A MURDEROUS, ANTISEMITIC, terrorist attack, live-streamed, in chilling imitation of the Christchurch Massacres, has shocked and dismayed the German nation. Proof, if any was needed, that strict legal prohibitions against the iconography and language of far-right extremism confers no special protection against the deadly designs of its adherents. No country is more assiduous in banning hate speech and Nazi paraphernalia than the German Republic, and yet, the impulse to murder Jews and Muslims has not been thwarted.
Sadly, that is not the lesson which the Censorious Left has been inclined to draw from this latest tragedy. Almost immediately, sophomoric statements appeared on social-media deploying the horror of the attack against the defenders of free speech. These latter were accused of supporting the right of homicidal Nazis to debate their views in the marketplace of ideas. Perhaps intuiting that this accusation was unlikely to be taken seriously, the Censorious Left opted to advance the (marginally) more moderate suggestion that while the philosophies of the Right may not in-and-of-themselves be objectionable, exposing vulnerable individuals to their malign influence under the rubric of free speech would only end with homicidal Nazis shooting up synagogues and mosques.
But, this line of argument leaves the Left as exposed to censorship as the Right. If granting right-wingers a platform is a bad idea because giving free rein to right-wing ideas will only end in murder, massacre and genocide, then granting platforms to the Left must also be forbidden. If the logical terminus of right-wing thought is Auschwitz, then the logical terminus of left-wing thought must be the Gulag. For every Babi Yar advanced by the anti-Nazis, the anti-Communists can produce a Katyn Forest. Clearly, the only sensible solution, if society is to be kept safe from all forms of ideological extremism, is to stop talking about politics altogether!
Except, of course, the Censorious Left has no intention of allowing itself to be silenced. That much was made clear by the 1,300 academic staff and students of the University of Auckland who signed the Open Letter condemning their own Vice-Chancellor’s defence of free speech on campus. As the anonymous author/s of the letter put it:
“If these posters [pasted-up by the ‘radical nationalist’ group calling itself Action Zealandia] constitute ‘free speech’, the same can be said of the actions of individuals who remove those that they encounter.”
Clearly, the person/s who wrote those words is no historian. No one having the slightest acquaintance with modern history would have exposed themselves so completely to the obvious rejoinder that their definition of free speech, if accepted, must render its extinction inevitable. Was it not the very Nazis the Censorious Left purports to condemn who bequeathed the world what is surely the most compelling depiction of intolerance, intellectual aggression and censorship ever recorded on film?
The Säuberung (cleansing by fire) was the work of the German Student Union which, on 10 May 1933, under the watchful eye of the Reichminister for Propaganda, Joseph Goebbels, consigned 25,000 books to the flames in a ritual exorcism of “un-German thought”. Into the bonfire illuminating the square in front of the Berlin Opera House, hundreds of radical nationalist students hurled the works of Jewish, Socialist and Communist authors. As the burning books cast their grotesque shadows over the crowd, horrified foreign journalists recalled the words of the nineteenth century German poet, Heinrich Heine: “Where they burn books, they will too in the end burn people.”
Not that the Censorious Left possesses the slightest grounds for objecting to this infamous historical spectacle. After all, those German students were simply behaving in the way recommended by the author/s of the Open Letter to Vice-Chancellor McCutcheon 86 years later. What else was the Säuberungbut the ritual obliteration of material considered by the staff and students of Germany’s universities to be offensive and harmful to the wellbeing of the German volk? In confronting this “hate speech”, they were guilty of nothing more than exercising – exuberantly and dramatically – their right of free speech!
Perhaps if the Censorious Left knew a little bit more about the tactics of the historical movement they so loudly condemn they would be less inclined to imitate it. Those so outraged by the presence in Auckland of right-wing provocateurs Cheryl Southern and Stefan Molyneux that they were willing to frighten the owners of prospective venues for their public lecture into refusing them access, were clearly ignorant of the fate of the classic anti-war film, All Quiet on the Western Front.
At the film’s Berlin premiere in December 1930, Nazi stormtroopers harangued and jostled the audience as they entered the cinema, released stink-bombs in the auditorium and called-in real bomb threats. Goebbels pledged to do the same in cinemas all over Germany if the film – which the Nazis declared anti-German and offensive to all Great War veterans – was not withdrawn immediately. Terrified cinema-owners, fearful that people and property would be harmed, mostly succumbed to the “thug’s veto”. All Quiet on the Western Front was not scheduled again for general release in Germany until after World War II.
This is how Nazis exercise their freedom of speech.
Perhaps the Censorious Left should heed the advice given by the German philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche:
“He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you.”
You just want to go to war with everyone don’t you.
