Do you ever get a moment when you sense something, look up, sniff the sky and just feel something is off?
Is anyone else getting that sense with this whole Russian poisoning of a double agent spy narrative?
The perfect timing of the spy being poisoned in NZ story appearing seamlessly into our news headlines, the regular media briefing the British High Commission is giving NZ journalists, the bullshit reasons given as to why Putin would murder a British resident on British soil – none of it adds up.
I don’t want to spend too much time on unpicking what’s been presented to us, I want to focus on the ramifications of NZ being forced to end its free trade deal with Russia because of the UK and Russian diplomatic tensions, but very quickly, here are some things that seem too perfect about the narrative presented to us.
Firstly, let me be clear. I am no fan of Putin. I think he’s a terrifying KGB grand chess master who runs an authoritarian regime that regularly breaches human rights that is half totalitarian and half narco state. I’m not someone on the Left who has any admiration for his brutality or his ruthlessness and without a shadow of a doubt believe he is absolutely capable of ordering a former spy to be executed in a public manner that only traces back to Russia.
But on what has been released to us in the public about this bizarre case, nothing much adds up to the conclusion Theresa May has put forward that Russia ordered and carried out this hit.
The Novichok family of nerve agents are not as exclusive as the UK claims. Yes they were made by the Russians and their fingerprints are all over their creation, but other Intelligence Agencies, including Britain themselves, can produce these nerve agents. To pin an allegation as serious as this onto the Russians simply because it was created by them isn’t strong enough to conclude involvement. There are plenty of other players who would want this destabilisation.
The argument put forward that Putin wanted to do this ahead of the Russian elections seems woeful as a motive. Putin is going to win those elections with the usual landslide a totalitarian regime can concoct, so why the need for chaos and mayhem for a result that’s already been made?
The perfect timing of all the spy in NZ propaganda that swamped our media reeks of foregone conclusions.
Remember the certainty the Brits had when claiming they had the evidence Saddam had WMDs?
Again, I think Putin is easily capable of all this, but what we’ve heard so far doesn’t add up.
Let’s put that aside and look at the decision by the new Government to put Russia’s free trade deal to one side because of the diplomatic war that’s broken out, (that Matthew Hooton was miraculously making this point in yesterdays Herald doesn’t make me feel any better).
The whole reason why Winston was pushing for a free trade deal with Russia was a counter pressure point to Chinese threats to our economy if NZ pushed through legislation banning foreign land sales.
China sees Labour’s desire to block foreign land sales as aimed against them and could threaten milk powder exports in retaliation. Winston’s desire to open up exports to Russia are driven by Russia being a large importer of dairy to neutralise the Chinese threat to the economy.
With Russia ruled out as an export market, watch how belligerent China now becomes towards NZs plans to block foreign ownership and tax water.
With China becoming a virtual dictatorship, another clamp down on capital flight, another clamp down on state censorship and a looming trade war, there are geopolitical vortexes we want to desperately stay clear of.
UPDATE: Pilger on the British claims
http://www.moonofalabama.org/2018/03/governments-decree-truth-about-skripal-dissenters-will-be-punished.html#more
By the way you are wrong about both Putin and China
Have you been watching info wars. I’m going to know if you try and turn this thread into a mess like what happened when standardistas tried to talk go on about highly specialised facet of war. Using nerve agents is a war crime under every international law we have. This is not the standard or kiwi blog. Here it’s expected that you’ve done a minimum amount of reading to educate yourself on a subject you comment on. That said let’s roll.
The only thing we can say without doubt is that agents like Novichok can enter the body by being ingested (through contaminated food or liquid), or by penetrating through the skin or respiratory system. I recall seeing an investigator/”expert” (can’t remember exactly) saying they believe it was absorbed trough the skin. And I can’t find any similar statement, so probably not an investigator (thus, grain of salt etc.).
Now — I’m not a chemical warfare specialist, just average knowledge of toxicology —, chemical poisoning would be almost immediate if inhaled/ingested, but if absorbed through the skin, it would be comparatively slower. They’re in critical condition but still alive…, well if it means anything so in my opinion, I don’t think they’ve been exposed to it in a liquid form. I don’t think they would’ve walked away from home/restaurant (depending on where they were poisoned, most likely the restaurant) if ingested.
As to their prognosis, we are not doctors so it really isn’t up to us to comment on that. The probability of permanent/long-term damages is high but they managed to survive a nerve agent so either the dose ingested/absorbed was high enough to hurt them (doesn’t need much) but below the lethal dose or they keep them in intensive care for obvious reason even if their stats are correct/good. Even if they found a way to reverse the effects of the agent and stabilized them, they would still need to be monitored intensively. But yeah, there isn’t a way to recover from the damages already done, not with nerve agents designed to kill.
Because highly-educated chemical plant operators would notice the difference in handling procedure, chemical properties, reaction conditions, and steps in a procedure between the small handful of chemicals been manufactured and nerve agent. And is either lazy and stupid enough to not test his materials for purity before beginning synthesis or now you have yet another person in on the plot falsifying the inspection of the materials.
Which, given the fact there’s change in setup, reaction conditions, reaction steps, and what’s going to happen with the stuff instead of placing it into a safe storage facility for shipping along with the rest of the stuff this is ostensibly supposed to be, might come across as a tad suspicious, no?
After skim reading that link you posted and It became immediately apparent you or the author, and much of the standardistas know fuck all about employing and fabricating chemical weapons and what it all means.
You see I preferred it when Trump yelled into the Twitter or Putin yelled into an auditorium while doing fuck all. But sometimes when you yell into the abyss, the abyss yells back. And when tyrants do not like what they hear it hurst every one else. So zip it, just zip it.
” so just zip it, zip it” who the fuck do you think you are to tell people to zip it. You’re not related to the British Defence minister are you? “Russia should just shut up and go away.” Have. You heard what Larov said about that prick? You are obviously under some illusion that you ARE a chemical weapons expert you arrogant prick. Fortunately from the dribble you have posted you know nothing about it. So really you should just STFU. Anyhow I’m curious, your arrogance and aggression about the Moon of Alabama alternative media post, why? Because it provides an alternative narrative to the mainstream media lies that you obviously are enamoured with and expect everyone else to be? There’s a whole another world and truth out their mate. One you obviously don’t want to know anything about. You have listened to Teresa May spout her “theory”, decided because it is Teresa May and nasty Russians, Teresa May is correct. You haven’t bothered to critically analyse what she has said and accepted it as fact. Thank god others aren’t as willing as you to be seduced by politicans words. Otherwise we might turn into another Germany, who listened to the words of Hitler and believed every word he said. Actually I found your post rather disheartening. Still some dumbskulls around who like to bully, shout and threaten rather than learn and weigh up what they hear with evidence. Ah well as move into dangerous times thank god a lot more people are more discerning than you happen to be.
WIN KIdDLE. If you want to Finnish your cocoa puffs then hop on the Twitter and at me @sam1bro. I will debate you and your entire community. Again. Outliars. The debating community uses it in vs battles. I’m assuming you are of drinking age so bring your notes.
Because you are so arrogant, ignorant and nasty I will not waste my time with you. The whole thing will go nowhere. You were basically telling me to shut up. Why? No good arguments, nothing. I’m quite happy to debate you here.
The Daily Blog is only for ultra formal debate, we can have debates that stem from arguments on Twitter. You don’t really want every one to see me body you in public. But I want to tag your friends in so they can see at you.
The real question is why every one is afraid of Russia’s Putin and not the, investigation and reporting failures that lead to a war crimes being committed on British soil. And the compounding failures to report accurately.
Also the appeal to emotion is annoying. in the link it said something like neuro toxins transmitted through the skin was not the likely cause weaponised form… So I set about explaining why that was incorrect in my original reply.
Like I said. Quite wasting every ones time and space on here and jump on Twitter.
Indeed.
That was a very long post to say fuck all of any importance.
Do you have a learning disability? The evidence given for Russia’s involvement in a war crime on UK soil is flimsy at best. It really shouldn’t have been this difficult to prove. And I thought -I- was the one visiting the drinks cabinet too much. Did you trip over into some medical controlled facility because that’s the only way any of your comments makes sense.
So some government produced a Russian-invented fourth generation nerve gas to kill an Russian ex-spy in the UK.
If it wasn’t for moderation, all of your comments would be a collection of emoji giggles.
Sam you have made many assumptions and are pretty much out on a limb.
Nerve gas used – who says for one
Are you trying to ascribe some claims to me, which I have not explicitly made. I stated the arguments, that the original blog post started, are MORE believable, than the claims about “making an example”, not that “making an example” claims are NOT believable. Without more concrete facts and proof, I personally cannot be certain. As for the point that “somebody else did this” – why yes, I do believe that. But since when not agreeing with popular opinion, that hasn’t been yet supported by anything, but spoken claims, is a conspiracy theory?
I am a New Zealander, so I am not going to try and defend Russia. I found the original post, thought it a good piece of reasoning, and thought why not discuss further. However it seems you are not interested in the discussion, that does not support the most popular opinion of “Russia did it.”
On the point about annoyance – as a New Zealander, I, in fact, feels extremely annoyed about people screaming about Russia being guily, based on at best circumstantial evidence (that is available to general public). Of course, as soon as the British authorities release more substantial and documented evidence – I will review it, and then, if it is indeed reasonable or undeniable, I will change my opinion. But for now – “making an example” out of a person, who was traded in a spy exchange AFTER being found and interrogated sound like an incredibly ridiculous claim.
Two last points:
1) If Skripals and officer Bailey are indeed affected by the nerve agent, and are in hospital or any other treatment facility, then why there has been no photo evidence of them really being there? Same with their diagnoses and afflictions. I mean, we can see photos of other people, like Litvinenko, why not them?
2) If Skripals were indeed poisoned by a military-grade nerve agent, why are they still alive? I mean, even the US Army rules state, that you have to immediately get an antidote, or you will die within 5-10 minutes. Yet, they were found around 30-40 minutes after leaving restaurant, and I’m sure the responding officers and doctors wouldn’t have any antidote for nerve agents on them (at least in peacetime). Even the scientist that developed the Novichok family of nerve agents says death is certain, it’s also claimed that one blood sample can be analysed to discover its chemical passport and identify the person or facility that manufactured the nerve agent: https://t.co/MgoWobbr90
These are legitimate question which can be easily angered by routine tests. But for political reasons are unanswered.
Well Martyn ,
Much more powerful actors than us have been forced to back down
Look at how Corbyn has been humiliatingly brought to heel
There’s about a 24 hour window, to say publicly what you really think, then wait for it, the craven “clarification”
Witness the French, one day “We don’t do fantasy politics”…show us the evidence , complete an investigation and we’ll form a position
24 hours later..we’re all in, Russia must be condemned
The UK are far too weak to have arm twisted(an Obama phrase by the way
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2e_otoo2Vg)
France, this will have come from the US
And for all those who think Tillerson was sacked for being too tough on Russia, check out Mike Pompeo, his replacement,all you Russophobes will be well pleased
Poor world,I loved thee well
We are now in the jaws of a horrible phase in world history
I can see it in the coarse and hateful language of previously considered publications like the Guardian
I’m angry and I’m sad, my poor children and grandchildren are going to have to live and die through some terrible times
All the personnel changes in the Trump administration look to me like the establishment taking over. I don’t believe Trump gets on better with Pompeo than with Tillerson. I think Trump is going to resign soon, The positions are being filled on behalf of the incoming replacement. There won’t be any talks with Nth Korea, he spoke without authority, he is unreliable to the establishment and quite inadequate to confront a Russia with invincible nuke delivery systems. He has to go, but he must know by now that he can’t do anything of his own choosing anyway, I think he will happily resign and not have to be impeached.
I empathise with your anguish for the world and our descendants.
D J S
D J S
Thanks David
Your comments always give me heart
Thanks David, your comments always give me heart
Well said.
