It only took 4 hours to decide on 4 awful flags?

1. 4 hours? Subtract the coffee breaks, the visits to snazzy restaurants, and all the arduous labor of only picking two finalists, and it is more like 4 seconds of the panel hive mind’s time.

2. It seems a weird process. I thought after people had submitted their ideas for flags than designers were going to look at the results and use them to inspire proper designs. I didn’t think we were going to be left with flags designed by amateurs and picked out by amateurs.

   It does get a bit tiring seeing things being continually done in a second rate way, decisions being made on the hoof without any forethought or policies put in place when they have demonstrably failed everywhere else.

   • Yep. The current flag is going to remain, as the ‘panel’ and the Nats messed up the flag debate, only giving NZ’ers two choices aka Hynoflag or Fern Flag in a different color. I can see the second referendum being a firm ‘no’ to flag change, unless by some miracle people think the current flag is worse than the proposed ones.

3. 4 hours is idiotic but there’s a lot more going on here that just that laughable piece of news.

   National Party insider Grant McLachlan appears to be openly warring with his own party because they wouldn’t chose his preferred fern design. It scarcely seems believable but this has the look of a PR campaign about it.

   As well as the Stuff story there’s this article at the Herald from McLachlan himself http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11510969 and this other one about Julie Christie’s ridiculous conflict of interest. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11511139

   And it’s mostly coming out on a Friday when it will be hard for the rest of National to organise a counter offensive.

   Not only that but something I think is incredibly important is that McLachlan has given us a very clear description of how the National Party PR machine works:

   “National has several levels within its organisation that try to sway public opinion. Groups target talkback radio, social media, surveys, and media polls. Crony commentators manipulate, obfuscate, smear, and stigmatise.”

   It’s been obvious to regular commentors here that there has been systematic targetting of this blog by professional trolls – and I say professional because they are very disciplined about what they do, and never engage with anyone who starts to analyse their behaviour.

   The problem in the past has been that anyone who claims this is systematic can be accused of believing in conspiracy theories. But not now. Now we can just quote Grant McLachlan back at them.

   So isn’t this the real news? These articles are just more evidence that the flag change is a farce but is going on behind it is that National insiders are picking a fight with the PM over his vanity project, of all things. And they’re so determined to win that they’ve spilled the beans on how their PR machine operates in the process!

   From now on, every piece of trolling should be met with that quote.

   • Thanks Aaron – so noted.

   • I read this article too Aaron, and the flag debate seems secondary to other information that Grant McLachlan was revealing. The dark inner workings of the National party, that many JK supporters deny exists.
     And this quote:
     “On Facebook, where most people use their real names, all comments and shares can be monitored, analysed, and categorised. In the blogosphere, commenters’ physical location (aka IP address) is traceable.” …So they know where you live.

4. […] plus all the other costs of updating the flag […]

   It’s good to see this issue finally surfacing, the referendum cost will be trivial. I guess it’s the bureaucratic CAPEX vs OPEX argument, keep the up-front costs down so we can get the project approved, then there will be jobs for the boys forever, administering the “wholly unexpected” long term maintenance costs.

   • +1
     (another reason our Pubic Service is fucked btw – the Capex versus Opex bit)

5. Another loyal New Zealander who loves and respects his country and its symbols, right or wrong, expresses his point of view in a calm and reasoned manner.

   • The original flag is fine and should remain as the NZ flag. There are so many on-going issues such as housing crisis and the Syrian refugees that could benefit from the money, instead of wasting it on a flag. Besides, i feel that the current NZ flag represents New Zealand’s history and people, a change would only mean a loss of identity.

     “The New Zealand flag is the symbol of the realm, government and people of New Zealand. Its royal blue background is derived from the ensign of the Blue Squadron of the Royal Navy. The stars of the Southern Cross emphasise this country’s location in the South Pacific Ocean. The Union Jack in the first quarter recognises New Zealand’s historical origins as a British colony and dominion” (Nzhistory.net.nz).

     Yes, good effort in creativity, however, why the wastage on cost of changing something that nobody had a problem with to begin with, when it could perhaps be invested into the NZ housing crisis for example?

