No.Way.
Just now in question time, Ron Mark asked Steven Joyce the following
Ron Mark: Did any minister listen to the Barclay tapes?
Steven Joyce: Not in their ministerial capacity
WTF???
So are we to take it that Minister’s DID listen to the Todd Barclay tape BUT not in their ministerial capacity???
So they know that there is in fact a tape and they have heard the allegations but they are hiding behind a technicality that it isn’t in their ministerial capacity?
This is unbelievable. If this is true then senior Ministers have known and hidden this for a very long time. What the bloody hell is going on here?
By claiming Ministers heard the tape but not in their capacity as Ministers, they don’t have to answer questions in Parliament. It’s bloody deceptive and incredibly tricky.
The trials and tribulations of the Ranfurly Rabbit ?
‘ What the bloody hell is going on here?’
Whats going on here ?
Lies. That’s what.
John Key said the same several times when asked about texting to Cameron Slater.
PM reveals Slater texts | Stuff.co.nz
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/63570264/pm-reveals-slater-texts
He also said he ‘ could not recall’… Same as John Banks and the same as Bill English…
This ,… business about … ‘ I forget’ , ‘ I cant remember’ and ‘ I cant recall’ and , – ‘ not in my capacity as Prime Minister ‘ and …’ not in their ministerial capacity’…. Is straight out of the Dirty Politics school for the National party that Simon Lusk taught . We were told several members expressed disquiet about these techniques. However the now widespread and increasing use of them has demonstrated a general acceptance of a valid way to fob off the public and the legal processes – even if a crime has been committed.
It is obvious that the senior inner core of the National party are now well advanced and thoroughly versed in it.
A few years back , … legislation was passed to make what was formerly called the ‘ peasants right to silence ‘ a criminal offence.
It is not good enough that we see senior elected paid officials regularly using this flimsy defense by diversion of the issue. It is now time the Commissioner of Police, the Governor General , and other bodies such as the Ombudsmen start to move. Our laws are now being abused and our democracy made a mockery off.
A crime has been committed here , and we the public are being made to witness it unfold in slow motion without any appearance of anybody taking responsibility for it.
I don’t think that is the case.
Prior the legislation change no inference could be drawn in court when someone charged maintained their right to silence. After the change the court is allowed to conclude that adherence to silence may infer something about the accused guilt or innocence.
So, it didn’t make it a criminal offence, rather it was an underhand way to tilt the scales of justice against the presumption of innocence.
The problem is, this is the norm, this is how NZ Inc is run, I am surprised someone just discovered the legal interpretation approach and hypocrisy, that is everywhere. This is supposed to be the least corrupt country, haha, I know it is not, but Sleepy Hobbits are in their vast majority not legal experts, rather illiterate when it comes to law so they get shafted all the time, and go back to sleep.
Nothing will change, as the Nats have more lawyers and elite education participants amongst their ranks, plus advisors with such degrees, and of course Crown Law to their avail. The common worker will not even get it, what this answer in Parliament really meant, and will hence NOT care a bit. They go by what ends up on their plate and in their pockets.
This smacks of Joyce’s machinations. Bet it was him.
We probably have all noticed by now that this government has answers for EVERYTHING. And they think their answers to questions are impressive and makes them look all-wise, all-intelligent etc,etc,etc. I get the impression the National government quickly closed ranks after the Barclay incident and hoped the NZ public would never hear of this debacle. It now makes me wonder what other incidents have happened that the National government have closed ranks on and ensured the NZ public will never find out???!!!
To date we have seen Bill English lie and justify his right to lie to the NZ public(voters). One minute English claimed the tape(s)didn’t exist and within hours of his comment(s) he then admitted they do exist. We now have Joyce saying he and his colleagues listened to these ‘non-existent’ tapes.
Goodness just how much bullshit and lies will this government carry on with as they demean themselves with each comment into the realm of lacking credibility let alone trust by New Zealanders?!
And so Joyce has implied the National MPs have listened to the tapes but not in the capacity as Ministers. Does that mean they listened to the tape(s)over a few beers and boozy sessions?
We probably have all noticed by now that this government has
answersevasions for EVERYTHING.fify
The Natzianal government is drowning in its own foul excrement!
This nonsense of “not in their ministerial capacity,” or ” I don’t recall,” etc, a devious ploy to avoid the truth, a trend set by Key, is totally unacceptable and going too far now. We deserve and should demand much better from our elected representative.
The Speaker should do his job on behalf of the people and call time on indirect inadequate answers, by making each minister and MP answer all questions put to them truthfully. If they don’t, then charge them with contempt of Parliament!