“I think Putin is a terrifying KGB grand chessmaster who runs an authoritarian regime that regularly breaches human rights that is half totalitarian and half narco state.” This sounds like the kind of crap that you would expect to find in the Washington post or the Guardian. I have been researching what life is like in contemporary Russia ever since the first incidents in the Ukraine, like the CIA engineered coup d’etat of a democratically elected government. I have read accounts from Western independent investigative journalists that have lived in Russia for a number of years. They report that none of this is true and make it clear that these unsubstantiated allegations are U.S. Empire propaganda brought about by the U.S slowly collapsing under the weight of its destroyed and decaying infrastructure, failed democracy, rampant corruption among its scientists, congressmen, banksters, pseudo economists, and its out of control military industrial complex. At the same time Russia has been rising from the ashes of the fall of the Soviet Union to become once more a rival to the unipolar hegemony of the U.S. As a litmus test, ask yourself from where is emanating the predatory violence that is emersing the planet? Is it Russia, or is it the U.S. empire? The U.S or its proxies is responsible for invasions of Serbia,Afghanistan, Iraq,Syria, Libya, and Yemen, and is threatening Venezuela, Lebanon, Iran, and North Korea. And the greatest enablers of the vile regime of Zionist Israel with its ethnic cleansing, Apartheid, and Holocaust on the Palestinians, is The U.S and Britain. They are the ones that should be called out as moral lepers, but instead you focus on Russia!?
Here Here Pete, but at least Martyn has contradicted the MSM bullshit regarding the unfortunate ex Russian and British spy and his daughter
Putin’s Russia, a have of peace, human rights and progress, are you for real?
https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2018/country-chapters/russia
https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/europe-and-central-asia/russian-federation/report-russian-federation/
You accuse others of being Russia-phobes, while you are as blinkered as they come, when it comes to Russia itself.
I have little time for the bias coming from the US, UK and so forth, but refuse to embrace one side over the other, when it comes to rightfully raised issues about and with the way things are done in the Russian Federation, especially under one Wladimir Putin.
Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International are not quite what they seem
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article32257.htm
Here is Professor Steven Cohen who was the accepted American expert on all things Russian until Russia began to reassert itself after the Yeltsin years. He suddenly was completely ignored by the MSM (ie the CIA media)
https://off-guardian.org/2018/01/29/video-rethinking-putin-a-talk-by-prof-steven-f-cohen/
I don’t think Russia is heaven on earth as you seem to imply I do. Russia has huge corruption problems and the man who is sorting them out is Vladimir Putin. I am sure he has his faults but he has been the subject of a deliberate demonisation campaign by western politicians and the media. Just today Boris Johnston said that the ex Russian and ex British spy’s attempted murder was certainly ordered by Putin. Is he living in a cartoon. They have not even identified the cause of death/sickness properly yet and he knows who ordered it.
There have been a whole string of allegations against Putin. Killing journalists, Alexander Litvinenko. All unproven but found guilty anyway.
It appears the Russians now have weapons that the west cannot protect itself against so if Putin is the devil incarnate we will find out wont we. I suggest the far greater risk is from Washington and London who have robbed the world blind using the privilege of having the reserve currency and are now shitting themselves because China is about to depose them financially and Russia has already deposed them militarily
It is not as simple as you present it with an apparent bias:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2015/04/9-things-you-probably-didnt-know-about-where-amnestys-money-comes-from/
“1. We don’t accept money from governments…
…other than in very limited circumstances, including human rights education, which make up less than 1% of our total income. We are fully independent of governments, political ideologies, economic interests and religions.”
“2. Over 81% of our income comes from individual donations
And much of this will be from regular monthly gifts. Having a steady, predictable flow of money means we can better plan our human rights research and campaigning.”
And by the way, Amnesty and HR Watch have also criticised treatment of persons in the US, UK and other ‘western’ countries, by state agencies and so forth, when they had reason to do so.
They can hardly be seen as being an ‘instrument’ of the west with an anti Russian bias.
As for Putin, here is perhaps a more balanced summary by Wikipedia, but as they are based in Hawaii, I suppose you will consider that site to also be a kind of biased ‘instrument’ that cannot be relied on.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Putin
In Russia they passed laws discriminating against homosexuals, and also allowing draconian measures by police and state agencies against ‘protestors’, who can swiftly be locked up, hence there has been little in the way of opposition that was able to develop against Putin and the party or parties that do support him.
That does not mean that Russia or Putin were responsible for the nerve agent attack against a double spy in the UK, but it does also not mean they are innocent. International investigations that are independent are needed, and they appear to be under way now.
I don’t see too much wrong with the Wikipedia entry Marc.
US presidents have presided over things like the My Lai massacre, The Waco disaster. Whats the difference. As for the homosexual business. Do you expect the whole world to change at the same time and in the same way as New York or Wellington. It was not so long ago homosexuality was illegal in NZ. America has openly supported dissension and protest in Russia. Perhaps this is why they find counter measures necessary. Before you bring up Pussy Riot (It usually follows the homosexuality thing) . They behaved appallingly in a church in a very religiously conservative society. Imagine people cavorting near naked in a Samoan church. Where would your sympathies lie.
This is a great listen Marc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zxw-zhX6WvE
Just another person’s view, maybe not irrelevant, but just one other view.
You quote Amnesty and HRW? ffs. Go and take a pill.
Maybe you need a pill of a kind?
It’s almost obligatory to preface remarks about Putin/Russia with those qualifications these days
Cockburn or Fisk said something similar regarding any talk of Assad
It’s to pre empt all that waste of time you go through having to answer stupid breathless assertions and questions
“But Putin kills journalists, keeps tabs on everyone in Russia(some 144 million)and sends them to Siberia if they”like” Navalny on facebook!”
Maybe Martyn means it.I mean we’ve been pretty well bombarded with this stuff as soon as it was realised Putin wasn’t going to be a compliant little pushover like Yeltsin
Well said, it is tragic and ridiculous to have to start a comment by saying, “I’m not a fan of Putin but……..” bloody ridiculous.
The matter at hand is actually very simple.
Britain has accused a sovereign nation of a crime without evidence. Britain has not followed agreed international protocols for a scenario like this.
https://off-guardian.org/2018/03/14/russias-statement-to-the-opcw-in-response-to-allegation-of-complicity-in-alleged-skripal-poisoning/
“If London does have serious reasons to suspect Russia of violating the CWC – and the statement read by distinguished Ambassador Peter Wilson indicates directly that this is so – we suggest that Britain immediately avail itself of the procedures provided for by paragraph 2 of Article 9 of the CWC. They make it possible, on a bilateral basis, to officially contact us for clarifications regarding any issues that raise doubts or concerns.”
And a very important question Martyn, since when did NZ decide it’s response to an international incident based on the financial implications? Or am I a silly gullible fool?
At this point in time Russia is guilty of nothing and the UK is most definitely guilty of disinformation and fearmongering that could lead us who knows where.
When did we stop being the country that refused to go to Iraq in 2003 or the country that said no to nukes? When did we decide it was ok to pick sides depending on how much money was in it for us? Or is the left being dragged to the centre right everywhere in NZ by Jacinda and her mates in the Labour Party?
Here we have a Salisbury medical consultant disputing the reports that up to 40 people have been treated for nerve agent poisoning
he also states, only 3 people have ever been treated for poisoning
Note he doesn’t add the “nerve” qualifier
http://www.moonofalabama.org/2018/03/no-patients-have-experienced-symptoms-of-nerve-agent-poisoning-in-salisbury.html#more
I couldn’t agree more Historian Pete. Putin is the great equaliser.
Well, let’s hope your “research” is a bit more credible than your climate-denying “research” has been up till now, Pete.
Interesting how those who glorify life in a particular country have usually never even set foot in it. (And that applies to the US as well as Russia.)
It baffles me why so many non-Russians are cheerleaders for Putin and his oligarchal cronies (who seized state assets after the collapse of the USSR) when it’s an open secret that those people have enriched themselves at the expense of ordinary Russian citizens.
It would be like homeless people applauding Trump’s gold-decorated apartment in Trump Tower, in New York.
Honestly, Pete (and everyone else) do you really think Putin, Trump, and the other One Percenters on this planet care as much about you as you seem to about them?!
Think about it.
Firstly Frank, I am not a ” Climate Denier” but a “Neither confirm nor Denier”. I criticise either side of the argument where I consider omissions or a false narrative has been introduced.I am not a zealot like you who refuses to look at evidence that could perhaps cast doubt on or weaken a climate change argument.
I have never been to Russia, but no doubt if I had you would immediately accuse me of “sucking at the teat of Vladimir Putin”or being in the thrall of the Kremlin.
I have been to the U.S many times, but how this qualifies me to be an expert on the U.S. I am not quite sure.
Putin has been on the whole the greatest enemy of the Oligarchs, who had full sway in the period 1980 to 2000, when Russia was penetrated and influenced [meddled] by U.S.ideology and economic influence.
All in all, Frank, just your usual superficial and shallow analysis that we have come to expect!!!
Well, well, well, some balance perhaps:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Putin
‘Human rights policy’
“An NGO based in the New York City; Human Rights Watch; in a report entitled Laws of Attrition, authored by Hugh Williamson, the British director of HRW’s Europe & Central Asia Division, has claimed that since May 2012, when Putin was reelected as president, Russia has enacted many restrictive laws, started inspections of nongovernmental organizations, harassed, intimidated, and imprisoned political activists, and started to restrict critics. The new laws include the “foreign agents” law, which is widely regarded as over-broad by including Russian human rights organizations which receive some international grant funding, the treason law, and the assembly law which penalizes many expressions of dissent.[227][228] human rights activists have criticized Russia for censoring speech of LGBT activists due to “the gay propaganda law”[229] and increasing violence against LGBT+ people due to the law.[230][231][232]”
‘The media’
“Reporters Without Borders, for instance, ranked Russia 148 in its 2013 list of 179 countries in terms of freedom of the press. It particularly criticized Russia for the crackdown on the political opposition and the failure of the authorities to vigorously pursue and bring to justice criminals who have murdered journalists. Freedom House ranks Russian media as “not free,” indicating that basic safeguards and guarantees for journalists and media enterprises are absent.[237] ”
I suppose Wikipedia are also ‘shallow’, right?
Actually, Pete, I find frank’s arguments a lot more persuasive and balanced than your unproven, weird claims.
Frank can be accused of several things but “shallow” ain’t one of them. So back away, tiger.
Who’s glorifying life in Russia?
Those poor bastards are still working through the multiple fuckups of the past, not all self inflicted
Their population has only just got back to the levels before WW2.I empathise with the tragedy of 27 million lives lost, that impacts hugely, and has never been recognised
That they’re not at the level of our super superior democracies, that they haven’t recreated themselves in our very fine image , is not a bother to me.
They’ve got a way to go to reach our heights of dizzy enlightenment
So?
Its the downright relentless , close to racist language and propaganda
that pisses me off
Nothing, apparently, absolutely NOTHING about Russia is any good
Its getting worse.. now its the RUSSIANS, some dark and unholy force driven in unfathomable ways to pervert all that is good in the world
Thats why I’m always blathering on and pushing back
When I see some even handed treatment of any country thats fallen foul of our lords and masters for reasons to do with influence and resources, not humanitarian concerns, I’ll shut TFU
So there you go Frank, I don’t love Putin, I didn’t love Obama, I certainly don’t love Trump
Sigh, maybe I’ll take up North Korea next
I wouldn’t be so harshly black and white. The Russians emerged from a feudal society within a generation. They lifted their standards of health, education, and science until they beat our American cuzzies to put the first man (and later, the first woman) into space. They implemented free healthcare including a nationwide vaccination programme against polio, etc, to protect their citizenry.
They withstood the unbelievable harshness of Stalin’s paranoid persecution and then Hitler’s genocidal invasion of the Soviet Union.
As much as I criticise the Russian “elite” who have expropriated Russia’s wealth (just as the One Percenters have cornered the lion’s share of wealth in the West) – the nation as a whole has achieved some outstanding things in the 20th century.
Well if what I said about the media treatment of Russia was harsh, please be sure to send me good news from the Guardian,pointing out improved life expectancy, much lower rates of alchoholism, high rates of home ownwership, literacy, tertiary education etc
Not even that, something neutral would be good.
I listened to a BBC podcast this afternoon.A Russian woman who was about to vote for Putin for the 4 th time said”We’re Russian, don’t expect us to be like you, we’re not.”Asked about Putin’s strong man image she said “Russia is a huge place, we need a strong central government”
We need to hear more from ordinary Russians, not just the small percentage represented by Navalny, who seem to be the only ones the west can bring themselves to approve of
So Frank, next time you come across a Russia article in one of the major newspapers that is evenhanded and devoid of animus, be sure to pass it on.
I think I’m going to be waiting a long time.
Magnanimous of you, Frank, when I see those sentiments reflected in the media I’ll retract my “harsh” comments
I note from other comments, Historian Pete is also a kind of climate change denier, at least trying to dispute human contributions to it. What a coincidence.
Oh indeed he is a climate change denier, though he’ll deny being a denier…
He may deny the denial that he has previously denied.