As I was saying what do we need to do to save the cancerous-left from itself? In Greek mythology they would be the hero who roles the bolder up the hill and when they get to the top the bolder rolls down and they start over an infinite number of times.
So fascism in economics is when the government is forced to sustain private capital. Y’know private capital left to themselves is falling apart correct? At least in 2008 it did. The government is called in when beneficiaries need bashing, victims of student visa scams need to be hurried out of the country, people need to get laid off, and unions need to be marginalized. That’s what happened in 1929 and that’s what happened 40 years ago when the strong men could emerge and have an audience ect.
The fascists solution is to bring in the government to support private capitalists enterprises. It is sometimes referred to as the dreaded Private-Public-Partnership which is the merging of the government and capital into fascism. I know it, Iv always known it. That is why I am a free-speech absolutest. So the government is coming in and doing for private capital what it can not do for itself. The government is rearranging foreign trade so domestic capitalists have an easier time selling abroad and blocking imports from selling to our own say by blocking oil and gas exploration or foreign investors and deregulates. That’s a clever way of saying the regulations that are costly to capitalists are removed and the regulations the help capitalists are enhanced. That’s what fascist economics is all about. It’s all about saving capitalism.
So we can believe in our family, friends and neighbours. But we can not believe in ideology, a political party or an iconic figure. Being independent of these strong men is a double edged sword. Having an independent-foreign-policy would mean that we New Zealanders build and manufacture our own military equipment and uniforms and so on so we are not relent on the economic fortunes from abroad. Not for the defence of private capital but for the defence of the people. That is truly anti-fascist.
Far too wise and reasonable an article to have any effect on the Censorious Left.
Unfortunately Twitter outrage, cancel culture, and no-platforming is far more emotionally rewarding than letting other views be heard.
We should not forget that the New Zealand state and its Prime Minister are at the forefront of the drive to “protect” us from knowledge of the things that threaten our safety and well-being.
Every synagogue in Germany has access to Brenton Tarrant’s video of the Al Noor massacre and while not every member of a congregation would choose to view it, it has been studied so that Jewish people can know how best to thwart such attacks in future.
Ms Ardern will not allow such a privilege to her own people. She insists that knowledge of how to deal with fascist violence should remain the prerogative of those who have demonstrated total disinterest in combating fascism – her security agencies and police force.
So if we were to submit the demands of her Chief Censor we would be literally opening the door to further atrocities.
Fortunately most New Zealanders have the sense to rely on their own intelligence, do their own research and provide for their own security.
Despite its best efforts, the “censorious left” of the Labour Party will not make us defenceless in the face of fascism.
I have researched and to a limited extent studied the little knob headed ANZAC white subpremacist Christchuch killer …. and the one thing I have not had to do was watch his self thrilling live streamed snuff video.
There is no magic or mystery to the mechanics and actions of his attack, against unarmed defenseless civilians with large caliber, large magazine, semi auto Military styled weapons…. aim then fire is what he did, over and over …. I know that and I did not need to watch his sick video.
Defenses against such attacks starts with removing such mass murder weapons from those who have no justification for their possession…. collectors or gun lovers does not cut the mustard.
Second would be …..Stop spreading over-hyped fears and sterotypes …. like the ones Andrew does lower in this very comments thread … … other examples of Andrew talk would be “Jihadi Brides”, ” Mass waves of refugee boat people” , ” enforced sharia law ” …. or even ” Iwi / Kiwi” …. etc etc.
On sight defenses against heavily armed people approaching religious places of worship…… would rely on entrance designs, surveillance , preparation drills … and all this balanced against the resources and efforts that should or even need to be expended .. against this particular threat probability.
I do agree that the Government and others went into censorship over-reach in some areas though … for instance by blocking access to a site which hosts some anti-war and other videos of mine …
Stefan Molyneux is a idiotic Genocide denier who gives a once sided twist to history … No doubt he would have given us a Don Brash / john Key version of our own history…. perhaps Don Brash is his dad 😉
White supremacist racists find comfort in his white washing …. after all, the old false history Stefan retells …. did make us look great.
Anyway, I’d rather see him ridiculed and debunked than banned … But I would not let him use council halls or theaters either … He’s a flashed up version of our own local provocateur …. Kyle Chapman of the New Zealand National Front.
Examples of Stefans bullshitting …..
https://youtu.be/Xd_nVCWPgiA
https://youtu.be/yxqo_NeVd44
Did don brash and his loony mates from hobson pledge tell stifffarm that we are one people or is this groups vile and spew only for Nzders
My argument has always been the same and I have had a few exchange with pro censorship advocates. If you limit free speech how can you know what someone is thinking, let alone have the opportunity to change their mind? Furthermore telling someone they can’t have a certain view is a great way of ensuring they hold it closer and treat it as ever more inviolable.
