It’s fine to pick holes in someone’s arguments and point out inconsistencies in their logic but it’s another thing to use your own cherry-picked bits of history to try to undermine a valid narrative.
Chris Trotter’s piece attacking Pere Huriwai-Seger seems to be an attempt to excuse the reality of Israel as a settler colonial state which is at the heart of the presentation.
Trotter claims it is “historical nonsense – and malicious nonsense at that” to suggest that New Zealand has “long supported the colonisation of Palestine”.
The context in which this is presented can be challenged but it is a simple fact that New Zealand has “long supported the colonisation of Palestine”.
We have always supported “Israel’s right to exist” despite Israel being a racist, apartheid state. (It is now recognised as such by every major human rights group in the world including Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch. The largest and most respected human rights group in Israel, B’Tselem describes Israel as “A regime of Jewish supremacy from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea: This is apartheid” And indeed it is!)
For 75 years New Zealand has given lip-service to the Palestinian struggle for freedom but has never challenged the colonisation of Palestine by European Zionist Jews under the British League of Nations mandate. It has never held Israel to account for its 75-year military occupation of Palestine.
Israel was established in the best traditions of colonisation. Encourage immigration of your superior European colonists, build up numbers till you are numerically, politically and militarily strong enough then attack the indigenous population and drive them off the land. Indigenous people the world over have experienced this process.
For Palestinians, being driven off their land was the “Nakba” (catastrophe in Arabic) whereby from late 1947 to early 1949 heavily armed Israeli militias attacked Palestinians towns, villages and rural communities across vast swathes of southern and central Palestine and drove them at gunpoint, with numerous massacres, either west into Gaza or east into the west bank of the Jordan River. That’s why we have 2.3 million Palestinians still effectively trapped in the world’s largest open-air prison. That’s why Palestinians are the largest refugee population in the world today. These Palestinians can look out through Israel’s security fence and see their ancestral land – but Israel says they will never be allowed to return, despite this being their right under international law.
All of this is told in meticulous historical detail by Israeli historian Ilan Pappe in his critically acclaimed book “The ethnic cleansing of Palestine”.
Pappe details how Israeli spies wrote reports about every Palestinian village – noting how many people, who the leaders were, names of anyone who had supported the Arab uprising against Jewish immigration in the late 1930s. This information was provided to the militias as they went about their ethnic cleansing across Palestine. The Israeli military called it “Plan Dalet”. It was deliberate, systematic, utterly brutal and cruel (You can watch the 2022 film “Tantura” about a massacre in the small Palestinian fishing village of Tantura during the Nakba)
(Incidentally but importantly this ethnic cleansing continues today as the Israeli settler movement, with backing from the Israeli military, carries our raids and pogroms against Palestinian villages and rural communities and drives people off their land. The western world is silent – perhaps it’s because the victims have the wrong eye colour)
Arab countries attacked Israel in May 1948 because of these atrocities which were reported across the Arab world but dirty deals were done, as they are today, and the Arab leadership betrayed Palestine.
From past pieces I know Chris Trotter is sceptical that “sins were committed” during the Nakba.
I wholeheartedly recommend this book to him. We all need to be prepared to have our understandings challenged.
I was also surprised Chris Trotter did not mention the Balfour declaration or the Sykes Picot agreement – both of which preceded Britain’s League of Nations mandate.
In these two pieces of classic European imperialism Britain assured European Zionist Jews it would facilitate the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine (no consultation with the indigenous Palestinians of course) and agreed with France how they would carve up the “old man of Europe” – the Ottoman Empire which was then on its last legs.
It was in Britain’s imperial interests to have a beachhead in the oil-rich Arab world and that beachhead would be Israel, a decision made well before the League of Nations mandate which Britain used to facilitate the expansion of its imperial power through the colonisation of Palestine.
I worry that Chris Trotter has spent too much time with the anti-Palestinian racists who dominate the so-called Free Speech Union. Free speech is absolutely critical but for many in the FSU free speech stops when someone speaks out for accountabilities for Israel. At that point false smears of anti-semitism are tossed around like confetti in efforts to stifle and suppress free speech about the Palestinian struggle for human rights.
It is entirely understandable that Arab Muslims and jews want to kill each other.
Why New Zealanders want to buy into this shit fight is baffling.
‘It is entirely understandable that Arab Muslims and jews want to kill each other’
What about the Arab Jews???
The Arab jews are also not free in Arab. While Muslims are ruling 52 countries, Jews have 1 which they can call home. Over generations they have suffered terribly for being a jew, hence if they hold Israel with pride then it us understandable.
Benn, rubbish the Iraqi jews were administrators of the ruling powers for centuries and were treated with the utmost respect, similarly in Egypt, Morocco, Yemen, they never suffered antisemitism until Zionism a political Ideology inserted itself into the region. Even Iran treated its jewish population with veneration.
Jews were treated well in Germany too, till Hitler happened. Hence, just reiterating my point above. Jews have 1 homeland.
Benny, It’s not their homeland its the Palestinians the descendants of the Canaanites, The Palestine mandate promised european jews someones elses lands and anti-Semitism existed in Europe well before Hitler rise so your argument is flawed on many levels.
It’s so complicated for the secular when the indigenous Jews were also promised the land isn’t it. But dear, dear it gets even more complicated for the religious when Allah declares in his book of instruction that the land belongs to the Jews, even if he subsequently declared them accursed.
You think we should look the other way when Israel is Committing Genocide in the Israeli Concentration Camp that is Gaza. . . I disagree. My Moral Compass won’t let me.
Fine, just what you can achieve by taking sides is purely academic. It merely continues the status quo
View the Hamas attack and then tell me these people are normal.
Been there have you Neil?
A person has to have been there?? I suppose you were at the Twin Towers, Mogadishu, and Auschwitz as well, Bob the simple?
Not sure how we got to the other places In Vino but I excuse your confusion.
Try reading the first sentence.
“Been there have you Neil?” is a truly silly question.
