Post Paris – how do we fight Terrorism?



Let’s get this straight. Most of the leaders in ISIS are former Iraqi Officers angered by the invasion of the US for weapons of mass destruction that didn’t exist and ISIS are funded by the Saudis and other American CIA client Gulf states but the barbarity in Paris is the fault of Islam?


The attack on Paris was an attack on modern culture committed by medieval fascists who are to Islam what KKK is to Christianity – war can’t solve that.

You eliminate terrorism when you eliminate the righteous grievances recruiters use to target alienated youth – every bomb we drop on the Middle East creates a new terrorist.

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While crypto-racists like Cameron Slater are almost gleeful at the murder and barbarity in Paris and right wing extremists attempt to whip anti-Muslim sentiment up, perhaps we need to ask why people are driven to these types of extremism rather than feed it?


We never ask ‘why’ these people lash out at us. We never ask what it is that makes them want to hate us with such passion they are prepared to commit savagery upon us and ultimately kill themselves.

We don’t ask these questions because it is far easier to paint those who perpetrate such action as simply ‘evil’. While there is much about ISIS that is ‘evil’ – such simplification does nothing to understand the why.

Alienation mixed with righteous grievance at the manner in which the West molests and perverts any true democratic forces in the Middle East lie at the heart of radical recruitment.

How did ISIS manage to be created in the first place? Glenn Greenwald is devastating in his critique…

The origins of ISIS are not even in dispute. TheWashington Post put it simply: “almost all of the leaders of the Islamic State are former Iraqi officers, including the members of its shadowy military and security committees, and the majority of its emirs and princes.” Even Tony Blair — Tony Blair — admits that there’d be no ISIS without the invasion of Iraq: “‘I think there are elements of truth in that,’ he said when asked whether the Iraq invasion had been the ‘principal cause’ of the rise of ISIS.” As The New Yorker’s John Cassidy put it in August:

By destroying the Iraqi state and setting off reverberations across the region that, ultimately, led to a civil war in Syria, the 2003 invasion created the conditions in which a movement like ISIS could thrive. And, by turning public opinion in the United States and other Western countries against anything that even suggests a prolonged military involvement in the Middle East, the war effectively precluded the possibility of a large-scale multinational effort to smash the self-styled caliphate.

Then there’s the related question of how ISIS has become so well-armed and powerful. There are many causes, but a leading one is the role played by the U.S. and its “allies in the region” (i.e., Gulf tyrannies) in arming themunwittingly or (in the case of its “allies in the region”otherwise, by dumping weapons and money into the region with little regard to where they go (even U.S. officials openly acknowledge that their own allies have funded ISIS). But the U.S.’s own once-secret documents strongly suggest U.S. complicity as well, albeit inadvertent, in the rise of ISIS, as powerfully demonstrated by this extraordinary four-minute clip of Al Jazeera’s Mehdi Hasan with Gen. Michael Flynn, former head of the Defense Intelligence Agency:

…if the West doesn’t want monsters terrorising our cities, perhaps the West shouldn’t fund monsters.

The ISIS abomination is a direct plaything for regional powers like Saudi Arabia with American backing to counter Iranian regional powers backed by Russia. It’s a proxy war with all the Machiavellian morality of Game of Thrones mixed with House of Cards.

We stop this when the West stops backing repressive regimes for oil geopolitics. The likelihood of that however is nil to slim. Radical Islam is a response, misunderstanding that for simply ‘evil’ means we’ll never acknowledge our own economic vested interests in continuing with the righteous grievances which keep the recruiters so busy.

You want to stop alienated Muslim youth creating domestic terrorism, stop alienating them then.

You want ISIS to stop – get the Saudi’s to stop funding them.

You want to end global terrorism – stop America from invading other countries under false pretences that create the vacuums for this radicalism to flourish.

You want Muslims to stop having a reason to attack the West – force Israel into accepting a two state solution and stop the occupation in Palestine.
I’m not defending medieval fanatics causing violence against a modernity they despise, I’m saying there is a reason these things happen and if we don’t understand the reason, we will never find peace.


  1. Hi Martyn

    Thank you for such a great post. So succinct and exactly what should be required reading of all politicians – you need to send this up to the 9th floor of the Beehive. I tried the other day to explain on The Standard my personal reasons why we keep having these terrorist attacks, but I could only explain it in laymen’s terms – bottom line being if we don’t stop meddling and going in uninvited to these ME countries, then of course we are going to get retaliation and it is only going to get worse.