A “conflation fest” of a post! Perhaps in retrospect the writer is wondering whether the “Free Speech Coalition” should have been granted a wide berth…
Many institutionally employed NZ Academics brains were seemingly turned to mush years ago by the effects of neo liberalism being applied to Tertiary Education. The end of civilisation is not going to happen at Auckland Uni.
Re Molyneux and Southern–no problem with them talking in NZ, however ghastly I might regard them. They ironically got caught out by neo liberal edicts and resulting Supercity technicalities over Council venue hiring. But they proved to be a pair of “Nancies” really by not hiring a truck and portable sound system and speaking regardless. No bottle. Plus they seem to like to monetise every burp those two.
At the end of the day I don’t like Nazis, or granting them a ratepayers platform, one little bit. A hundred free speech appeals like Chris’ won’t sway me on that; particularly when NZs own security agencies paid little heed to NZ white power proponents.
The German live stream showed if anything the prescience of our Prime Minister with the “Christchurch Call”.
As you might have gleaned from the posting, Tiger, I don’t much care for Nazis myself. That’s why I get so angry when I see people who consider themselves “left-wing” imitating their tactics.
As Orwell so brilliantly concluded his novella “Animal Farm”:
“The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”
Great post Chris – you touched on several critically important points.
Just a few additional thoughts:
This atrocity goes against the general trend. It is an outlier event. Unreported by the press because it doesn’t fit their narrative, there have been thousands of deadly attacks on Jews by Muslims in Europe. There has been a mass migration of Jews out of Paris in recent years, it is so bad. Unreported by British press, Jews in Birmingham and London are getting out because of this ongoing threat and many are moving to Manchester where there is a bigger Jewish community and self-defence is more of an option. The police stand idly by, tied up in PC dogma.
Of the two well publicized recent mass shootings in the USA, the Texas one was by an eco-fascist (killing Latinos because Green radicals say we’re overpopulated) and the one in Ohio was an Antifa member. Although the vast majority of mass shootings in the US have nothing to do with politics: Drug wars and mental health dominate.
Could the “Censorious Left” you reference have devalued the term ‘fascist’ and unwittingly enabled these people? When they call everyone from Ben Shapiro (Orthodox Jew) to our Don Brash fascists, both of which offer valuable (and non-fascist) commentary, have they made us all prey to *real* fascism? The reverse was true in the lead up to WW2. Many well-intentioned people who were against fascism fell prey to Stalin’s propaganda and either became spies in the UK or apologists for Stalin’s regime.
One vitally important point to note: The recent shooting in Halle Germany was done entirely with homemade guns! He was armed with two homemade sub-machine guns, two homemade shotguns and a bag full of homemade bombs. It is a miracle that more people weren’t killed! Jacinda take note: banning firearms achieves little.
Oh hell. Ben Shapiro and Don zbrash won’t be getting a free pass from me.
Having Andrew say ‘ Great post chris ‘ … should give Trotts the shits.
Andrew the right wing pro zionist racist makes Stefan molyox look smart……
For starters,. How much hand gun crime and violence takes place in NZ Andy ?? … what are our hand gun laws ??? …
Perhaps our near total lack of handgun crime…. is related to our gun laws which have effectively been a ban on them?.
Another example Andrew is …. “Mass shooting events are a prime opportunity for far-right trolls to push their own political agendas — and this time it had to do with antifa and Charlottesville ” … ” Unfortunately, this often results in the spread of inaccurate information intended to mislead or confuse readers”
Regarding Charlottesville:
“the alleged shooter had posted a manifesto on 8chan prior to the attack, referencing his desire to imitate the Christchurch massacre as well as his motivation to curb the Latino “invasion” into Texas. Despite the first few signs that the shooter was motivated at least in large part by white-supremacist beliefs,” ….. ie ” The Great Replacement ” sickness Andy … zionists have it too.
Also American Anti-fascists have zero mass killings to date … unlike the usa hard right https://youtu.be/mTPhOAeip4s
Andrew is always giving us false equivalence as to the violence and actions https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/instagram-remove-cartoon-about-milkshaking-guns-antifa-869691/
The lead up to world war II was helped along by right wing American Fascists supporting the Nazis https://www.globalresearch.ca/american-banks-funded-the-nazis/31983
” George Bush’s grandfather [and George H.W. Bush’s father, and George W. Bush’s grandfather], the late US senator Prescott Bush, was a director and shareholder of companies that profited from their involvement with the financial backers of Nazi Germany.”