It is, nevertheless, a fact, John, that very few colonised people had foreign armies leap to their defence, as the Egyptians, Jordanians and Syrians leapt to the defence of the Palestinians (or, more accurately, to the destruction of the Jews) in 1948. Nor were there many indigenous peoples who could count on the support of a superpower which, having armed the colonised’s neighbours to the teeth, sent them pouring across the borders to drive the colonisers into the sea.
Had the Maori such stalwart backers between 1840-1860, then I strongly suspect they would have no need of co-governance today!
Clearly Chris+Trotter apparently you’ve never read from Israeli Historians or Palestinian academic like Illan Pappe, Avi Shlaim, Rashid Khalidi, or even zionist historian Benny Morris who undoubtedly would undermine your myopic version of the founding of apartheid Israel. These armies you’ve mentioned that came to the aid of the indigenous Palestinians were not well armed and trained military in comparison to the Zionist military.
They also didn’t possess the the types of logistic that the Zionist had like Ben Gurion the first PM of the state of Israel fought along the british during WW1 and was instrumental in arming the Kibbutz with the help of a racist british commander Orde Wingate who was responsible for training Jewish terrorist groups like the Palmach, Stern Gang, Haganah the forerunner of the IDF.
Clearly Chris has tunnel vision and lacks historic literacy when discussing apartheid Israel! I suggest read Illan Pappe books that served in the IDF and was a zionist but became a historian and found the truth. He not only speaks Hebrew but also speaks Arabic so understands both sides.
Free Palestine
You have obviously chosen not to view the coverage of the attack by Hamas on Israeli civilians.
Bob the Last, seem you just started the Israeli/Palestine conflict on the 6 Oct 2023 typical far-right tactics
Bob likes to keep things ultra simple so that he can understand..
Keeping things simple is an art.
I’d back Chris’s historical knowledge over John’s any day. John is too reliant on the megaphone approach – his way or the highway! At least you can debate with Chris.
Just a shame that Benny Morris wrote that rather caustic critique of Ilan Pappe titled “The Liar As Hero” wasn’t it Stephen.
Did you read it?
Interesting line of History you are pushing. Maybe you could do some real research. Don’t let ignorance be your guide. Go here – https://lettersforpalestine.weebly.com/key-authors–books.html Try Benny Morris, a Jewish Historian, who documented the Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine. Note that more than 200,000 Palestinians had been driven from their homes and Lands Before the surrounding countries stepped in. What could you lose by research? Your “Blinkers”?
The responses seem to be “liar” or “we knew that 3 days ago.” We are all truly fucked.
Because Minto hates Jews and Israel….if there were peace in the ME, he would find a new cause to shout about!
He is not known as ‘the screaming skull’ for no reason.
Criticise, what the government of Israel is doing and you instantly hate all Jewish people? You are exactly the cancel culture type that supposedly resides only on the left.
Perhaps that is because he is a human rights advocate and has been involved in so many issues over the years. Do tell me what issues you have pushed over the line Im Right! Every signed a petition, been on a picket, been on a protest?
Bwa, ha ha, human rights advocate? When has Minto ever called out the ongoing slaughter of Christians in Nigeria? Or Christian persecution in any number of ME and African countries? Or Hazari persecution in Afghanistan? Or Baha’i persecution in Iran? Or the illegal Turkish occupation of northern Cyprus? Or even, and this might really shock you, the right of Gazan women to live a life free from the threat from Hamas men to force Sharia rule on them?
Johm Minto has a long and proud record of being an anti-rascist ,,, he is literally the last person you’ll find expressing hatred of Jews because they are Jews ,,,
Im right did not, and will not be able to produce one statement of J Minto expressing hatred/racism towards Jews ,,,, showing Im right is nothing more than a sleazy dishonest liar.
If being a sleazy bull-shitter was a crime ,,,, Im right would be in jail.
Heehee, touch a nerve did I BA,
Need a safe space you snowflake?
Still shedding tears at Labours defeat I see and lashing out, awww your tears will be ongoing for next 9 years.
Thanks for confirming you’re a shameless liar Im right …..
… and also showing you’re really thick to think I’m upset at Labour getting what they deserve.
….But I think normal people know that the thing which would make Im right go boo-hoo, is if Israel stopped murdering innocent Palestinian children,women, old people and civilians ,,,, eh Im right (no question mark required).
Every Hospital Israel Has Bombed in the Last Decade https://youtu.be/JrUdEERhQks
Israel Loves Murdering Children https://youtu.be/zz6lBguvmAc
Im right and crocodile tears Bob the first would go boo hoo hoo if Israel stopped their present war crimes.
Did Nazi germany have a right to kill civilians when they carried out ‘reprisals’ for the military actions of resistance fighters??.
There is no difference in what Israel is doing,,,, except perhaps the scale of their reprisals ( which they call defending themselves) is far larger than what the nazi germans did to villagers ( who were no doubt sympathetic to the resistance fighters).
Thanks for the acknowledgement BA didn’t realise you have joined my ever expanding fan club.
John Minto loves Jews like the rest of the intelligent but hates Israel likes the rest of the intelligent. If Israel can’t compromise, make a settlement, then ‘I’ at least will certainly be for the people who made their views well known from 1920 on.
With yet another example of strangled hyperbole and obscure references masquerading as informed comment, Chris Trotter has come a long way from leading the singing of “The Red Flag” at the launch of Jim Anderton’s New Labour Party. That he is now intoning “Land of hope and Glory” and “Jerusalem” is not only extraordinary but even more so since his chorus includes the ever-dreadful Gaby.
Far out. Best cartoon ever. Sez it all in a nutshell.
Too bad you can’t do one of Putin playing naive Western Liberals like a violin.
A real genocide is going on in Gaza. Meanwhile high powered team of highly paid lawyers hired by the Russian Federation, spent over 8 hours arguing before the UN Court of Justice that their client, the Russian Federation, shouldn’t have to produce any evidence to back up Russian Federation claims that Ukraine had been committing genocide against ethnic Russians or Russian speakers.