    Thanks for such a great post – so logical and so clear – pity the people who make the decisions in our “so called free world” cannot see it this way.

    • hi w.k.,
      i have been thinking about what citizens in the countries that isis has a stronghold could want.
      medical supplies?
      tenting, shelter?
      educational supplies?
      technology, solar?

      aotearoa could start once a month supply flights to the area and instead of dropping munitions on the country, drop things that are needed.
      perhaps we just send woollen items top start with.
      any other nation would be free to help.

      clearly the ways of the last millenia aint working.

      • Unfortunately RNZAF don’t have the aircraft to accomplish that mission.

        We can air drop stuff as far as Malaysia

        But now that our C130’s are going through life extension programmes. Our 60 year old planes won’t be available on sufficient numbers until 2020/25.

        That mission would be a big deal for NZDF

  2. White colonial guilt complex?
    It’s simplistic to state that neo-isolationism will fix the problem. The genie is out of the bottle. ISIS can fund themselves if people haven’t noticed.

      • Actually we can’t say with any certainty oil is IS largest funding source any more. The territory IS control all though deminishing but is still vast with hundreds of thousands of people.

        The economy doesn’t stop because IS is in charge, they still buy stuff that IS can confiscate for there war effort, they have amassed a vast Arsenal using this technique, of gust picking up weapons off the ground, rape and pillaging the community they claim to protect. Not overly new tactics, but ones I fear are new to modern day commentators / spin doctors.

      • Great point. Everyone that is a part of the world oil market making the price. You and me. Those who use medicine, fertilizers, petrol, ball point pens. They also tax wages from the areas they occupy. Ransoms of Westerners. Contributions from supporters. Make slaves of the non-believers.They have diversified their income stream.
        Imagine if we could defeat the Nazis by saying we should revise the punitive WW1 treaty terms in 1941 and stay out of european politics.. Kumbaya, lala land.
        The title of this blog should be: how we should surrender to terror/”freedom fighters”

  3. A casual conversation between Al bahgdabi and Nicolo Machiavelli about power and control could have been one for the ages

    Machiavelli: The first method for estimating the intelligence of a ruler is to look at the men he has around him.

    Al bahgdabi: Obey me as I obey God and His Messenger; if I disobey them, then you should

    Machiavelli: He who wishes to be obeyed must know how to command

    Al Bahgdadies : oh will you look at that, it’s 12 o’clock prayer time

  4. You want to stop alienated Muslim youth creating domestic terrorism, stop alienating them then.

    You want ISIS to stop – get the Saudi’s to stop funding them.

    Alienated youth around the world don’t become Jihaddists unless they are of a culture that encourages them and offers them something. That something is a Utopian vision of a world where they are masters, where they are free. Free? Yes, free of worry about how to get ahead, how to become somebody, how to live a better life. We in the West live in a system that denies the local youth those things, and immigrant youth run a distant second. No wonder when a Wahabist claims that if they go and fight for ISIL they will get rewards they cant get otherwise they go.

    If we were to be honest about the way youth are alienated by our “centrist” cosy middel class society we would be thanking our lucky stars that South Auckland suburbs don’t embrace Islam. before something else takes hold we really need to rethink out socio economic relations with younger generations across all classes.

    As for Saudi funding, that is what spreads the word among-st the madrasas of the whole Islamic world. That is how the message gets to disaffected youth. Islam needs to look at itself, these Saudi backed nasties declare the other 95% of Islam apostate, especially Sufis and Shiites. We must help stop the funding and assist to create the conditions that the rest of Islam can use to counter these fundamentalists.

    • I think your on the right track. If I could add.

      Environmental degradation in New Zealand is corruption rit large. Stamp that out and we will be will on our way to creating a life worth preaching about.

    • A very large number of ISIS combatants are Saudis. Rich, educated, privileged Saudi Arabians. A very large number of British, German, Australian and French jihadists are also from middle class or well-off environments, are educated, and have experienced privileged.

      I agree 100% that society is alienating the poor, but I do not think this is why a scary number of jihadists travel to Syria to brutalize people.

    • Alienated youth around the world don’t become Jihaddists unless they are of a culture that encourages them and offers them something.

      I can’t speak for “alienated youth around the world”, but in the West alienated youth end up in prisons; committing suicide; mass-shootings (as in the US); or joining gangs or lunatic fringe groups like neo-nazis.

      I don’t think it’s a secret that the West has it’s share of alienated youth. They just have others means to express that disengagement and anger.

      A few; a very tiny minority, find their way into the cold, dead hands of ISIS recruiters.