After all, Parliament is the highest court in the land and high ethical standards should be paramount, considering any other court would not tolerate this sort of dodgy dubious behaviour from anyone under oath and our politicians have sworn an oath to serve NZ!
” Not in their ministerial capacity ”
These people are exempt from any responsibility for anything.
Their arrogance is understandable as the system allows them total protection from just about anything ………even the law they enforce on everyone else.
He’s just using a Sun Tzu tactic, “Control(ling) the Battlefield”. Keeping your attention (distraction) without really saying anything you dont already know!
Use another Sun Tzu tatic against the Nats? An all out attack!All the way up to the election!
“When you sense/know your opposition is weak and their weakness Attack them there!
How is being a New Zealand Minister, including the PRIME Minister, not a 24/7 ‘job’?
Here’s what the NZ Cabinet Manual states:
https://dpmc.govt.nz/our-business-units/cabinet-office/supporting-work-cabinet/cabinet-manual/2-ministers-crown-6
Conduct of Ministers
2.55A Minister of the Crown, while holding a ministerial warrant, acts in a number of different capacities:
in a ministerial capacity, making decisions and determining and promoting policy within particular portfolios;
in a political capacity as a member of Parliament, representing a constituency or particular community of interest; and
in a personal capacity.
2.56In all these roles and at all times, Ministers are expected to act lawfully and to behave in a way that upholds, and is seen to uphold, the highest ethical standards.
This includes exercising a professional approach and good judgement in their interactions with the public and officials, and in all their communications, personal and professional.
Ultimately, Ministers are accountable to the Prime Minister for their behaviour.
2.57Holding ministerial office is regarded as a full-time occupation and is remunerated as such. Accordingly:
accepting additional payment for doing anything that could be regarded as a ministerial function is not permissible; and
accepting payment for any other activities requires the prior approval of the Prime Minister.
Thank you digging in deeper , Penny Bright.
But say , while we are at it ,… will we see coverage from the Daily Blog over the Labour party’s excellent policy release today covering wages and employment laws?
Because as well the Barclay corruption and the almost certainty of several laws having been broken ,… we see another form of corruption that has been allowed to infect this country for 33 years.
I was wondering how long it would be for the vested interests – and the original body of thieves and scum who drew up and lobbied for the Employment Contracts Act who renamed themselves the New Zealand Initiative ( formerly calling themselves the ‘ Business Roundtable ‘ ) , and their associates The Employers and Manufacturers Association (EMA) would start squawking .
Here is a few choice comments arguing AGAINST NZ workers receiving a fair wage and conditions and worker protections from these odious lobby groups – particularly the NZ Institute :
………………………………..
* BUSINESS NZ CHIEF EXECUTIVE Kirk Hope described the policy as “a step backwards”.
“They would mean less flexibility for companies to innovate and pay productive workers more,” he said.
………………………………..
** The EMPLOYERS and MANUFACTURERS ASSOCIATION (EMA) also expressed “deep concerns”.
“The proposed Fair Pay Agreements hark back to the days of the national awards system, which is an old fashioned approach to industrial relations,” said EMA chief executive Kim Campbell.
“We’ve moved on as a nation and our current economic prosperity reflects this.”
………………………………..
*** But there was a risk that these policies could increase unemployment, said NEW ZEALAND INSTITUTE executive director Oliver Hartwich.
“One of the countries with the most liberal labour laws in the world is Switzerland, which has lower unemployment than New Zealand, ” he said. “Why? Because employers find it easier to take on staff and they know that if need be they can get rid of staff.”
Business groups question Labour policy – NZ Herald
http://www.nzherald.co.nz › Business
Labour unveils plans for workers, businesses – NZ Herald
http://www.nzherald.co.nz › Business
……………………………….
This shit absolutely blows me away.
These subversive scum bags, – after 33 years of legalized theft of not only the state owned assets of the NZ public but also their wages – have the colossal gall to issue public statements against equity and fairness for some of the lowest paid , insecure employment workers of this country – and by extension – everybody else who signs one of their ‘ contracts’ of employment.
And that’s just about all the rest of us.
With all the NGO’s and International bodies ( such as the IMF ) reports of wages being way below par in a modern developed country with rampant homelessness, family’s living in cars, widely known zero hour contracts , Pike River and other industrial deaths , an out of control housing crisis , exploitative immigration and the like – we have these bloody arseholes issuing public statements such as this.