Ukraine takes itself to court
https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2023/10/08/guest-blog-patrick-odea-ukraine-takes-itself-to-court/
The allegation made by the Russian Federation that Ukraine had been committing genocide in the Dombas, was the excuse given for invading Ukraine. The real reason that Russia invaded Ukraine is that the Russian Federation is a murderous imperialist state. As nasty and vicious as the US the UK or France.
The same tactics used by the Zionists against Gaza City, the Russian Federation used against the Ukrainian city of Mariupol. The same accusations of being the new Nazis leveled at Hamas in the UN by Israel’s Foreign Minister Eli Cohen, echo the same accusations made against Ukraine by the Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov.
The same lies, the same mass murder,the same brutality, made all the easier for the Zionists in Gaza by the Western apologists for the very same atrocities tactics in Ukraine.
Yes of course, there are a minority of extremists in Gaza, just as there are in Ukraine. But this no excuse for the atrocities committed by the Zionists and the Russian imperialists. And as the UN Secretary General remarked of Gaza the existence and activities of these extremists doesn’t exist in a vacuum. But follows a long history of Zionist colonial repression. Just as the existence of neo-nazis in Ukraine doesn’t exist in a vacuum. But follows a long history of Russian colonialism and repression.
https://www.currentaffairs.org/2023/07/if-you-support-ukrainian-resistance-to-occupation-you-must-also-support-palestinian-resistance-to-occupation?
“….If the seizure and occupation of territory is wrong when Russia does it, it is wrong when Israel does it. Why does the U.S. support the resistance in one case and the occupiers in the other?”
Nathan J. Robinson
it always amuses me when rightards sing jerusalem not knowing it was written by a christian socialist and the jerusalem referred to was a welfare state…indeed in 1945 it wasn’t uncommon to talk about the welfare state as ‘the new jerusalem’ still you can’t expect gammons to hear that with their heads thrust firmly up their arses
Activist Thunberg protests against Ukraine invasion outside Russian embassy in Stockholm
Reuters
February 26, 2022 5:57 AM GMT
‘Whoever identifies with Greta in any way in the future, in my view, is a terror supporter.’ Arye Sharuz Shalicar, spokesman for the Israeli army
https://www.politico.eu/article/greta-thunberg-calls-global-pro-palestinian-strike-gaza-genocide-israel-slam/
…..Thunberg said “the world needs to speak up and call for an immediate ceasefire, justice and freedom for Palestinians and all civilians affected,” as the Israel-Hamas war escalates and threatens to become a regional conflict.
Thunberg also shared on her Instagram account a post by a German-based pro-Palestinian account which says a “genocide” is happening in Gaza.
What you fail to understand Malcolm, is that the colonisation of the climate, and the colonisation of Palestine, and the colonisation of Ukraine, all come from the same place, a global economic system where expansion and takeover is not a choice but an economic imperative.
And please Malcolm don’t you dare claim, that the Russian Federation is not a kleptocratic expansionist state ruled in the interest of a corrupt billionaire oligarch class, as predatory and murderous as any other capitalist imperialist state. When you know in your gut that it is.
So stop making excuses for them.
Malcolm you are on the wrong side of history over Ukraine. Your support for Russian imperialism is damaging the cause of the Palestinian people. By spitting on the resistance of the Ukrainian people to Russian imperialist aggression, you are spitting on all indigenous people fighting for self determination and freedom from colonialist and imperialist oppression.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgmKygmkqSA
We all mature as we grow older and learn more,albeit there are exceptions of course.
Those who have been indoctrinated to a belief without questioning it are to be pitied
John – Those scenes within Aotea Square last weekend of Anti Israel protests – is a concern…why do we in NZ need to import that old world hate?
Neihana, Apartheid Israel brought this hatred upon itself with its genocidal policies towards the Indigenous Palestinians no thanks in part to the west. Hamas was created thanks to the Israelis in the 1980s, however before that apartheid Israel was still murdering Palestinians. The pro palestinian march is a just course! Imagine if it was Jews that were systematically bombed in Gaza, or systematically raided and had their homes taken off them because of who they are and humiliated daily for ova half a century than we wouldn’t have a problem with what that called!!
Time to stop defending the indefensible Neihana and come back on the side of humanity.
Tipene – That was not a pro Palestinian march, it was an anti Israel mob…and, many of that mob – wished Hamas well, and Israel to be wiped out…shameful, no place for this in NZ…
Imagine if it was Jews that were
systematically bombed in Gaza, or systematically raidedmurdered in cold blood in their thousands, as well as being burned alive….Stephen would stifle a yawn and sure as hell wouldn’t start any protest that might upset his friends in Hamas.
And again with the “genocide” that Pat Odea also pushes. You people have deminished the word in your hysterical need to use the most extreme words and terms in your propaganda. Given that Gaza’s population has grown from 120,000 decades ago to 2.5 million now it’s actually the opposite of genocide.
Time to quit the “pro-Palestine” posture, Stephen and face up to your inner demons. You need to stop being a rationalising Westerner, blabbing about occupation and apartheid and instead embrace what the Gazan’s clearly believe and celebrate. Killing Jews.
Theasus, 75 years of the same shit daily is an incremental genocide because the apartheid state can’t just murder millions of Palestinian so murders methodically incrementally
…is an incremental genocide…
Heh. Pressed into a corner Stephie responds by trying to re-define a term. Fair enough since you probably believe in things like “social” justice and such.
Anyhoo, in a genocide the numbers of the population being genocided are vastly reduced – see Tutsis, Armenians and of course the Jews.
When a population increases, and increases substantially, it’s not a genocide, let alone an “incremental” one.
Just pick another word. Genocide I’m sure sounds great to to Minto-Stephen-O’Dea clubhouse but it fails in gaslighting and even makes you look unhinged to normies, who I presume you want to try and convince – or is Lefty virtue preening the objective here?
A pro-genocide comment if there ever was one.
