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  1. Thank you Curwen. I have never been a fan of NZF since they went with National after campaigning against them. I was pleasantly surprised at the obvious hum at your latest conference and am prepared to almost concede that your party may be a little more than a one-man band. However , bearing in mind that Ron Mark and Shane Jones are right wingers, I would insist that your party declare its colours before the election.
    If you are going to aim at the rural electorate then it is obvious which way Winston will go. So ,in my book, he is totally untrustworthy unless he declares.

  2. “If not outright more ardently, due to the far more recent (in the case of the Greens) … nature of their offending.”

    What?

  3. Curwen, I respect both you and Frank for your skills and dedication. On this issue, tho, I think Frank has raised a valid point.

    Time will tell, I guess.

  4. I’ll go with you Curwen,

    “This is one of the many reasons why I keep advocating #BlackGreen2017” said Curwen.

    We live in very dangerous time now with a clear fascist government!!!

    While NatZ are deliberately flooding us with immigration to water our
    society all down, which most recognise as Genocide.

    So knowing Winston’s record on this subject I am with him as we need his principals on this criminal attempt to water our way of life down, as NatZ are doing deliberately.

    So a green/Black sounds feasible at least because “desperate times demands we use any method top counter the evil besetting us all.

  5. Hi Curwen

    i agree that NZF along with the Greens have been staunchly critical of the TPPA, but i really worry that will change if the pro-TPPA Shane Jones joins the parliamentary team.

  6. Kia ora, Curwen,

    An excellent critique of my earlier blogpost. If someone is going to contest a position I’ve put forward, I appreciate a methodical response. You’ve certainly achieved this.

    A few points, if I may…

    1.

    Probably the biggest clanger is something which Frank hasn’t directly referenced – Winston’s in-public support for the privatization of a state asset (namely, the Auckland Airport).

    Indeed, I left that out of my piece – though I did refer to it later, in a message (https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2016/09/07/expose-winston-peters-the-1997-speeches-and-neo-liberal-tendencies/#comment-351772) in response to something Strypey said.

    I’m well aware of NZ First’s enabling of the privatisation of Auckland Airport. I’m also aware that Wellington Airport was next on the agenda, had it not been for massive public opposition and the National-NZ First’s deteriorating position in the polls.

    This is an issue I was planning for a follow-up piece, along with other instances such as Peters not following through on his election promise to buy back forestry cutting rights for the Kaingaroia Forest, that the previous Bolger-led National government had flogged off to Chinese interests in 1996. (See: https://fmacskasy.wordpress.com/2014/03/31/winston-peters-recycles-pledge-to-buy-back-state-assets-where-have-we-heard-that-before/)

    Another day perhaps.

    2.

    But we all have pasts – particularly those of us who’ve effectively spent something like forty years straight in politics – and while previous actions can be quite instructive in helping us to understand where someone’s come from … I find myself customarily FAR more interested in what they’re doing now (or, for that matter, over the last ten to twelve years) as compared to what they were doing quite literally almost twenty years ago.

    I can’t disagree with that. My early years (teens and 20s) were extremely right-wing in many respects. Gosman would’ve nodded in approval at my early, uninformed political beliefs at thew time.

    Only my interest in environmental issues and the Western sabotage of the democratically elected Allende government in Chile made me re-assess my beliefs. That, and Sonja Davies’ late son, Mark, who taught me to question everything.

    (Rest in peace, Mark, and thank you for being patient with me at the time.)

    So if Winston Peters has shifted on the political spectrum, that is not unreasonable, considering my on-going evolution in beliefs.

    3.

    Winston himself, and to his credit, not only walked out of Government in protest against National’s ongoing neoliberal agenda … but even, later that decade, outright apologized to the nation for ever going into coalition with the Nats in the first place.

    Agreed. I can’t contradict that point.

    4.

    Further, consider the other party which Frank has identified as being of the (supportable) “left” in this country. Labour.

    Hmmm, that bit is contestable. A charitable person would describe Labour as “center-Left. An uncharitable person would describe them as perpetuating the neo-liberal system.

    As several pointed out, it was National that raised the benefit by $25 a week. Labour had eight years to rectify Ruth Richardson’s diabolical welfare cuts in 1992 – and did nothing.

    5.

    New Zealand First lead the charge against the TPPA in Parliament.

    I contest that. The vast majority of activists “leading the charge” were either Mana Movement or from various other left-wing groups, unions, etc.

    I did happen to see a NZ First flag at some rallies – but so were the Pirate Party present.

    6.

    In summary – as I said at the outset, I often have considerable time and regard for what Frank publishes. I mean him no disrespect (in fact, quite the contrary) by seeking to engage with, critique, and riposte against his most recent piece.

    Nope, I’m honoured. You’ve taken time, effort, and assembled evidence to support your position. That’s not “disrespectful” – that’s quite a compliment.

    7.

    New Zealand First has undeniably and unquestionably made some graven mistakes in the past. Many of us are amongst the first to acknowledge this. But we have also made strident and stringent contributions to the political good of our nation – often, although not exclusively, in the field of repealing and rolling back dire neoliberal ‘reforms’ wrought and put into play by parties other than our own.

