This is still a fight: Some thoughts on the Newshub-Reid Research Poll

By   /   September 13, 2017  /   40 Comments

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Labour thought it could bluff its way through this election with warm fuzzies and vague promises. They assumed that these would be enough because the electorate has grown weary of the National Government. Well, the Newshub-Reid Research Poll has reminded them in no uncertain terms that this is still a fight.

FIRST OF ALL, it’s just one poll. And, one poll does not a Labour election loss portend. RNZ’s Poll of Polls (PoP) which averages out the results of the three or four most recent polls, presents a considerably calmer picture. In a nutshell, National and Labour are level-pegging; NZ First and the Greens are drifting dangerously close to the 5 percent MMP threshold; the Maori Party looks set to take two seats; Act just one; and the rest (including The Opportunity Party) simply aren’t in the race.

Even so. The latest Newshub-Reid Research Poll has delivered a pretty solid kidney-punch to the Centre-Left’s morale. What had begun to feel like a smooth escalator ride to certain victory has been brought to a sudden, stomach-lurching halt. The Nat’s are sitting pretty on 47 percent – enough, with the Greens out of the running, to let them govern on their own.

The cynical genius of the Crosby-Textor pairing has armed the National Party with a pretty serviceable baseball bat and they are swinging it hard. Frustratingly, that Nat bat has been carved out of Labour’s errors. In a fine example of Crosby-Textor’s standard operating procedure. National’s fightback strategy zeroes-in on Labour’s point of maximum vulnerability: their MPs’ abiding fear of stating clearly what it is that they intend to do – and how they intend to pay for it.

Instead of responding to National’s “Let’s Tax This” jibe with a resounding “Hell, Yeah!”, Jacinda has been persuaded to double-down on the Little-led Labour Party’s “keep it vague until the election’s safely won” strategy. The Tax Working Group was supposed to save Labour’s blushes by placating voters with the promise of wise and disinterested expertise. Clearly, the party strategists failed to read the Brexit Memo. Had they done so, they would have been alerted to the fact that the electorate’s faith in “expert opinion” has grown rather thin of late. The stock response of 2017 voters to the prospect of having their future decided by a committee of experts is: “Whose experts will they be?” and “Which side will they be working for?”

Forced to rule out more and more of the promised Working Group’s most predictable recommendations, Jacinda has been made to look as if she already knows what her committee’s findings are going to be – but is reluctant to tell us. This merely reinforces the doubts National has been at such pains to sow. Tactically, her position is grim. As Paddy Gower observes:

“Part of Labour’s problem is that it keeps ruling certain tax variations out during heavy interviews. That keeps the story going. And the problem now is there is no way out for Labour – it cannot backtrack on this. It has to take its vague tax policy all the way to the election – and National will hack at it every step of the way. Labour must find a way out of the tax vortex. Suggestions on back of an envelope to J. Ardern of Mt Albert please.”

Unfortunately, there just isn’t enough time for snail mail. So, Jacinda, please accept the following as my best shot at describing “a way out of the tax vortex”.

Strategically, Labour’s best bet is to go on the offensive over tax. Not by responding to endless challenges to rule this or that tax out of contention, but by reminding voters why they pay taxes in the first place. Give it to the voters straight. That if they want better health care, better education, more affordable housing, improved mental health services and clean rivers and streams, then they cannot avoid the question of how all these things are to be paid for. Tell them that Labour’s Tax Working Group will be asked to come up with the fairest ways to gather revenue, but also tell them that they should not be in any doubt that gathering-in more revenue is, simply, what her government has to do if it is to fulfil its promises to repair the damage wrought by nine years of National rule.

Jacinda should remind the electorate that the determination of tax policy: how much should be gathered, and from whom; goes to the very heart of the democratic tradition. It’s why Kings were required to summon Parliaments. It provided the rallying cry for the American Revolution: “No taxation without representation!” Taxes are the price we pay for civilisation – and democracy.

And then she should turn her attention to the farmers. Because, with their bare-faced lies and angry demonstrations, they have shown the rest of New Zealand exactly why a Working Group to improve the fairness of our taxation system is needed. The farming sector’s dirty dairying has been subsidised by urban taxpayers for long enough. A reasonable contribution from farmers to the cost of cleaning up the waterways they have so recklessly befouled is only fair. Jacinda should invite all those who believe farmers should pay a water tax to join her and James Shaw outside the headquarters of Federated Farmers in Wellington. The spiteful decision of Waikato cow-cockies to protest in Jacinda’s home-town of Morrinsville should be answered in kind.