It is not the first this commenter has complained that despite the Zionist’s best efforts to exterminate them, there has been a demographic increase in the Palestinian population.
“When a population increases, and increases substantially, it’s not a genocide….”
In another time and place, the same racist argument would be used against Jewish people. Because the Jewish population has increased since 1945 doesn’t mean the Holocaust never happened.
There is quite a few of them I doubt you are correct about this.
Don’t forget the ANC was a terrorist organisation, they became the government!
“…again with the “genocide” that Pat Odea also pushes” Theasus
On the same evidence Theasus would deny the Holocaust if it were going on today.
Compare the German Nazi order to evacuate the Warsaw Ghetto in 1942 with the Israeli Zionist order to evacuate North Gaza and Gaza city, and if you don’t you are an accomplice of a terrorist organisation, presumably marked for death.
https://www.yadvashem.org/docs/announcement-of-jews-evacuation-from-warsaw-ghetto.html
Just as the German Nazis promised the Jewish people of the Warsaw Ghetto that they would be safe in the East.
The Israeli Zionists have promised the Palestinian people of North Gaza that they would be safe in the South.
Both promises are a proven lie.
One difference the German Nazis said those sick and infirm and in hospital didn’t have to evacuate. It was a lie of course. The Israeli Zionists are little more honest, the Zionists say the hospitals have to be evacuated.
There is a genocide going on right in front of us.
International law says that no crime or atrocity justifies genocide.
Well that’s the problem with your hysterical use of the word genocide over the years. Your historical comparison would be more solid if it was not for the fact you and yours have been claiming for twenty years that it’s a genocide. At best then you can just claim that this another stage in it, even as the numbers of the past refute your theory.
Since you’re into comparisons of historic turning points you might want to look at what your Palestinian heroes did on October 7, 2023 to what happened on November 9-10, 1938 in Germany, Kristallnacht. Now that was a far more distinct and decisive marker to a genocide than your example.
As is this, except that only a hundred or so Jews died on Kristallnacht: Gaza is already an order of magnitude up on that start. Just imagine what they’ll do when the dream of you and Minto is achieved, with them scattered all through the Jewish population of what used to be Israel.
TBF to you, I’m sure you’ll be a compassionate protestor against that as well.
Protesting is an occupation for many people in New Zealand,their vanity has them convinced they know best.
Chris Trotter latest rant about Pere who I’ve never heard of until I read his blog yesterday seem to suggest that he’s doesn’t like a Maori POV about the genocidal behavior of apartheid Israel. CT quoted “Pere’s pace is brisk, and just seconds later he is informing his viewers that New Zealand has “long supported the colonisation of Palestine”. This is historical nonsense – and malicious nonsense at that”
CT has written his POV about getting rid of the Treaty of Waitangi a document that responsible for his whanau very existence in this country which he can now rightfully call his own. He’s regularly been writing anti-maori rhetoric on a far-right site the NZPCR which is funded by anti-Maori rich listers and founded by Ex-ACT MP Muriel Newman.
IMO he’s an ACT supporter disguise as a lefty.
Your view is wayward Stephen. Trotter voted NZF this year, and I understand that’s the first time he hasn’t voted Labour.
But is he (CT) really a lefty nah!
It’s hard to criticise the Israeli military without being labelled antisemitic .My wifes Grand father who was Jewish was betrayed to the Gestapo and sent to Auschwitz death camp.My late mother in law had to walk with a limp all her life because she had to do slave labour as she was half Jewish .My wife and I are appalled at at the indiscriminate bombing of civilian targets in Gaza .My wife works with traumatized refugee children in Munich and has seen what conflict dose to children .I am a tour guide in Munich NZ citizen and take people too where the 1938 peace agreement was signed by Hitler Mussolini the British and French Prime ministers to divide Czechoslovakia with out inviting Czechoslovakia to the conference which had such a bad impact on my late mother in law’s family who lived in Prague .I draw parallels to 1948 when the British decided to.devide Palestine and create Israel with out considering the negative impact on Palestinians that would lead to conflict dehumanisation from then to .the present.Of course that dose not excuse what Hamas did on October 8 to Israeli civilians including children .But its dose not justify bombing innocent civilians in Gaza .I have.been writing to the NZ Primeminister elect and outgoing Primeminister and smaller parties to call for a cease fire .Peter Marra NZ citizen Master of International Development Munich Germany
Hi Peter,
I would love to talk to you about your knowledge of the Czech experience in 1945.
My mother was involved in this at age 11.
Please can you contact me andy at scrase dot com.
Thank you
Awesome bro
A cease fire will simply allow Hamas time and space to repair and replenish so they can do the same thing again.
For example, do you really think that if Israel allowed Gaza to expand and take over part or all of Southern Israel, that they wouldn’t do the same thing again in time? I guess you do think that.
Unlike Stephen you don’t sound like a simple Jew-hater who would be quite happy to a repeat of October 7, but your naivety about the Jew hatred of the Gazan’s is astonishing. This has now gone far beyond anything rational like borders or even past massacres.
This is, as before in history, simply about extermination of the Jews.
Theasus, apparently zionist claimed that creating a Jewish state would keep Jews safe and stop anti-Semitism??????? I guess they lied again and the only people that had exterminated millions of jews were europeans from europe.
Peter I hope that as a tour guide your knowledge of European history exceeds your knowledge of the Middle East. Your “parallels” are more than a little askew. You might note the the United Nations voted to partition the region then known as Palestine in 1947 and both Palestinians Jews and Palestinian Arabs stood to gain statehood as a result. The Jews accepted their portion, voted to call their land Israel and have developed a prosperous and progressive society, one which takes in many of the persecuted Christian, women, gay and trans people from Gaza and the West Bank. The Arab Palestinians however, rejected their partitioned share, joined with surrounding Arab countries to annihilate the fledgling Israel and have conducted war, intifada and terror attacks on Israel ever since. Moreover, despite being the recipient of billions of dollars from western charitable aid, criminal activity and Iran’s pay for slay policy, under the treacherous al-Husseini, Arafat, Hamas and the useful idiot Abbas they have whinged and whined non-stop to the international community.
