Chippy’s inability to answer the question, ‘What is a woman’, is a culture war trigger question as politicians desperately try to answer a simple question without offending the militant Trans Rights allies…
…the true friction point in the trans debate will not be men pretending to be women to cause sexual assault – (although I’m sure that might happen because human beings who want to hurt others manage to find loop holes), but I think ultimately the debate is functionally about biological women sharing personal space with a biological male who has transitioned into being a female.
The Self ID regulations come into effect in June, meaning that a vast number of people will be able to change their gender with far more ease than they can now and that in turn will see biological women starting to share gyms, swimming pool changing rooms and even jail cells with Transwomen.
This isn’t the same issue for men, because most Transmen will be physically smaller than biological men so the physical intimidation isn’t there for biological males, but many biological women might feel very differently when they are confronted by it in their spaces.
Look, ultimately we want everyone regardless of gender identity to enjoy the same agency every citizen has in a liberal progressive democracy, because that’s the promise of liberal progressive democracy. But because the debate is controlled by cancel culture and censorship, there hasn’t been a debate between biological women and the Trans community on how to share that space respectfully.
Posie Parker is a manifestation of what happens when you deplatform debate and there is a cost to that. It’s one thing to change your Twitter profile to the Trans Ally Flag and quite another being exposed to a penis when you are a women changing in the gym.
When that starts happening, there could be an enormous backlash as biological women suddenly understand what they are being asked to give up.
This debate requires good faith decency and understanding, sadly all we have are two sides justifying violence against the other.
We need far less anger and hostility in this debate and far more focus on solutions.
We all have to share this space respectfully with one another, that’s the point of living in a civilised society.
The drive by some on the Left to draw energy from mob violence and promote more of it is is a fucking stupid idea because the Right have seen the rules have changed and an actual physical fight is what the protests now offer.
We really really really don’t want to justify political violence.
We really, really, really don’t want to be doing that.
Our preference should be dialogue.
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I’m not entirely happy with self-identified transgendered women being used to fill required quotas on decision-making boards, or in businesses, and government departments and organisations.
This has the practical effect of excluding biological women from these positions, and therefore it can be seen as discriminatory, and as defeating both the purpose and hypothetical reasons for wanting women’s input, skills and wisdom.
Diversity quotas already stop the best person necessarily getting the jobs, but when the person herself differs in various practical and existential ways from the reasons for which they were included, biological women’s voices are again being silenced. These are the sort of discussions we should be having instead of adult human females being shouted down and censored and bullied for trying to speak.
Yes Snow.
Identity politics means that if you are a part of a majority you will lose some or all of your agency. Trans women (about 1/2 of 1%?) win over biological women (52%), ethnic peoples win over the majority race, ‘indigenous’ people win over other minority ethnicities, some religions win over other religions etc etc and if we run out of minorities we can always create more – dare I say, Cat Gender?
It makes no sense on every level especially when you consider productivity and cost effectiveness. What the world needs is definite but broad brush solutions to issues of inequity built firmly on the foundation of unity and aspiration.
Yvonne van Dongen said that Identity Politics exists on valorising victims and if we live in a society where everyone is a victim and victims are special what does it do to us as a society?
A population where we trip over ourselves to prove, display or even invite victimhood as a way of establishing where we are in the pecking order. I’d even go so far as to say that this is what the trans lobby is doing to itself. It won many of it’s battles but had to go further and further with the rhetoric of ‘Victims are heroes’ (Basically Eli Rubashkyn’s narrative) and because of it they end up alienating more people and thus reinforce their victim status.
It’s absolutely nuts and it is so much more than just individual tribes fighting for their rights, it is quite literally a world that is drowning in chaos staring down the barrel of some very major existential crises. When are these self involved myopic idiots going to pull their heads out and see what is coming?
Fantail. Briefly, if we go back to where this seems to have originated, with the uber rich plastic surgeons and other cavalier medical practitioners,and unscrupulous powerful pharmaceutical companies in the USA, then many transgendered people are in fact victims, and very tragic victims when one listens to the heartbreaking narratives from some of the de-transitioned – or the would be’s.