      Martyn’s assessment is pretty well on the mark.

      And Glenn Greenwald’s explanation as to the origins of ISIS stacks up. A well-organised; welll-disciplined; militarily successful group like ISIS could only have come from the remnants of Saddam’s defeated, disbanded army.

      The thing we should all ponder is, if the tables were reversed; if we in the West were pawns for hegemonic ‘game-playing’ between rival super-powers from the Middle East; had been bombed; invaded; had governments over-thrown and replaced by military dictatorships (usually supported by one or other super-power) – how would we react?

      Would we welcome our Over-lords with love, flowers, and beaming smiles?

      I suspect not.

      • Interesting point. All I can say is that Western states have experienced hegemonic dictatorships, and have defeated them, and have regrouped and recovered. In all instances, embracing the principles of liberty, equality and the rule of law has been the most effective.

        • Really, Steve?

          You’re forgetting that Western states have propped up dictatorships in Latin America, South East Asia, Africa, and the Middle East. Who do you think installed Pinochet in Chile ( The Shah of Iran ('%C3%A9tat – look at the very first paragraph)? And Franco in Spain survived until 1975 – a fascist dictatorship in Western Europe!

          Christ, New Zealand even voted in the UN to maintain the representation from the Pol Pot government , instead of the newly installed regime after Vietnam invaded in 1979. (

          Very few New Zealanders know that disgusting episode of our own history: we voted in favour of Pol Pot to be represented at the UN!

          You might do a refresher in 20th century history. The West is anything but lily-white.

          As for your absurd proposition that the West “embrac[es] the principles of liberty, equality and the rule of law” – bloody hell! Have you seen what Australia (and soon New Zealand) are doing to detainees?

          And remember Guantanamo Bay?

          As I said, the West is hardly a paragon of virtue.

          • Over centries Western states (and by no stretch only Western states) also defeated Caesar, absolute monarchism, catholic theocracy, Nazism, Stalinism, Spanish and Italian fascism, and many other systems of totalitarianism.

            Granted, most of this was imposed on western civilisation by small minorities of elites who came from within Europe, but in most cases it was defeated by a more benevolent movement with supported of a majority and replaced with something more enlightened.

            Bonitas non est pessimis esse meliorem

            Ghandi defeated British imperialism by uniting India under the virtues of democracy, tolerance and equality. On the flip side, Pakistan was united under the the banner of Islam.

            As for the rule of law, no state has ever achieved perfection. But the tenants of democracy, equality, justice and liberty developed in the absence of religion has offered the best chances. For example, see some Scandinavian countries.

            Main point, the best ideals for the dispossessed to fight for are not monotheistic.

            • Dear Steve, the reason we are he today is because of the massive efforts and sacrifice of the Russians and Chinese. Hardly Western states. But yeah we never hear about how crucial they were to the defeat of the Germans and Japanese and the millions that died doing so;24 million in Russia and about the same in China. Your comment absolutely smacks of the Eurocentric, Western hegemonic mindset that abounds amongst Western rulers and regurgitated by Western news media. Please take your blinkers off and start looking at the damage the West has caused in the middle east. Millions have been killed because of lies and greed of Western countries. And then we wonder why young people are radicalised and ‘tarifised’ and what to destroy the West. My last point is that if you think such values you espouse are prevalent amongst Western civilisations then you really need to Wake up and smell the roses. Great article Martyn.

            • Ghandi didn’t defeat British imperialism by uniting India under the virtues of democracy, tolerance and equality.If he had India wouldn’t still have the untouchable Dhalits.

              Ghandi and his role in gaining independence for India are both overrated. WW2 was more of an influence in my opinion.

              • The British proved to themselves that there where limits to how many people the where actually willing to kill, and post WW2, not having enough ships and man power to keep the empire going was a problem.

  5. Is this not victim blaming.

    I grant you that ISIS does not reflect Islam, but the individuals who were murdered in Paris and in Beirut were not aggressors and did not provoke their own deaths!

    I grant you that the US and Saudi have a lot of explaining to do regarding the rise of ISIS, but not the innocent civilians who were murdered in Paris and Beirut.

    Granted again that the Israel/Palestine situation has given good cause for Palestinian Muslims to be angry at the Israeli Government (and other supporting Governments), but do you truly believe that makes randomly chosen civilians in Paris and Beirut legitimate targets?

    It is not ‘us’ versus ‘them’ / ‘us’ versus ‘muslims’. What almost everybody can be united against (including muslims) is the very small faction of Islamism responsible for attacks that places no value on life on earth. They’ll put it aside in an instant if your view of the world differs from theirs, and if they think they can enrich their afterlife.