Maybe you need also write to the NZ Prime Minister elect and outgoing Prime Minister and smaller parties and urge them to condemn the Hamas tactic of using their population as human shields.
Ann E. (Master of History. NZ citizen currently residing in Frankfurt.)
Great last para –
Free speech is absolutely critical but for many in the FSU free speech stops when someone speaks out for accountabilities for Israel. At that point false smears of anti-semitism are tossed around like confetti in efforts to stifle and suppress free speech about the Palestinian struggle for human rights.
as we all know if you fly a Palestinian flag you support Hamas according to David Cumin.
I’ve never really understood why a portion of Germany wasn’t carved off for European Jews to live in, after all the Brits. did look at Uganda and Argentina and other places for the Jews to live in. But given that the Germans caused the appalling atrocities – the holocaust – shouldn’t they have to pay and not the Palestinians!
Michal, Germany have paid full monetary reparation to the Satie of Israel even when this atrocity happened before the existence of the apartheid state. Germany is one of apartheid Israel biggest supporters, and enablers which is one of the reasons this apartheid state can do what it wants when it wants.
Free palestine.
I know all that Stephen. But really full monetary reparation for killing 6 million jews>
I know about their ban on marches of support for Palestinians.
Germany suffers from enormous guilt.
Check your history. The land that is Israel was Jewish before the Romans then Ottoman Empire overran it .This is why it was handed BACK to the Jews after WW2. The Palestinians are the colonisers.
https://jcpa.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/TimeLine.pdf
Check your history. The land that is Israel was Jewish before the Romans then Ottoman Empire overran it .This is why it was handed BACK to the Jews after WW2. The Palestinians are the colonisers.
https://jcpa.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/TimeLine.pdf
Yawn, the Hasbara BS link is that the best you have???
It does not matter which link …. Israel IS the original homeland of the Jews and that is why they are there today.
I thought they immigrated from Egypt? Its says in the bible? And god an imaginary being that lives in the clouds isn’t a real estate agent so shouldn’t be promising someone else’s lands who belong to the Canaanites the ancestors of the palestinians.
Tankie is Trotter is a bit of a bigot at times. He forgets he’s a settler too. He needs to dial his anger and bigotry down a bit and stick to his other campaign about disinformation.
buhahahaha keep the jokes coming lol
Bit late reading this, but totally agree.
Chris Trotter has lost all credibility in trying to defend the indefensible – particularly because his ‘arguments’ have no basis in fact. Perhaps the old adage needs extending:
“Anyone who is not a socialist at age 20 has no heart. Anyone who is still a socialist at age 40 has no head.”
“Anyone who is not fighting fascism at any age has no heart, head OR soul.”
Given what’s happened to the old Jewish populations in the rest of the Arab world – expelled or attacked until they left – John Minto should have no illusions as to what will happen to the Jews of Israel if they lost their nation, especially in the wake of what the people of Gaza did this time.
When the Hebron massacre of Jews happened in 1929 there was no Israel and no occupation, just the usual Arab world of different ethnic groups living side-by-side. Yet even in that world the Jews were no safer than they were in Europe.
It’s all just rationalisation of what we don’t want to accept; a lot of people, including Arabs and Europeans, just want to kill Jews, and the Jews of Israel are well aware of that history and figure they have to hang on in their nation no matter what.
Now maybe it’s not the best response. After all, they’re up against a demography of 400 million Arabs and 80 million Iranians. They basically have to win every war forever.
But in their minds it’s better than being slaughtered like sheep, a scenario that’s just been reinforced in the most dramatic way. And frankly, given his attitudes towards what’s happening to the White colonisers of his former ire, South Africa, I’m not willing to grant John Minto the good faith of thinking he would opposed to that.
Probably not to the rest of us “White Colonisers” here in NZ either.
The Hebron riots were a combination of zionist meddling and British suppression of the Palestinians who they had resented because they were arabs. These riots didn’t just happen because the locals suddenly had a hatred for Jews. This historical revisionism to suit your narrative is BS that hasbara use to give the impression that palestinians are just terrorist.
historical revisionism?
The descriptions of the acts performed against unarmed civilian Jews is a close match to what happened on October 7. BTW, the British detested the Jews as well, not as badly as you do of course, but still little better than their attitudes towards the Arabs. In fact the British Foreign Office was notorious for sucking up to the Arabs and stiffing the Jews. Nothing has really changed.
I have to admit that I’m glad to see Lefties like you outing yourself. Because your fanatical, no-holds-barred language and attitudes match what can be seen on The Daily Stormer and other such sites, it’s causing Leftie Jews (and other Lefties) to abandon the Left. Of course he’s still clinging to hope:
Of course, the far right remains a threat…. Individual rightists, like the shooter at the Tree of Life synagogue in Pittsburgh, represent a distinct lethal threat.
Yeah, yeah. Not as much of a threat as thousands of Gazan ‘Stephen’s’ though: multiple Tree of Life synagogues.
And while your average Lefty jew might not like living next door to some gun-toting redneck the odds of an individual Rightie nutter are thousands of times better than living next door to a Hamas supporter – and the Redneck might even teach you how to shoot.
There’s also the added bonus that all your endless screeching about our being Fascists and Nazis is now becoming useless propaganda as normies watch your friends… act like Nazis, and with you fully supporting or enabling it. A bit discombobulating for them but they’re getting there.
BTW, have you looked at your cap recently?
Theasus, “BTW, have you looked at your cap recently?” Buhahahaha keep the jokes coming lol?? Otto Skorzeny a favorite Nazi of the apartheid state FFS they even decorated this decorated NAZI.
And Haj Amin el-Husseini, Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, is a hero to Hama because of his Arabic language tirades to “kill the Jews” that were broadcast to the Middle East on the Third Reich’s shortwave radio transmitters.