You forgot to add Frank that when the USSR disintegrated, and Yeltsin the tool of the US government became president the standard of living of the Russians dropped dramatically. The country was the subject of a disgusting pure free market experiment that resulted in many Russians living in and dying of poverty, the resources pillaged and the wealth of the country concentrated in the hands of a very few rich oligarchs. It was Putin coming to power that resulted in a huge improvement in the living standards of Russian people. You need to research this period of Russian life – 1990s, after the fall of the Soviet republic. If you don’t know what happened during this time then you will never know why people support Putin. You also missed the 27 million Russians who were killed during WW2. If it wasn’t for Russia defeating Germany, Germany would have won the war. Russia is more than just archipelagos, snow and substandard living conditions.
Winifred, can we pause in our glorification of Dear Leader Putin to draw breath… and take a closer look at where Putin’s wealth is kept secreted away;
ref: https://www.icij.org/investigations/panama-papers/20160403-putin-russia-offshore-network/
Ok. Back to your hero-worship now.
Dearest Frank,
yes I do think Vlad is a hero. He has worked hard to improve the lives of people in his country. There is still more to do however. You obviously didn’t read my post because what he has done has been noted by the people in Russia. Hence his 80+% approval rating. The Panama papers didn’t mention Putin, only his friend. So I am not sure why the Western media went into such a feeding frenzy. And suddenly secret papers are leaked which are obviously are not as valid as the Panama papers because those secret papers have not been reported in mainstream media – who latch on to everything negative about Putin. “The records show Roldugin is a behind-the-scenes player in a clandestine network operated by Putin associates… ” Please read this Frank because on my reading it doesn’t finger Putin, only people he is associated with. It’s a pity you can’t acknowledge the positive things Putin has done. As well as the sacrifices the Russian people have made. Unfortunately they don’t have Hollywood or the corporate media to present their case. There is this take on the Panama Papers. You may like to skim it. http://www.moonofalabama.org/2016/04/selected-leak-of-the-panamapapers-creates-huge-blackmail-potential.html?cid=6a00d8341c640e53ef01b7c82ef2cc970b#comment-6a00d8341c640e53ef01b7c82ef2cc970b. This blog was also included on Dr Ron Paul’s website. MoA does have a lot of kudos in the anti war, anti hegemony community. Another by the Saker, an ex NATO military analyst; https://thesaker.is/uncle-shmuel-points-fingers-aka-panama-papers/ is quite telling re whose names are not included in the Panama papers. His site gets about 2 million views per month.
“Dearest Frank,
yes I do think Vlad is a hero.”
Well, Winifred, millions thought Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Franco, and others were “heores”. Right up to when they found the mass graves they created with their brutal regimes.
mmm what’s that got to do with my hero Putin?
Heil Putin, heil Putin, yeah right!
Look KINDDEL. You have to be able to describe the different ways neurotoxic molecules react with human biology. If you can’t do that then you can not report accurately the chain of events to the public. Rather relying on speculation, appeals to emotion and any other logical fallacy that fits pre established agenda.
Frank and I have already gone over the Putin fanboy vs debate. Talked it to death, reanimated it and killed it again a couple times just so we could talk it to death again. So we’ve thrashed it already. But for your benefit I’ll go over some things with you real quick.
I respect the power Putin commands as a dangerous one dimensional form of Super Power ie Central Command and Control. And Frank does not respect Putin for similar reasons. So it’s the underlying Marxist philosophy that is the problem here. When you’ve got maximum equilibrium ie equal wages right across the board that is disconnected from the real economy. So if every one earns the same then every one has the same access to resources, then it becomes a waiting list. So if you run out of that resource you have to wait 7 years for a pair of Nike shoes. Once upon a time you couldn’t get Nike trainers in New Zealand because we had fortress New Zealand policies that set prices communism style, so if you wanted luxury items you had to get on a plane and run the gauntlet of smuggling contraband with out a permit. And under tyrants like Putin, Yeltsin or Stalin that could be extremely hazardous to your health.
Every one agrees if you cross the state, doesn’t matter what country it is if you harm the interests of the state which happens to be the same interests as the 1% you can expect repercussions. And that’s not democracy, that’s true tyrannical power meaning the public has zero say in the matter, and in my honest opinion it ought to be respected.
So yeah. I think we’ve spent enough time with you, shown you enough detail for you to make up your own mind about these events with out relying on commercial media momentum hypnotising you into working against your best interests and the interests of New Zealand.
What a load of utter shite. “Shown enough detail” – yes about the same amount as Theresa May has shown in the poison spy case. Zero.
Oh, so that’s the proof of where Putin was hiding his wealth. Cheers for that.
Makes total sense that a billionaire oligarch would keep running the country under unheard of and totally unjustified pressure, lies and propaganda from most of the Western world when he could be swanning around his dacha on the Black Sea with a bevy of dancing girls, a couple of kilos of Beluga and a box of beer.
Thanks for clearing that up.
I do remember the Yeltsin years, and how Gorbachow did before him step down, which was also after a coup attempt against him.
Yeltsin made many mistakes, acted irresponsibly, obviously had a drinking problem, and was taken advantage of by leaders and lobbyists from western powers.
It is true that some oligarchs, some of them former senior bureaucrats and even Communist Party members, enriched themselves during that transition period after the collapse of the USSR.
Some can be attributed to corrupt influences from abroad, some was inevitable given the deterioration of systems and structures within the former USSR.
Putin was a smart operator, gained the trust of Yeltsin and others, and managed to put himself into a leadership position.
Of course some of what he did was restoring order and stability, and the economy picked up again. But he also looked after his own interests, and those of family and close allies, and he ensured that his power base was solidified and expanded, taking advantage of economic growth, which was largely based on oil and gas exports to the west, when prices were good for the sellers.
It is one thing though to praise ‘leadership’ as such, and another thing, whether such leadership is also democratic or not.
I think your views of Putin are a bit overly idealistic.
The problem for you guys though is how do you explain the increase of living standards of Russians after Putin came to power;
http://content.time.com/time/covers/0,16641,19960715,00.html
how do explain Putin’s popularity amongst his people? (Gallop poll data)
“Wikipedia – On December 31, 1999, President Boris Yeltsin resigned. Under the Constitution of Russia, the then Prime Minister of Russia Vladimir Putin became acting President.[44]” Yeltsin was a drunk and allowed Russia to become the doormat of the US. Hence why Yeltsin was so loved by Clinton et al. This is from WIkipedia – not academic reference but provides links to evidence for some of the claims made. Anyhow I know I am not going to change your minds. I was once in that “Russians are evil aliens” mode. But definitely not any more as you have noticed.
20 million Russians live below the poverty line, increased living standards for some perhaps, not all. Social injustice is the new ‘normal’ in Russia now, in that society of cleptocrats making deals with corrupt bureaucrats.
Ironic
Another moronic comment. That works out at less than 15% of the population, they must be doing something right. They are doing better than NZ.
“The ‘moving line’ or ‘relative’ measure sets the poverty line as a proportion of the median income. The fixed line measure (60 percent of median income) adjusted for housing costs indicated 15 percent of the total population lived in poverty in 2010, the same as in 2009.”
Cheers for pointing that out.
RUSSIAN State defined poverty level, which is not the same what we use in NZ:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/22/millions-more-russians-living-in-poverty-as-economic-crisis-bites
“An average of 19.2 million Russians – or 13.4% of the population – were living last year on less than 9,452 roubles ($139) a month, the minimum subsistence level determined by the Russian government in the fourth quarter. “
KIDDLE. Even African American slaves on the plantations experienced 1%-3% economic growth year in year out but that doesn’t make a good argument for slave wages. You’ve got to raise PPP (purchasing power parity) so that the hourly wage is commensurate with access to legal and medical care at each pay grade. Then it wouldn’t matter IF the economy was slogging along at 1%-3% GDP growth. Your entire economic thesis has been casually discredited. Yeah and then after these events is over they will do a “re-cap” and review it again or move on to the Panama papers. It’s like dirty politics just left wing and with out sapien. Same exact shit.
He certainly ‘dealt’ to some of them, those who refused to cooperate with him and his state agencies. Those that agreed to cooperate, they can carry on enriching themselves, as long as they do not overstep the line Mr Putin may have drawn before them in the sand.
Because we have been researching Putin to Frank but obviously from different sources. Life in Russia has improved immensely since he came to power. I can give you people to read and follow. Not the usual Western/Russian neo liberals that usually write falsehoods about Putin and/or Russia
Yeah right:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/22/millions-more-russians-living-in-poverty-as-economic-crisis-bites
“Honestly, Pete (and everyone else) do you really think Putin, Trump, and the other One Percenters on this planet care as much about you as you seem to about them?!”
That can be said for every leader and minister. For the record, Jacinda rakes in $470,000 per year, which puts her firmly in among this country’s 1%ers (let alone on a global scale, with an median yearly income of under US$3,000, which likely puts most of us here in NZ into the 1%er category).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Minister_of_New_Zealand#Salary_and_perquisites
http://news.gallup.com/poll/166211/worldwide-median-household-income-000.aspx
“When Putin came to power, he was in no position to stop the Oligarch’s from fleecing the country”
Most of those oligarchs are still in Russia, Stevem so your statement rings hollow. Not only did Putin not stop them from leaving, he’s enriched himself with their connivance.
You are supporting a corrupt oligarch.
My question is, what’s in it for you?
What a load of utter tosh. Nobody glorified life anywhere that I read? Putin has raised the quality of life for all Russians since he has been in power, I don’t think anyone is saying it is idyllic, where is?
Certainly not in the US or UK and with our neo liberal puppet leader in NZ we are going to carry on down the same path.
Putin has taken the oligarchs on, they are not his cronies.
Stop talking like a 60’s McCarthyist.
This is about NZ’s response to activities in the UK. Ardern has been an embarrassment. In her covert condemnation of Russia without proof. This is nothing to do with which country is the best.
“Putin has raised the quality of life for all Russians since he has been in power”
Really?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/22/millions-more-russians-living-in-poverty-as-economic-crisis-bites
“An average of 19.2 million Russians – or 13.4% of the population – were living last year on less than 9,452 roubles ($139) a month, the minimum subsistence level determined by the Russian government in the fourth quarter.”
https://www.opendemocracy.net/od-russia/ewa-dabrowska/debt-and-poverty
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/russia-is-a-mess-the-poverty-rate-is-soaring-and-only-10-of-85-regions-are-financially-stable-2017-01-31
I have been researching what life is like in contemporary Russia…
Via RT and Putin’s Facebook feed I’m guessing.
Well said, I thought I was reading the Guardian ffs.
Yes history does repeat.
But this situation may not happen again as it looks to be terminal at this stage.
The urgency to round up signatures from friendly states is not confirmation of Russia’s culpability , it is in place of evidence to compensate for the lack of it. “We all agree so it must be right”
God knows what pressure is put on Jacinda in this situation. The humiliation of evidence eventually demonstrating that Russia had nothing to do with it will unfortunately ensure that we will never know until it is ancient history.
But wouldn’t it have been nice if our new government could have awaited signing until the investigation was properly completed according to agreed international protocols.
D J S
It’ll be much the same as what Corbyn’s facing.
Can’t you just hear that little prick Espiner railroading Jacinda in to a corner
with ridiculous yes or no questions
” So do you think Putin has killed people?”
” So do you support Putin”
Corbyn should stick to his guns all the same, as he has over Chavez
Apparently this latest capitulation has made him “haemmorhage” however you spell it supporters
Jacinda could just say”I believe in the rule of law
The OPCW has protocols for dealing with this
We must not undermine the institutions that keep us from conflict and lead to resolution”
haemorrhage
Agree this whole thing smells more than a little fishy. For a start, this guy came from Russia in the first place, so wouldn’t it have a been a lot easier to “disappear” him there, as opposed to poisoning him in the UK? The fact that Theresa May has decreed that “Russia must have done it” is surely nonsense given the fact they still haven’t caught the actual perpetrator (i.e. the person that carried out the “hit”) and questioned him/her or even how he/she did it.
As you point out the recipe for Novichok is readily available (there is even a book for sale on Amazon that provides a recipe), so there is no possible way it is has been proven that the Novichok that was used was manufactured in Russia.
I’m not remotely saying Russia didn’t do it, merely pointing out there is imo still “reasonable doubt” that they did. Unfortunately, because May has now stated Russia is definitely responsible, I suspect a proper, full and impartial investigation is no longer possible.
