Q+A’s startling coverage of China’s economic slump, it’s impact on our economy and the drive to conflict that may drive demands another reflection on New Zealand’s foreign policy.
Our stance of enemy to none, friend to all has allowed New Zealande to build mana as an independent voice globally and that trust shouldn’t be broken.
We must always stand for peace and dialogue over conflict and self interest.
However.
We can not ignore the geopolitical shockwaves and tensions coming our way and that’s why the Māori Party call for Neutrality as our foreign policy position requires far more focus.
The Māori Party called for a change at their AGM in February, calling it “Rangatiratanga and Mana Māori Motuhake in action” where NZ would be like a Switzerland of the South Pacific.
Waititi said, “We will no longer be a political football in the wars of imperial powers. In 1987 Aotearoa declared we were nuclear-free. Te Pāti Māori now declares Aotearoa must be militarily neutral, a Switzerland of the South Pacific”.
The looming economic challenges in China could provoke conflict and New Zealand must prepare for that while arguing for peace.
Our Nation has been dragged into many needless wars, let us have the courage of our convictions and stand with Peace over war.
Let’s have this debate on Neutrality.
First published on Waatea News.
Neutrality simply means you get exploited by both sides, and you don’t have allies who will help.
in principle i am in agreement with this however they have not commented on the cost that comes with neutrality; namely a much higher GDP spend on defense and compulsory military service.
Q&A is a bit late to the party because I posted comments in TDB I think as early as last year that this was coming.
What New Zealanders need to realize is that international diplomacy is a multidimensional game. We haven’t pulled our weight in the military for decades, and we profiteered when Australia faced sanctions by China over their government’s staunch position on Chinese expansionism. So now we are considered a weak link, maybe even a pariah among western aligned nations.
So don’t expect any trade deals with them. We are alone on these little islands. Broke.
The Netherlands had exactly same stance in WW2 just before Germans invaded them.
Very true! But they now have a cycling infrastructure to die for.
When you pay 50m for a few km of cycle way people are dieing for it in NZ already. (how many operations could have been performed for 50m or lifesaving drugs funded)
You might have noticed that our location to China compared with the Netherlands location to Germany is a bit different? This gives us a bit more freedom to examine different options. The USA tells us that China is a bully while other countries will tell you that the USA is a bully so this is not a decision we should rush.
Look how far Alexander the Greats army got on foot for instance and then get back to me.
What would New Zealand neutrality look like in practice?
To be recognised on the World stage as being truly Neutral, New Zealand would have to disentangle our state forces, both military. and intelligence from all links with the Western bloc.
This would entail;
No more joint military training exercises with foreign powers.
No more spy bases on our territory.
The end of 5 Eyes and intelligence sharing with the Western Powers.
A total ban on all visits by all warships from any foreign power, including Australia, to our ports.
A repudiation of AUKUS – specifically New Zealand must withdraw totally from the AUKUS Pillar 2 agreement currently being negotiated especially to draw New Zealand in to the AUKUS nuclear military alliance.
A muscular neutrality may even require the closing of the official diplomatic missions of the Superpowers, if it is deemed that they are working contrary to this country’s peace efforts, and the peace of the region.
To carry any weight at all with the protagonists in the coming Pacific super power conflict, New Zealand’s neutrality will need to ratified at the highest levels of the UN by the both the General Assembly and the Security Council.
This will require the government funding and maintaining of a powerful diplomatic mission by our most able diplomats and lawyers, able to make the case by disclosing before the UN all evidence and credentials of this country’s total neutrality.
The final step to make our neutrality a reality, calling for other Pacific nations to join us, in a mutual coalition of non-aligned states.
“enemy to none, friend to all”
But I don’t want to be friends with all, and some things are worth fighting against. That statement is simply a way of weaselling out of taking a stand for what you think is right.
Great comment Charles.
What do you think is right Charles?
Taking part in an inter-imperialist war that kills millions?
Do you think that is right?
You won’t answer because you are a moral coward.
Your cowardice would see this country take sides in an inter-imperialist conflict. Charles can you honestly look in the mirror and say to yourself that Western imperialism is better than Chinese or Russian imperialism?
The record of imperialist atrocities committed by the UK the US and France says no.