Muhahahaha. This may come as a surprise to you (I’m sure many things do) but the cognitive dissonance you’re suffering arises from the simple fact that after decades of being able to confidently portray your Palestinian hero’s as victims and claiming that the Jews are now Nazis you’ve suddenly landed in a world where you’re hero’s have acted exactly like Nazis and against the very victim group you thought you’d defeated in propaganda.
Now you not only can’t acknowledge what monsters you’re Palestinian heros now are – revealed to all the world by their very own boastful Go-Pro videos and photos – but you’re desperately trying to pretend it hasn’t happened by the braindead, gaslighting technique of …. not talking about it, while banging away with all your old tropes that worked before.
But they’re not working now after October 7. If you actually want to make any headway in this debate you need to humble yourself, admit your guys have acted like Nazis, and suggest ways they could be better.
More honourable fighting – say against the IDF with no human shields, telling the Gazan civilians to leave while they stay and fight. That might make a difference in the propaganda war.
But they won’t do that, anymore than you’ll change the argumentative tactics that have served you so well on this subject for 30-40 years.
Theasus, pushing the Satanyahu meme about Haj Amin el-Husseini, as a nazi is typical hasbara BS, Apartheid Israel has used many Palestinian human shields even before it became an apartheid state.
Apartheid Israel has literally used actual NAZIS that were part of the SS but you want to lie depicting Hamas attacks 6 OCT as Nazism!! These attacks were long coming and the west needs to be held responsible behind the apartheid state.
Free Palestine.
I guess it hard for coloniser to admit others are coloniser to.
Yes, CT is a Māori basher I have read some of his stuff and he speaks like a true coloniser let’s see if our newly elected PM the 8-million-dollar man (how much they paid to help him get elected) has any balls to stand up to this sort of rhetoric.
Agree ..
Wouldn’t surprise me if that tosser runs as an ACT candidate next election.
https://lawliberty.org/progressives-ignorance-on-israel/
Good article on the depravity of the left’s support for Hamas. Note the important sentence: “Jews are the only people who meet the UN definition of indigeneity.” Links to the UN declaration so you can check it out yourself. Jews didn’t colonise Palestine. They re-indigenised it. Arabs (from Arabia) are the colonisers, arriving thousands of years after the Jews, destroying and enslaving Greco-Christian and Judaeo communities across the Levant, Anatolia and North Africa. They never, ever had their own state in the land. The Jewish ‘colonisation’ slur is just another cheap attempt to delegitimise Israel.
gaby, Yawn
Right back at you.
You had the “Kingdom of Israel” that lasted barely 80 years, and if Israel is now a state please define its legal borders. The truth is Israel has never defined its borders because it hasn’t finished its land grab yet.
Israel the most “moral” army in the world, Well Palestinians thank Israel for the roof knocks before bombing defenseless People.
The genocide will not be televised
The 300 thousand strong Israeli military force massed on the border will not be entering Gaza, at least not until the aerial and artillery destruction of Gaza City and the extermination and expulsion of all the inhabitants of North Gaza is completed.
What to look for:
The US advising their ally Israel not to invade Gaza, (just yet). And Israel complying.
This move will be spun by the US and Israel as a humanitarian measure.
In fact it will be to allow the artillery and aerial bombardment of Gaza to reach a new crescendo of barbarity and mass murder.
This genocide will be not be broadcast by the media. If it is reported at all, the true enormity will be glossed over. And our media hacks will close ranks to sing the praises of IDF as the most humane army in history.
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2023/10/23/world/politics/us-israel-delay-gaza-invasion/
……the advice to Israelis to hold off on the land war was being conveyed through Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin because the Pentagon is helping advise Israel on military actions, including the ground invasion…..
…..A diplomat from the Israeli Embassy in Washington denied that the U.S. government was advising Israelis to delay the ground invasion and said: “We have a close dialogue and consultations with the U.S. administration. The U.S. is not pressing Israel in regards to the ground operation.”
“The 300 thousand strong Israeli military force massed on the border will not be entering Gaza, at least not until the aerial and artillery destruction of Gaza City and the extermination and expulsion of all the inhabitants of North Gaza is completed.”
Just as I grimly predicted. The IDF has confirmed that they will not be entering Gaza until they have killed everyone they can with air strikes and artillery.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/middle-east/300996222/why-israels-ground-invasion-hasnt-happened–yet?cx_testId=3&cx_testVariant=cx_1&cx_artPos=2#cxrecs_s
There is a genocide going on and we just sit and watch.
In the 1940’s the Holocaust was conducted in secret, it wasn’t until after the liberation that the full horror was revealed to the world.
Today due to the internet and social media, we have a ringside seat.
Not just our leaders. None of us can say, ‘we didn’t know’.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/24/israel-gaza-world-leaders-un-genocide-palestinians
I’m bemused at the continual use of the word Colonisation when referring to Israel. Yes the State of Israel was formally founded and yes some of those who lived in the Palestinian territory along with most the surrounding muslim countries didn’t agree with it. Jews and Christians have always lived in the area. The kingdom of Israel and the Kingdom of Judea were there thousands of years before this relatively modern skirmish between Israelites and Palestinians. The whole area has been invaded by various entities for Millenia. To say Palestinians are indigenous to the area and jews aren’t is complete bollocks. Like John many will read and believe what they want. Facts in these writings are only as truthful as the way such facts are presented. Stephen quotes Pappe and Morris in the same sentence When it is known that Morris disputes the way Pappe presents many of the so called facts in his writings. There are two sides to every story but Historians present what suits their narrative just like the news media. IMO there is just as much misinformation in books as on social media. Everyone has the right to believe what they like but when they quote they have searched for what suits their narrative. John talks of Chris T cherry picking what suits his narrative and IMO John Minto is no different. As for this conflict There is always someone willing to fire a shot and so it’s hard to see and end to it. Israel needs to stop bombing Gaza and the Palestinians need to get Hamas out of their midst because they are being used as human shields by a group who are not bothered how many fellow Muslims die there.
new view, Jews aren’t a race they’re an ethno-religious group made up from a variety of races. Their are arab jews, african Jews, chinese Jews, european Jews but somehow they’re of the same race????? Benny Morris is a zionist so will tow the hasbara BS. I’ve read all the BS from hasbara trolls and you are no different however less educated than the trolls that I’ve come across.