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Not being able to use a town hall or council venue is not censorship Andrew …..Your place or don brashs could be a venue for Stef Moly and Sourthng …. or the Orewa rotary club perhaps?…. Hire one from your famed private sector.
Finally …Is it true that don brash …. and others from the false flag “taxpayers union” …. have fronted and spent around $200,000 fighting for racists rights to council venues ??
I wonder why the old proven right wing bald faced liar, racist and Cheater would do that ???
Cheaters are probably like leopards ,,,,, never change their spots https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7h_wjec5KI
Reason: I’ve read your comment carefully – as I always do if I’m intending to respond – but I’m having a bit of trouble following it.
I assume that it’s a response to Andrew’s comment above, but if that’s so, I can’t quite see how some of it relates.
You quote this: ““Mass shooting events are a prime opportunity for far-right trolls to push their own political agendas — and this time it had to do with antifa and Charlottesville ” … ” Unfortunately, this often results in the spread of inaccurate information intended to mislead or confuse readers”” Where does this come from? It’s useful to know its provenance.
You made this comment:
“Regarding Charlottesville:
“the alleged shooter had posted a manifesto on 8chan prior to the attack, referencing his desire to imitate the Christchurch massacre as well as his motivation to curb the Latino “invasion” into Texas. Despite the first few signs that the shooter was motivated at least in large part by white-supremacist beliefs,” ….. ie ” The Great Replacement ” sickness Andy … zionists have it too.”
Where did this come from and how does it relate to what Andrew wrote? Moreover, it doesn’t appear to be about Charlottesville at all. I watched a good deal of (without commentary) film footage of the Charlottesville protests. What I saw didn’t resemble in any way what you’ve quoted here.
“Also American Anti-fascists have zero mass killings to date…”
Andrew has pointed out that you’re incorrect. And – with regard to left-wing violence in the US, over a lot of the years since WW2, I recommend that you read the following:
http://archive.is/WPrYb
I remember most of these events. Except, of course, those occurring before 1950 (I was too young to know about them at that stage). They shock me now; not least because I wasn’t as shocked by them at the time as I ought to have been, though I ascribe that to the zeitgeist of the time, and the nature of the contemporary reportage.
“Not being able to use a town hall or council venue is not censorship…”
It is, you know. It’s also known as “deplatforming”, I believe. It may be that you applaud the reasons for it, but it doesn’t at all follow that it’s not censorship.
D’Esterre …. Go read Andrews post again …. also which El Paso massacre are you referring too … or which version?…. If I watched the news with the sound off ( no commentary ) ..,. I might miss information.
Bits of his manifesto are quoted here …
https://youtu.be/dMllOMt_WBI
Here’s a Link for the quotes and info you’ve never heard of …
https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/el-paso-dayton-shooting-fake-news-antifa-charlottesville-867499/
“In the wake of reports indicating that the alleged El Paso shooter was a Trump supporter whose manifesto made reference to far-right rhetoric about immigration, right-wing pundits immediately tried to distance themselves from the alleged shooter, blaming the shooting on everything from violent video games to drag queens.
It wasn’t particularly surprising that many on the far right threw their weight behind one particular rumor: that antifa, or far-left antifascists, were responsible for the attacks. And this happened via a pattern of expertly orchestrated misinformation campaigns on the right that extremism researchers say are sadly par for the course following mass shooting attacks.”.
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i think Andrew misrepresents things
https://youtu.be/kfUf1soIsrA
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Also I personally know and are close to PI people , ( the very targets of racists like moronox & Sourthng) , who would prefer racist, genocide deniers & extreme right wing refugee drowners …were not given council support to spread their lies and hate…..
……How about ‘David Irving, the discredited British historian and Nazi apologist,’ … would you be sweet with him hiring a council venue ?? . David Irving.
As Tiger wrote in this thread ….
“Re Molyneux and Southern–no problem with them talking in NZ, however ghastly I might regard them. They ironically got caught out by neo liberal edicts and resulting Supercity technicalities over Council venue hiring. But they proved to be a pair of “Nancies” really by not hiring a truck and portable sound system and speaking regardless. No bottle. Plus they seem to like to monetise every burp those two.”
So council Non support is not censorship in my world ……
“deplatforming” ….. the bulk of which would be the purges conducted against mainly left wing commentators on You Tube, facebook etc…………..
ie The left is far more censored than even the extreme right …..
I repeat ‘ the left is far more censored than even the extreme right ‘
ie ….I could direct you to dozens of ” Great Replacement ” fan videos on Youtube …. including ones quoting mass killers.