I know you won’t answer, because like many others you are too cowardly to stand up to the global military bullies we are currently aligned with, to chart an independent course.
I for one am happy to look in the mirror and say that Western imperialism is better than Chinese or Russian imperialism.
“I for one am happy to look in the mirror and say that Western imperialism is better than Chinese or Russian imperialism.” James
My apologies again to Charles for misattributing this quote to him. Though I do see from his comments, that Charles is in full agreement with James that Western Imperialism is better than Chinese or Russian imperialism.
To help us judge if they are right, the record of Henry Kissinger, arguably America’s most prominent living strategist responsible for directing modern American imperialist policy, is worth examining.
(I might add a not here, that the actions of one individual, whether they are a Putin, or a Hitler or a Kissinger, no matter how powerful or influential, are representative of a whole system of imperialism. Imperialism is a social and political phenomenon not the will of one individual.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzL7t1m__xA&ab_channel=MSNBC
Pat i’ll ignore the ridiculous “moral coward” blah, blah, blah statements. You obviously know nothing about me.
But I am confused. Are you not the same Pat+O’Dea posting about Russia in other threads? Or did you position suddenly become that we should be friends to people like Putin and let them do what they want, including firing rockets at civilians as he attempts to reclaim what he sees as the glorious past of Russia?
See Pat I think that Putin is a fucking prick and don’t want to be his friend. You may want to as part of “friends to all and enemies to none” but I’ll take my “moral cowardice” and at least make a stand on issues.
“Western imperialism is better than Chinese or Russian imperialism.” Charles
Really?
The atrocities of British and US and French imperialism are well documented.
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2022/12/2/how-british-colonial-policy-killed-100-million-indians
https://www.encyclopedia.com/history/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/united-states-colonial-rule-philippines#
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_across_Samar#/media/File:Editorial_cartoon_about_Jacob_Smith's_retaliation_for_Balangiga.PNG
https://www.trtafrika.com/africa/algerians-remember-french-massacre-of-45000-compatriots-13156640
And that is just some of them.
All imperialisms are racist and genocidal by their very nature. Western Imperialism is no different. All imperialists are racist in that they think they have the God given right to interfere in, and even have direct control over other countries and over other people their economy and their resources.
All imperialisms are genocidal; genocide is the last strategy left to imperialists facing defeat at the hands of an insurgent population in armed rebellion to a foreign imperialist presence in their country.
“You obviously know nothing about me.” Charles
I know you are an anonymous pro-war troll who hides behind a pseudonym.
“…I am confused. Are you not the same Pat+O’Dea posting about Russia in other threads?” Charles
You may be confused Charles, but I am not. I am against all imperialists, and fully support their defeat at the hand of their victims, be they Ukrainian, or Vietnamese, whoever.
“You may want to as part of “friends to all and enemies to none” Charles
It might confuse you even more Charles, but I don’t want to be friend to all and enemy to none, I regard all imperialists as my enemy and an enemy to all humanity.
I regard all pro-imperialist traitors to this country, all the craven lickspittles and quislings that put the interests of any foreign power before the interests of this country as my enemy, and an enemy to this country and the other countries of the Pacific.
“I’ll take my “moral cowardice” and at least make a stand on issues.” Charles
You are not making a stand, you are a crawler to the US imperialists. No different to all the other gutless pro-imperialist, pro-war trolls that infest this website who also cowardly hide behind pseudonyms, all the disgusting pro-Kremlin apologists for Russia’s brutal invasion of Ukraine. Charles you are just on the other side of this bloody pro-imperialist, pro-war equation.
Yup same Pat and agree his above comments make very little sense re his vehement opposition to the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
James I think he is insane to be honest. Either that or he needs to lay off the coffee.
And Pat for the record, if you’re going to make assumptions about people at least make sure you quote them correctly. I never said this:
““Western imperialism is better than Chinese or Russian imperialism.”
You can get back on your soapbox with your incoherent rants now.
(and I still think Putin is a fucking prick but that’s just my moral cowardice showing again)
I never said this:
““Western imperialism is better than Chinese or Russian imperialism.” Charles
My apologies Charles. I misread James comment for your comment.
