1. I moved to the Green party when they started doing what Labour stopped doing – fighting for the working class and below. Chris is right, they need to move away from the culture stuff and back to, basically class issues. As for the environment, that’s basically the icing on the cake to me, their starter for ten, but what really improved their appeal, was fighting along class lines. Likewise, what is driving them to the wall, is focusing on divisive culture/woke issues, issues that do not address, in anyway, shape or form, the economic climate of today. The secret ingredient to a richer, more inclusive, more environmentally friendly culture is economic security. Thus, it comes across to me that the Green party are arse about-face on their priorities at the moment.

   • So Israel killing 13K children is a culture war issue that should be ignored I guess…

     • It’s a testament, to today’s rotten world of politics and media, that this, one of the greatest catastrophes of our lifetime, barely gets the attention/coverage it deserves. But is it a culture war – not in my book.

2. The phrase that is objected to has been used at least once may be more by Netanyahu. Something like “from the river to the sea there will be nothing but Israeli sovereignty.” Seems to deny the Palestinians the right to a state, which is a big complaint about people like Hamas.

   As far as Trotter goes, he’s always been a fair bit anti-Green, characterising them as extreme left rather than sort of left middle-class party that they are. I’ve been following his blog and commenting their for twenty or thirty years now and have just given up. His columns have pretty much gone downhill for the last few years. Occasionally I read some of his stuff and can’t for the life of me understand it. He’s quite contradictory at times – one minute he’s castigating Kathryn Ryan as right wing and the next thing he’s praising her for being leftish. I think it’s him that shifted rather than her to be honest. One day he’s accusing people of anti-Semitism, and the next day he lets a blatant anti-Semitic remark go through without comment. Have his politics shifted since I bought his book? Is it the beginnings of dementia? I dunno, but something weird has happened.
   He is also letting people post anti-vax and other conspiracy theories on his site under the guise of free speech. This is been going on for at least six months or so now. That got me close to giving up his blog, and his support for Israel’s overreaction in Gaza was the last straw.

   • Yes, had enough of him too, won’t be visiting or posting on his blog again. I excused his vacillation over the years on the basis that he had to have an earner, and columnists and pundits do have a ratio of expected views and contrary views to keep things going.

     Mr Trotter has now moved onto what those with a marxist world view would term right opportunism–and he is quite clear about it. If age or something else is taking its toll it is a pity he could not have just turned off the MacBook and retired rather than spruiking for the other side!

     Chloe is going to be under immense pressure if the way other non Natzo female politicians have been treated in this country is anything to go by. She needs support from as many of us as possible not the nasty Trotter approach.

     • She certainly is going to be under pressure. I know that female politicians get far more aggro on social media than males. And are not treated with quite so much respect by the press.

       • Clearly you weren’t paying attention at the media’s treatment of Jacinda 2017 – 2022

         • There was adulation certainly, but that was largely I suspect due to the emergency situation of Covid, where people did appreciate very much her reaction and policy. But I guarantee you’d be shocked by the comments on social media. The science is out there – women get more aggro and of a different type to men, up to and including rape threats. And this happens all over the world, not just in NZ.

         • Clearly you weren’t. What are you on?

     • Tiger, it would appear that something has “turned” Trotter. Money has a very powerful influence on “opinions”. Maybe it’s that, maybe not.

       I used to comment at Bowalleyroad until the so called “pandemic” when Trotter and his fellows became autocratic vax zealots. It was like creeping totalitarianism. At that point I signed off from Trotterism and his adherents.

       • That evidence free insinuation is unworthy.

       • That’s funny, I signed off for the exact opposite reason, that he was letting nutty anti-vax people express their views after saying he would censor them. After all, he has no obligation to give the nutters any freedom of speech, neither has any other private entity including this one.
         If you’d seen some of the comments he has to regularly censor, and I have (and you should have if you’d been commenting there for a long enough time), even you might agree.

         • If they’re nutters, then you should have been able to wipe the floor with them. Every uninformed – nutty – sod is merely an opportunity to set the record straight, after all….