    • Your post is on point. The Islamists do indeed represent a small fraction of the Muslim population, thought even a small minority is quite sizable. However they are not the only problem. A large minority of other Muslims do not condemn their actions, in fact they support them, either directly or indirectly. These people are the second biggest problem and the main barrier to a reformation in the Islamic faith.

      • Hey well New Zealand has its own problems with its silent large minority of voters who believe our system is so far gone it’s not worth voting.

        We should not allow democracy to crumble like this.

      • A large minority of other Muslims do not condemn their actions, in fact they support them, either directly or indirectly.


        No, Jack, that is so very wrong, it’s hard to know where to start.

        In fact, I remember a similar line being used on a US-based Forum claiming the sanme thing; where were the condemnations from muslim groups.

        To which I offered a similar link:

        The reason you haven’t seen muslim groups condemning the Paris atrocity is because you haven’t looked.

        And look here; even Hamas condemned the attacks;

        That story was reported – not in a muslim media – but in ‘The Times of Israel’.

        It’s not the muslim faith that needs “reformation” – it is your unwillingness to see beyond your own dogma.

        • Alright.. so some Muslim groups condemn the attack, and thus the vast majority do as well? Here are some stats to back my statement:

          Support for terrorism:

          Political domination and support for barbaric religious laws:

          This unwillingness to see the true beliefs of practicing Muslims in the world in very dangerous.

          • Those stats not only do not prove your assertions – they show a wide variety of responses. For example, 90% of Tunisians say that suicide bombings are Never Ok. Unsurprisingly, Gaza – an occupied and beleaguered nation – is much lower, at 28% saying Never Ok.

            Interestingly, 83% of Pakistan says suicide bombings against civilian targets is Never Ok.

            Your own data does not support your position.

            Anyway, you’re shifting the goalposts. You originally stated,

            A large minority of other Muslims do not condemn their actions, in fact they support them, either directly or indirectly.

            Most do not support them, as your data showed.

            • Let’s focus on one of those statistics. Pakistan has a population of 199 million people. Given that 17% of the population have acknowledged that suicide bombings against CIVILIANS is sometimes OK, then logic dictates that 33.83 million Pakistanis can give their support to suicide bombings against civilians in some circumstances. To me, that’s actually quite a big number of people.

              Perhaps it does support Jack’s point.

              • Nope, not at all. No more than a minority of Western populations that might support military action in the Middle East. (And there are plenty of those.)

                Jack’s proposition was;

                A large minority of other Muslims do not condemn their actions, in fact they support them, either directly or indirectly.

                According to the data (which I encourage people to look at:, the majority do not support suicide bombings against civilian targets. It is simply untrue.

                • It’s very interesting data. I agree with you that the majority do not support suicide bombings (assertion drawn from your data), but the number of those who do is scary. Indonesia and Malaysia are the most frightening given neither states have extensive histories of oppressive colonisation. Would lead me to suspect that the inclination towards aggression by the minority is fundamentally driven by religious ideology as opposed to being a response to historical oppression.

                  I’m genuinely interested in differing views.

                  • Yep, it surprised me too, obviously the historical context plays a large role, looking at war-torn and invaded countries such as Gaza, but the religious motivations are quite clear. I honestly am confused by the strong defense of Islamic ideals by people on the left.

                    • I honestly am confused by the strong defense of Islamic ideals by people on the left.

                      “Islamic ideals” no more upset me than ‘Christians’ who try to influence legislation based on tenets in a book that was written over 2,000 years ago.

                      Because, Jack, as I’ve pointed out, it is not “radical Islam” that is the root cause, but the multiplicity of events – many caused by Western intervention – impacting on the lives of people and their institutions in the Middle East.

                      You need to understand these things or else you’re focusing on the symptoms, rather than the causes. The bogeyman of “radical Islam” may suit the media to sell advertising, or governments, to win votes – but in the end they do nothing to enlighten you. “Radical Islam” is an easy target to focus on, but it diverts you from the bigger picture and historical and current events.

                      I’ve given you examples to look at. It’s not hard to understand why they hate our guts. You just need to learn up on it.

                      Another clue: much of ISIS is the remnants of Saddam Hussein’s army;

                      Even Tony Blair recently admitted this:

                      And Tony Blair is no “lefty”.

                • I was probably not specific enough, I consider anything above 10-15% percent to be a fairly large minority when we are talking about the populating levels in those regions.

