who cares, roads, roads, roads ,

    Helping Uber drivers and the gig economy for tax avoidance multinationals is a priority and of course roads, roads, roads,

    To the government the retail, cafe workers and big businesses like Harvey Norman, seem to be the worst off in NZ and deserving of all the support?

    I guess those without much voice or lobbyists can’t really compete.

    Child who has lived in van has message for PM
    (Hopefully this poor kid has a roof over her head now and can concentrate on her studies, but what about the 16,000+ waiting for a state house?

    Importing in poverty workers, does not help this girl or her family with more and more competing in NZ for low wage ghost job opportunities and social housing).

    Auckland teen was kidnapped and tortured, court hears

    Another sad story of another teenager in care that in stead of being protected and rehabilitated ends up in prison for a decade over a fake rape allegation from another ‘troubled’ youth.

    82 Southland disabled workers face losing jobs over cost cuts

    Nothing for the arts from what I can see in the budget, keep polluting everyone and don’t actually support a well rounded society in NZ from the COL government!

    BTW for the neoliberals one of the richest teens in the world, is through the arts but I guess ‘trade work’ putting down concrete and kerbs for $20 p/h for roads, roads, roads, is the only NZ vision allowed for people here now.,

    Give those big business lobbyists a bonus (sarcasm) they have totally incapsulated this government’s thinking in very niche directions of massive corporate support for roads and construction or low wage sunset industry, aka just like the Natz, and the money certainly aint being shared out to NZ citizens, higher wages, growth industries or enlightenment here.

    • Winston out hustled everyone to get a cannabis referendum, Andrew Little wrote the bill and Chloe said oh Kia ora, I’ll take that.

      • @Sam, funny thought, (don’t know if true or not, but you can imagine it) but shouldn’t it be “Kia ora, I’ll take that. Ok Boomers?”

        • Depends of Chloe can do a seemore and Shepard it across the line. If the referendum comes back no then sad one really.

  9. Before the election? No chance. The Greens are just about dead in the water, imo.

    But there are at least a couple of bright lights on the horizon if they’re given a chance. One is Ricardo Mendez from Auckland Action Against Poverty. He is standing for Maungakiekie, One Tree Hill, and he has a chance of winning that seat. …If Labour allowed him to do so, he would take it out.

    The other bright light is Luke Wijohn. He is a true Climate activist, which is exactly what we most need, now and into the future. He represents the Youth vote of Aotearoa.

    However the Greens have chosen to run him agains Jacinda. Why are they doing that? He will be effectively ‘disappeared’. He should be given a chance to show his drawing power, to show his true worth.

    • Just to add, re: Maungakiekie, One Tree Hill: If Labour insist on dividing the vote of the wider left for this seat, they will be repeating their mistake of the last election and likely again gift it to National. (I can link to the results of the last election to show this, if need be.)

    • +1 Greywarbler – good point!

      Although I think the way the money has been allocated that is the bone of contention, not the sum.

  10. The Greens are being credited with the “Pest Control” initiative, which has a vast budget allocation of funds of around 200 million dollars. Just to note, this originated under Mr Key’s National Govt: Beehive Release – PM John Key 26/7/2016 – NZ to be Predator Free by 2050

    I note this in part because I consider it to be a diversion of funds and of our awareness, away from the more urgent and more serious needs of Aotearoa, of the environment, and of Climate Change.

    • Kheala,

      without pest control the environment suffers big time, and native biodiversity disappears because the native ecology has no mechanism to survive introduced pests. Without pest control we end up with no new forests, and any climate change mitigation requires forests either for direct carbon storage or for biomass for energy needs. Environmental mitigation such as riparian buffer plantings require trees/shrubs to stop sediment entering the waterways, which requires pest control to achieve establishment. Planting anything in areas with high numbers of feral deer, goats, pigs, wallabies, hares, rabbits, possums is just a waste of time. Possibly you did not think your statement through carefully before posting, otherwise can you explain why you think pest control is not related to environmental and climate change issues?