Labour thought it could bluff its way through this election with warm fuzzies and vague promises. They assumed that these would be enough because the electorate has grown weary of the National Government. Well, the Newshub-Reid Research Poll has reminded them in no uncertain terms that this is still a fight.

The National Party doesn’t do surrender. It understands what the Centre-Left appears to have forgotten: that every general election involves a deliberate intensification of what Labour’s founders referred to unashamedly as “the class struggle”. Or, in the words of Leonard Cohen: “the homicidal bitchin’ that goes down in every kitchen to determine who will serve and who will eat.”

“Sunny Ways” have taken Jacinda a long way, but now it is time for her to unleash a blast of true arctic fury. “Fear and lying” is a good start, but, to put it bluntly, at this point in the campaign Labour’s voters are in need of a much more visceral morale boost. The opportunity is there to deliver a blunt message to all those who believe that taxes are what other people pay.

National’s friends in the countryside have raised their hands against “Let’s do this”. It’s time to show them what it means.

 

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40 Comments

  1. CLEANGREEN says:

    CHRIS SIMPLY NOW JACINDA MUST ASK ‘HARD QUESTIONS LIKE THIS BELOW NOW.

    Jacinda – How to find national’s weakness and use this to balance the tax questions they are using against Labour
    From NZ supporters of Jacinda.
    13th September 2017.
    For labour to ask PM.
    First question. Eight says ago when you was having your second debate with the PM, we suggested you should challenge the PM why he has he not told NZ yet what plans he has to sell more assets?

    Second question is what safeguards to protect our sovereignty and our right to govern over corporations and foreign Governments, will he disclose those agreements to the electorate now that he has secretly agreed to about the TPPA !! deal and why he will not tell NZ Voters firstly what he has agreed to?

  2. WILD KATIPO says:

    Nice! ,… always enjoy a Chris Trotter classic!, – especially when he starts using fightin’ talk !

    … ” Strategically, Labour’s best bet is to go on the offensive over tax. Not by responding to endless challenges to rule this or that tax out of contention, but by reminding voters why they pay taxes in the first place. Give it to the voters straight ” …

    That’s the stuff !!!

    Do we all remember how Ruth Richardson did it?

    She would come on stage like an old school Marm with either a standing clip board and turn the pages , or a power point presentation and try and blind us all with facts. The fact she was evil and was treasonously doing it to fleece New Zealanders out of their wealth that they had built up over decades doesn’t change the method or the principle.

    She did it aggressively , uncompromisingly and with a straight face and a loud voice.

    But she did it for all the wrong reasons.

    Yet she told the people of this country straight up. And risked political suicide.

    Now , time may have left the situation too late , but ,… the plain facts are we are going to have to overhaul taxation if we do ‘want better health care, better education, more affordable housing, improved mental health services and clean rivers and streams ‘…

    And that’s the blunt truth of the matter. There once was a time , a more commonsense time post war , ( when people had seen REAL deprivation) … when people readily saw this and accepted it as they accepted the sun rising each morning.

    Yet even then , … there were those who looked on with envious eyes and planned how to get their hands on all that wealth…such were the Business Roundtable and their London based Mont Pelerin Society overlords. Who as we know,… used Roger Douglas as their man of the moment to engineer the wholesale theft and plunder of New Zealand.

    Three decades later,… and a generation who are totally unawares of what once was,… and the job of convincing them of more taxation is just that much harder as they struggle on pitifully low wages already.

    But it has to be done,- that and a general raising of wages. A move away from low inflation targets with its high unemployment and stagnant / declining wages to a system that increases tax on those most able to pay more per capita of income.

    And the truth is ,… if it doesn’t happen now ,… it inevitably will later.

    Except that the social volatility of it having been done later will be far , far more dangerous the longer it is not rectified.

  3. PB says:

    thank you. I emailed her with much the same, a few lines, but your approach much pointier.

  4. Shona says:

    Labour’s gutless stance on taxes is down to Grant Robertson.All waffle ego and posture. He will not make the gutsy finance minister we so desperately need for Labour to win. The dishonesty of these economically illiterate neo liberals who are now in the driver’s seat of the Labour bus is all too apparent . They ain’t got the chutzpah cos they ain’t got the depth or the spine needed. And it shows. All the brains( David Parker being an exception) and the steel ( Annette King) has been driven out of Labour by these tossers. Sorry Jacinda but giving a shit just isn’t enough when up your up against the filth that is National.