        • Frank, I was in Java a couple of weeks after 9/11. The Muslim United Front were “sweeping” hotels, demanding to see the guest lists so they could kick US citizens out. While the government did not support this the police did nothing to stop it.
          The streets of Jogjakarta were devoid of tourists and the stallholders were over-keen for us to buy their latest product, a tee shirt showing the twin towers at the moment of impact of the second plane and on the back a photo of a smiling Osama Bin Laden. Telling them the shirt was offensive to Western people so better to push the handicrafts brought uncomprehending looks.There was no reason for these people to hate Americans but they felt they did.
          The West had done nothing to the Bali bombers either.
          They wanted to kill Western infidels. When it was pointed out that they also killed many Muslim and Balinese staff and sex workers their answer was that Muslims in a bar deserved what they got and Balinese, being Hindu, were also infidels.
          Hari ,our driver a recent convert to Islam ( used to be a Protestant but it just got too hard ) was convinced the Jews had organised the whole thing as that was what the Iman preached at the mosque.
          So what I saw first hand during that week in Java supports the statement Jack made.
          I’m not saying that there was not strong condemnation from “many groups” within Indonesia, what I am saying is that the man in the street had no problem with it at all.
          You are a professional arguer so you will shoot me down with tracts stating the opposite, but to reiterate I didn’t read about this behavior, I observed it first hand.

          • Yup, sorry, not gana take your word for it. Because, you know, anonymous people on the internet lie, over embellished there claims and take assumptions way out of context.

            We shouldn’t except such things from conspiracy theorists or random comments on the Internet.

            To even say that any Indonesian had even heard of the name Osama Bin Laden at that time is rubbish. If names travel that far, that fast like you say, then you yourself would be able to name who the criminal mastermind of the Paris attack is.

            Your claims are ridiculous, please provide citation to continue a well reasoned, well rounded debate.

          • You are a professional arguer so you will shoot me down with tracts stating the opposite, but to reiterate I didn’t read about this behavior, I observed it first hand.


            I get paid to do this?

            Damn, no one told me!

            What you really mean by that, Patrick, is a coded way of say that you don’t like my style of debating. Well, sorry if I happen to try to stick to facts and stats, rather than personal anecdotes, like yours, that may or may not be true.

            Thing is, Patrick, if you want to indulge in islamophobia, that’s your prerogative. But please don’t expect others to share your shallow view on world affairs. The situation in the Middle East is complex; decades long; and involves interference from super-powers during the Cold War and struggle to control oil. It involves US support for coups d’état which over-threw civilian governments and replaced by military dictatorships; support for Israeli expansionism and aggression against it’s neighbours; and support for regimes such as Saudi Arabia.

            Extremism can only flourish in such an environment.

            So for you to rant about Islam addresses only the symptoms of western imperialism and not the root cause (western imperialism).

            By the way, ISIS detonated a bomb in downtown Beirut last week;

            Almost overnight, new portraits of victims – many of them children, mostly young boys – who were killed in twin suicide blasts on Thursday have been posted up around the impoverished neighbourhood.
            Isis claims responsibility as suicide bombers kill dozens in Beirut
            Read more

            Islamic State claimed responsibility for the attacks, in which a bomber detonated his explosives next to a crowded bakery as people streamed on to the street after sunset prayers, and then, as onlookers rushed to aid the victims, a second bomber blew himself up just 50 metres up the road.

            With at least 43 dead and hundreds injured, it was Lebanon’s worst bombing since the August 2013 blasts in Tripoli, which killed 47. But if it had not been for Adel Termos, it could have been much worse.

            Witnesses and family members said Termos, a 32-year-old father, rushed to tackle the second bomber from behind after seeing him approach the gathering crowd. The intervention forced the bomber to detonate his suicide vest and is thought to have saved dozens of lives. Termos, however, died in the blast.


            But you wouldn’t know about that atrocity, would you? Your eyes are closed to the suffering of others who do not happen to be western.

          • “There was no reason for these people to hate Americans”
            Do you not know how many Indonesians died when the US got rid of Suharto?

    • How about the innocent Palestianian ,
      civilians of Gaza strip and Westbank that the Israeli army blew away during their last lethal onslaught in 2014 ..over 2000 peolple were killed . do these guys not count Steve…do you think those Israeli bastards place any value on Palestinain lives each time they continually commit their ethnic cleansing.

      • Clearly the IDF does not care about the lives of civilians in Gaza. That does not in the slightest bit detract from the matter at hand. Not only does France not actively support the IDF, it courageously refused to back the US war on terror in 2003. France is not a legitimate target for islamic terrorism.