The genderID agenda being embedded in the New Zealand school system should have legal provisions to allow young folk here to sue the politicians who’ve pushed all this, if their lives become worsened or unstuck, but the pollies will be vamoosed. And the Educ Dept are the incompetents replacing the Commissioner for Children.
Why choose to be a victim, when there are already so many that will force that role on you, given half a chance. Be strong, be powerful, lead not follow, be unstoppable, create your own destiny and be master of it, don’t let others define who you are, be yourself.
Of course if you want to be a loser, a victim, pathetic and worthless, then I guess that is your choice and you will get to live that role.
Regarding your quote, ‘We need far less anger and hostility in this debate and far more focus on solutions.”
Well said Martyn.
Absolutely I agree wholeheartedly.
The truth is the truth.
Saying that humans have two legs is true.
Just because someone has one leg doesn’t mean they are not human. They could have gotten cancer. Lost it in a car accident. The point is when we see a human with one leg we know something is wrong.
Same for woman.
If a woman for whatever reason can’t give birth then she can go and get a diagnosis and find out why. Might not get cured but we would know what’s wrong.
But if a biological man said that he couldn’t give birth no doctor on earth is going to find out why because we know that men can not give birth.
The fact of the matter is 99% of the anti trans dialogue is being driven by the religious right who don’t even accept homosexuality let alone the multiple biological sexual gender identities there are.
On top of that you have the extreme conservatives and the far right using it for political purposes.
As was stated by someone else on a Facebook trans and most women use the cubicles not open spaces in changing rooms and public toilets. women’s toilets etc do not have urinals etc.
So a lot of the discussion is driven by men stirring up shit.
The let women speak types will never accept trans women full stop.
Geoff In some unisex toilets, some men exit the cubicles into the shared toiletry spaces still zipping themselves up or front fumbling. It’s a bit crude to see. Many males don’t wash their hands and that’s rather off putting also.
Couldnt agree with you less Geoff. Most women who are in it are apolitical or not obviously one side or another (Although yes there is a cadre of leftie lesbians).
I have seen no religious allusions although I know that there is a fundamental disconnect between Muslim woman’s rights and men in changing rooms.
Mostly it is Mums and Grandmothers and their overwhelming desire is not so much women’s rights but their desire to keep their children safe (puberty blockers) and daughters safe and motivated (men in women’s sport and girls safety in toilets in particular).
I fully support peoples right to express themselves and have absolutely zero prejudice towards the rainbow community but you come between me and my children’s safety and I wont fail to stand up. That is why it is becoming such a big issue.
Fantail. On a London bus, a timid Muslim woman passed me money and asked me to pay the ambulatory conductor for her, clearly reluctant to make that contact. He took it as a personal insult and berated both of us.
Where is the evidence that women wanting to speak on this issue are ‘anti-trans’? We want to speak about rights and provisions for women and girls.
To many of us it looks like transactivists are anti-women and many of us who are LGB see gender ID ideology as being homophobic. Plenty of LGB people do not agree with gender ID ideology: ie these ideologues say the lesbian and gay means being same-gender attracted and not same-sex attracted.
Where is your evidence that we are being driven by the religious right?
Karolyn-IS. “ being driven by the religious right”? Police passively observing the extremist intimidation of women at Albert Park were more than just men behaving badly, they were men seemingly acting under orders to permit the obstruction of women wanting to speak.
Coincidentally, the Police Commissioner seems to be a committed Christian member of a religious group. Coincidentally, the religious shutting up women begins with the apostle Paul commanding women be silent, in direct opposition to the inclusive message of his dead leader, Jesus the Galilean; western Christianity’s historical oppression of women is well documented.
The loud vilification of pro-women activists by politicians and complicit MSM prior to Albert Park was another pernicious weapon in the armoury
of those who are opposed to freedom of speech. It shouldn’t have happened, and it didn’t have to be this way.
Where do you get your “facts from Geoff? How is it relevant to this debate
“The let women speak types will never accept trans women full stop.” yes your right but the Trans Cult will never accept trans woman aren’t full female either. Its hell of a stalemate.