Miko Peled, a Jewish man born in Israel tells the truth about the brutal murderous ethnic cleansing behind ‘the birth’ of Israel https://youtu.be/Pyz3NEGf5PE?t=633
We are witnessing the Zionists intended end game to their aim of cleansing Palestinians from what were their lands ,,,,
Gaza is a war-sore ghetto ,,, that Israel/zionistsl have a final soloution for ,,,, “finish them” ,,, “flatten the place” ,,,, https://www.bitchute.com/video/Sgr346nxGl46/
Try viewing some of the footage covering the Hamas attack on civilians and tell me these people are human.
So your justification for dehumanizing all Palestinians is that some fubar people within their population did something truly vial.
OK so if we apply your logic, we should bomb the national party and all the homes and offices associated with and by members of the national party – because they are the party most closely associated with the gunman at the center of the Christchurch Massacre.
Slippery slope Bob the first
That’s silly Ignatius.
But is anyone human in war?
Try viewing what Israel is doing to civilians and children ,,,, and tell me the Israel bombers and missile firers are human Bob ,,,,
or that the Palestinian children are inhumane ,,,,, crocodile tears Bob https://www.bitchute.com/video/Sgr346nxGl46/
Are reprisals ‘defending yourself ????
Who used them in WWII,,,, to ‘defend themselves’ against attacks ????
Astounding how many experts on Israel/Palestine reside in New Zealand.
Bob the last, Why are you jealous? And I’ve visited Hebron in 2008 just before ‘Operation castled’ and you don’t need to visit the region to understand the problems there its very well reported or haven’t you notice???
Golly stephen that’s stupid,which version of the issues are you reading?
I remain puzzled as to why Chris Trotter writes for this blog site. He has been anti Maori for years and years and years and year.
If you want an echo chamber, maybe you should go to The Standard or somewhere similar. We’re supposed to celebrate diversity, right?
And can you please identify which sentences of Trotter’s article are “anti-Maaori”. If opposing or criticizing the views or actions of individual Maaori makes Trotter “anti-Maaori”, then there are quite a few anti-Pakeha people on this site.
He doesn’t!
Chris Trotter writes at his Blog ‘Bowalley Road’
Martyn lifts a particular piece and reprints it here…
I’m sick of educating you Michal!
BTW, I know that Malcolm Evans is still angry about being fired for his anti-Israeli cartoon years ago, but does he really think that the reporters of One News, Newshub, Stuff, The Spinoff, The Listener and all the rest of the NZ MSM can be characterised as KKK members?
Do you still talk to any of these people? Or has time moved on and they’re not even aware of your insult?
Yawn
I present for discussion, two extreme hypotheticals.
First, since Hamas love being martyrs so much, why not just send all the Gaza civilians into South Gaza and then publicly challenge the IDF to come into North Gaza for a fight to the death. Hamas would likely lose but they’d inflict severe casualties on the IDF and become such a symbol of courage and sacrifice to the Arab world that Israel would be destroyed more quickly and Palestine created “from the River to the Sea” as they say.
Second, since the likes of John Minto, Stephen, Pat O’Dea and company already say that Israel is committing genocide against the “Palestinians”, and have been for years now, why should the Israelis not carpet bomb Gaza – and I mean real carpet bombing, not what some clowns call a JDAM strike but real Tokyo/Dresden firebombing patterns – and kill as many of the 2.5 million who live there as possible? After all, what are the Western “Genocide” accusers going to say and think about the Israelis that’s worse than what they think and say now.
Yawn, Now you’re getting silly time for you meds
@ John Minto. I admire your patience as you cast your pearls before swine.
Right, that’s it. Time to do the following:
– Move Poland 100km East again to restore the nation that existed before Stalin shifted. The Germans will be happy to get their land back. The Russians not happy at losing theirs.
– Istanbul to be returned to Christian control and once again be given the glorious name of Constantinople, which it had for a thousand years. Same goes for the Hagia Sophia, which will return to being a Christian church. Sure, they’ll be millions of pissed off Turks but they’re just going to have to suck up historical justice.
– Obviously we need to remove all the Pakeha from New Zealand too but at least in my case I’m willing to leave as long as the UN forces Britain to return to me the little crofter plots my ancestors were evicted from centuries ago.
I’m sure there’s more such actions to be taken to restore our perfect global past.
” Because Minto hates Jews and Israel….if there were peace in the ME, he would find a new cause to shout about!
He is not known as ‘the screaming skull’ for no reason.
He has never said he hates Jews that was a low blow , he despises the successive Israeli governments , Western sympathisers who look the other way when the Palestinian people are incarcerated illegally in their own land and butchered and the Israeli military who regularly commit war crimes against a repressed race of people whose land they confiscate and steal for the state of Israel.
Without ” screaming skulls ” as you put it like John Minto , John Pilger and Nicky Hagar and many others we would be immersed in greater ignorance and only have the medias one sided propaganda regarding the destruction of a proud race of people who have been targeted for elimination by Western interests and presented with their lies and and fabrication of what is really happening in the Palestinian Territories.
Good work Mr Minto.
Thanks John Minto. So much work and research has gone into this topic both before and since 1948 or ’49 when I asked my father to explain why all those people were huddled in makeshift shelters on the Gaza strip. He was unable to explain fully. ” Well,” he began, “There’s the Irgun and, and then there’s the Stern Gang.” It was as if, so soon after the war he was unable to process the information.
Even now, in the West, multitudes of citizens have no real grasp of history and now under the blitzkrieg of propaganda and general online cacophony, sadly, most never will.