    To be honest, Curwen, if I’m wrong in this piece and Peters decides to support a Labour-Green government to roll back neo-liberalism, then I’ll be doing a little happy dance; apologise profusely for doubting; and shout you a very long round of drinks at The Backbencher’s pub.

    This is one occasion where I really, really, really want to be wrong.

    1. We are all hoping this Frank for NZ;s sake mate.

      Well said with wonderful elegance I am very impressed you are a gem.

      1. I agree, Cleangreen. Frank is not noted for tolerating fools, but his measured response to Curwen indicates (I think) that he holds the young man in high regard.

        Time will tell who is right on this issue.

    2. Yep – I would like to be wrong about Winston too. Once bitten, twice shy. He said all the right things beforehand last time.

    3. A heartwarming example of ‘how to disagree constructively’ at its finest. 🙂

      While I usually have to agree with all Curwen writes about NZF, I have never voted for them and never would…

      As long as they will not commit themselves in advance to what’s right, rather than what’s politically expedient.

      Under our MMP, the Maori party seem the prime example of a party that will do whatever it takes to be in government (expediency).

      The Green party ‘ will do whatever it takes not to be in government’ (values, doing the right thing rather than the expedient thing).

      And NZF will keep people in the dark about what it will do.

      Again and again we read …’and in this latest poll, (yet again) NZF will decide on who gets to govern, Winston is kingmaker’, and variations on that theme.

      Though larger than NZF, the Greens have never been cited as possible kingmakers precisely due to letting it be known, consistently and in advance, that there are levels (like everyday business under National) to which they just will not stoop.

      Respect for consistent ethical choices can be slow to arrive, especially when winning by expediency looks so clever and laudable. So clever and laudable that having zero ethics starts looking like the greatest virtue.

      We have a party which says (once you’ve learnt to see past the lies) ‘Vote for us first and then you’ll find out how we intend to wreck society.’

      If NZF wants to avoid the continuing risk of looking like National in sheep’s clothing, I believe it will one day have to take the plunge and risk losing in a good cause.

      To have people vote for it because they know they can trust it, not in the hope that it won’t betray them.

    4. Frank;

      To admit you may be wrong shows real strength of character. I applaud you.

      To bring up something from so long ago,what were you thinking?

      It’s time to get on board with NZF now Frank.

      We now know how the Deep State works and I put it to you who else will carry the banner of Nationalism and Sovereignty.?

      National,Labour,Greens really are controlled by off shore forces whether you
      are prepared to admit it or not. (Think Geoff)

      With this new Green leader I would not be surprised if they went with National
      to push Key over the line again in 2017 (he still has much work to do) if it meant
      keeping Winston out of power.
      Greens usually go with the right in Europe in their MMP systems (eg Germany)

      People can change their politics when confronted with new and up to date
      information like you yourself have already alluded too.

      Below is Winston’s State of The Nation speech 2016 ALL NZ’s should read.

      And a couple more, in order, of 2016.
      Thank god we still have the independent website http://www.scoop.co.nz/index.html

      http://community.scoop.co.nz/2016/01/rt-hon-winston-peters-state-of-the-nation-speech/

      http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1602/S00340/winston-peters-speech-realising-real-opportunities.htm

      http://business.scoop.co.nz/2016/02/27/speech-by-new-zealand-first-leader-winston-peters/

      Bonus. See Tracy’s well researched speech on education.
      http://nzfirst.org.nz/updates/speeches

      Finally my comment from elsewhere.

      Winston could be our Trump if we all got in behind. He is the Nationalist.

      ie,Gain enough votes to beat Labour and Greens thus becomes PM. !!

      Spread the word.

      The idea whose time has come.

      http://www.reenagagneja.com/ron-paul-3/

      Cheers.

      1. Here we see NZ First key messages for trying to pull votes from the Greens:
        * Greens are overseas controlled.

        I know of no reason to be believe this. Evidence please?

        * Greens will support National in 2017.

        This is delusional. Greens have already indicated they will probably go with Labour, via the MoU. They declare before each election who they will consider working with, and they stick to it, unlike NZ First who insist on leaving us guessing until after the election.

        * Greens usually go with “the right” in Europe, so they will in NZ.

        Each Green Party makes its own decisions about who to work with, based on the political situation in their own country. In the neo-liberal age, its not always obvious from a distance who is “left” and who is “right”. Some would argue that the Greens working with NZ First would be going with “the right”.

        As for “Winston could be our Trump”, yes, there are vague similarities in some of their nationalist and anti-immigration rhetoric, but comparing Winston to a corporation-owning, capitalist buffoon like Trump is an insult to Winston that I don’t think he would have deserved even at his 1996-8 worst.

    5. If you think Labour is “center-left”, then I’d suggest having a look at where politicalcompass.org had Labour for the 2014 election.

      1. …and here it is:
        https://www.politicalcompass.org/nz2014

        Interesting that the Greens were far more “left” in 2014 than any other party except Mana, and at the same time the most “libertarian” party on the spectrum by far.

        Honestly, in my darker moments I fantasize about strapping down every news media staffer in the country in one of those forced-viewing chairs from A Clockwork Orange, and making them stare at this for at least a few days. Hopefully that would put paid to the delusional nonsense they routinely spout about which parties inhabit “the centre”, and whether that’s even a good thing.

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