I agree @ NITRIUM
Perhaps the fellow was himself about to do a ‘hit’ but instead bought himself a nice bouquet of woopsie daisies ? (American Dad).
How about this one: He was off to kill that other Russian fellow but spilled the bottle so other, back-up fellows off’ed the real target. Thus, 2x dead Russian spies and an opportunity for our vile lot to start a stoush for fun and profit?
And anything coming out of teresa may’s twisted face hole other than foul air, worms and lies would be nice. For a change.
The Wonderful West, of which we are a part, is gagging for the above stoush. And Russia is a perfect target to use up ordinance against to feed the Israeli arms industry.
We would be making a deeply grave mistake.
We can fuck with the Chinese, we can fuck with the Japanese, we can fuck with the Koreans, we can fuck with each other … but we must never, ever, fuck with the Russians. Their spherical thinking selves would kick our linear thinking arses into nuclear dust.
The future of all life on earth is now in the hands of may, trump and a freakish neo narcissistic sadist frenchman. Time to wrap myself up in tin foil and go to where there are the most UFO sightings and stick my thumb out.
INSIDE JOB; odd coincidence that Porton Down, the UK’s Ministry of Defence’s science & technology laboratory is near Salisbury. I long for the day when we’re mature & independent enough to stop letting our foreign masters pull the wool over eyes. Bugger off Australia, UK, USA, China etc, & take the citizens of your countries who’re pulling the strings within our shores with you.
With so many CCTV cameras in London it’s difficult to accept that Scotland Yard doesn’t have a good handle on who the terrorists are and have likely fled the UK. This is probably a minor detail I’d keep quite if I was the chief of Mi6 after a couple of billion dollar funding boosts.
Are swinging with the naysayers now. Fuck me, you little swinger.
If you’ve got a bellow 95 IQ I don’t want to know you. Like I said. Hop on the Twitter and I’ll debate you there. Your comments are irrelevant.
So let the ducking begin.
You forgot to add Frank that when the USSR disintegrated, and Yeltsin the tool of the US government became president the standard of living of the Russians dropped dramatically. The country was the subject of a disgusting pure free market experiment that resulted in many Russians living in and dying of poverty, the resources pillaged and the wealth of the country concentrated in the hands of a very few rich oligarchs. It was Putin coming to power that resulted in a huge improvement in the living standards of Russian people. You need to research this period of Russian life – 1990s, after the fall of the Soviet republic. If you don’t know what happened during this time then you will never know why people support Putin. You also missed the 27 million Russians who were killed during WW2. If it wasn’t for Russia defeating Germany, Germany would have won the war. Russia is more than just archipelagos, snow and substandard living conditions.
And re your comment;
My parents recall similar propaganda during Stalin’s reign. Same BS, different Dear Leader.
And I did not ” miss the 27 million Russians who were killed during WW2″. My grandmother was saved by a Red Army soldier, Winifred, so please file your anglo-saxon arrogance in the round bin where it belongs.
here’s a nice bit of propaganda for you Frank
Seen this in any of the major newspapers..anywhere, apart from here?
https://www.globalresearch.ca/un-acknowledges-russias-role-in-syrian-peace-process-moscows-humanitarian-aid-to-eastern-ghouta/5632577
I am not Anglo Saxon Frank. Ko Ngāti Porou me Ngapuhi ōku iwi.
what a dick
Whoops that wasn’t to you Frank. That was aimed at my fan boy Sam.
The act that anyone operates on twitter is an indication that their IQ must be below relatively low, Trump anyone?
What IQ is needed for twitter Sam.
I am surprised at twitter being your preferred place.
Relevance to what.
Discussion can be broad but slating others and intolerance of people who may be slower thinking, both have little to do with reasoning.
How about trying to keep it on-topic and discuss actual methodology of attack and propaganda and counter-propaganda so we can help recognize and fight the bullshit more effectively? 200 or so comments could have been replaced with emojis.
There’s a trick to the Kill It With Fire response; and that’s in making sure said fire can’t spread. If I wanted to scour something like, say, Twitter or Brietbart to give two oppositely-aligned examples of propaganda mills, my first steps are to create other, less-bad outlets that cater to the same audiance and offer a higher-grade quality of shill that you control. Once you’ve got your Chosen Outlet denied of a monopoly on an audiance, you can start teasing the audience into the light while using/advising your side’s top-tier news outlets to take potshots at the bottom-feeder you’re trying to kill. Once the monopoly on audience has been denied and the entire party/side/reason these guys are reposting propaganda has been denounced, your last step is to preform a hostile takeover and piece everything up and move it to another venue.
Fuck this up, though, and suddenly you’ve got a flaming martyr running around with a massive chip on the shoulder and hundreds of comments pissed away.
These are all a very stupid political games, being played by puppets and clowns.
The attempt to destabilize Russia following the breaching of the agreement between the US and Russia by the US very nearly succeeded -but ultimately failed, and Russia came out of the 1990s with a new determination to never be pushed around by the west again. As Putin put it: “Our biggest mistake was to trust the west.”
In the real world (not the fantasy world presented by the mainstream media) Britain is dependent on Russian gas and Russian coal to keep its dysfunctional economy going just a little longer. As is most of Europe.
Not only does Russia posses massive natural resources, it also has the most advanced weapons systems in the world, and is prepared to use them if attacked by the idiots that have inhabited most (all?) western governments for far too long.
Of course real Western power nearly collapsed in 2008, when the US puppet Sashkavilli (spelling? I always have trouble with that one, but he is clearly part of the corrupt western system, having subsequently been sent to Ukraine on a looting mission by the US) was left out to dry, following Georgia’s invasion of neighbouring states. After routiung the Georgians, the Russians took home every piece of military hardware they could move, and blew up what they couldn’t. And the US did nothing. Because it couldn’t. A similar scenario occurred when the US contemplated a seaborne invasion of Crimea and actually commenced sending warships towards the coast: oops, superfast, unstoppable missiles everywhere. And no US air cover.
And now we have the idiotic and criminal situation in Syria, where the US and Britain are attempting to project non-existent power….yet another fuck up in the making, which the Chinese will love to watch unfold. (It pays to remember that a substantial Chinese military attended the 70th anniversary of the end of the Great Patriotic War, in which Putin walked in the street with the common people….while the idiotic western leaders were conspicuously absent.)
Of course, with capitalist economies approaching the point of implosion -due to the dysfunctional monetary system and the dysfunction energy policies (how does that policy? Strength through ultra-fast depletion!!!), the criminals that run the show in the west have no choice but to keep playing their game of bluff until it all does implode.
Pity the children of the world. (Though clearly Russian children need less pity than most, since they have a leader who actually knows what he is doing.)
And that, so will some critics say, is exactly why Russia under its present form of government seems to think it can get away with murder, whether their agents or so were responsible for the Salisbury based poisonings or not.
Putin knows his strength, and he does not have to worry no matter what the UK and some western allies may do. “Trade” that is so often talked about consists much on such energy exports Russia does to the west (Europe), and some importing of industrial goods and food stuffs, that it needs.
Some of that has been hit by sanctions now. But yes, Western Europe is much dependent on Russian gas and oil.
It is uncertain whether Russia itself may be responsible for the attempted murders, but in all honesty, it cannot be ruled out, given the above facts.
There may of course also be rogue forces at play, who are not directly under Putin’s and his agencies’ control, conducting revenge attacks with nerve poison obtained long ago illegally.
The west is actually on the losing side of this, as Trump is already more or less on his way out (given Mueller’s recent steps in his investigation), he may fall like Nixon did, or somehow similarly.
May is hanging onto power by a thin thread, she does of course uses every bit of distraction to steer attention away from her stuffed up economic and social situation, given Brexit will lead to serious consequences, and her government not being able to offer many solutions to rescue the British economy, which will one day end up as a basket case, as many will.
The only ones watching with joy are the Chinese government and its officials.
Russia’s economy and exports:
https://tradingeconomics.com/russia/exports
https://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/rus/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia_in_the_European_energy_sector
https://www.ft.com/content/7b86f4be-f08e-11e7-b220-857e26d1aca4
Putin and Russian government officials and business leaders know full well, without Russia gas exports to Europe, many people in Germany, Italy, Netherlands and so would freeze in cold homes in winter, would have no gas to heat and cook with, that is the cold reality, and so Russia has little to fear from UK loud talk and ‘sanctions’ that are now and then imposed.
And then we have China and the New Silk Road/One Belt One Road. Which Russia is heavily involved in. China becoming a major customer for Russia’s gas amongst other things. Hopefully May pulls her head in as my boys are in England and it’s fricken cold over there at this time.
You will stop laughing when China drops NZ Inc from their preferred trading partner list of countries, and rather deals with corrupt and semi corrupt countries in Asia and other parts along their Great New Silk Road and Belt and Way networks.
But you will probably be happy living in a new world order, where China and Russia take over from the US and rule the world according to their values and ways of doing thing, and NZ Inc will become a true colony of those powers then.
China is the largest buyer of resources, technology and goods & services on the planet by a long way. Even if it’s labeled made in China every component was made over seas, shipped to China and assembled on the cheap. There’s even a Chines province remained USA just so they coulee label it made in USA.
So trade,me oncoming and forieng policy really dosnt matter. Those with the biggest guns make the rulz.
Because we’re much better with the current world order led by the imperialist, regime changing, Russia bating US and their western poodles? Get behind ya mongrel!! Yes you’re right, Jacinda should send some troops to Syria to help the “moderate” rebels on behalf of our buddies. All about being on the side of the money eh?
I made a silly mistake, I thought this was a left wing site. I’d be better of on Kiwiblog ffs.
Are you sober and rational, or not?
‘mongrel’, a word I object to.
Steven lost his privilege to comment here so I’ll say a few words for him. It’s actually good manners not to reply to him because he has no right of reply. The final word is Scarlett’s and Scarlett’s alone. Fair well Steve. Fair well.
I think I would. Heard of the Wolfowitz doctrine? supportive of American Hegemony? Heard that the US is trillions of dollars in debt and can not possibly hope to repay their debts? Heard of Quantitative Easing and paper $$ the US prints off with no backing apart from the fact the US $ is the reserve currency/petro dollar? Heard of this list of wars the US has been involved in? Have you heard that 50% of the US lives in poverty? Have you heard that congressmen and women, senators etc are beholding to the rich and monied? Have you heard Trump and I could go on. So yes. If Russia and CHina are seeking a multi polar world where they seek to NOT interfere in the governance of other countries then I’m fine with that. And by the way, China is the best market for the fruit we send overseas. Russia would be too but Jacinda has deemed that Russia was the culpable party in the nerve gas incident. So what were you saying about for the “corrupt and semi corrupt countries in Asia”? Really? I think you need to start looking at our own ‘allies’ before you start pointing fingers.
Considering this topic is about a war crime committed on UK soil, with the evidence so far it’s difficult to connect even Russia to it. My initial reaction was what has Putin done now. But as time goes on, the push to blame Putin ahead of any concrete evidence just makes the whole event look flaky.
Think you’re right- it doesn’t pass the sniff test, it hasn’t right from the start; there’s nothing in it for Putin – the timing is too clumsy.
Investigation is clumsy as well. But most of all the money spent on all this counter espionage and surveillance has been rendered inoperable on so many occasions across multiple countries and events. Follow the money, follow the money and it will always lead to the truth.
Hagar. One wonders how smart skripal is when after he turns against his former employer, he then according to the news media has his London address in the phone book and goes walkabouts in Salisbury. It just doesn’t make sense.
Hagar – naivete? Sheer stupidity?
I’d be hazarding a guess that every other Russian defector in the West may be reconsidering their position about now, and “going underground”.
By the way, this sums it up nicely:
‘Assuming mankind finds a way not to destroy itself in the near future and assuming that there will still be historians in the 22nd or 23rd centuries, I bet you that they will look at the AngloZionist Empire and see the four following characteristics as some of its core features: lies, willful ignorance, hypocrisy, and hysterics. ‘
‘When Dealing with a Bear, Hubris is Suicidal’
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/48967.htm
Further but on the illegitimacy suggested in this article of Russian democracy and thence Putin’s legitimacy as their president… I’m no expert on the Russian electoral system, but I am prepared to wager that if Putin was known in any western democracy as he is known in Russia , and standing for election as president or PM he would be elected in every single one. Think along those lines for a minute and see if you can doubt it.
D J S
FFS, any potential opponent dragged before a court under dubious reasons, and charged with trumped up charges. Others silenced by biased state funded media.
What a wonderful ‘democracy’, Putin is close to showing results as they used to have in the USSR, how democratic were they?