80% of transhumans who mutilate Thier own bodies are homosexual. How the homo community and tranny community are going to be buddies long term is just fucked up.
I am a conservative religious person & I fully accept that people feel that they are born with whatever gender/lifestyle preference they claim but the only evidence available tells us that it is all in the mind. There is nothing biological, chemical, or inherited that can tell us what a person’s preference will be. If you could do an autopsy ( I am not suggesting that we kill any people to find out) & say that the person was Gay using scientific methods then I would be convinced that they were born that way but for now, the only explanation I can agree with is that some sort of choice is involved. Because I serve a loving God I treat all the people I meet with respect even though I might not agree with their lifestyle.
This is what Posie thought it would be like as she walked into the crowd…
https://i0.wp.com/writesomeshit.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/daenerys-targaryen-573406.jpg?resize=381%2C238&ssl=1
A good read on gender identities;https://www.psycom.net/gender-identity?
Thanks for sharing.
Ah, no. That link brings in Intersex, which is a red herring. It has nothing to do with sex self ID. The preferred term these days is DSD (Difference in Sex Development). And most of the conditions under that umbrella are for people who are either male or female.
The gender ID ideologues keep using Intersex to justify their ideology and especially gender/sex self ID, even though many people with DSD conditions complained that they are being misrepresented, and have asked transactivists to stop doing it.
Of course, among males, and among females there is a great deal of diversity in physical capabilities, personal interests and ways of presenting ourselves.
The sex of each human is can be verified medically and scientifically, and are far more stable and objective categories than an individual’s self IDed gender.
Basically, the sex of humans is a whole system thing: either an individual has the anatomy built around a male or a female reproductive system. The purpose of that system in all mammals, is to produce small gametes (sperm in human males) or large gametes (eggs in human females) when fertile.
The graphs on this website shows how atypical sex chromosomes (DSD conditions) result in a male or female reproductive system, although some will not be fertile.
https://www.theparadoxinstitute.com/read/sex-development-charts
Below the charts, the terms in the charts and the development of male and female humans is explained.
Gender ID ideology is basically dependent on sex-based stereotypes: eg if a boy likes dolls and pretty things, or a girls likes playing with trucks and enjoys rough and tumble play, or child likes a mixture of both sorts of activities, some people these days can start to question if they are trans.
Gender critical feminists are sex realists in that we say humans are a sex dimorphic species (sex is binary and immutable). This results in some physical differences between males and females that are crucial in some areas of life: eg health, most post-puberty sports, in connection with violence against women by men, intimate care and spaces, etc. However, we are against sex-based stereotyping when it comes to life opportunities (re-income, most jobs eg lawyers, accountants, business managers, carpentry, motor mechanic), or style of dress, (we’ re fine with men wearing dresses, make-up and high heels), etc.
Really interesting charts – thanks. No X chromosome, no viable fetus was interesting too. I’d forgotten that one.
Read it. I have no problem with this person. Wish them well. But if they get pregnant don’t expect us to change our language eg to birthing person.
Or if they commit a crime, they might want to consider not going into a man’s prison.
Surgery for trans people seems fraught with complications and I am inclined to agree with Kelly Jean, that it should not be available till they are 25 years.
I wish this person well, but the reality is you can’t change sex.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/mar/31/woman-trans-man-gender.
Good read : the let women speak types should read.
Agree with this, especially, “This debate requires good faith decency and understanding,”
Where is the evidence for this, “sadly all we have are two sides justifying violence against the other.”
Because, from what I’ve been seeing, the violence at protests is all coming from one side: the transactivist side.
Gender critical women have been having peaceful events. Although, if the anti-feminist, male-dominated right gets on board, then their maybe violence from them. That’s a good reason for the transactvitists and their allies to stop the ‘no-debate’, cancel, censoring approach, and start with good faith dialogue.
Certainly, those of us gender critical feminists, who are firmly on the left, and don’t support Kelly-Jay Keen’s hyperbole and headline grabbing approach want to see happen as soon as.