However I see that you and James do see eye to eye vis a vis Western imperialism.
“(and I still think Putin is a fucking prick but that’s just my moral cowardice showing again)” Charles
You are being facetious of course. But it is mental laziness to blame the war on the character flaws of one individual.
It is like blaming the personal character flaws of Adolf Hitler or Hirohito for their country’s massive military build up, and their respective empire’s challenge to the Western imperialist carve up of the world, which their late developing empires had missed out on.
Sure these imperialist leaders were nasty arseholes, but they had the personal nationalistic and racist profiles that Japanese and German capitalism and imperialism needed.
And though you are joking Charles, it is a morally cowardly position to blame the individual characteristics of Putin, because it ignores and covers up the underlying driver of the Russian Federation’s war against Ukraine. Which is imperialism, ie the capitalist exploitation and domination of other countries. Russian imperialist invasion and attempted take over of Ukraine has nothing to do with NATO or neo-nazis or the (admittedly nasty) personality traits, the ex. KGB Russian Federation leader Vladimir Putin brings to the role, but driven by looming economic collapse within the Russian Federation.
Like Germany in the 1930s Russia’s violent seizure of Ukraine’s territories and resources is an attempted escape from economic and social collapse on the home front.
Like all imperialists, Putin and those who support him hope to benefit from the super profits that derive from imperialist exploitation of other countries and peoples to raise living standards in the homeland, in effect buying off the Russian people by exploiting Ukraine. Imperialism is the forcible export of capitalist exploitation from the home front to overseas.
Stirring up nationalistic fervour and militarism amongst the Russian people, by scapegoating other nations outside Russia for Russia’s internal economic problems, is all part of the mix. Not dissimilar to Hitler’s scapegoating of Jews and degenerate Westerners for Germany’s problems.
“James I think he [Pat] is insane to be honest.” Charles
Whereas you see me as mentally ill. I see you as mentally ill. That it is a mass mental illness that has gripped the minds of millions on both sides of the battle lines is little comfort to me coming as it does before global inter imperialist rivalry breaks out into open warfare.
As the old Wobblies used to say; A bayonet is a weapon with a worker at each end, the financiers bankers, billionaire exploiters and oligarchs who direct and benefit from war won’t be going.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnVIE2eV-eY&ab_channel=TOTYITALY
“It is a morally cowardly position to blame the individual characteristics of Putin, because it ignores and covers up the underlying driver of the Russian Federation’s war against Ukraine. Which is imperialism, ie the capitalist exploitation and domination of other countries.” – Pat
The Soviet Union was clearly imperialistic (i.e. the invasion of Poland in ’39 / occupation of Eastern Europe post-WW2 / Invasion of Afghanistan in ’79 etc) so imperialism is clearly not only the preserve of capitalist societies (the Chinese invasion on Vietnam in ’79 is yet another example) ..
Swiss neutrality is protected with their “Total Resistance” defence. That is based on full trust in it’s population and homogenity in the times of crisis.
Machiavelli decribed that as “Armatissimi et liberissimi”.
Yugoslavia introduced similar defence doctrine and it worked against external threats, but misfired against internal divisions.
The key question for NZ neutrslity is: are we homogenous society?
Good point and of course the answer is we are far from it – in the event of any future ‘issues’ with China we wouldn’t be able to count on the huge numbers of Chinese living in NZ for a start whose only loyalty is to ‘the homeland’ and the Mercedes dealership down the road.
That’s a rather odd comment. There are Chinese families who’ve been in NZ for 150+ years. If they’re loyal to anything Chinese it’s to Chinese culture which means working hard, studying hard, saving your money and keeping out of trouble. They’re not political radicals following orders from either Taipei or Beijing. What is loyalty to the Mercedes dealership supposed to mean ? Is that a desire to protect your hard earned business or a desire for fine automobiles ? Either is perfectly commendable. It’s leftist lunatics like Peace Action Aotearoa who would tear the whole system down and have us eating kumara in hobbit holes.
BTW I loved you in Live at the Apollo
Yes agreed that there are many Chinese NZ’ers who were born here / have had family here for generations and who are good people and ‘Kiwi-as’ .. my comments were directed towards the huge numbers of overseas-born Chinese who in fact would ‘take their orders from Beijing’ rather than Wellington if the need ever arose.