        • Say what. French Muslims are mostly Arab, of course France was going to be targeted.

          You would think Germany of the U.K. would have been higher up the list but there Muslim populations are mostly Pakistani in the UK an Turkish Muslims in Germany.

          So yeah, France was always going to be disproportionately targeted.

        • What! France doesn’t support the IDF?

          France is notorious for it’s support of Israel. Politicians in France The US and the UK are disgracefully, nearly completely controlled by the Israel\ Jewish lobby.

          80% of Tories belong to conservative friends of Israel, which entails free propaganda trips to Israel to prove their loyalty, no loyalty no pay. It’s a bloody disgrace, that’s why Jeremy Corbyn was such a breath of fresh air.

          I’d be interested to find out if this is happening in NZ.

        • News flash. France increased its sorties from 6 to 20 per day.

          You could have made this comment 2 weeks ago and it would have still been outdated

  6. Brilliant post Martyn. Particularly the following statement –

    “You want Muslims to stop having a reason to attack the West – force Israel into accepting a two state solution and stop the occupation in Palestine.”

    Hear hear.

    Therein lies the major problem, the cause of terrorism as we know it. The plague of the rogue state of Israel and its long term barbaric treatment of Palestinians, along with the western world’s refusal to acknowledge it as the brutal, murdering machine it is, aided and abetted by the USA, supplying the weaponry!

    • Yes Mary_A, the citizens of Paris and Beirut are legitimate targets for terror attacks because… Geee. I dunno…. ISRAEL! wtf?

      • The root cause of an outcome may be the cause, that does not mean it is just.

        The two things can co-exist.

        Mary did not state that her reason given was just or right. Just that it was a reason.

    • The trouble is a two state solution is no longer viable. A two state solution won’t change Israel’s bad behaviour. Israel doesn’t pay any attention to the U.N in the present, why would they pay attention in the future?

  7. One of your most succinct posts ever since the “Dirty politics” saga began Martyn.

    “We never ask ‘why’ these people lash out at us. We never ask what it is that makes them want to hate us with such passion they are prepared to commit savagery upon us and ultimately kill themselves.”

    Yes we never search for what caused it all do we?

    What ever happened to Benjamin Franklin’s words & use of “An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.”

    If President Franklin was here today we would have seen a much different result in the Middle East and the entire world.

    Similarly “A stitch in time saves nine” Meaning: You use this proverb to say that it is much easier to do something to prevent a problem than to deal with it after it has happened. This proverb expresses a similar idea to that of A stitch in time saves nine.

    We have grown an unwise global leadership today clearly.

  8. You put too little weight on the religious causes of these attacks. You don’t get well-off people moving from western countries to kill infidels unless there is some seriously strong beliefs behind it. Islam in its current state across the world is a barbaric ideology (like many religions), it is in dire need of reformation by moderates.

    Is the west the cause of this? Well we played a large part, kicking the lid of the bucket by deposing dictator after dictator, but you are dead wrong if you think the hatred and willingness to slaughter each other (Sunni vs Shia etc) did not exist before, it was kept in check by their leaders. If we hadn’t invaded, well, the Arab Spring would probably have occurred and the same events would likely have happened anyway, perhaps without the same level of weapons. The west is not the sole cause of this conflict.

    • See, now comments like these is why civi’s don’t get to make operational decisions.

      Placing to much emphases on humanities ability to destroy, vs, humanities ability to give. Creates a huge imbalance.

      It takes enormouse time, effort and resources to indoctrinate infantry/jihadis to let go of there natural instinct not to kill other human beings, and replace it with brotherhood.

      The U.S army spends billions a year dealing with the Vietnam era problem of roar recruits shooting over the heads of enemy combatants. Now they believe they have solved this problem by turning war into a video game, and using stand off weapons to overcome the smell of war. Even this style of war is not immune from PTSD. To overcome these challenges the reasons for war must be just at all times.

      Western countries have a massive disparity in industrial capacity to create, vs IS ability to manufacture a life worth living.

      If you believe that some lives are worth saving while others are not, that is a mistake. Because humanities greatest achievements are not in its discoveries, but how those discoveries are applied to reducing the greate inequalities.

      • When people are fanatically religious the threshold to kill people perceived as less than human, a.k.a infidels is much lower.

        • Because they aren’t supposed to have allies, they’re supposed to have enemies and members. It’s something that gets mocked, but they’ve declared themselves Caliphate, that is to say, that they directly speak for Islam, much like how the Pope once was seen as the sole voice of Christianity, and not the other way around as you have been claiming in these comments and others.