I think some here have totally lost the plot now.
It would obviously surprise you to know that Putin has over 80% support of his people. Nalvany the great hero of the liberal, Westernmedia, has about 3%. Putin has lifted his country from abject poverty after the Yelstein years when a disgusting pure free market experiment was carried out by the West, intent on raping the country of its resources and establishing a few super rich oligarchs who in turn did their best to steal the rest of Russia’s riches. While I am sure Putin has his faults he is defintely intent on ensuring Russia will never be cowered again by the neocons that run the world. He attempts to bring the oligarchs into line, lift the living conditions of the people, stamp out corruption and develop Russia into a country that other countries respect. Because of his success he is constantly demonised and Russia is isolated. After all it was only a few years ago McCain called Russia a gas station and Obomber and the US military arrogantly stated that Russia was infinitly inferior to the US. They’ve had to think again. Once again there is no evidence re Putin kills journalists or pussy cats. As far as state sponsored media haveyou ever watch Russian tv that Russians watch? Much more robust that our. Silly giggling goons. Have you watched RT? Far more robust and honest than our silly, giggling goons. Do you listen to and watch our state sponsored media? You Know of course that the ‘news’ we get is one sided and censored hence your one eyed view on Putin. Democracy? Poof! The great land of the free is a shinning example Isn’t it? Democracy? Our ‘type’ is very much over rated me thinks. Works great Though if you have a lot of money.
Spot on. If there is a source of ‘news’ one can be sure NOT TO BELIEVE it is the western media. And that statement is true for all the television channels, all the radio stations and all the so-called newspapers, all the ‘community papers’ and all the magazines. Manipulation of the populace, censorship of actual facts, and false narratives are the fare of the ‘free’ western world. I suspect about 1% of the populace recognises that. Which is why there is no hope for the ‘free world’. Or any of the world for that matter.
The transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich will continue; the squandering of precious fossil fuels will continue; the destruction of local environments and the global environment will continue.
I will remind commenters that the Guardian used to be a reputable newspaper when it was under the control of a trust but is now a source of propaganda.
I will remind commenters that the BBC has been caught out several times -perhaps I should say a multitude of times- fabricating ‘news’ stories, and is untrustworthy.
The fact is, the western news media is used by the scumbags at the top to mislead the general populace and keep them believing in phony political narratives and phony economic narratives, and keep them believing in the gross inequity that characterises western nations.
So we are then supposed to fully rely on Russia’s RT and on Chinese Media instead, is that what you are suggesting?
Or what is your recommended source for information, that is more ‘independent’?
That’s why we have people like Martyn, Frank and Chris’s Trotter who have a deep understanding of history, so when they see something on MSM they instinctively know, and say HEY y’all, this ain’t right. And then bring something to the table more than reactionary blogging.
I pity the fools.
You’ve made an impressive list of journalists with integrity. And then there’s a kiwi version.
How about Journalists and historians?
Pilger, Chomsky, Seymour Hersh, Fisk, the Cockburns, GlennGreenwald, books that lay it all out like Wikileaks, going to source
How about looking at Andrei Nekrasov’s doco about Bill Browder, architect of the Magnitsky Act?
Oh, thats right , its verboten to watch that doco
Nah, its easier to just watch CNN, BBC etc, after all they’ve never lied
‘Verboten’ is stuff in countries like China and Russia, that may threaten the government and institutions there. All those publications are freely available here and elsewhere, as I last noticed.
It is probably more the laziness of certain people to rely on MSM rather than do some further research and reading, what is the issue here.
BBC may have made the odd mistake, their focus is rather ‘mainstream’ as part of the MSM, but there are still many programs and news that are still worth listening to and watching.
Some here prefer ‘infowars’ and the likes though, as I noted. How reliable is such a source?
you haven’t been keeping up
look up “The Magnitsky Act-behind the scenes “I’ll make it easier for you
http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/06/10/millionaire-tries-to-shut-down-screening-of-documentary-claiming-to-tell-the-true-story-of-russias-missing-230-million-putin-serg
Google Nekrasov, he’s no lover of Putin, he’s made several films and docos slamming him.He’s a liberal, and was a friend of Nemstov
You should try watching RT sometimes Marc. You might find that it is not state sponsored propaganda but well evidenced contrary narrative to the one we receive from our main stream state and corporate sponsored ‘media’.
Have watched it, have watched some documentaries on You Tube also, also some live streams, some is good, but do not forget the ulterior motives behind its funders:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RT_(TV_network)
“RT (formerly Russia Today) is a Russian international television network funded by the Russian government.[6][7] It operates cable and satellite television channels directed to audiences outside of Russia, as well as providing Internet content in various languages, including English, Spanish and Russian.”
“Foundation
The creation of RT was a part of a larger public relations effort by the Russian Government in 2005 that was intended to improve the image of Russia abroad.[32] RT was conceived by former media minister Mikhail Lesin,[33] and Russian president Vladimir Putin’s press spokesperson Aleksei Gromov.”
Who FUNDS them?!
Funded by who, Steve? Follow the money trail, mate, follow the money!!
And Putin has strings he can pull, so the law was changed, so that he could get another term as President, and once his extra (next) term is up, he can simply be Prime Minister for a term, and then run as President again.
That man is a control freak, he has (with his loyal followers or supporters and bureaucrats) changed the laws and system in the Russian Federation to ensure no opponent ever has a chance to rise.
It is a little different to the US way of politics, but it is just as effective, ensuring only those that are condoned will end up in power.
Trump was an outlier in the US, but his rule in the US proves he is just another one of the 1-per cent elite.
Putin has created a new system of elite bureaucrats, selected oligarchs and other business leaders running the show there, with a dominant political party of nationalists, and with state controlled media any dissenter does instantly get discredited.
I feel sorry for Snowden though, he lives like a prisoner in a golden cage. He is useful to Putin and Russia at the moment, hence they look after him. But he has no way out of his prison like cage, in Moscow, and is losing contacts with the people he used to be associated with.
Snowden is now a kind of looked after, useful ‘hostage’ of Putin’s Russia.
Where is your evidence re Snowden. My impression the people who are keeping him caged reside in Washington
Why is he only issued a temporary special visa, needing to be reviewed and renewed every year or so?
He cannot move anywhere much these days, he is caught in between two nasty super powers who are seriously at logger heads, and they stop him leaving Russia also, as he would soon be arrested and sent to the US.
What about internet freedom in Russia?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_Russia
http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2017/04/russia_is_trying_to_copy_china_s_internet_censorship.html
I wonder how Snowden feels about all that.
He was granted asylum in 2013, with the period extended in 2015 and now until 2020
He is eligible to apply for Russian citizenship if he so wishes
https://edition.cnn.com/2017/01/18/europe/russia-snowden-asylum-extension/index.html
Yes, good for Russia, to have such a valuable resident in their country.
One is an enemy at home, welcome by another nation considered hostile at his home.
The same applies to the man who spied for Russian services and UK’s MI5 at the same time, now an enemy in Russia, offered residency and refuge in Salisbury, UK (recently attempted to be killed).
Of course not a good comparison, but it shows how such situations have to be treated with caution.
Seth Rich was not “assassinated”, Steve. He was the victim of a random crime in Washington DC, one of the most crime-ridden cities in the US.
Hussein was executed. Gaddafi was killed by a mob.
JFK – the book’s still open on that one.
Opposing the oligarchs of Putin’s Russia is not “russiaphobia”, it is stating a point of fact and taking a stand.
It may well be true that “Rich was involved with the release of documents to WikiLeaks”. Wouldn’t surprise me in the least.
But it’s a long bow to then link his murder with the DNC as some kind of conspiracy.,
Because here’s the thing, Steve; the same whistleblowing that Seth Rich was engaged in would make it damned hard to then prevent another whistleblower coming forward to reveal details of any such alleged “hit”.
Whistleblowing is the main reason why so many bizarre conspiracies are so unlikely. In our post-Snowden world, conspiracies of such vast magnitude would last for a day before someone blew the whistle.
Do you think there is an endless supply of martyrs desperate to follow Seth Rich into Jannah Frank?
D J S
No thanks. I prefer you present your own evidence. It’s not up to others to prove your assertions.
So no evidence then?
Ok, got it.
“Research it yourself. There is more that enough to sift through.”
When I read comments like that, Steve, I’m left with the inescapable conclusion that you won’t present evidence because you CAN’T.
If you had the evidence, you’d be sharing it with us with gusto.
Put up or shut up. It’s not that hard.
Well
strictly speaking,Frank
That case has never been resolved
Its guessing
I remember once traveling by train from West Germany through the then German Democratic Republic (GDR, in German ‘DDR’), when there was the Cold War in Europe, all the way into Berlin.
I can tell you, that was an experience I will never forget, seeing the hostile border patrols, the cold, unfriendly, harassing East German guards with their trained German shepherd dogs and so go through the train, checking on every passenger.
Also will I not forget the Iron Curtain, which you may say was created by the East Germans and the Soviet Union and its allies, to “protect” their people from western ‘invaders’ or whatsoever.
While I am highly critical of western countries, especially what goes on in the US and also the UK, I do not fall for the black and white comparisons that some seem to be making here, also kind of treating Putin and similar quasi autocrats as some kind of hero for their people.
I do not believe all that is critically said about Putin, but I do not give that man that much credit, as some here seem to be doing.
The truth is often a little different to people’s perception, and what I read in your comments gives me enough reason to worry about your reliance on what you deem to be the ‘truth’.
I travelled through East Germany during the cold war. At a border checkpoint the muffler fell off my Vaulkswagon van. The noise of my motor was deafening. I jumped out of my van with a length of coathangar wire as Kiwis do, slid under the back, and refixed the muffler in seconds. I was just congratulating myself on my Kiwi mechanics skills when I felt an object pressed into my face.It was a machine pistol, with a singularly nasty East German border guard on the end of it.I was pushed unceremonially back to the drivers seat . It was hardly a good introduction to the East Germany Democratic Republic Workers Paradise .
I love Russia and met many lovely Russians. But like any people, they are prone to being brainwashed by the media of their home-country. As many Russians are patriots, some nationalists, they tend to fail to see that their ‘leadership’ is not quite as good and honest as they may think.
As for your ‘assassinations’ list, some were not assassinated as such, some cases are not proved, others are the result of people’s anger, not necessarily conspiracy theory stuff.
And while the US and other powers have responsibility for past atrocities and dirty hit jobs, so do the Russians and Chinese, I have no doubt about it.
Starting from Ruth Richardsons Mother of all budgets, successive governments have not only harmed the capabilities and outputs of government policies and the departments that perform them, they’ve harmed The New Zealand Defence Force as well.
The is literally nothing left to cut from NZDF. If the planned $20bln recapitalisation does not go ahead as planned, then serious consideration would have to be given to dispanding her all together.
Next time there is a diplomatic or climate catastrophe New Zealand may not be asked to participate because we are increasingly viewed as liability. Our capabilities just can not be sustained and every time we deploy away, even on humanitarian missions we are increasingly having to rely on local resources because we can’t sustain the logistics.
You may be asking well why is this important and what does any of this have to do with what her talking about?
Well if you want New Zealand voice to be worth anything on the world stage and listened to we are going to have to pull our weight in the region.
**That was a paid political party broadcast authorised by V. Putin & Co.**
We’ll get an update on that tomorrow or Tuesday won’t we!
Here we go:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Russia
So they favour alliances or collaboration with right wing, nationalist parties in various European countries, I wonder why so many who consider themselves ‘left’ or ‘progressive’ here support such a party and their leading candidate, Putin?
So have many former ‘Labour’ party members standing for election in Auckland local body elections.
I am sure that the largest party in Russia (by members and votes) is not opposing Putin, and Putin is not opposing them, strange that, given past close ties.
NO, HEIL PUTIN:
His favoured party supports forces that are right leaning nationalists and includes white racists all over Europe, so give him the appropriate greeting, thanks.
Fascist, huh? So there we go – fascists are supporting Putin (as they do Trump). I think Steve’s comments (unless he’s playing silly buggers as an agent provocateur) speak volumes for how the far-right are fawning over Russia and it’s bare-chested, uber-wealthy “strong man”.
So steve, “heil Putin”???
So you’re a neo-nazi?
I gues The daily blog has become a magnet for neo-fascists. The fact you neo-fascists are supportingPutin speaks volumes about the corrupt dictatorship running Russia.
“Actually, Putin is standing as an independent”
LOL!
You eally can’t be that naive, surely Steve???