Thanks (Live at the Apollo).
“…we wouldn’t be able to count on the huge numbers of Chinese living in NZ for a start whose only loyalty is to ‘the homeland’ and the Mercedes dealership down the road”. James Brown
What a disturbing display of racist pro-war bullshit.
It’s bullshit because Chinese New Zealanders are just as loyal to this country as any other immigrant group.
It’s disturbing because your racism to Kiwi Chinese is comparable to the American’s racist policy of interning all American Japanese families during WWII. Even the Japanese American families whose sons were fighting in the US army against German fascism in Europe were interned.
James your mistake in seeing war as one racial group against another is a common one. Racism against the enemy is a view that is encouraged by the warring parties to obscure the fact that war is one capitalist bloc against another. if you can convince soldiers that their enemy is inherently untrustworthy because of their race, you can make it easier for those soldiers to kill them.
In World War II, the Pacific War was noted for its extreme racism, (on both sides), Japanese conscript soldiers didn’t surrender because they were fanatics who loved their emperor, but mostly because they knew US troops had been so deeply inculcated with racism that they didn’t take prisoners, and generally murdered any Japanese soldiers they captured.
It is this sort of racism that makes war possible.
You should be ashamed.
Hi Pat,
Have just replied to Jake’s comment above so please see that re a partial reply (if / when my comment actually appears).
Further to that there is a lot of vehement anti-US rhetoric on here for example (Muhammad springs to mind) and I don’t see you taking exception to that?
Lastly in regards to your comments about The Pacific War you will find that the few Japanese soldiers who surrendered to the Americans were generally treated a lot better than American soldiers surrendering to the Japanese.
Neutrality costs a HELLUVA lot. Just ask the Swedes, Austrians, Finns, and Swiss. I don’t think New Zealand would be willing, or even able, to put up the money.
Nope we will just refuse to pay our fair share and then if we ever find ourselves in the shit just expect Aussie / US to be there for us.
Kind of like a lazy entitled teenager.
Correct James. The hypocrisy of people in this country is astounding as they stand on their moral high ground while knowing damned well others will look after us.
Sī vīs pācem, parā bellum – If you want peace, prepare for war.
I fully believe in preparing for the next inter-imperialist war.
We should prepare for this war by seeking diplomatic guarantees through the UN from all the beligerent parties to leave us out of it.
Before the war starts it will good to get an idea of who supports our neutrality and who doesn’t.
We don’t want to be dragged into another stupid war against our will and against our interests.
We need to start straight away by cutting all military and surveilance ties with all foreign countries. (including Australia) Quickly followed by a high powered diplomatic mission to the UN to seek global recognition of our fully neutral status.
Any country that votes down our quest for neutrality in the UN, whether they be in the General Assembly, or the Security Council, will identify themselves as our enemy.
Who’s the enemy?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgspkxfkS4k&ab_channel=WorkingDogProductions
“We should prepare for this war by seeking diplomatic guarantees through the UN from all the beligerent parties to leave us out of it.” Pat
Google ‘UN Safe Area Srebrencia’ and come back to me . .
Good on the Maori party for having this debate or at least trying to. As short as our history is there’s plenty in it to teach us about Colonialism, Imperialism and Pacifism.
Specifically, colonialism is going to happen, imperialism is going to happen and pacifism is not a long term viable strategy.
There are still plenty of shibboleths and bugbears in the conversations about NZ colonial history but the Moriori were massacred, enslaved and eaten and a big part of what distinguished the destiny of the Maori from the destiny of the Australian Aborigines is who got guns and used them.
Fun bonus fact, the Maori name for a double-barreled shotgun “Tupara” is from the Italian “Lupara” for the same thing, a name which breaks down as “For the Wolf” plenty of metaphorical truth there.
Force can only be stopped by countervailing force. But force of course comes in many flavors, we aren’t going to see the 19th and 20th centuries ever again. How much of the culture that we currently consume was conceived in an East coast Ivy league university and propagated by a West coast Hollywood studio ?
NZ needs China in the game. The only way we will achieve any sort of independence is to play both ends against the middle.