    • Sanctuary says:

      Once Deborah Russell is in parliament Robertson’s monopoly on economic advice will be gone. Perhaps, by allowing a much bigger intake of fresh faces who currently live in the real world rather than the rarified atmosphere of a careerist like Robertson, Jacinda has already saved Labour irrespective of the outcome.

    • Danyl Strype says:

      “The dishonesty of these economically illiterate neo liberals who are now in the driver’s seat of the Labour bus is all too apparent”

      Neo-liberalism is too important a problem to turn it into an empty smear phrase. Ardern and Robertson are not neo-liberals, at least not in the sense of being lifelong true believers like Richard Prebble or Peter Dunne or Bill English. They understand, like Jim Bolger, that neo-liberal models cannot deliver an economy that works for people, because it’s purpose is to create an economy that people work for (for the ultimate benefit of the 1%). They just haven’t grasped just how deep the neo-liberal rabbit hole goes, and they haven’t yet got a clear idea of what could replace it. They need to look to the Greens, who have been developing this vision and the policy detail for decades.

      “All the brains( David Parker being an exception) and the steel ( Annette King) has been driven out of Labour by these tossers”

      King was one of the few died-in-the-wool neo-liberals left in Labour. Side-lining her was a good sign that the neo-liberal rump was finally losing its grasp on Labour, and most of the people who have left the party in the last term (with the notable exception of Cunliffe) were part of that rump. Good riddance to bad rubbish. The fact that Labour is still showing up as right-of-centre in the politicalcompass.org chart for NZ 2017 shows just how hard a job dragging Labour to the left is going to be, and why we need the Greens in government with them if we want anything other than the same garbage delivered with a friendly smile.

  5. David Stone says:

    Income tax is the only tax that’s needed and the simplest and fairest . If as I understand it more than very few properties are bought and sold in a given period one is deemed to be a dealer by IRD and tax is owed on the “capital gain” as things stand now. The numbers of transactions, time periods between allowable non dealer type activities could be tightened up if desirable without changing anything much, so that speculation becomes a taxable income. No new taxes are necessary , all other taxes that target some particular section of the community and not others should be abolished. Royalties might be looked at differently. I don’t think anyone should have to pay for the water that falls on their own property. Water reticulated from elsewhere is a different matter.
    Cheers D J S

    • Marc says:

      “I don’t think anyone should have to pay for the water that falls on their own property.”

      Surely, that is not what Labour’s proposed water tax is about, as far as I understand it. It is more a tax on water used through pumping it out of dammed reservoirs, out of artesian underground reservoirs, from rivers, to irrigate land and plants.

      Only when you can measure the water used, can you tax it, same as we get charged for domestically used water. They say the water is for ‘free’, and we only pay for having it pumped and sent through the pipes to our homes, that we pay for it, which is a bit of good old BS anyway. They say they charge us domestic users proportionately to what we use in amounts.

      So the idea seems to do the same with farmers, and the rain cannot be metered, so cannot be ‘taxed’. Hence it is irrigators, that get hit, and they feel treated very unfairly, as they will be disadvantaged when compared to other farmers and growers who simply live and farm in areas with more rain, so they do not need extra and will not need to pay a tax.

      That is a major issue with the water tax they proposed. NZ First were smarter, and ruled out such a tax, they seem to only want to charge royalties to those who use water for bottling and similar purposes, to export.

      Labour did not do their home work, it seems, and that is a serious problem. The same problem also that Goff and later Cunliffe fell over, damned stupid for Labour to not have learned from that.

  6. Marc says:

    Perhaps Labour NZ Inc should have taken a lesson from Jeremy Corbyn and how he resolutely pushed the message for the many not for the few. I was somewhat unimpressed by Labour’s start into the election campaign, wanting to raise no taxes, wanting to keep their options open until later.

    They were scared after losing two general elections, and under Andrew Little wanted to try an approach to leave such risky areas out of their campaign policy program, which was anyway supposed to include only a few major policies that may appeal to the voters.

    That is back firing of course, and now, even with an otherwise impressive performance under Jacinda, it is biting them in the backsides.

    It should never have happened, the Labour Party should have taken a lesson from Jeremy and simply been frank about increasing some income taxes for the rich and high earners, and to consider a capital gains and land tax.

    They could have done this by ensuring the voters, it will be fair taxes, and only those truly high earners and wealthy would be paying extra. Now we have the Pandora’s Box opened, and they are out of answers, as to how to deal with the Nats and their tricks.

    I fear this may cost them the election, and may give National a fourth term. Perhaps it is time to fess up, to tell the voters, hey, we may consider this or the other, but it will be FAIR, as Michael Cullen is supposed to tell the people through a new ad from tomorrow.