“Facebook Taps Militarist Think Tank Atlantic Council to Police its Content
https://youtu.be/ZJUjSBXU5iY
Reason: “also which El Paso massacre are you referring too … or which version?”
And here you go again: you’re doing to me what you did to Andrew. I made no mention of El Paso. Where did you get that from? It suggests to me that you read other people’s comments a great deal less carefully than you should.
“…. If I watched the news with the sound off ( no commentary ) ..,. I might miss information.””
And here we go yet again; I didn’t say that I watched the news with the sound off. Christ….surely nobody expects to get anything useful by way of information from the news! I don’t bother with that stuff. Hat tip: there are web-based news organisations which do us the honour of assuming that we have a functioning intelligence. They film protests and the like WITHOUT COMMENTARY. Hunt around on the internet: you’ll find them. If you watch that crap with voice-overs, you get the reporter’s – and that of the outlet for which they report – version of what happened. Pretty much useless, if one wants to know what’s actually happened.
“So council Non support is not censorship in my world”
Not in your world, maybe, but in everyone else’s it is. And I’m guessing that you won’t see it as censorship, right up until it happens to you, or to someone with whose views you agree.
““deplatforming” ….. the bulk of which would be the purges conducted against mainly left wing commentators on You Tube, facebook etc”
Like Jim Flynn, you mean? I’ll link this again.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/books/116443386/the-complicated-issue-of-hate
“I repeat ‘ the left is far more censored than even the extreme right ‘”
Evidently not in the US. Or here, come to that. Go reread the link Andrew posted to the NYP story about Connor Betts.
Andrew: “Could the “Censorious Left” you reference have devalued the term ‘fascist’ and unwittingly enabled these people? When they call everyone from Ben Shapiro (Orthodox Jew) to our Don Brash fascists, both of which offer valuable (and non-fascist) commentary, have they made us all prey to *real* fascism?”
I think that you have a point here. It’s a sort of reductio ad absurdum, screaming the “fascism” accusation at everybody with whose views they disagree.
I’m an old lefty; I’m embarrassed and angry at the antics of what Chris characterises as the “Censorious Left”. It serves only to make the rest of us less safe, I suspect. I’m on Jim Flynn’s side in this:
https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/books/116443386/the-complicated-issue-of-hate
Speaking of deplatforming…… Jim Flynn, of all people! Christ…..what is the world coming to?
A few quick corrections:
The Dayton Ohio shooter was in fact an Antifa member:
https://nypost.com/2019/08/06/dayton-shooter-may-be-antifas-first-mass-killer/
And let’s not forget that in 2017 a Bernie Sanders supporter fired 60 rounds from a rifle at Republican Congressmen playing baseball and wounded several. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Congressional_baseball_shooting
So the left are hardly blameless. Both extremes are wrong.
Regarding handguns. Yes indeed handguns in the US dominate when it comes to shootings and yes I agree we should limit access to handguns, just as we already do. No argument there! However the reason for the shootings is more often than not related to gangs and drugs: Sadly in the USA predominantly black people are shooting other black people. Despite being a minority of only about 15% of the population, they are the majority of victims.
Chris’s point about banning people from speaking in public venues was well made, so I won’t add to that. However I’m still not sure why you think Brash is a racist. To my mind he is the ultimate anti-racist.
The rock star economy was a huge lie. The rock star economy was sold as a recovery from the 2008 melt down. The rockstar has become a daily obscenity for right wingers to roll out and lie about. The mass of people are in very bed shape economically. The gap between most people on the one hand and the tinny number of very wealthy people on the other hand is also becoming a daily obscenity in everyone’s face. So what ever Don Brash meant by one law for all, treaty gravy train, and preferential Māori treatment, he, brash was only looking at one side of the equation. Everyone asks is this the best Brash can do and as we discover that there is this whole other culture out there we discover that no, this is not the best Donald Brash can do.
…. So, when andrew writes ” quick corrections” …. we should read it as “more bullshit”
Andy …. your biased link uses the word “Probably” in its title ….. and shows no proof of any membership with anti-fascist groups …. But YOU state it as fact….. put a link up to their later up to date articles ….showing your proof… or its bullshit.
Ben Shapiro is a dangerous wanker … https://youtu.be/nAaZvlYc71w
Regarding Handguns … Andy, you previously wrote “Jacinda take note: banning firearms achieves little.” ….So which is it flip flapper ?
your flippy flops ‘Howevers’ ….left out police shooting blacks ie ‘ Black lives matter’ … and misappropriated ‘Prohibition’ shootings as being caused by ‘drugs / Gangs ‘ …. You do know the Alcohol did not cause the St Valentine days massacre during that prohibition? .