How much of the “trans fear” is based on reality and how much is just fear inducing hypothetical situations? You are probably significantly less likely to see a penis on a trans-woman in a woman’s changing room, than that charming cis guy you’ve just met in a bar, will slip some rohypnol in your drink. If you are seeing an unwanted penis, it is most likely on a straight, cis-gendered guy. If you are being raped or sexually assaulted, it will most likely be by a straight, cis-gendered guy. If your child is being raped or sexually assaulted, it will most likely be by a straight, cis-gendered guy. So is this moral panic justified or just another anti-trans attack?
After the Me too movement where it was found widespread sexual violence covered up by powerful men, and police rape https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louise_Nicholas, https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-64289461, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Epstein, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvey_Weinstein_sexual_abuse_cases, people hoped things would get better for woman.
They were starting to change, then suddenly the Me Too movement was displaced by a huge, well funded, push for any man to be able to self ID as a woman without a court or doctors recommendation.
It is now ok, to be who you want to be. That might sounds wonderful but statistics and the Me Too show some men’s happy place, is of rape and sexual violence that they get away with.
Allowing any man who feels like it, to now self describe as a woman without sufficient controls on that is putting the woman’s movement back significantly, and making a mockery of violence towards woman and positive discrimination for woman.
If you know anything about rape, it is about control.
Sexual violence and abuse of power that was being addressed by the me too movement, has now been overturned by Men being able to say, Me Too.
It is a fuck you, to sexual assault victims when a man being able to control the narrative by saying he is a woman, too.
As for seeing more penises in woman’s changing rooms from June, is that ok if you have a young daughter changing in public changing rooms and now any self IDing penises are there too?
Being able to freely throw juice, yoghurt and punch old woman in a protest for woman rights, while the woke politicians cheer them on, is not really a positive change for violence against woman.
The opposite.
As someone said above,
If a man wishes to see himself as a woman, that’s up to him to decide. If he wishes the rest of us to see himself as one, well, that’s our decision.
The power control is also shown in statistics, prior to the Me Too movement most transgender were woman change to men, after Me Too the opposite is happening and more men are transitioning to woman.
Being transgender does not stop violence. https://metro.co.uk/2023/03/29/trans-woman-who-stabbed-her-partner-will-serve-time-in-mens-prison-18520930/
The coverup and enabling of violence from the transgender community, is akin the the coverup from Epstein’s victims when police and media helped him keep offending for decades.
Good points SaveNZ
Is it a debate? More like a shouting match between small groups and slightly larger supporter groups with the vast majority looking on in puzzlement.
Thank you Martyn. I feel you have represented women’s concern here well.
Some of what you have mentioned is already happening in NZ ie biological men going into women’s spaces and competitions. SUFW is monitoring this. Unfortunately the Minister of Women isn’t. In 5 years time when the legislation is reviewed the Minister has to consult with the trans community about how it is going. There is no obligation to ask women. That is why it doesn’t bother me one dot if Seymour cancel the Ministry of women.
Btw Martyn. I disagree with you statement about both sides justifying violence. SUFW and the Let Women Speak people are/were peaceful. As is JK Rowling etc. I have never heard any gender critical feminist justifying violence. We condemn it.
But the Greens went off “to fight Nazis” and then failed to condemn the violence against the let women speak group
Posie Parker has asked for armed men to go into womens toilets…..and to be fair there were also significant number of Nazi type groups (UK force for good, ValidLs, National Housing Party) who prominently attended her Let Women Speak events in the Uk. Unless she comes out and disavows & keeps them from her events then she’ll be tainted by them. It is really important for the guys here that you also call out any that try to sneak in.
Very sad indeed when we care more about a visting women speaker from the UK than NZ women who are being threatened on twitter and other social media sites for speaking up/out, sounds like more hypocrisy in our country.
Good luck with civil dialogue with the Trans Cult. If we don’t fully accept them as woman then there is no negotiation to be had and them having a separate area or third option changing room is not accepting them fully a woman. This is a hard problem to sort out given how militant the Trans cult have become.