6. Given how bad the flag designs are I can easily believe it took them only 4 hours. And apparently at the last minute they got a few experts in to help them out. Talk about a farce.

   • Talk about a farce? This isn’t about John Key, it’s about the flag.

7. I heard this news on National Radio last night and thought the panel deciding on the final four only had four hours. When I went to the Stuff article below, it seemed that the panel had asked a group of designers their opinion but only on technical matters and not on the designs themselves (although I don’t see how that would have helped anything) and it was this group that only had four hours to make a decision. Not sure what the story is now.

   http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/71941611/panel-advising-on-new-flag-cobbled-together-advice-from-designers

   • I have to agree that the Stuff article does not represent four hours as the total decision time for the panel, just the length of time which they consulted with the design advisory group. However I do question why only; “some members of the consideration panel”, were present. Also who were the people on this panel? One seems to have links to Nike (though I can’t recall, or link, to where I read that now), who were the others?

     An official information request shows the Flag Consideration Panel (FCP) sought advice from a group that included two professional designers, two advisers from the visual arts community, and experts in several other areas.

     The advisory group met for four hours in Wellington, along with some members of the consideration panel

     Certainly, the whole process of flag long- and short-listing seems suspect:

     Ardern also questioned the decision by Arts, Culture and Heritage Minister Maggie Barry – as one of the responsible ministers for the flag process – to wear a pin showing one of the four short-listed flags, and to put that flag in her North Shore electorate office.

     Clearly Barry had made a choice, which raised questions as to whether that had influenced her decisions through the process

     The conduct of the selection panel, and the responsible ministers, would certainly seem grounds for a legal challenge (not necessarily just from Red Peak supporters either):

     The flag change legislation included a clause allowing a group of 200 or more registered voters to apply to the High Court to examine the conduct of either or both referendums. The conduct in question would need to be at a scale that would alter the outcome of the vote.

     Under these rules, the court could agree with the applicants and declare the result of the referendum void. In this case, a fresh vote would be held.

     http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/71854321/flag-change-rules-might-allow-legal-hearing-on-red-peak-flag

8. Great article yesterday in the Herald on line (at least) by Grant McLachlan on the flag and the way National operate. Written by an ex National campaign manager it was very interesting although merely confirmed what was in Dirty Politics.

   I think there can be little doubt the whole flag process is a jack up from start to finish. John Key only plays to win and his flag was never going to not make it to the final show down.

   The question is will the vote next year be just as dodgy?

9. And it is of zero surprise that 3 of the 4 designs feature the silver fern as advocated by The John Key in his preferred flag doodle that some utter idiot paid an eye-watering $10,150 for on TradeMe.
   http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2010/02/bid_for_the_key_flag.html
   http://tvnz.co.nz/content/3368258

10. John Key has already said he favoured a fern didn’t he? The decision was made.

11. The flag diversion is really working and we have forgotten TTPA so Key must be over the moon that this scrap over a dumb flag is taking the heat off him for the sinking economy and dirty polls and elections.

    I would even wager Planet key is using this vote rigging for the flag “referendum as much as he did the last three elections.

12. I refer to the argument above of the flag debate and imagine the rigged result for the referendum will involve this method also as any transfer of electronic recording and transfer of numbers can be altered as they point out here below.

    http://m.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/114412/Hacking_Democracy__Full_Length/

13. “National has several levels within its organisation that try to sway public opinion. Groups target talkback radio, social media, surveys, and media polls. Crony commentators manipulate, obfuscate, smear, and stigmatise.”

    – http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11510969

    Hmmmmm, is that right?

    That explains a few things about certain user-names posting here on a regular, dedicated basis…

    • Yes Frank, what I was wondering is why there are signs of dissension in the ranks when I read that article.

      It was more than a little chilling that National are gathering that much information on the public too, but it all makes sense with Keys delayed responses and his half arsed compromises on so many issues while they crack the whip on Farrar to put together a plausible script and sell the public a lie. A lie that’s done in such a confusing way that no one really knows what is going on.

      I’m guessing the strategy is when Key has no script complete with approved words and phrases, its get the cute dog photo-op out or refuse interviews. It explains just why Key the puppet has been caught lying so often, his marionettist has gone missing. Or as in parliament, when put on the spot, he does his lame joke routine because he can’t answer the question, there’s no script to read from, he’s utterly hopeless.