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Also during your first post of bullshit ….. I forgot to mention your biggest howler …. where you could be quoting the Christchurch subpremacist killer…. Or Nationals ‘migration compact’ views .
You say “there have been thousands of deadly attacks on Jews by Muslims in Europe.” …. Links Andy?
Or maybe Andrew was confused and talking about the mass drownings Europeans are inflicting on Muslim and brown refugees… Thousands upon thousands drowned …. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/07/100-migrants-refugees-feared-drowned-mediterranean-sea-190725150839996.html
Lauren Southern has joined with ‘ far right pirates’ ,,, who would rather see refugees drown ,,, than reach safety ….. she’s a doer … and is probably worse than stefan moronox https://youtu.be/uAV0eI6MnrA
“Nearly 700 deaths have been recorded in the Mediterranean so far this year, according to the IOM, almost half as many as the 1,425 registered in 2018.
“If current trends for this year continue, that will see us pass more than 1,000 deaths in the Mediterranean for the sixth year in a row,” Yaxley, the UNHCR spokesman, told Al Jazeera.”
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Back to Andrews dribble : “Unreported by British press, Jews in Birmingham and London are getting out because of this ongoing threat and many are moving to Manchester where there is a bigger Jewish community and self-defence is more of an option. The police stand idly by, tied up in PC dogma.” ….. To which i say …Is Andrew mad and does he own weapons ???
Finally like a sick joke from andy …. “I’m still not sure why you think Brash is a racist. To my mind he is the ultimate anti-racist.”
An insight into his mind ……. versus the truth
“The Iwi/Kiwi billboards encouraged ‘non-Maori’ to feel separate and threatened by Maori who wanted to take away their beaches, even though there was never a real risk of this.”
“Having written the Orewa speech, created the planned ‘big splash’ and reaped the poll rise, Keenan confided during the election year that ‘I hate the “race based privilege” line’. National was still milking the ‘end race-based privilege’ slogan, which was one of six main election messages selected for endless repetition. But Keenan told Sinclair he thought this was ‘ludicrous when Maori are largely at the bottom of the heap’.”
https://www.nickyhager.info/propaganda-then-and-now-notes-of-a-lecture-at-auckland-museum-on-wednesday-2-may-2007/
Reason: I’ve also had trouble following this comment of yours. But I’ve done my best with it.
“….when andrew writes ” quick corrections” …. we should read it as “more bullshit”
No. We should not. If anyone disagrees, they make a well-found argument against what Andrew has written, preferably using links with supporting evidence. And they ought to refrain from epithets and insults: that sort of thing bespeaks a want of substantive argument on the part of the flinger of such epithets.
“…your biased link uses the word “Probably” in its title ….. and shows no proof of any membership with anti-fascist groups …. But YOU state it as fact….”
I’ve read that article. It seems to me, either that you haven’t read it, or that you haven’t understood it.
This is – in part – what it says:
“While Betts, the Dayton shooter, didn’t leave behind a manifesto, his extensive social-media footprint provides clues as to what may have inspired him. Federal investigators announced Tuesday that they are looking into his exploration of violent ideologies.
Betts had long expressed support for antifa accounts, causes and individuals. That would be the loose network of militant leftist activists who physically attack anyone to the right of Mao in the name of “anti-fascism.” In particular, Betts promoted extreme hatred of American border enforcement.
“Kill every fascist,” the shooter declared in 2018 on twitter, echoing a rallying cry of antifa ideologues. Over the next year, his tweets became increasingly violent. “Nazis deserve death and nothing else,” he tweeted last October. Betts frequently flung the label “Nazi” at those with whom he disagreed online.
By December, he reached out on Twitter to the Socialist Rifle Association, an antifa gun group, to comment about bump stocks, and the SRA responded to him. (A bump stock is an attachment for semiautomatic rifles that allow them to fire much faster.)
By June he tweeted: “I want socialism, and I’ll not wait for the idiots to finally come round understanding.” Last week, he promoted posts that demonized Sens. Ted Cruz and Bill Cassidy’s resolution against antifa extremism.”
Note that Antifa isn’t an organisation: it’s an ideology. Nobody, therefore, can be a member per se. But they can sympathise with Antifa’s ideology, which was the case with Betts.
The article goes on to say this (inter alia):
“The unanimous rejection of the El Paso shooter’s beliefs, including by President Trump, once more demonstrated the nation’s resolve against hard-right hate. Yet when it comes to far-left violent extremism, there is a gaping blind spot in the mainstream discourse, and we are less safe because of it.
………………………………
The Dayton shooter promoted the same virulently anti-law-enforcement rhetoric that too many mainstream figures on the left flirt with.