          It is the duty of all Muslim’s everywhere to heed them.

          That this is batshit nonsense doesn’t change the fact that they actually do subscribe to this view.

          If we put these ideas to the test, to borrow some of Frank’s post above, I would say 90% of Tunisians, 83% of Pakistanis and 100% of slain Muslim brothers and sisters in the Middle East and around the world, are 100% against your view of the role Islam has on Da’ish.

          The way Al Bagdahdi has organised his hierarchal command structure with him at the top as supreme leader, several tiers of three man teams below.

          one as a local religious leader (ie spouting sharia law) who reports to al bahgdadi

          reporting to the local leader is the local intelligence officer (ie identifying potential people to cut heads off of)

          Reporting to the local Intel officers is the local police chief (ie the guy that rounds up the daily sacrifices)

          Then there are al Bahgdadies inner circle responsibile for brutally crushing any one in the leadership who fails to in act every brutal act as decreed by al bahgdadi himself.

          All this leads me to believe my comments are correct, and your comments need no more correcting

        • How does your ridiculous theory collate with the vastly larger death rate of Palestinians, and Muslims in general
          in comparison to Israeli and Western deaths.

          Is the Hell on Earth created for the innocent people of Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, Syria etc. By America Israel and it’s NATO allies of no consequence to you. You hypocrite.

        • How does that equate with the enormous amount of people the Americans and NATO allies have killed directly and indirectly in the middle east and Afghanistan since 9\11.

          Or were you saying the Americans are fanatically religious?

          • Apologies for the late reply. I wasn’t aware you where into necromancing threads.

            The point is, IS doesn’t give any one a choice other than–

            1) you believe in rape and beheadings. And you will be asked to provide a family member for sacrifice, I don’t want to go into to great a detail but this is how they recruit suicide bombers.

            Choice number 2) you die.

            See when a caliphate is called. Those that are members (which is every one on the planet except for 150k true believers) are basically marked for death. That we can defeat with bombs, planes and boots on the ground. There international terror network is a law enforcement issue.

  9. The West’s meddling in the M.E is a necessary but not sufficient cause of Isis, much in the way the T of Versaille was for the rise of the Nazis. What needs to be added is radical Islam which is not merely a response to anything the West has done- it has been around a lot longer. – But of course that doesn’t fit your hard left paradigm of ‘blame it on the West’. If they were Buddhists do you think they would be bombing Paris. The targets are a cue…a rock concert…this is more than just politics.
    You do realize it was Paris right NOT London or New York? France hasn’t invaded any M.E countries lately. What they have done is bomb ISIS and stood up for secularism and free speech (or ‘insulting the prophet’ as these bastards would have it).

    • “Radical Islam” on an international basis is a relatively recent phenomenon. It has gained converts and recruits after the US invaded Aghanistan and then Iraq. The latter on the pretext of non-existent “weapons of mass destruction”.

      So what did you think radical muslims would do? What do you you think would be their reaction?

      It’s no secret, AW. Many muslims reacted as Britain and France reacted when Germany invaded Poland in 1939 – with considerable displeasure. (You know how that story ended.)

      In the Middle East, the West has created a new state (Israel) which was already inhabited by locals – Palestinians.

      How would you feel if China seized the North Island of New Zealand and gave it to Tibetans as a new homeland? I’m guessing, a tad peed off?

      Then the West interfered in Egypt, Iran, Iraq, and elsewhere, supporting coups and installing puppet regimes.

      How would you feel if the US supported a military coup here, simply because, say, we had a left-wing government that enacted policies they saw as “unfriendly”?

      Then those same regimes enriched themselves, whilst the population became impoverished and unemployed young people had lots of time on their hands. You know the rest of that story; Devil; idle hands; mischief-making aplenty.

      Then there is the whole Palestinian-Israel crisis – a festering sore since 1948. Israel has turned Gaza into an open-air prison and when Palestinians dare fight back, Israel and it’s supporters point and scream, “Look! They’re being aggressive to us!”

      The US has been anything but an honest broker in that debacle.

      And then you get people like “Jack” above who not only doesn;t understand history and 20th century events – but offers spurious arguments why Islam is evil – forgetting that there are a multitude of other forces at work in the Middle East.

      Until people in the West realise what our governments have wrought in our name, this will not end.

      People who feel aggrieved and who have nothing to lose will strike out. We’d do the same if we were occupied or constantly interfered with.