    Labour are experts in kicking own goals, going by their performance since 2008. Get your shit together, I’d say, and also do not let the Greens out in the cold, it is STUPID!

  7. Marc says:

    To be bloody honest, the way the water tax or levy has been presented and sold, it is also a damned stupid idea and approach taken by Labour. It seems to be nothing but an irrigation tax, hitting farmers and horticulturalists who need water to be pumped out of reservoirs and so, to irrigate their crops.

    Hence Farmers that will be hit by that feel unfairly treated. Those that do not need to irrigate, as they live in areas where there is plenty of rain, they will not be hit, as the rain cannot be taxed.

    Perhaps it should have been thought about to simply bring in stricter regulations for flow off to not be allowed to contain more than certain levels of nitrates and so forth?

    Penalties and stricter rules may have done the job, to improve river water and lake water standards, rather than a flat tax for those needing water to irrigate. Also could the RMA have been amended, to simply make it harder in future to irrigate, that is besides of what is already allowed in places.

    Taxes will naturally be passed on to the consumers, as otherwise farmers will suffer losses in profit or even be hit so hard, they will be unable to operate economically.

    And that results in higher prices, which many are already complaining about, look at the exorbitant prices of butter.

    While some farmers may be reaping great profits, many are just breaking even, and some made huge losses over recent years, as dairy prices were down.

    Labour has taken on the traditionally most loyal Nat voters and enraged many of them, that is like waving a red rag in front of an already angry bull, damned stupid in my view.

    It is too late to remedy that now, as the farmers will go onto the barricades now, to ensure that the media report so much about their fury, it will be bad news for Labour. It shows again that Labour is largely made up of urban voters and members, and so they are out of touch with the rural sector, earning us over sixty percent of exports. How damned stupid and short sighted all this.

  8. esoteric pineapples says:

    “It provided the rallying cry for the American Revolution: “No taxation without representation!”

    In this fascinating interview with journalist Abby Martin a black Houston professor explains how the American Revolution was actually a revolt by the colonies against British attempts to reign in slavery and native American genocide. He says it wasn’t a revolution but actually a counter-revolution.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkYZtfxj0RM&feature=share

  9. mosa says:

    Three more years of ” drift ” if National win another term.

    http://werewolf.co.nz/2017/09/gordon-campbell-on-the-politics-of-fear-and-neglect/

  10. Chris says:

    YES. Focus on why we need more tax revenue to adequately provide health, education, clean rivers etc. And state clearly that the undertaxed sectors, eg property speculators and the very wealthy, need to start paying their fair share for the common good.

  11. Quicksilver says:

    Ok. I’m sure it’s bleedin’ obvious to all the Natz are in full on Dirty Politics mode now.
    Liabilities like Bennett et al have been hidden away. Plenty of shots of Bill in safe scenes talking to cows and blue dragons. They’ve dipped into their massive campaign funds to change signage and launch attack ads.
    The comments sections of Stuff are overun by organised comment makers to try and shape public perception.
    So I agree with Mr Trotter. The only way to fight this, is fight fire with fire. You can’t sit around and let lies be told.
    You refute each one abruptly, and then remind NZers why this sham govt has failed our people miserably. The facts are there! Take the water issue for example. 66% of rivers unswimmable and half our lakes degraded beyond recognition. 1 cow = 14 people. We’ve got – what is it – 90 million cows now? The shits gotta’ go somewhere FFS. Not even the most FITH Nazional supporter can argue against the facts!

  12. countryboy says:

    Jacinda Adern fucked it up by appealing to the handful of Hipsters she likely hangs with in Grey Lynn with her promise of heavy handed handling of beastly farmers in the filthy hinterlands, where no decent beard, nor floral frock, should go.
    When she did that, she alienated Invercargill, Tuatapere, Otautau, Winton, Ohai, Nightcaps, Dipton, Garston, Athol, Queenstown, Cromwell, Clyde, Alexandra, Roxburgh, Gore, Mataura, Clinton, Waipahi, Owaka, KaKa Point, Balclutha, Kaitangata, Milton, Dunedin, Outram, Middlemarch, Ranfurly, Nasby, St Bathans, Omakau, Teviot, Tarras, Omarama, Fairlie, Timaru, Geraldine, Oamaru, Herbert, Palmerston, Garston, Wakauwaiti, Orari, Ashburton, Dunsandle, Darfleid, Rolleston, Chertsy,Rakaia, Methven, Leeston, Southbridge, Akaroa, Port Levy, Diamond Harbour, Lyttelton, Christchurch, Rangiora, Oxford, Kaiapoi, Greymouth, Westport, Nelson, Blenheim, Kaikoura, Picton….
    And that’s just the towns I can think of off hand in the south island.
    What’s it going to take? Mass starvation? A flotilla of Chinese people to land here and say ” Hey ! You Kiwis ! Your Land ? Now our land ! What you gonna do about that then huh ? ”
    Some of you will shout back ” I dunno! Lets ask some tourists? They’ll know! ”
    If ever there was a fiddling while Rome combusted, this is it.
    What we’re watching is a mountainside of muddy stupidity cascading down into a raging torrent of ignorance. No wonder national are grabbing at the opportunity to sell us, and our priceless farmlands via Landcorp, to the Chinese. It’ll be like taking worm tasting candy from a special needs chicken with a head injury while tripping in LSD.
    You know what? I think we’re fucked. If we, by some divine miracle, vote national ‘out’ we’re going to be stuck with labour idiots and various orbiting-satellite, gape mouthed minor party types spending our $-six figures plus entitlements while we all go W.T.F. just happened? Different-different but same.