………………………………
His case also makes clear that antifa’s violence goes far beyond the street hooliganism it has become infamous for. The group espouses the belief that liberal democracy is irredeemably oppressive — fascistic, even — and must be thoroughly destroyed.”
And so on. Read the rest of the article; Antifa isn’t peaceful and non-violent, as much of the woke left evidently wants to believe. So the headline is accurate: Betts may be the first Antifa mass shooter, but, given Antifa’s propensity for violence, he may well not be the last.
“your flippy flops ‘Howevers’ ….left out police shooting blacks ie ‘ Black lives matter’ … and misappropriated ‘Prohibition’ shootings as being caused by ‘drugs / Gangs ‘ …. You do know the Alcohol did not cause the St Valentine days massacre during that prohibition?”
Police shootings of blacks in the US are an egregious crime, and a stain on that society. However: I’m not aware that there have been any mass shootings by police – of blacks or of anyone else – in recent times. Possibly ever. As to the era of prohibition, it was alcohol (a drug) which drove pretty much all of the violence and organised crime at that time. Although the perpetrators of the St Valentine’s Day Massacre have never been conclusively identified, there’s little doubt that alcohol was the principal underlying factor.
“You say “there have been thousands of deadly attacks on Jews by Muslims in Europe.” …. Links Andy?”
Er – you yourself have posted obvious quotes without any links; I asked you about that. Pot: meet kettle.
“…talking about the mass drownings Europeans are inflicting on Muslim and brown refugees… Thousands upon thousands drowned…”
I suspect that you don’t really know the full story about what’s been going on in the Mediterranean. It is not for any of us – a fortiori, Medecins sans Frontiere, which, either in ignorance or disingenuousness, unwarrantedly stuck its nose into that situation – to preach at Europe about taking refugees from North Africa or the ME. We don’t have to live with the consequences. And please: refrain from using pieces from Al Jazeera. It isn’t a commentator of record; about anything much, but especially about this part of the world. Remember who funds it.
“To which i say …Is Andrew mad and does he own weapons ???”
A classic example of the non sequitur, I say. What on earth has that got to do with Andrew’s comment preceding it?
“Finally like a sick joke from andy …. “I’m still not sure why you think Brash is a racist. To my mind he is the ultimate anti-racist.””
Andrew is entitled to express his point of view. As it happens, I agree; individuals can’t be racist.That’s the purview of governments. I disagree with much of what Brash says (I wrote at length to him after he gave THAT speech in Orewa all those years ago), but it’s a free country. He can think and say what he likes.
““……threatened by Maori who wanted to take away their beaches, even though there was never a real risk of this.””
I beg to differ: that’s not entirely true. There were some potential issues with access to a few areas; hence the Clark administration’s passing of the Foreshore and Seabed Act. And there has been at least one issue that I know of, following a fairly recent Treaty settlement. That was during the tenure of the Key government, and necessitated ministerial intervention to resolve. Access was restored.
“….Keenan confided during the election year that ‘I hate the “race based privilege” line.”
Yup. Not much in the way of privilege, for working class Maori at any rate. If you haven’t read it, I recommend Hager’s book “The Hollow Men” , for an insight into the Byzantine nature of the politics surrounding that issue.
Anent the issue of what is and isn’t racist: on the usual definition of “racism”, the Maori seats are racist. And the contemporary push to set up by-Maori for-Maori services: that’s segregation. Written into the legal framework, that’s apartheid, and also indisputably racist.
People of my generation fought to dismantle apartheid and segregation in polities worldwide. We considered ourselves to be citizens of a modern, representative democracy; many of us are at the very least uneasy at the possibility of such racist policies re-emerging, and in NZ of all places.
DEsterre … Andrews link was Biased and from your own quote conflate anti-fa with ….”That would be the loose network of militant leftist activists who physically attack anyone to the right of Mao in the name of “anti-fascism.”
Biased as Trump I would say …. Democracy Now gives a bit more reasonable information on anti-fascists https://youtu.be/DbADzGwqlsc
re valentines day Massacre …. it was the criminal MONEY involved from the sale of the prohibited drug…. violence is part of prohibition business…. How much gun violence now takes place in the non prohibition Alcohol trade ?. Your either lacking in critical thinking … or playing semantics.
About the Mediterranean …. I know that over 1000 refugees per year have drowned for the past 6 years, …. and right wingers along with Lauren Sourthng have used boats to try and deny safety to desperate people…. A dislike of Al Jazera does not change this.
….
Are you disputing the figures in your attack the messenger argument ? …. I’ll quote who I like thanks … and I know very well the shortcomings of Al Jazeeras as a network …. just like bbc …. like rt … like cnn etc
I could go on and on …. but I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on a lot of things.