So while we are discussing the lies and corruption going on in the senior National party level, – I would like to see a full expanded article from TDB of these bold and gutsy announcements from the Labour party – probably some of the most significant policy’s to come from Labour in decades.
This affects ALL of us.
Why?
Because it challenges the very narrative that we have all been led by the nose to accept whether we like it or not. The Barclay case may be one episode of corruption and lies – the subversion of the wealth of the Commons of this country is another – and far more ongoing and entrenched . And just as immoral.
New Zealand workers and salary earners should be falling in behind Labour in DROVES with these policy announcements – and by doing so – driving a stake clear through these thieving Globalist neo liberals hearts.
You knock these treasonous scumbags out – you start to knock out corrupt politicians like Bill English and his former boss John Key.
You do that ? … you start to get back the New Zealand we were once so proud of being a citizen of.
Many thanks for this info Penny. Obviously we are being goverened by a bunch of disrespectful irresponsible crooked deviants!
Kick them out in September.
So even the opposition can’t make headway against the evil empire during question time. Hardly surprising that people resort to personal attacks on Bullshit Bill, Dildo Joyce and Korrupt Key, let alone Bullshit Bridges, Benefit Bashing Bennett and Spiteful Smith.
I appreciate that this may be immature but I do feel better!
Nasty Arrogant Tyrrants
N A T
I have seen this question asked elsewhere!
“And if they weren’t acting in their ministerial capacities, how did they get their hands on the PM’s slush fund to pay for the cover-up?
Would that then be embezzlement?”
STOP RIGHT THERE !!!
The above points refute this spurious no defense by Joyce in its tracks!!!!
They obviously knew the ramifications of what had transpired, that indeed there WAS a recording , that it WAS illegal , and that others laws were POSSIBLY broken.
So in fact , – they WERE ‘acting in their ministerial capacity’s’ when dipping into the PM’s fund and that in fact , – as Penny Bright has demonstrated by providing the legal definitions of a Ministers duty – the Joyce deflection is indefensible.
10% Wild katipo,!!!!!!!
Yes SS Joyce is totally drunk with power now and cant see his comedy of errors even if we were blind!!!!
SS Joyce thinks he is immune to legal action here, but opposition members should now push for an independent investigation of this whole over bearing power play by a government to block and impede the course of justice now!!!!!!
Interesting question, Southlander.
The Barclay scandalhas really torn open the gaping infected wound that is National party politics. This is what New Zealanders voted for three elections in a row; lies, deceit, obfuscation, and arrogance.
Good on ya kiwis. Ya muppets.
Really? No wayyyyyy…..!
But I thought John key said this government was the most “transparent” New Zealand has ever had. Don’t tell me he wasn’t telling the truth (again)?
Dr Gobbles said if you are going to tell a lie tell a big one, it’s far more believable .
This is a real pain trying to xomment from a Samsung when fields don’t even align ans where ‘web developers’ are only equipped with 4gl aids and ….lets not go there (its un-entrepreneuial)
Before all this got headline attn, i was going to make a simpl comment: “Glenda fucking Hughes”…
There goes a woman ( or shoyld I say; a person of female gender) who’d probably be a fenale/feninists’ worst enema.
It’s a shame we don’t have a 4th Estate!
Christ! Even I ( with failing memory) rememver an ombudsman’s (successfull) challenfe to this mysogenist piece of shit.
One truly horrible specimen.
I’ve no doubt it’s the reason various gnats are all in a befuddle.
I wonder whether they call her Aunty or Uncle….or more appropriately “Grandpa”
She’s the gnatzi’s equivalent of a Shane Jones “eeeeeeeew!”
Saying, “not in their ministerial capacity” is NOT a technicality, it’s a free pass from the media. It’s a weak excuse that should be laughed at, not put on the road to being sacrosanct!
Question: If these tapes were not listened to in a ‘ministerial capacity’ but rather a private capacity, can charges now be brought against ministers for being complicit to a crime or perverting the course of justice?
Finally, ministers who use stupid ‘technicalities’ open themselves up to criminal matters. Like the American who claimed, after smoking his expensive Cuban cigars, he should be award thousands – he won. However, the insurance company then had him charged as arsonist – it stuck.
Not in their ministerial capacity, Yeh Na pretty legal.
IF they listened to the tapes in ANY capacity they are breaking the law by listening to a communication that they knew was not intended for them. That response is grounds for a police investigation into which people listened to the tapes and when. The media really need to look at the Act and run with this.
[…] Did other Ministers hear the Todd Barclay tapes? […]
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