    • Danyl Strype says:

      Come on bro. The only people claiming Labour and the Greens are being mean to the poor suffering farmers are astroturf groups like Federated Farmers. They do not actually speak for farmers, but for the agri-business sector, especially its banks (eg RoboBank), and the holding companies that now own large chunks of Aotearoa farmland.

      The attack politics FF et al are running are just a sign of how afraid they are that a Labour-Greens government might rein in their ability to privatize agricultural profits (eg free water for Coca Cola and other corporate bottle sellers), while passing on most of its costs to the environment and the public sector (eg the cost of cleaning up heavily polluted waterways). Non-corporate farmers are just as concerned about this as anyone, and there were actual farmers at the protest at Environment Canterbury today, joining their fellow citizens in denouncing the National-imposed increase in intensive dairy and irrigation.
      http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/339395/we-re-standing-up-for-our-rivers

      As for the tired old trope that people in the cities don’t know what’s happening in the country, that’s bunk; the same kind used to defend west coast coal mining by claiming its opponents were ignorant city kids. I was born and bred in the city and tend to live in one, but I have relatives and friends with rural properties, and get out of the city to visit farms and walk in reserves as often as possible. Considering what a small country this is, I’d say most kiwis do. The younger ones, who are less likely to, get a thorough education in environmental issues that includes an understanding of growing food, and the environmental costs of industrial farming. It’s precisely because the urban population are now more informed about what’s happening in the country that policies designed to rein in corporate-industrial farming are growing in popularity.

  13. e-clectic says:

    Vision, vision ,vision.

    Or, it’s more of the same – indebtedness, loss of assets, climate change inaction, more suicide, more homeless, increasing disparity and all that brings.

    James Shaw is talking vision and action.

    Fairness, equity, contribution for a society that works for everyone – isn’t that what we want?

  14. savenz says:

    Agree with much of the post in particular voter’s dislike having taxes left to an unidentified group of ‘experts.

    Things approved by experts, Rogernomics, climate change, share market crashes, those dodgy bonds sold by banks to farmers, to CHCH rebuild experts, to property prices.

    Many people now do not believe in experts, because whenever they trust them (in particular about money, property and economy), things go wrong.

    Experts like Shamubeel Eaqub, ex Goldman Sacs, who told Kiwi’s for years not to buy a house but rent instead as it was a much better investment to buy shares etc, was forced to eat his words when people who took his advice are now unable to afford a house, while those who did their own thing and bought at some so called top of the market boom, are now sitting pretty.

    Kiwis were told for years by experts that immigration had nothing to do with house prices, we needed those ‘chef skills’ and low level IT support jobs and tradespeople, to grow the economy. Don’t then be surprised when NZ’s economy is focused around insecure and low paid jobs in construction, cafe’s and cows and subsequent taxes around those industries are not popular.

    Nor be surprised when farmers are up in arms about being blamed for polluting the environment when actually people are the biggest polluters and we have the fastest growing population per capita in the world.

    Only Israel and Luxembourg are bigger importers of migrants, neither one known for having an enviable and harmonious, fair, lifestyle – quite the opposite!

    Our record tourism numbers have bought Gardia to our rivers and conservation money is spent on toilets for tourists not actually conservation.

    Our water is being taken for free to be bottled in plastic bottles for offshore people rich enough to buy bottled water, another polluter in every way.

    Be clear Labour and Greens do not blame voters for this, many voters are tired of being blamed for government mistakes.