           • Here’s the thing. You don’t change their minds. One of those nutters gave a list of references for his anti-vax views. I spent hours looking them up and constructing a demolition of both them and their positions. Because that’s what Trotter said we should be doing, in spite of Brandolini’s law. Fine – did it changes mine? No of course not because “he done his own research.” In case you’re unfamiliar with Brandolini’s law it says it takes a fuckton more time to debunk someone’s idiotic position than it takes for them to write about it. Why should I waste my time doing that when it’s going to have no result? Mockery is the only answer.

             • Its not about changing minds. Its nah impossible trying to change the mind of a rational person, let alone an irrational person.

               It is about countering their views, ensuring that whomever else may be reading is getting the other side of the story, thus allowing them to work things out between these sides, thereafter.

               A one-sided story is bad for everyone. But allowing both sides to be aired, this leads to a much better informed public thereafter.

               • Yeah right. Unfortunately as the saying goes, “A lie and get halfway around the world before the truth has got its trousers on.” I think your view is just a little naive.
                 And no private entity is obliged to give anyone a platform. I’ve been censored on Trotter, I’ve been censored here. Don’t like it but it’s the way things are.

               • Nope, my view isn’t the least bit naive – its basic communication. We, the people, from a political standpoint, we simply cannot get enough of this.

                 As for censorship, what does history show as to whom censorship ultimately serves….

                 • 1. Yes it is.
                   2. As I said, private entities have no obligation to give you a platform. I pretty much know this because every time I mention Bradbury’s obsession with “woke” and “identity politics” I get censored.
                   3. Only the government owes you free speech.

           • as they are as thick as pig shit being proved wrong has no effect they just carry on

   • It’s definitely Him that’s shifted. I think it probably started after the loss of His BFF Gerry. Bloody certain of it actually. From someone that was once quite useful in the cause (social and economic justice; equality/equity in outcomes and all that sort of stuff), to a tragic old poseur desperate to remain relevant.
     In searching for new best frenz and to remain relevant, he’s stumbled on the likes of Sean Plunket, and it seems he’ll sell His soul to achieve it.

3. I’m pretty sure Winston is calling for a full cease fire. Clearly he’s been polling this. Where the fuck is God. Why the fuck are we letting the devil win.

   • That Jake Tame interview with Chloe really was utter bullshit and I thought he had the grace to look somewhat ashamed after it as she was the victor in that discourse for sure. I sometimes find that Tame does not attack or questions hard enough when he should and then goes way way waay overboard when there is no need to, like in this instance. A wasted opportunity to shine a light on ‘the victims of the victims’ as Edward Said calls the Palistinians and he is still the one to read about what’s going on over there as nothing has changed just the scale of the hate which has got so outrageous even Winston Peters is calling it a bit out of hand! Pretty mild description of the genocide and annilation taking place. Check article in Guardian today.
     Yeah what’s the reason Jack, new government eh? Surely not. Yeah and that supportive comment about Crusher Collins raised a doubt or two.
     Chris Trotter is didactic anc can say some out there stupid shit… it’s too bad as he can have a great way with words.

     • Let’s make our positions clear. We can not and are not in a position to push Bibi into a corner. I actually think we can agree on and come to conclusions over a two state solution.

       Even if we select solutions that are morally good if enough people have a strong enough sense of where we are headed.

       There are things that we do in New Zealand or war from Israel/Palestine that we don’t really know if they are bad or good but there is a subset of things that we know full well are not to be done that we could stop doing just to see what happens.

       It’s like is there something underneath love and war that unites “love and war” that invites participation…

       We can have a coherent conversation about love and vis versa war but when we participate there’s a common structure and so if we take a moral stance it makes us horrible and bitter people. It can logically follow that if we can not comprehend the factors of love and war then it is certain that we multiply those factors beyond comprehension.

       Maybe it’s try and reduce lying and aim at the truth.

   • Yeah it’s unbelievable. Ratinyahoos response was illegal and way over the top from the start, as if Hammas didn’t know it would be. The whole situation is so fucked, and the Palestinian peoples suffering is hell on earth in front of our very eyes.