Priss
??
https://www.ft.com/content/fd9ac41b-85da-3562-b07b-4c819978766b
Putin stands as an independent
And the results are;
https://www.facebook.com/dmitry.orlov.9461/posts/2037704486270601
“If you like Democracy, you’ll like Russia. 67.47% turnout, 76,67% Putin. In Crimea, 71.53% turnout; 92% Putin. “Separatist” Chechnya: 91.54% turnout, 93% Putin.” Dimitry Orlov.
And no-one was allowed to vote in the rest of Ukraine, there’s plenty of Russians in the west of Ukraine , my nephew came back from a business trip there6 myths ago with a splendid example.
If you believe that, Steve, you’ll believe anything.
Hillary Clinton can only dream of the 70% APPROVAL RATING that Putin gets Frank. You are never going to be able to salute your T.V set and say joyously, Good Morning Madam Hillary President” like you planned to!!!
LOL!
For real?
Even our own Dear Leader Key could only get 55.8% in October 2009, Pete. I’m amazed you can parrot Kremlin propaganda without a hint of self-awareness how ridiculous it sounds.
North Korea’s Kim Jong-un gets 100% approval rating. How seriously would you take that?
Try a critical look for once instead of slavish devotion. (It’s what we demanded from John Key’s supporters.)
That is where he’s polling Frank.
At what point of a polling exercise, or an election do you assert that misrepresentation takes place?
Do you claim that people are intimidated into answering a certain way? What happens to those that don’t comply? Are the numbers falsified? At what point? Who do you think the Russians do want to be their president so much more than you think they want Putin? Where do you get your so much superior information?
D J S
No no. Please quite calling elections a democratic procedure. Under tyrants they are anything but manufactured results.
And you would know because? You label Putin a Tyrant but look at the ridiculous bullying that you have subjected me to on this page. And yes my comments are moderated before they are posted so no need to feel you have to be the protector and write absolute nonsense while you do so.
Fifteen years ago, Bush and Blair were telling us that they had absolute proof that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction.
Tony B Liar.
Of course, as ‘Peace Emissary’ for the UN -what a joke, and an indication of just how corrupt the UN is- Tony B Liar was able to keep his snout in the public trough AND trip around the Middle Est doing self-serving finance and energy deals, thereby increasing his personal wealth immensely.
With all respect, NZ Inc has NO ‘free trade deal’ with Russia, as all that happened so far was negotiations, ended in 2014, for known reasons (Ukraine crisis, Crimea, also Malaysia Airline shooting).
As for the responsibility for the attempted murder of a double spy and his daughter in the UK, yes, it is murky and questionable what exactly happened. But even then, Russia and Putin have not much to lose, as Western Europe is rather dependent on gas supplies from Russia, if they turn that off, economies such as in Germany would suffer greatly.
That is part of the ‘trade’ still going on between the West and Russian Federation, besides of other trade that existed for decades.
The difference that the NZ government faces is that Winston wanted to negotiate a FTA with Russia and some former USSR member states in Central Asia. It is hard to use the existing trade, partly curtailed now, that the UK and Continental Europe still have with Russia, as that has been in place before all happened that led to sanctions against Russia.
Continuing to strive towards a FTA with Russia under Putin in the face of controversy re the above, and the attempted murder of the spy and his daughter in the UK, and in face of past successful murders of other former spies and oligarchs, would not be that productive for NZ Inc to pursue.
Global realities would compel the NZ government to tread carefully. If they go ahead and negotiate a FTA with Russia, then this will lead to ‘traditional allies’ dropping NZ from ‘friendly priority treatment’.
So the NZ government is with Winston and Jacinda in between a rock and a hard place, no matter what they do, there will be scream of protest, from various sides.
It would be damned stupid though to blindly follow the UK propaganda and actually irresponsible, stupid policy they now have towards Russia, and to not let internationally accepted processes take their course.
This is where Jacinda will have to make a call sooner or later. So far it seems she has caved in to UK and Five Eyes member nation pressures, see also her interview on Newshub Nation, where she did though do reasonably well, but gave too unclear answers re a number of challenges. One day she has to take positions on these.
Well said. I think her position has been taken up. She will go with whatever she is told to do. But good on her and Winston for thinking they could get out from under the claws of the deep state.
Go on to the Standard site if you can stomach the battle cries and putrid bile against Russia
Nevertheless, there are many great comments and arguments and valiant attempts to inject a little reason in to the debate
Some valuable links and information
Surprising and appalling, the derision for pacifism amongst some of the participants
I got banned for 2 weeks when trying to counter the warmongering by several posters.
Ohhh Lois, its the Jews? Its Israel isn’t it?
?
sshh
He’s a little bit …you know… not quite right …..in the head
look away
Ok. Shhhh every one. He’s sleeping.
@ I’m RIGHT?
Yes.
Very nasty offensive comment from I’M RIGHT whoever you are (Who are you?)
Why did the monitor allow this?
By the way, Jacinda did not only speak on this today, on Newshub Nation, she already caved in yesterday, according to the same channel:
http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2018/03/prime-minister-backs-united-kingdom-over-russia-nerve-agent-allegations.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9aIHopGntE
Arm twisting
It’s all the rage for government agencies to be assassinating people at present.
Peace prize recipient Obama had the most drone assassinations of any president, Blair lied about weapons of Mass destruction and joined in an illegal war on Iraq based on it, we are desperate for free trade with Saudi Arabia who like to crucify their teenage opponents and we had to kill a huge bunch of sheep in a desert and then pay millions to a Saudi business man, so I’m not sure why this assassination it’s such a big thing in the media.
If Russia did do it, UK and the world didn’t seem to care about it when Alexander Litvinenko was murdered. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexander_Litvinenko
Russia seem to be everyones favourite enemy these days. But they are defiantly not alone as a government in assassinating people. If the UK don’t like it, maybe have a look at what they are doing in the Middle East at present and their whole history!
I just hope any free trade agreement is about trade only, clauses to allow for social policy around climate change, no ISDS clauses, and government sanctioned people trafficking or political infiltration disguised as immigration.
The whole point of free trade should be we trade. If someone wants some milk, we can sell it. Not agreements to do the opposite and be a political tool to gain corporate wealth and political control on other countries.
See this is what I’m talking about. You can’t defend speculation with conjecture. Proper sources or reasoning beside even more speculations, its will expect you state as such : “This is me speculating. I have no source as of yet that allows me to back it up. Feel free to disregard.”
It shouldn’t have been this difficult to prove who the perps are in the worlds most surveilled city, London. And that’s a huge issue seeing as we still don’t know who they where. One picture tying the offenders to the crime scene would settle all this. But no one has that. Because if they had it there wanted pictures would be plastered all all over the world. And I ain’t going to be hypnotised into thinking what foreigners want me to think.
Steve, citing “Prisonplanet” is not a reliable source of information. That website itself may be a mouthpiece for a clandestine blackops disinformation agenda.
Your racist anti-semitic views have been noted, Steve. As is your fondness for far-right propaganda mouthpieces. So we can take it that you are a supporter of the far right yourself?
But aren’t you just being a wee bit racist Frank when you accuse me of being an Anglo Saxon (wrongly) in the crudest way? Now white people are to be spat at/on?
You are right, white man, Le Pen, Putin, Trump, yeah, yeah, you have shown your colours further above, you are one of the like-minded, some would call them fascists.
Salisbury. Not London.
But even Salisbury had considerable CCTV around the town center.
Ah yes. As Frank says. The crime was committed in Salisbury. I’m still a it pissed about the whole 5is budget boost. And you can bet your bottom dollar spy boss’s around the world will be using this for more funding.
Yes Save NZ
We have had enough internal experience of traitors and thieves weakening our nation by selling it on to foreigners and the obscenely wealthy – (I am referring to that deceiving liar John Key and that deceptive Saint Bill English) – without getting skinned more and more by others overseas.
It is bad enough having people like Miss Collins propping up China’s income – and failing to reduce spiraling crime in New Zealand. A total incompetent.
The whole of the National Party laughing and giggling at the thousands of New Zealanders lacking Housing. Laughing at their low wages.
Laughing and giggling at the incredibly high rents the people have to pay. While they the Nationals rub their monied hands in glee. Openly – shamelessly. Rats
The Media – what an appalling bunch they are – have done nothing to call out the wrong doing of our traitors. They are a privilged unknowing, uncaring smart arse scum.
What USA does, what the sad class driven Uk does, what China does what Australia matters not – let us trade without fear or favour. Let us build our houses – no matter how much the National Party scorns us.
Decency – not Nationalism – is the real New Zealand
I don’t buy the official scenario for a second, the appearance of the “poisoned on Queen St” guy confirmed it
it is indicative that Jacinda was sucked in immediately into the deep state nonsense, like Clark before her, for goodness sake hang back, develop as independent a foreign policy as possible for New Zealand
http://cluborlov.blogspot.co.nz/2018/03/false-flags-for-newbies.html
NOT the smug propagandising neoMcCarthyist mainstream media ( especially RNZ )
…this is the same scurrilous mainstream media that propagandised for the war on Iraq on false pretenses
…at least Helen Clark did not support the mainstream media propaganda for the invasion of Iraq…Jacinda Ardern, who worked with Tony Blair seems to be different:
‘Publicity murder?’
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LF3Fue4UViM
“It appears” and “highly likely” were the words used by UK Prime Minister Theresa May, who blamed Russia for the poison attack on a former Russian intelligence officer turned British spy. Claims are made and threats flaunted. Of course all without evidence.
CrossTalking with Alexander Mercouris, Charles Shoebridge, and Annie Machon.”
…and
‘Corbyn warns against ‘McCarthyite intolerance of dissent’ over Russia accusations’
https://www.rt.com/uk/421442-jeremy-corbyn-russia-skripal/
…”The Labour leader once again drew a parallel between the Sergei case and the UK’s decision to intervene in Iraq alongside the US in 2003, which was based on flawed intelligence that Saddam Hussein held weapons of mass destruction (WMD)…
…and
‘Galloway: Russia could not benefit from Skripal poisoning’
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7snm1Yvwuu4
…and
‘Rasmussen: “UK’s got a complete disregard for intl rule of law in Skripal case” ‘
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaPRgdtUm_Q
…and
‘Britain’s presumption of guilt towards Russia invites conflict and chaos’
https://www.rt.com/op-ed/421291-skripal-uk-russia-may-poisoning/
…and
‘Defense secretary’s reaction shows UK is worrying, has something to hide – Moscow’
https://www.rt.com/news/421388-uk-worrying-defense-secretary/
…and
‘UK to build £48mn chemical weapon center to protect from ‘hostile’ activity’
https://www.rt.com/uk/421367-chemical-weapon-defence-centre/
( as one commentator said: “It’s all starting to unravell now – clearly UK Gov requires a false flag event to justify cost of a new chemical weapon centre!.”)
‘Novichok – toxic questions about chemical at center of Skripal saga’
https://www.rt.com/news/421200-uk-novichok-agent-allegations/
…and
‘Secretive UK army base analyzing nerve agent used on ex-Russian spy mired in controversy’
https://www.rt.com/uk/420800-spy-russia-gas-facility/
“A secretive UK army base analyzing the nerve agent thought to be used on ex-Russian double agent Sergei Skripal has long been at the center of controversy. It has even been accused of testing chemicals on humans…
The center hoping to gather those facts has itself been shrouded in mystery for decades. Porton Down, officially named the Defence Science and Technology Laboratory, is one of Britain’s most controversial military facility. The army center for research into chemical and biological weapons, located near Salisbury, was founded in 1916 to counter German gas attacks in World War I. In the 1950s, scientists there developed non-lethal CS gas, better known as tear gas, as well as the deadly nerve agent VX.
The center tells the outside world its focus is to improve defense, aiming to improve equipment and tests in order to protect troops and the population. But the secretive state facility has been at the center of accusations of experiments on animals and humans…
In 1999, police probed allegations of testing that may have endangered the lives of soldiers without their knowledge, according to AFP. The people in the case claimed to have been forced into Cold War-era chemical testing.
Nine years later, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) awarded 360 former members of the armed forces compensation of £3 million ($4.2 million). However, no criminal prosecutions were brought…
In a June 2016 press release titled ‘The truth about Porton Down’ the MoD admitted successful testing “could not, currently, be achieved without the use of animals.” It added it is “committed to reducing the number of animal experiments.”
Porton Down employs 3,000 scientists and has an annual budget of £500 million ($695 million). Around 20,000 people have taken part in studies over the decades. It says without human volunteers’ involvement “we could not have developed the highly effective clothing and medical countermeasures that our armed forces rely on.”