      Key is no genius, rather his support crew give and they can taketh away just as easily. His whole position is one of perpetual compromise. Whatever it is, its bloody cynical and bad for NZ.

      • Key is not a genius but he is very dedicated and very very hard to rattle. Someone from a community group down here in Canterbury was telling me about a visit by Key and Brownlee before the election. Key was constantly observing, thinking and asking questions, they said you could almost see the cogs turning, the calculations being made, while Brownlee was just interested in feeding his face.

14. You’re right Cleangreen – the distraction of the rugby World Cup and the flag is leaving the TPPA in the dust.
    That’s good marketing. Crosby Texter are doing what they have been paid well to do!

15. Keep the current flag! None of us should rise to the bait and say anything more about it. If I wanted to change the flag, it certainly wouldn’t be to one of those: one might as well staple an old butter wrapper to a stick and hang it out the window.

16. Martin
    I have cared for people with leprosy in my nursing career – your use of the word “lepers” is As offensive as “niggers” and I’d like to see you apologise as I know you are a humanitarian

17. Branding is what they call it. It is like Brand Key which is the way the National Party markets itself.

    The people who have been on the flag gravey train must be laughing, easy money for f*** all work, what a joke this whole flag exercise has been, however like other commentators are saying it is taking the heat off John Key and his very poor handling of the NZ economy.

    Overseas borrowing $105 Billion and climbing.

    • Yes Jack Shokeys mission Given from Bilderberg was to bankrupt NZ so they could take it over at fire sale prices like they did to Greece.

      Shonkey told us he was “In the club” and he has attended the secretive Bilderberg meetings there with holding the evidence.

      http://twochurchesonly.com/volume-1/supmat/03/most_influential/bilderberg_group/list_of_bilderberg_attendees.pdf

      List of Bilderberg participants
      New Zealand
      • John Key (2011-2012), Prime Minister of New Zealand

      Shonkey will sell us out before he leaves for Hawaii & NY finally.

      In NY Key has already arranged to have built a NZ Government ministerial apartment at a cost of over ten million, with our taxpayers money already.

      http://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/home-property/69701478/NZ-government-shells-out-11m-on-New-York-apartment-for-UN-representative

      “NZ Government shells out $11m on New York apartment for UN representative”

      Dom Post.
      VERNON SMALL
      Last updated 19:29, June 25 2015

      “The Government has shelled out almost $11 million on a luxury New York apartment for our man at the United Nations.

      Gerard van Bohemen, who was previously deputy secretary at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade and responsible for multilateral and legal affairs, was appointed New Zealand’s new permanent representative at the United Nations in February.

      The US$7.9 million pied-a-terre in Manhattan’s Zeckendorf Development’s 50 United Nations Plaza lists the buyer as “Her Majesty the Queen in Right of New Zealand”.

      “A spokesman for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade confirmed the apartment in New York had been bought as the residence for the Head of Mission.

      He said it cost $10,975,228.”

      This facility you can bet your boots he will have made provision for him to use the facility after he retires from PM & goes to NY the carpetbagger, traitor, creep.

18. Daily blog you guys should do a blog on how John Key/National has sculptured the tone and dialect used in political debate by NZ citizens/national supporters you wonder why national keeps getting in and nothing scratches him it’s cult of personality whenever John Key is questioned on anything he gives a half assed few lines that hardly explains anything in an a keep it stupid simple tone which supporters imitate and are able to win any argument and support anything key does or says by playing dumb and keeping it ignorant it’s cult of personality it’s because this keep it stupid simple attitude is seen as what represents the average kiwi, people associate it with allblacks etc.

19. John Key knows how to speak “kiwi”. Which is unfortunately not a great thing.

20. National supporters will always support key because they use the same keep it simple stupid dialect he uses when he is questioned it connects with kiwi’s because it’s viewed as representing “kiwiana” in a sense makes them feel patriotic.

21. From the outset this process has been flawed and this just proves it. In my opinion a serious consideration of a new flag should take as long as is necessary…months or even years if it means producing something that will be a unifying symbol of who we are NZ’ers. I am a National voter, but this whole thing stinks.

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