   • Seems like we’ve shut God out of everything, so He’s giving us a taste of the consequences.

     • Right, that must be the reason………not

4. I was inspired by this to go and have another look at Trotter’s blog site which I haven’t done for months now. There’s one guy there that made a very cogent comment. I can’t quote it in full, because I wouldn’t want to offend your delicate sensitivities with his “wokeness” and “identity politics” – but he seems to have Trotter summed up to a T at the moment.
   “This is the latest in a series in which you expound NZ First positions while trying to tie it to your previous political beliefs.” Sums it up in a nutshell to me.

   • Think that’s about right great GS.

5. It seems to me that starting politically correct wars amongst ourselves at full white hot level is counter-productive. As bad nearly, as the culture wars which want to drag women/woemen/whoamen down and reverse cultural gains, by demanding more and more. It’s streaming out of the nest like hornets, which seem to be super wasps, that frightens and limits possible betterments.

   Let’s not start arguing fiercely and combatively with those who are looking at different ways to achieve what are, at the end of the day, the same ends. We don’t want to become bottom feeders in the quest for clear understanding of our future and continuation of lives of those who have earned their stripes by striving for forward movement while holding onto past virtues, like being on good terms, trust in commitment to purpose, flexibility of thought to a certain point etc.

   Perhaps that is how James Shaw was trying to act. But if wisdom is too elusive for supposed compatriots one is best in the end-game to release the ties that bind. But that should be after quiet and careful thought, not heated irritation or despair.

6. Huh… Who’d a thunk it?
   Interestingly, I did get a sniff of a taint in his pieces appearing here now and then.
   “Et tu Brute” perhaps. A shame if so because I liked the old bugger, or rather I liked his prose.
   It’s also interesting that anything that touches on the israeli’s and that fucking hideous little tyrant peters becomes tainted too. “Oh! Wondrous Winnie. He took on the banks, he tells it like it is.” The banks now own us and nothing he says is true much less reliable. The israeli’s are like that fucking blowfly flying around the light bulb in the lounge when you’re trying to watch TV. Nobody would have harmed it if it had just stayed outside but now that it’s there, buzzing where it shits which is also where it eats which is food that doesn’t belong to it.

   • You’re so down to earth cb. Living in the country clears the sinuses so well.

   • I like blowflies, they just want to get out. Visceral hatred of house-flies for their attraction to our viscera. Ruined many a nap.

7. This column should be considered with two things in mind.

   Chris Trotter has been a champion of standing still and wringing ones hands as a means of magically moving forward for some years now.
   Terrible on strategic policy but excellent on providing hindsight informed summaries (i.e. writing highly readable history anecdotes). Shaw was a co-leader who never pushed and who never really filled Russel Norman’s shoes nor advanced the Greens beyond their electoral position of a decade ago, perfect for Chris stand-still Trotter’s support.

   Martyn Bradbury is a Chloe Swarbrick fanatic (not employing the abbreviation “fan” to emphasise its full import), I’m mildly surprised his outrage is as tempered as it is.

8. I’m confused. How is the departure of John Key in a green suit supposed to impact the Greens negatively, again?

   • Because John Key in a green suit cares more about the environment than the rest put together.

9. Trotter has not shifted at all, its the looney leftist lemmings who have thrown themselves over a cliff

   • If you went from supporting Labour and the Greens 6 years ago to supporting NZ First now when they’re pandering to anti-vaxxers and transphobes, you’ve changed…

     • Hope you’re well.

10. the thing is uk lab have expelled a fair few left wing jewish activists so it’s not about anti-semetism it’s about a purge by the starmerite neo lib right of uk labour

11. Chloe is a good woman but she will never reach any hights in NZ because we treat women as just another peice of meat in this country .

    • Bit sweeping with the mea culpa aren’t you Gordon? I don’t think it applies to you and don’t be too quick to ‘eave half a brick at all other men, we all have to try harder to get on. Old USA President’s saying, ‘We must hang together, or assuredly we will hang separately.’
      Very apt – centuries later.