“[Porton Down] has always been operated to the highest ethical standards of the day,” the MoD added.”
Can you put these links up on the Standard to counter the pro-war propaganda there.
As well as this link.
George Galloway. Watch the first 14 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDLxrf0gcpc
‘ ‘Poison storm, gas cuts & Cold War II’: How MSM lost the plot over Salisbury attack’
https://www.rt.com/uk/421508-salisbury-skripal-cold-war/
“Diplomatic relations between Russia and Britain have nosedived in the aftermath of the Sergei Skripal poisoning. Media outlets in the UK and around the world are scrambling over themselves to declare a second Cold War.
British tabloid The Daily Mirror led the charge with a front page that screamed “Cold War II: Putin vows revenge as PM kicks out 23 Russian spooks in poison storm.” And the paper didn’t stop there, emphasizing its hot take by adding: “Britain is braced for Cold War II after Prime Minister Theresa May expelled 23 Russian spies.”
Not to be outdone in the alarmist stakes the Daily Star’s front page read “Putin: I’ll turn off your gas”, while The Sun’s said “Russian crisis ramps up,” beneath a story about a man who claims to be on Russian President Vladimir Putin’s “hit list.”…
(not to different from New Zealand’s mainstream media ….the same media that cheered on the invasion of Iraq )
The media is used to strongarm the politicians in to a position where its electoral suicide to go against them
They set up the talking points and manipulate us all to seeing the world their way
Murdoch has bragged about being the Kingmaker
How disingenuous is this
http://www.euronews.com/2011/07/19/rupert-murdoch-the-kingmaker-in-british-politics
Murdoch, along with Dick Cheney, James Woolsey ex Cia head, Rothschild,
and Larry Summers all have major interests in Genie Energy, currently drilling in the Golan Heights
Hmmm
I guess they have skin in the Syrian conflict which may reflect in how its presented in the media
It is obvious that this has been carried out by the west to stir along the Russophobia, as all the other efforts are falling over.
Will the truth ever come out? Probably, but it won’t be believed, as per usual, because the damage has now been done by our tsunami of propaganda.
I am very disappointed in Jacinda Blair and hold out no hope for this government now. Pity. Meet the new boss- same as the old.
I must say it’s a relief to see I’m not the only person who is as mystified by Jacinda jumping on this Bomb movie plot bandwagon as I was about her jumping on the TPP bandwagon.
Chinese colonialism is going to be the driving cause of No Zealand Wars II.
https://croakingcassandra.com/2018/03/16/what-do-we-want-with-the-belt-and-road/
The Chinese colonial name for No Zealand is Xin Xilan Get used it if you’re not prepared to fight, with brutality and ruthlessness if necessary.
Castro: You remind me of a character from the American Wild West circa 1800 who is surrounded by hostile wild Indians. He has had his horse shot from under him. There are three bullet holes in his hat.There is an arrow sticking out of his arse. And he points to the horizon and says, Beware! The Chinese are coming!!!
I feel sorry for Jacinda having to deal with this bullshit but what would you do if your intelligence advisers suggest a certain course. 5eyes are loyal to Washington and London, NZ only comes third
The poisoning in the UK can be put down to a propaganda move against Russia to soften up the public for a strike against Damascus. Now the Syrians and Russians have liberated East Ghouta the USA can no longer disrupt life in Damascus with random shelling and an election will be possible. This is the last thing the USA wants as, guess who, will win.
https://ejmagnier.com/2018/03/16/the-regional-international-demarcation-line-in-daraa-is-approaching-flashpoint/
TV1 had video of the hordes leaving Ghouta which as usual they were twisting to imply they were going to persecution under Assad but one boy gave the V sign to the camera so he at least was pleased with the victory of the Syrian Army. The way NZ media has become shallow propagandists for Washington is shameful.
Ike
I think that now the corridors are working and the population is able to start escaping to the safety of the Syrian government’s controlled area,and the Syrian army has taken back 70% of the rebel held territory in Gouta, the horse has bolted as far as US thinking they can get away with using their alleged protection as a pretext to bomb Damaskus.
Furthermore Lavrov has made it clear that Russia will not allow that to happen. So it would escalate to “the end”.
My partner just made the suggestion that Trump’s recent personnel changes might have been deliberately timed and initiated in order to disrupt this very action, allowing the moment to pass using the only power he actually has. And ads that the people appointed are so offensive and their records so ugly that they will not be approved by congress, which he might already have known.
This would blow my theory above that he is about to resign out of the water ,and attribute to him a level of art and resource that very few would suspect , but an interesting idea.
D J S
Yes, the V-sign, I am sure the German camp guards in Auschwitz also came out with the ‘V-sign’ when the US soldiers arrived to liberate the camp. Do you seriously think that the millions of refugees that left their homes, many their country, are all ‘terrorists’ and ‘extremists’, that fled from the great and lovely Syrian state run under the Assads?
Do you really believe the people stayed in Eastern Ghouta for all those years, under siege, because they were all held hostage by the ‘extremists’, waiting to be liberated by the Syrian Arab Army and secret services?
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/05/syria-civil-war-explained-160505084119966.html
I dismay how some here defend Assad, Putin, Ghaddafi and others, as some kind of saints and heroes for the underdogs.
This old west=bad, east=good comparison is idiotic, I think.
I do not want to defend Jacinda Ardern, but I think she is probably poorly advised and under immense pressure from the forces of the state agencies here, and especially their ‘allies’ in the US, UK and Australia, also by the MSM asking hard questions.
We are truly in a polarised world again, just like in the Cold War times, and blindly taking sides is the most stupid thing to do now.
People who find themselves in the middle of a war often find it prudent to go somewhere else irrespective of which side they empathise with if any. They fled the civil war, not the Assad government. They didn’t flee the “regime” before the country was engulfed in war, which would have been much safer. The terrorists and extremists stayed there to fight the government ( or more correctly moved there to fight the government).
” I dismay how some here defend Assad, Putin, Ghaddafi and others, as some kind of saints and heroes for the underdogs.
This old west=bad, east=good comparison is idiotic, I think.”
It isn’t for us to judge Assad , Putin or Gaddafi it’s for the Syrians the Russians and the Libyans to judge them. And it’s not west is bad east is good or vice-versa, it’s east is east and west is west and never the twain should seek to impose their ideas on the other.
D J S
“its east is east and west is west and never the twain should seek to impose their ideas on the other”
Thank you DJS..thats perfect
I totally believe in that
Having heard many reports on Syrians in European countries, accepted there as refugees, numbering hundreds of thousands, none were there expressing support for Assad, how strange that is.
Or are they all ‘terrorists’ hiding from the justice system in Syria?
They do not seem to be extremists, as most wear western dress, are casual in their conduct and well educated, cherishing also some western culture, like their own.
And the millions in Turkey, Jordan, Lebanon and so forth, are they all there, because of the fighting, while the Syrian government still holds a lot of territory and major cities?
Why then did they not flee to the parts of Syria, where Assad, his SAA forces and secret services reign?
Marc
By far the most have fled to government controlled parts of Syria. And how did they get “well educated”?
They came from a civilised peaceful country. And most will go back there when the terrorists have been quelled.
Some will have fled out of Syria when it was unclear that anywhere in Syria would be safe. Before Russia came in Assad was loosing ground everywhere. Hundreds of thousands are coming back now to the Government controlled areas.
D J S
So you are in the midst then, fighting for whom? Volunteering for Assad and his henchmen?
“If you intend to come through my property, it’ll be over my dead body.”
I note MY property, so you do not believe in a social and respectful kind of society, where property is better shared, and where violence is not the kind of way to deal with people who may enter a person’s property.
That is sad, it tells me a bit about your true character though.
Go back to Whaleoil, you may feel more at home there!
Sorry Marc, but I’m not going to have Al Jazeera explain to me the Syria “civil war”. Qatar most definitely has skin in the game and Al Jazeera is owned by the Qatari govt, founded by a member of the Qatari royal family who remains as its chairman
Their depiction of the war in Syria is totally partisan.
Great docos , talk shows ets, but no , I’ll be taking their Syria stuff with a large rock of salt
The whole thing is a joke … being played on us.
China a virtual dictatorship? President Xi has only had his term limits removed. He can be removed at any time by the party.
Maybe this is not the system of Government I would favour but it sure seems to be working for the Chinese. Millions lifted from poverty, soon to be the worlds largest economy
“While American Presidents hire and fire their administrative teams, make war, pardon, imprison or assassinate enemies Chinese leaders, even Mao, are board chairmen only. They can set agenda and direct discussion but, ultimately, must follow to the votes of the seven-man Steering Committee, none of whom they chose or can dismiss–and virtually all Steering Committee decisions are unanimous.”
This is a Quote from Godfree Roberts referenced in this podcast:
https://soundcloud.com/44-days/western-racismhypocrisy-foaming-rabid-over-chinas-constitutional-changes-c-rising-r-sinoland
“China a virtual dictatorship? President Xi has only had his term limits removed. He can be removed at any time by the party.”
And who can remove the party, if they are not what the people trust anymore? Elections seem to be having a different meaning in Mainland China, you can only vote for candidates from that ONE party, I note.
We are now at a moment like the assassination of the Arch-Duke in Sarajevo that started the first World War. Britain is hysterically calling out the drums of war, jingoism screams from the obedient MSM. All must fall into line to unquestionably support the Western narrative. On Q+ A an ex-National MP twerp brays “Russia and North Korea are the only countries that poison their enemies.” Hullo? First of all the Russian charge is not proven. Secondly Good old N.Z. instead attacks Afghan villages , slaughtering innocent men , women and children, and then refuses an independent enquiry! [ Nicky Hager]
Russia has declared that the U.S is training Syrian rebels on the border of Jordan with truck loads of chlorine cannisters , to perpertrate another false flag chemical attack incident. U.S. warships are on standby in the Mediterranean for the purpose of immediately attacking the Assad government facilities and infrastructure. But this time Russia has declared that she will not stand idly by! Get your popcorn and peanuts and reserve the best seats. The show is about to begin!!!
When conservative parties think they might lose to a socialist, aka Trump/May they want a diversion and to turn to war to keep the masses thinking it’s not an internal problem their housing/health/income/freedom is going backwards by their government actions and laws and want to blame the actions of foreign powers.
P.S. Putin is probably keen too to keep power by putting on a military show as is North Korea.
Great news for China, they will own the world after the other former/super powers spend all their money on pointless wars and posturing with no purpose.
No. What we are seeing is a puppet show, put on by the psychopaths and sociopaths that constitute western governments.
I recall the narrative that ‘the US was on the verge of invading Iran’: that commenced around 2004. 14 years later, there is still n o invasion.
Real power is unseen, well hidden and well protected ‘behind the curtain’.
Forget the politicians or anything they say; they are just put there to provide the illusion of choice, to provide the illusion of representation. Whichever party occupies the offices of government, the policies are essentially the same. And there is no accountability.
The last thing the real power players want is a ‘proper war’, a real all-out confrontation that messes up everything. They want to keep things just as they are…….money created out of thin air to provide for luxury yachts and private resorts, country houses country estates, golf courses, horse racing and international shopping. And they want the masses to continue to be subjected to the kind of incremental decline in living standards and quality of life that has characterized recent decades -the kind of incremental decline that does not trigger revolution.
I suggest you study baseline shift, whereby each generation accepts what it sees around it as normal because the people of each generation know no different. Yet the difference from generation to generation is actually enormous. For instance, when I was born world population was just over 2 billion; it now approaching 8 billion. Equally frightening is that when I was born atmospheric CO2 was about 310 ppm, just 30 ppm above the pre-industrial level; now it is 410 ppm, 130 ppm above the pre-industrial level. And most of the jungles and forests that characterized places like Indonesia are gone, replaced by palm oil plantations. The seas and oceans that were full of fish in the 1950w have been largely stripped bare. And they are now overheating like never in human history, cause all kinds of weather pattern instability. .
One of the most scary statistics I am aware of is the population growth of Saudi Arabia, which has grown from around 4 million (when I was born) to about 32 million! And in the 1950s most of those 4 million Saudis lived without cars or air conditioning. Yet if you were to ask a Saudi today, I suspect the vast majority would regard what they see around them as perfectly normal.
Yeah right! Where did you dream this one dream?
Pete has made some extraordinary claims on other issues. Very few of which he can back up evidentially.