      This has nothing to do with “Radical” Islam. That is a symptom of much deeper political events at play.

      • If China gifted the Nth Island to the people of Tibet, we would not respond by blowing ourselves up in Paris, Beirut or anywhere else. Our common sense of justice would not allow it because our victims would not be aggressors. We would respond by integrating.

        • I don’t know about you, but I would not integrate. Suicide attacks against civilians no – guerrilla warfare against Chinese forces I think would be required. (Off-topic but an interesting scenario)

      • The Muslims in those regions have literally been slaughtering each other for hundreds of years, it is no new phenomenon.

        • Terry – as our European forebears did in the Yugoslavian Civil War, World War Two, World War One, Napoleonic Wars, etc, etc.

          If you want to look at what “cultured” Europe has achieved in terms of wars, look at this list:

          If that doesn’t give you pause for thought, you are made of sterner stuff than I.

          Christians in those regions have literally been slaughtering each other for hundreds of years, it is no new phenomenon.

          War is not an Muslim phenomenon, it is a Human one.

          • Then why don’t we all support throwing off all religion and theocracy, and supporting the development of a post-superstitious world embracing the values of Lucretius, Spinoza, Socrates, Darwin, Galileo, Thomas Paine, Helen Kelly, Avicenna…

            Forget about the hateful riddles uttered by Muhammed, the inane and inarticulate preachment of Christ, the divisive and unscientific principles of Buddha. Teach all of that as nothing but myth and legend in history classes to give insight into the worst dispositions of human animals – credulity and superstition beyond reason.

            Let’s see that world fall into totalitarianism and famine, in the absence of pathetic medieval quarrels.

            If there was any empire fighting for this, I would back it. Until then, I can only support the closest alternative by supporting states that are at least democratic and secular.

            I strongly oppose any interference that calls for the watering down of democracy and separation of church and state (or reversal of the progress that has been made) in order to protect the sensibilities of the adherents of stupid and outdated forms of magic like orthodox Islam and Christianity.

            You might have noticed that most Western states abandoned the Church when it decided to team up with Nazism. Repealed all blasphemy laws, removed religious representation, defunded, etc. A work in progress because the bastards still receive tax breaks…

            I am on the left on almost all issues, but not when it comes to protecting religious sensibilities. A key reason I am left is I believe it is fundamentally important to defend the poor and the weak, but rearranging affairs in order to defend religious sensibilities is stupid.

      • Why why why do lefties always drag Israel into this? Isis in their statement did not mention Israel.
        “As long as they dare to curse our Prophet (blessings and peace be upon him), and as long as they boast about their war against Islam in France and their strikes against Muslims in the lands of the Caliphate with their jets”

        Sounds like religion to me.
        The left’s obsession with Israel mystifies me.

        • The left’s obsession with Israel mystifies me.

          The fact you do not understand Israel’s role in Middle Eastern affairs not only mystifies me, but disappoints me.

          I gather you’ve not been following events in the Middle East since 1948?

  10. I agree with most of what you say, although I believe that your question “why these people lash out at us” is actually asked many times, but the answer eludes the leadership It’s not what they want to hear, and I have this awful memory of Bush Jnr saying “They hate our way of life” as a justification for unleashing hell on the Afghans and the Iragis. Now the French President is pledging to destroy ISIS. Hello? Does this sound familiar? Should we be worried?

  11. Yellow Peril:

    Any of this sound familiar? Just replace the relevant parts i.e. ‘Asian’ becomes ‘Arab’.

    Unfortunately out of this terrorist attack, the far-right, including the French National Front, will spread fear and hatred about migrants and refugees escaping wars, poverty, and problems in their own countries.

    They don’t want to imagine that these are people suffering. All they want to believe about them is that they are all ‘criminals’ or ‘dirty’ and that ‘Muslims or ‘Arabs’ are ‘invading Europe’ or wherever.

    After messing up the Middle East, the least we could do is offer shelter and safety to those that struggle to leave the chaos, rather than abandon them to their fate. Unfortunately some people here in the west have no heart, and just fill themselves with the hate and fear-mongering from the far right.

  12. Tautoko. A sensible summary of insanity. And fly Noam’s wisdom as our flag ‘stop terrorism… stop participating in it’.

    • In practice, what your really saying is jail bankers.

      Which is a huge problem because every one try’s to buy oil as cheap as possible and sell it to the highest bidder. If you buy below market rates or on the black market, that’s a mister meaner at best because it’s hard to prove the buyer and seller actually meet face to face.

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