In 1939 Longmans published a book by the journalist J.M.N. Jeffries called ‘Palestine the Reality: the Inside Story of the Balfour Declaration’. Most of the edition of this well researched and referenced work was lost when Longmans warehouse was destroyed in the first blitz and it was not again published until 2017 when Theresa May and other heirs to Britain’s now tattered imperial designs were celebrating the 100th anniversary of the Balfour’s Declaration. Well worth owning and reading.
Jeffries regretted he had neither the time nor money to include the U.S. side of the story but fortunately this was done by another journalist, Alison Weir. Titled ‘Against Our Better Judgement’, her account is short and simple, making for easy reading but the reference section in very detailed and much longer. Journalists and the public today don’t like to be reminded that all through last century there were journalists and foreign correspondents writing for a press that everywhere was much more independent and far freer than anything available today. Weir quotes Dean Acheson, US statesman saying in 1947, ‘Creating Israel on land already inhabited by Palestinians would “imperil” both American and all Western interests in the region.’ Acheson was by no means the only voice of warning.
Images of skulls accompany this article by US journalist Chris Hedges:
https://consortiumnews.com/2023/10/25/chris-hedges-let-them-eat-cement/
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/israel-most-legitimate-state Israel is the most legitimate state on the planet, with an unmatched pedigree. None of Israel’s detractors have any issue with any of the other 100+ states created after WW2, especially Arab states like Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan. Wonder why that is?
https://medium.com/progressme-magazine/how-arab-colonialism-conquered-the-middle-east-73a247c7465d. The only colonisation you’ll find in Palestine…Arab.
“Since Israel is a democratic state surrounded by essentially undemocratic states which have sworn her destruction, those interested in democracy everywhere must support Israel’s existence.”
– Bayard Rustin
Bayard Rustin was an African-American leader in social movements for civil rights, socialism, nonviolence, and gay rights. Organised Freedom Rides, frequently arrested for protesting against British colonial rule, in both India and Africa, former communist who moved to become co-chairman of the US Socialist Party, which became the Social Democrat Party.
Sheesh, socialists have fallen a long way, hence “Free Palestine” (destroy Israel).
In the interests of free speech I put up this link which places Israelis in a better light than we usually see. The method seems to make it all clear but I doubt it tells the whole story so if there is something left out or a compromised statement I suggest that the time on the link is referred to and the differing and truer case is stated. Just saying that it is not correct won’t do to illuminate the darkness surrounding this situation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7ByJb7QQ9U
It seems that in many controversial subjects such as this, people turn on others with different views and dispute their right to comment. their views, make critical statements about them. Their whole output may be an emotional diatribe about it.
Wars and regular fighting causing death and serious damage are sensitive matters and can’t be healed or solved, but can sometimes be understood. Also understood should be the amazingly bad things we all can do that is shocking to acknowledge. It doesn’t behove commenters to set up as puritanical actors or witch-hunters. Some objectivity is necessary to see the background to both sides in this supercharged matter. Jews have had whole families killed, factory style and that’s a schism in those people’s lives, and a lasting pain and anger to all connections, and to all who expect better standards in all humanity. However it seems there exists in all people a talent for self-deception and deviousness which needs to be faced with humility by each person, before a judgment can be passed with honesty and sadness.
Only a person who has passed through the gate of humility can ascend to the heights of the spirit. – Rudolf Steiner
“We are all flawed and creatures of our times. Is it fair to judge us by the unknown standards of the future?”
― Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
No point addressing Trotter, great man.
He’s slipped off to nowhere.
Disappointingly.
Or, the Right.
But we have guides who came back from nowhere, and are as right as our long-held beliefs. Just one, two or three.
Incredibly strangely, when we’re right.
The comments here say — idealism has died. And so the Left. And so rationalism. And so the species.
I grew up in a rational time. Comments on a Left site — disgusting. Your tripe is crap — fuck off far away. Or, at least, get paid for it. Like the Yanks near to Fascism.
Knowing NZ, it’s all dim shits playing.
Why do people not support you, Gaby? Read up about Palestine in 1920. The Jews came from that country but they’d been a long time gone. No land deeds remaining. The intelligent Jews from the get-go knew it was a conquest. Just thickos like you left. Wouldn’t be surprised if you were also a racist, counter-logically. My Jewish client born in Palestine was as racist as it gets. Surprised me when I still thought Israel was built on the idealism from the Holocaust — not fkn scape-goating minorities. Even my crazy BAC brother was surprised at his racism.
The great exodus is fakenews
“The 300 thousand strong Israeli military force massed on the border will not be entering Gaza, at least not until the aerial and artillery destruction of Gaza City and the extermination and expulsion of all the inhabitants of North Gaza is completed.”
Just as I grimly predicted. The IDF has confirmed that they will not be entering Gaza until they have killed everyone they can with air strikes and artillery.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/middle-east/300996222/why-israels-ground-invasion-hasnt-happened–yet?cx_testId=3&cx_testVariant=cx_1&cx_artPos=2#cxrecs_s
There is a genocide going on and we just sit and watch.
In the 1940’s the Holocaust was conducted in secret, it wasn’t until after the liberation that the full horror was revealed to the world.
Today due to the internet and social media, we have a ringside seat.
Not just our leaders. None of us can say, ‘we didn’t know’.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/24/israel-gaza-world-leaders-un-genocide-palestinians
We grew up in an era of idealism, that has died a death in the era of endless diversion.
It’s before our faces now.
https://mida.org.il/2014/05/19/ancient-jewish-connection-holy-land-10-major-pieces-evidence/. Amazing, isn’t it, how those ‘colonialist’ Jews keep digging up indisputable archaelogical evidence of their thousands of years old roots in their ancestral homeland, Israel. The Palestinians? Not so much.
There is a greater Jewish tradition you can follow. Truth and reality. You are greats in that. You’re just as narrow as the rest of us in nationalism. No one cares a chicken scratch for the owners of their land who came 1500 years before. I’m sure you’re just learning, like me for many decades.
The Jews should definitely go back where they came from. Oh, that’s right! They did!