      • can you explain why you think pest control is not related to environmental and climate change issues?

        Sure. That is not what I wrote, and not what I meant. Read it again.

        • Well call me a dumb bugger but it still reads that way to me. Not trying to start an argument, I genuinely don’t follow you. Unless you are suggesting it is bad idea because it was originally a National idea? Are you being pedantic about me saying ‘related to’? I don’t understand, don’t bother to explain if you don’t want to. Pest control is a big deal to me in my situation, I appreciate people have other views.

          • Ben I admire your approach to restoring the soil and native plants. Its a really positive encouragement to hear others taking action on their land in spite of pests.
            Many farmers bitch about cleaning up streams and letting gullies and low lying areas revert to wetlands but the total ecology on land is not for the money. They don’t stop to admire the beauty and the living things beyond what can be turned into money.
            Sure you have to live but its what you live for that also counts.
            It sounds as though your farm backs onto bush or scrublands . Have you tried inviting locals in to help with the larger pests as there could be tucker in it for them.

    • +1 Kheala

      It’s not the sum that the environment is getting in NZ that is the biggest issue, it is how it’s being spent on the same industries and people – not reducing pollution of the biggest polluters and improving the environment in a fair and practical way, but money to groups at the periphery of the environment, that are the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff.

      What is the point of spending money of pest control when everywhere else you are encouraging more rats and pollution and preserving the water when you are putting landfill in flood areas that could wipe out natives and pollute the Kaipara harbour, increase trucks and traffic and congestion and air pollution, when the onus should be on less waste going into landfill.

      Of course the company wants to encourage more tipping – they are profiting from it! And the Greens just gave permission for the Chinese waste management company to buy the land!

      Canny China, they export a lot of the junk that goes to landfill within a short period of time that is wiping out local business and jobs, then they buy up waste management companies and profit from the pollution they import into NZ while saying they are creating jobs in exchange for the free water… maybe stop and heavily tax imported goods that end up in landfill within short periods of time will be a start!

      Auckland’s proposed Dome Valley landfill could spark rahui

    • The Greens voting for the police ‘warrantless searches’ really shows up their hypocrisy!
      Where is Golritz when unbounded police powers are enshrined into law?….ohhh wait she voted for it!
      THIS is what National should hammer the Greens into under 5%
      I aware with bated breath Hagar’s response…..tick tock..tick..tock

      • Judging by the amount of time the Greens MP’s appear in the UK ‘The Guardian’ articles, the plan seems to be for some of them to move onto a cushy UN committee job, post destroying the Green movement in this country.

      • The Green get hammered if they depart from climate or environment matters and if they stick to just environment matters then they get hammered for being a one issue party,
        All parties have responsibility for the environment and welfare of the people.

  11. Repy to Ben Waimata.

    Ben, my comment was about the state of the NZ Green Party today, considering the question that is the title of this page. Where are the NZ Greens at, now in 2020? What are they about? Where are they going? What is their potential and actual relevance, particularly in light of the newly released budget.

    What does it say about the Greens that the centrepiece of their future, the recipient of vast amounts of funding, is a policy that originated from Mr Key and the National Party. (Yet the Greens seem to be claiming it as their own.) That’s the best that they have? Now in 2020, while we are experiencing the first crashing waves of Climate Change on our shores, an unprecedented drought across the North Island in particular. Which will likely be followed by devastating floods at some point. Where have they begun to address any of this?

    I’m not getting into a discussion on the various aspects of pest/ predator control as such. It is just a question of the NZ Greens’ priorities, now and into the future. Who are they, now in 2020? What do they stand for? Where are they going?

    • johnky’s predator announcement was a feel good PR stunt. Don’t fall for it
      The words mean very little.

  12. Martin- don’t be fool hardy about the railway investment – that’s all NZ First’s doing alone.

    Greens wanted some trams and highspeed train to Timaru.

    Winston and Shane control Kiwirail and probably are the best negotiators in Govt.

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