    If Labour are to win and Greens to survive, they need to be inclusive not exclusive. Embrace the farmers and tell them Labour and Greens are sick of their land being sold off. Tell them Labour and Greens will keep their hospitals and schools open and Labour does care about the rural sector. They support mum and dad farmers not big corporation farms.

    Labour need to understand home owners in Auckland and all around NZ now have houses on average worth 1 million dollars. Those are the ‘rich pricks’ that the left commentators keep talking about but make up much of the NZ population aka 65%. Again don’t attack your own voters if you want them to vote for you. Don’t go after landlords because they probably vote Labour and if they don’t you want them too.

    God knows how many jobs are dependant on construction, cows and coffee now, so anyone trying to tamper with any of those industries, no matter how lovely and positive are going to have a tough job.

    If the idea is you tax to give back to the beneficiaries who can’t find a job it’s a tough message to sell to more than 50% of the population.

    Most Kiwi’s want the welfare system but not to be identified as the bad guys not paying enough taxes contributing it. There are many causal factors to poverty and to try and explain that in an election debate, when the MSM are complete morons of the right that reinforce a biased message everyday – Good fucking luck.

    Labour need to get onto responsible government and making every tax dollar work and not paying for conference centres for businesses and Saudi sheep farms that kill sheep like the National party believes in.

    Labour needs to get back to real issues. We have enough taxes, Labour are not only going to grow the economy (unlike National who just produced debt and cafes and endless construction for offshore buyers).

    Labour need to say they are going to get the residents here jobs and houses not allow a free for all. They are going to diversify the economy, stop the corruption from the transport agencies that have burgeoned under National, get rid of National standards in education and make sure that the 30% of primary school kids failing under the National government in Maths and Writing are going to be supported.

    Labour and Greens need to give a positive message. Taxation is not a positive message to campaign on. They need to understand and have a positive taxation message of less bad spending by government subsiding conference centres and the like, they are going to make NZ, wealthier, more equitable, clean and green, diversified, nuclear free, look at ways to use agriculture and forestry to save the environment, get rid of oil exploration and embrace new technology. Bring down power bills by using alternate energy. etc

    Greens need to remember wealthy older people vote Green. Don’t bite the hand that votes for you. The socialist party gets less than 1%, the Green Party used to be on 14%. Social justice is important, but that’s not why people vote Green. They vote Green to support the environment. And now to get a change of government and a centre left government we need the Greens to survive.

  15. NZBC says:

    Well Chris, it seems Jacinda and Grant have ignored your advice:
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11922151

    • savenz says:

      @ NZBC I think a wise change to stop the Natz scaremongering like they have for the last 9 years at election time. Tax is Labour’s weak point against National and the media is completely biased which is why so many people are switching off from it.

      We need a change of government more than we need a tax working group implementing changes that could be anything.

    • HC says:

      Is this now the Metiria Turei disaster situation being repeated? Once you start admitting stuff, or back down, the Nats will of course put the boot in further!?

    • HC says:

      So where will that leave us with the Princess Jacinda Stardust Revolution now?

  16. Samwise says:

    “the first place. Give it to the voters straight. That if they want better health care, better education, more affordable housing, improved mental health services and clean rivers and streams, then they cannot avoid the question of how all these things are to be paid for. Tell them that Labour’s Tax Working Group will be asked to come up with the fairest ways to gather revenue, but also tell them that they should not be in any doubt that gathering-in more revenue is, simply, what her government has to do if it is to fulfil its promises to repair the damage wrought by nine years of National rule.”

    Damn right. Remind NZers that when they are waiting eight months for a surgical procedure,it’s because the Nats cuts taxes and social services. That should focus peoples’ attention.

  17. Black Lemming says:

    On Labours Water Tax .

    Lets put this in perspective .Do the math .

    “An Average dairy farm uses 1,000,000 litres of water a day , which at 1c per 1000 litres is only $ 10 a day . ”

    This is a 10 sec simple sell to the wider public , which everybody can understand with no further explanation required.

    “For the cost of a couple of cups of coffee a day no one is going bankrupt” and nationals scaremongering is unfounded .

    Its incontrovertible that farmers have caused the pollution and that they have a corresponding obligation to reduce pollution and contribute to the clean up .

    This simple calculation could go a long way towards defusing Nationals Water Scare Bomb , however getting anyone to listen at Labour has been problematic and frustrating .

    Right now I think they need all the help they can get .So whether it comes from Satchi & Satchi or Mrs Redding of Waimate is inconsequential . If its a good idea , its a good idea .

    Wake up Labour .

    Vote Blue for poo.

    Vote Green for clean.