The most recent was his claim that NASA scientists had deliberately fudged satellite climate data. He later had to admit that claim to be false;
ref: https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2018/01/16/why-are-fairfax-pimping-for-climate-deniers/#comment-414599
There’s more. Until challenged, Pete had to admit;
“
ref: https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2018/01/16/why-are-fairfax-pimping-for-climate-deniers/#comment-414963
Pete is not credible with (some/many) of his more questionable claims.
On this post we are discussing the incident with Russia and the N.Z. response. You have nothing useful to say Frank, so you dredge up an unrelated topic like climate change. When we have a climate change post I will be happy to debate the topic with you. I am bemused that you have to have to resort to such desperate tactics!!!
Perhaps ‘quality control’ of comments applied by Frank in a very frank and transparent manner? Hence the examples from another post on another comment.
What’s the matter, Pete? Embarrassed by your past comments? I’ve read your climate change BS as well and the unsubstantiated claims you fling around with glee.
Frank has applied his magnifying glass over a whole bunch of people since I’ve started reading his blogposts. He references everything to an OCD level (no offence, Frank). Suck it up, Pete.
““Russia has declared that the U.S is training Syrian rebels on the border of Jordan with truck loads of chlorine cannisters , to perpertrate another false flag chemical attack incident.”
Can you substantiate that allegation, Pete?? That’s a damned serious allegation to make. Let’s see the evidence.
The same could be said for you too Frank.
Win, unlike you, I do hold hold up political oligarchs (Russian, Western, or otherwise) as “heroes”.
Your hero-worship of a corrupt despot kind of disqualifies you as someone even remotely non-partisan.
Perhaps he dreamed it here:
https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/toxic-substances-found-in-opposition-forces-stronghold-syrian-govt/
or here:
http://www.presstv.com/Detail/2018/03/13/555358/Syria-Eastern-Ghouta-chemical-weapons-workshop-Shefounieh-Jaish-alIslam
Looks like the Syrian Army prevented it becoming a nightmare but the USA could make that nightmare a reality
Oh yes, government press releases reported on by certain media, we get that all the time, it means nothing, unless hard evidence is presented, and what does it say about US involvement??? Nothing of that sort in this case, I reckon.
Have you ever thought that hard evidence is in the information presented by RT? do you think that our government owned news media is any better than RT? Just saying.
Despite of some justified criticism now and then, I would trust RNZ a bit more than RT.
Win, RT News is a Kremlin mouthpiece just as Fox News is a Republican/neo-con mouthpiece. Both have a certain measure of value – neither are to be taken as gospel.
I dreamed it because it was stated on RT in a statement from the Russian Foreign Ministry. I am merely the messenger. Shoot me if you must!
Yes, someone on RT or so also claimed the Brits themselves poisoned the spy and his daughter in Salisbury.
So much for authenticity from that source, claims and counter claims, no evidence, nothing new.
If you had followed events closely since the downing of MH17 you might like me believe that is the most likely explanation. You seem to think MI6 is populated by little angels Marc.
Why is Britain threatening to remove RT I know Russia is threatening counter actions but the UK lead this so what do they have to hide that can’t stand the scrutiny of a media that is not a propaganda mouthpiece like the BBC
Of course, MH17 was downed by NATO rockets, was it not? And the Twin Towers in New York were most likely hit by planes remote controlled from Israel, or even the Pentagon, right?
MH17 was most likely downed by the Kiev backed Ukrainians. Ukraine was crawling with CIA people at the time as they were busy engineering a coup Remember Victoria “Fuck the EU” Nuland, so the shoot down was probably orchestrated by the CIA but as always they maintain “plausible deniability” . I don’t think your theory about remote control aeroplanes hitting the twin towers is correct (sarc) but you are probably into magical thinking if you think an aircraft hitting a steel framed skyscraper can result in its total demolition. It is just physically impossible without some additional input. But I guess you know better than 2911 architects and engineers .http://www.ae911truth.org/
If you drop your unconditional belief in Western Intelligence and political forces always acting for the good of the people you might find many seemingly senseless acts of violence become easily explainable especially when you consider who benefits. I will also remind you NATO was proven to be the force behind Operation Gladio.
http://www.truthmove.org/content/operation-gladio/
The MH17 plot by the western intelligence agencies is falling apart slowly. Things are turning to shit rather more quickly jn the Salisbury poisoning case http://www.moonofalabama.org/2018/03/no-patients-have-experienced-symptoms-of-nerve-agent-poisoning-in-salisbury.html#more
I note your repetitive, hyper active commenting, appearing to needing self affirmation, by supporting anything you just wrote, again and again.
Perhaps this report was presented by an agency or state that is US sponsored or even Ukrainian ‘fascist’, right?
https://www.government.nl/topics/mh17-incident
https://www.om.nl/onderwerpen/mh17-crash/
https://www.om.nl/onderwerpen/mh17-vliegramp/presentaties/presentation-joint/
Some investigation continues though, but your claims seem a bit far fetched.
Repetitive posting?
I see your name a lot more than mine in these multiple threads.
The links you give are from Dutch media. The Dutch enquiry excluded the Russians and maybe the malaysians while including one of the prime suspects Ukraine.
They would not allow Russian radar evidence and the Americans would not give their satellite data despite having a satellite in the region at that time. Any genuine enquiry would accept/demand information from all sources. Conclusion: They had decided the guilty party and only wanted evidence that fits that scenario.
Only if you take the Russian side, Steve, which you seem to prefer.
This is not an evidential-based conclusion for you, it is a belief-based conclusion based on who you, Winifred (a self confessed admirer of Putin), etc, identify with.
‘Russian Spy Poisoning Story = Iraq WMD Scam 2.0’
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-03-16/russian-spy-poisoning-story-indeed-another-iraqi-wmd-scam
By Craig Murray, former British intelligence officer, former UK ambassador to Uzbekistan, and Rector (i.e. Chancellor) of the University of Dundee. Originally published at CraigMurray.org.uk.
If you want to find out about what really happened to Sergei Skripal, listen to first 14 minutes of George Galloway’s show.
A welcome fresh air of sanity as we get bombarded by the corporate media’s propaganda.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDLxrf0gcpc
I watched it , and as of always I was impressed by the brilliance of George Galloway.
Compare and contrast this thread with that of the Standard.
John Pilger talks about journalism and the Poisoned Spy case.
Please share on the Standard to counter the propaganda there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRgEIn3C8qg
An interesting article on Porten Down in Global research today…
https://www.globalresearch.ca/porton-down-a-gruesome-secretive-past-britains-chemical-weapons-facility/5632400
I wonder if the Russia thing is about covering up a horrible accident. Like a monkey escaping covered in VX .
D J S
At least 38 people have been contaminated by this stuff in Salisbury apparently.https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/18/ex-russian-spy-may-have-been-poisoned-by-cars-ventilation-says-us-media
The animals secured for research according to ref in above comment in G R have tripled in number in last 6 months triggering an animal rights protest against the hideous experiments presumably being performed on them. So there must be some major project going on there.
Also on reflection as Porton Down is 8 miles from Salisbury it is to be presumed that many if not most workers at that facility live and socialise in Salisbury. With the contamination so widespread some simple carelessness could easily be the source of the problem. What a hash of an operation that collects up 36 collaterals.And counting! Putin will have to sack that team.
And what hand might animal rights protesters have had in it? Some people get pretty worked up about heinous cruelty to animals.
Just some thoughts.
D J S
DS, I’ve written a scenario on Bowalley road
connecting the dots with information that we can glean from the media
It might be an idea to challenge May with some plausible alternatives
Unfortunately it seems to take a day or so for comments to come up
Why dont you do an animals rights liberation from the laboratory story.?
That sounds like I would have to do some proper research, but I’ll think about it.
Did you post as Maureen on Bowalley Rd? Or hasn’t it turned up yet?
I think Chris moved to keep it seemly a while ago by delaying presentation of second round comments till the thread was stale . We started slagging each other off instead of discussing the issue of his current blog. A bit like what happens on some other sites.
But how do you get to May? Except by the chorus of scepticism.
It might be a real problem for politicians everywhere that the can’t spend the time needed to get past the MSM and their
close advisers to access the alternative reporting and get the broader perspective available to folks with more time available . They might be more trapped in the popular narrative than most of the public are.
I’ll keep an eye out on B Rd
Cheers David J S
Yes
It was a bit of a rush
I could have put in stuff about Steele, on the run, shitting bricks, he’d been told the dossier would never see the light of day etc
Its just an amusement
NowI’m going back to the seafood being off
because of this:
http://www.moonofalabama.org/2018/03/no-patients-have-experienced-symptoms-of-nerve-agent-poisoning-in-salisbury.html#more
But I like your animal testing scenario, rats being liberated from the laboratory by animal activists, monkey on the run
We could have a literary festival supplying May with “alternative explanations”
I really am thinking this is Theresa Mays Waterloo.
I’m also wondering if Jacinda’s done a deal with Winston
“I’ll take the heat this time Winnie, I’ll say whatever gets them off our backs, but you keep quiet, you’ll be the one dealing with Lavrov later”
Cheers
You just shake your head in wonder at the perfidy of Teresa May and her hounds riding the mad horse of apocalypse, into the valley of death..false flags flapping in her fetid wind. I guess it distracts from mass murder in Yemen and the Saudi spigot. From the so-far defeated anglo/zionist terror alliance in Syria; altho warnings already of the next whitehelmets.con gas attack casus belli for the yankee doodles to go marching in !Oh, won’t that be fun to wake up to.
Maybe a bit of ‘interference’ in the Russian election, too. A chance to screw the world cup..and look at the money she can throw at Porton Down for refit (Thanks boys !)
Not bad for the ratings either. What was it Goring said? “the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.” Auntie BEEB and the five eyes at her back.
Just like old times. Paperclip. GLADIO.
“What was it Goring said? “the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.””
So it works well within Russia and Mainland China also, right?
Sure . Would happen here too. People are people.
First sensible comment coming from you, I note.
You don’t like me because I keep saying 911 is an inside job
and that Israeli intelligence are part of it.
I don’t think they are pretending to be as sanctimoniously ‘right’ for the world as we in the West seem to think we are (the most fair and democratic blah blah blah). China and Russia are set on getting out from under the yoke of US hegemony and accepting countries without bringing democracy to them by destroying them and killing the people first. So yes, it certainly is working for some of most of us in the West isn’t it. The news media being the biggest propaganda tool of the powerful.
We need to see more proof. Intuitively I think they (the Russians) did it but this ain’t enough evidence.We can fight as much as we like but we need to remember we are just a small fry. And so we have to make trade offs whether we like it or not. We are and have done before turned a blind eye to many powerful countries leaders and their policies. We were weak when the rainbow warrior got bombed. What is the difference with this poisoning. And when we got tramped by France a super power (G8 then) where were our allies.
I doubt anyone will accept any “proof”, Michelle. Judging by the pro-Putin fan bois and girls posting here, Putin is the Second Coming.
I’ve never seen so much fawning over a corrupt oligarch. Oh wait, yes, I have. People loved John Key as well. Key and Putin could kill a kitten each and the russophiles here would notice only Key.
The other side is? ‘Infowars’ et al, or what?
Perhaps you want to emigrate to Siberia, good luck, my friend, but there are some non whites, you may not like the Arctic people living there, and there are those Muslims down in the south and around the Caucasus, not so pleasant for your liking, right?
Give Mr Putin a ring, he may help.
The hundreds of thousands of Syrian citizens freed by SAA and Russian Fed forces from the anglozionist backed mercenary apes of jihad, will probably agree with you about Pres. Putin. Far as I recall, he saved Russia from the jackals of western Oligarchy. If all else we know of media bias is right, his ‘corruption’ might be more pysop than real anyway.
Key sold NZ to anyone with the money, honey.
Ever heard of weapons of mass destruction?
agree 100% Priss the world is going backwards as far as good leaders are concerned
Perhaps your Russian friends like Putin et al would have assisted, they have the means and connections, I suppose.
An eye for an eye, that seems to be your motto.
Steve, your support for unilateral military reprisals, state executions, and other forms of state-sponsored violence ties in very well with your support for Russia .
I suppose you also approve of US drone strikes that happen to kill innocent people?
AMEN, good riddance, a closet Nazi trolling through this thread like a maniac.
When did this forum become a haven for neo-fascist trolls??????
Classic, and right from the horses mouth no less 🙂
Sieg Heil, my friend, you have outed yourself now!
This post and comments have been purged, but some comments of mine, in response to a closet Nazi commenting here, have also been wiped, sad to see.
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