    • Perhaps you’d like to apologize for being a man, Gordon.

12. I’d call Chris Trotter the Jimmy Dore of New Zealand, except even Jimmy Dore supports Palestine…

    • Who is Jimmy Dore? How is he relevant to NZ/AO?

    • By all means call him our Jimmy Dore.

13. Chloe going OK boomer to the group in society that started stopping pollution, turned the nation into tidy kiwis, demanded the French stop nuclear testing, made NZ Nuclear Free, stopped the native forest logging, started the Values/Green Party she does seem to put millenial identity ahead of Greeness. Brand extension and loss of loyal advocates is a bad strategy.

    • I agree, Joseph. Chloe should stop being so ‘holier than thou’, and look back to look forward as they say.

      • She has mastered the head tilts the smile and the frown but otherwise she is full of political speak.

        • When you tilt your head I assume you’ve mastered the art of the blow job being the type of guy you are.

        • You just described Luxon Bob

    • Really? The same generation or group carried on the damage. Great we have no nuclear ship visits. Shame the water table is full of nitrates, and the air quality in major centres kept deteriorating.

      • True Wheel while most of us have been pursuing some course or another which seemed good at the time, we haven’t succeeded in stopping NZ/AO downward slide. When people are feeling critical and holier than thou, their memory shrinks and so does their outside view – up the periscope and aim. Trouble is that the targets may be people who have done twice as much good for all society as everyone else around. They therefore have attracted twice as much criticism as everyone else – because we are so contentious and scathing about doers and toilers for a better society and planet.

        But when those who know all have formed opinions then that judgement is all. Chloe has done much, and tried to move things along in the right direction. What have you critics done to follow values for all off your own bat?

      • Yeah well, it just illustrates that it’s the class and ethical struggle that matters, it has f all to do with generational stereotypes.

14. Do you feel betrayed by Chris, Martyn?

15. It’s quite sad to see someone of Trotter’s intellect and historical nous to go down the rabbit hole.
    I’ve noticed a gradual change in Trotter since is BFF and someone I grew up with got death. Gerry (Gerard Hill), AND his dad Toby would be rolling in their graves if they saw what’s become of Trotter.
    Maybe Trotter was always this way, and so bloody codependent on Gerry to keep him in check. Who knows, but there’s a lot of it about.
    I’ve talked to a couple of other ex Onslow Collegers who grew up with Gerry, having regular little korero at Gerry and Toby’s crib in Cecil Road Wadestown. They seem to be in agreement.
    Pull yaself together Trots!
    Oh well. Shit happens, too bad. Next

    • Yes, I knew Gerard too, usually at the Grey Lynn TUC, aware of his maritime background-and later of Ponsonby fame, he turned up when the Polynesian Panthers plaque was installed a few years back on Ponsonby Rd. He unfailingly bollocked me for having belonged to a certain Marxist party.

      Mr Trotter has no credible excuse for embracing right opportunism unless he is unwell.

16. ‘Aboot’ great hero Chris Trotter. He was always quite human, much like you, Martyn, with your ‘culture wars’ stuff. It happens. He is still excellent about the central people’s cause. He could always rationalize for his audience.

    His Israel column sent off me and Guerilla Surgeon, ‘Litmus test of the Left’ is to support Israel! He left the field of reality.

    • Trotter’s support for the zionist entity tells you all you need to know about whether he has any actual continuing support for socialism and human progress.

      If you are a zionist, you openly hate human beings, so it’s quite obvious that you are not a socialist.

17. I gotta say, Martin, the standard of the comments I see in this page thus far are such a welcome change from the snarky trolley flavour that seemed to dominate the comments on this blog over the last couple of years. Have you had an influx of reasonable people lately, or have the blowhards just got bored and wandered off?

    • You’re welcome.

    • Thanks nick much appreciated.

    • Fair point. Nutwig Rightos/ numbskull know-nothings. I wonder how many of Kiwiblog’s 400 regular comments are not ‘it’s commonsense’ reactionaries.

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