    • HC says:

      As I read above, it rather seems to be a tax or royalty that will only hit irrigating farmers and horticulturalists, and those bottling water for exports. So some farmers will have to pay, others will not. It is too blunt an instrument, and not well enough thought out. Hence the attack by some farmers and lobby groups, and the National Party launching a nasty, yes also dishonest, campaign video.

  18. Blake says:

    National – Labour

    Republican – Democrat

    Not much difference between the two because all four parties are dictated to by big corporations. Multi-national corporations own most govt.’s so to think that one party will be much better than another is being short sighted and frankly uninformed. My comments are usually denied at TDB because
    I do not tow the normal line and accept the B.S. that most do ( as Chris blathers on. )

    A much MUCH ! ! ! bigger story and one that impacts the world on many levels is the recent study that proves that 9 / 11 was a planned demolition.
    We have been saying this for years and now it is being proven so.

    Whether National or Labour gets in pales in importance to exposing the truths about how our world is being pushed into the New World Order.
    Look at how many Labour politicians are in bed with the United Nations and look into the UN’s connection with their controlling leadership role
    in the one world governance – the New World Order. Wake up folks and learn the real truths behind our controlled governments and why they
    are controlled and the HAARP caused earthquakes and much MUCH more etc. etc. . . . .

    So the left gatekeepers are being exposed now and TDB will likely refuse to put this comment up as some at TDB are still holding onto the old paradigm that 9 / 11 was brought to us by some terrorists. Yes terrorists but high level ( non-Moslem ) ones who could pull an event like this off that would take away the worlds privacy rights and be able to increase surveillance all in the name of FIGHTING TERRORISM. They created the problem and had the solution to increase their powers and create more fear and brainwashing. Who cares who wins this election because it will be game on as usual and most are completely unaware. They still think that voting one way or another will make any difference. Wake up folks.

    https://nexusnewsfeed.com/article/geopolitics/two-year-study-supports-world-trade-centre-7-brought-down-via-controlled-demolition/

    • Marc says:

      So this conspiracy stuff is allowed, while some of my past comments – on a couple of days (or nights) in the last two weeks, admittedly some overly repeated, have not been published?!

      It must have slipped through then.

      • Blake says:

        Marc, dig a little deeper and find out who coined the term ” Conspiracy Theory ” and why they did it.

        They want to discredit the truth speakers.
        Google – origin of the term — ” conspiracy theory “.

    • WILD KATIPO says:

      Good on you , Blake ,… you are in fact , quite correct.

      However , like most who become aware of the next tier , – for convenience sake’s called geopolitics, .. its too much to handle,… so we have to feed it in small, digestible chunks….

      Think of it like being born into the generation that believed the world was flat 4-500 years ago ,… then along came a young upstart renaissance thinker who said the earth revolved around the sun and the earth was in fact a globe…

      That’s what you are dealing with.

      Thick fearful bastards.

      And whats worse,.. thick fearful bastards who have a lot to lose if they get proven wrong. That’s the quintessential neo liberal for you.

      In the USA , they come under the broad category of the ‘ neo cons’ . But they are far , far more organized than just the neo cons of the lil ole US of A…

      Wankers who encourage a perpetual state of war A) because they love it ,… and B ) because they , – and their industrial / military complex mates that Eisenhower warned us about get rich off of war.

      The family name ‘ Bauer’ and Rothchild’s rings a bell ,… but even they are only mid tier… the Bilderbergers… well ,… they are about 3 tiers down from the eye of Horus….

      You can find many of them in what used to be called OSS ( Office of Strategic Services ) now the CIA. And you can find them in both Democrats AND republicans . But even they are just the lower tier stooges.

      If you really want to know who and what ‘they’ are really about , …WATCH THIS :

      Genesis 6 Conspiracy with Gary Wayne on the Awakening … – YouTube
      gary wayne genesis 6 you tube▶ 1:36:26
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvQpWEGsht8

      And to do that ,… you , we , I ,…all have to accept the metaphysical as well as the physical whether we like it or not , …. as just like electricity , we cant see it with our eyes, but it exists nonetheless.

      • Blake says:

        As usual, you and — ” afewknowthetruth ” — are right on target and I agree.
        Thanks for the link. I am a fan of only a rare few at TDB and as you say – ” thick fearful bastards ” abound. Also they are just plain uninformed and lacking in deep intelligence and awareness.
        I’m feeling that the eye of Horus, the real belly of the secret keeping , world manipulating beast maybe be a bit intentionally illusive to us and very protected right now. They may already be in those underground bunkers all over the world that they are building in haste right now. Those same psychopaths have the technically advanced gear to spy on us and rape our privacy rights each and every day – thanks to their planned demolition job called 9 / 11. THAT is the story to expose ( not the election day winner ) and tell the truth about as it impacted practically everyone in the world in one negative way or another negative way. Perpetual money making war fighting their trumped up war against terrorism when they are the real terrorists.