Especially this from you….. ” individuals can’t be racist.That’s the purview of governments.” …. No racist cops or Bosses then ?? What a relief for you.
Finally …. sorry I initially confused Charlottsville with El Paso …..
Charlottesville: The true alt right …. I recommend watching with the sound on. https://youtu.be/zcoYKuoiUrY
The whitewashing and not calling out the racisim behind Nationals dishonest Iwi / Kiwi Billboards / … and The ‘race card’Electioneering under Brash / Key ,,has piissed me off since back when it was taking place … Now over a decade latter when DEsterre repeats it … while disagreeing with Nicky Hager … its still rancid and off. I hope she did it through ignorance of the facts whic hNickys link provides.. https://www.nickyhager.info/propaganda-then-and-now-notes-of-a-lecture-at-auckland-museum-on-wednesday-2-may-2007/
Lets be clear …National go after votes using Race based fearmongering, hype and dishonesty …..
Iwi /Kiwi : “The party’s election strategists tried to exploit anxiety among conservative Pākehā voters that Helen Clark’s Labour-led government were privileging Māori at their expense. The billboard suggests that a re-elected Labour government would give the nation’s beaches to Māori, but under a National government led by Don Brash the beaches would remain open to all New Zealanders. …. https://teara.govt.nz/files/33891-pc.jpg
The truth of Labours actions … as DEsterre almost informs us ,,, … Is that Labor snuffed out any chance of this happening … Even when the law or history was on Maori side …
.. Labour pandering to the majority of NZ voters (white), took away legal rights or avenues to Justice for Maori ….
The foreshore and seabed Act D’Est mentions … “was a confiscation of Maori customary rights,”….
This change of law and its stripping of legal rights .. Was based on fear of white voter back-lash, with National ready to cynically exploit … Labours actions cost it many Maori voters and for the first time I can remember …Labour lost the Maori seats in the election/
Yet National were running Electioneering …portraying Helen Clarke and Labour as in danger of giving Maori our beaches …. and all sorts of other ‘PC’ privillages. http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0507/S00020.htm
The double dipping racist war-mongerer Wayne mapp was shadow minister … for some anti- political correctness ministry.
National knew their electioneering was dishonest and racially divisive … they were telling lies about Labour … on top of more lies and myths against our long discriminated against and dispossessed indigenous Maori minority ….for votes.
…. fostering and encouraging racism … for the racists votes.
Nicky Hager and others saw right through this racist propaganda ….. https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/04-05-2017/relax-maori-arent-banning-you-from-the-beach-or-are-we/
but most of our NZ media with its right wing bias … gave it a free pass… At election time,
and even now Nationals cynical fear-mongering goes on …..
Feeding sick minds who write things like “Here’s your migration compact” on murder weapons ….
The media gave Nationals refugee fear-mongering a free pass ,,, and even help with the hype ( mass waves of boat people etc ) … until a sick subpremacist murdered over 50 people in agreement in Christchurch.
The Nacts have no problem Feeding the Andrews with the rot behind his ‘whack right’ conspiracy theory s.
To finish on a positive and educational note ,,, heres a interesting History of militant anti-fascisim…… Far different As opposed to the biased Andrews, Trumps. and co … Which also reminds me ….
The christchurch subpremacist white terror killer, well he hated anti-fa as socialist traitors( to race ), and they were an enemy to be killed.
militant anti-fascisim …. Founded in Post WWII by Jewish British WWII vetrans … from the english Armed forces … …. The good guys 🙂 6 mins in https://youtu.be/HivGdRBG0XU
“The Säuberung (cleansing by fire) was the work of the German Student Union which, on 10 May 1933, under the watchful eye of the Reichminister for Propaganda, Joseph Goebbels, consigned 25,000 books to the flames in a ritual exorcism of “un-German thought”. Into the bonfire illuminating the square in front of the Berlin Opera House, hundreds of radical nationalist students hurled the works of Jewish, Socialist and Communist authors.”
I’ve long known about this episode. I must have been still at primary school, when information about the genocide of the Jews (as it was then known) and events in pre-war Germany became more freely available here.
Coming from a book-loving household, I was baffled that anyone would do such a thing. I don’t know that – at my relatively young age – I quite grasped the significance of it being students who’d done it.
Later on, when I was of student age, I was horrified and disbelieving that students – of all people – would burn books.
Nowadays, in the current environment of the woke left and the cancel culture, I’m still horrified, but much less disbelieving. I can now see how the German students of the 1930s were indoctrinated (or intimidated) into carrying out such a barbarous act.
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