        Who cares whether Bill or Jacinda win – it will be game on as usual , for the most part. with the U.N. and many unethical multi-national corporations controlling the show.
        Kiss Kiss Kissy up to the United Nations and Helen – yuk yuk.
        __________________

        Have you spent much time looking into the Tavistock Institute and its roll in the birthing of all this insane madness and mind control. It was out of their belly, that the term Conspiracy Theory was birthed FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE OF DISCREDITING THOSE WHO KNEW THE TRUTHS AND WANTED TO EXPOSE THEIR MANIPULATIVE AND SICK AGENDAS. Most who do not like or agree with what you are affirming just slap
        on the term ” conspiracy theory ” and think they know what they are talking about. That term was intended to be dismissive and to discredit truth seekers and truth speakers. Thanks to the likes of – Wild Kapito and Afewknowthetruth etc. . . . for continuing to bring a bit of awareness and light to the mud puddle.

  19. Zack Brando says:

    I think today’s announcement by Labour to not implement a capital gains tax, stamp duty, etc until 2021 will see their support drop to about 28%. National, TOP and the Greens(in that order) will now increase their support.

    Unless this coming shedding of support flees to the Greens, Labour will likely now lose the election. Today’s announcement is a betrayal to those under 45.

    Go Gig OR Go Home – seems Labour are at home in opposition, big, big misstep from Labour today.

  20. Liminal says:

    I knew it. Capitulation even before the final vote is in. What IS the point of Labour now? At least I party-voted Green after some soul-searching. Pretty face at the front, same old ugly neoliberals behind.

  21. Andrea says:

    There’s an old saying that runs: ‘Throwing good money after bad’

    Chris says, “That if they want better health care, … then they cannot avoid the question of how all these things are to be paid for.”

    WE HAVE BEEN PAYING! Endlessly and relentlessly. The top end salaries go up, projects are delayed for decades, and we are still told, “You must all pay more”.

    Petrol tax – to pay for ‘better roads’ – in ten or more years. GST – to save us from the awful risk that might have come from the GFC.

    It’s never been any different. A continuing con. From the amounts paid we could have had decent schools, hospitals, housing. We managed it before and we’re still using those old relics of the forties to seventies. Why? Where did all those taxes from the eighties on get spent?

    Before any set of government claws hits my shrivelled pocket, Chris, I want to know where the last lot went – not how they plan to mismanage and splash around the next lot of stolen loot, or fund vanity projects for short-sighted and short-term gain for a few.

    Farmers using irrigation – they don’t need to. There are other farming uses for the land that don’t require massive amounts of water. Extensive, not intensive. Paying for the water is a cost of business. If that makes it uneconomic – that’s how it is. Conversion is two-way, and our rugged individual corporate welfare seekers need to remember that.

    It doesn’t do much for the non-farmers, either. Hell no. We still pay international prices for product made here. No subsidies at the supermarket, eh. ($5.50 for 500g of butter. Eleven dollars a kilo for yellow grease produced by mostly grass-fed cows – with some other ingredients. Why? Because they can.)

    We aren’t getting value from the taxes we already pay. The whole system is inefficient and rancid. Time for a clean out yet no party on offer seems capable.

    • Marc says:

      Look at the big picture, when you have mass net immigration gains, when you can add some internal population growth of the ‘natural’ kind, and thus have significant population growth, the demand for infrastructure and services goes up.

      That means all have to pay more, to build new stuff, and that is just an up front investment, e.g. hospitals, schools, universities, research institutes, childcare centres, roads of course, train networks, like the city rail link in Auckland, and the list goes on.

      So on one hand they go on about this wonderful ‘growth’ we have, mostly immigration fueled, but on the other they come later, and ask for more taxes, user pays or whatsoever. Labour at least subtly indicated there will be more taxes, but now pulled back a little, the Nats pretend all is well, we need no new taxes. But as dishonest as they are, the Nats will come with more use pays and levies on all kinds of things, continued borrowing by students and up front investment costs by others.

      In the end we all pay more and get less services and quality of life per capita. Few out there see the whole picture though, they have been conditioned to look through a narrow minded gap, not allowing to see the big picture, the mind is shut, so the reptile brain is all that functions.