It’s not a simple ol case of “listen to women” because we’re not all thinking the same thing about transwomen. Most women I know either don’t know or are quite happy to have a different type of woman using our toilets & changing rooms or are not too sure about the sports thing but that’s it. A whole lot of us wouldn’t notice a trans woman anywayt- we just want to do our business & get out. BUT I also don’t want a load of Karens embolden to go around harassing our friends because they look a bit ‘man-y'(like is happening overseas). My (cis) female friends and relatives are however pretty pissed off by a small group of women telling us what we think tbh.
It is one of the sad things with any anti-trans backlash that some women may not “pass” as women, despite being born as female, because they don’t look feminine enough. Women come in all sizes & shape, and it is not for others to judge the validity of their femininity.
– and for you men who think you are allies: I don’t know what happens in YOUR changing rooms and toilets BUT if I saw a penis in either of these places ( and it would only be the changing rooms) then I feel the same way as if I saw a pussy – * ugh, embarrassing* – and I’ll just pretend I hadn’t seen it. Because I don’t want to be seeing lady lumps either…
“Trans-rights” was never a problem in the last 100 years, until we (i.e. woke feminists) suddenly made it one using social media to make an issue 0.01% of people care about seem like at least 50%. Only women can take back their spaces, and if they refuse to do so…. well I hope they enjoy the new patriarchy.
I don’t believe that cutting and burning little bits off of yourself is a human right that grants more life.
Personally I would adopt a liberal approach towards this subject but also with a view to increasing security so that everyone feels safe. What about an increase in private cubicles and an increase in single jail cells. This isn’t any more of an issue than what any individual makes it.
I do feel that a biological make typically has more testosterone than a biological female. Therefore in terms of competition sports biological males and biological females should continue to be separated, generally speaking. I wouldn’t want men transitioning and then being able to win at Women’s volleyball, for example, but nor would I want women being able to transition and then win at Men’s netball.
Be sensible about it, folks, and don’t make it into a bigger issue than what it is.
Would you notice a trans women naked with their penis out in a change room? I would
You should have included this clip Martyn:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yI6qvQtrTU8
Talk about a side show. Times are tough and yet endless space is wasted on this crap. Our unofficial rulers are chuckling up a storm.
Good to know that from June, Neve and Chippies daughter will be able to change in the public swimming pools with self ID woman with penises watching on.
It’s wonderful to be who you want to be, in NZ!
No need for doctor or judicial scrutiny on who will be in the public changing rooms with the kids!
Child sexual abuse is one in 5 in NZ. That is pretty high. In 2020 there were 1,488 cases of aggravated sexual assault on children under 15 years in NZ.
My point is not that transgender are child abusers, but that child abusers can use NZ’s very loose transgender laws to further abuse children in NZ. And there are a high amount of child abusers in NZ some of whom like Toko (Ashley) Shane Winter include the transgender community, convicted of a teenage murder./torture
When we look at violence against woman in NZ – again also extremely high. Making it easier for any man to take advantage of these loose transgender laws is completely irresponsible.
Non-partner sexual assault: 1 in 14 in NZ.
https://www.childmatters.org.nz/insights/nz-statistics/
We already know NZ welcomes child abusers into NZ! They have given up on people with good character being a requirement to live here.
Child abuser wins right to stay in New Zealand for humanitarian reasons
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/84891031/child-abuser-wins-right-to-stay-in-new-zealand-for-humanitarian-reasons
Child abuse dad avoids deportation on humanitarian grounds to stay with family
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/76059417/
New resident convicted of sex offending twice, won’t be deported
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11837608
Judge’s difficult sentencing of a former refugee who won’t stop offending
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/111480343/judges-difficult-sentencing-of-a-refugee-who-wont-stop-offending
Rapist wins case to be allowed to stay in NZ
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/327784/rapist-wins-case-to-be-allowed-to-stay-in-nz
We already have enough sexual predators in NZ, but cheap labour is worth turning a blind eye for!
Man accused of abduction and rape of school-age girl in Blenheim granted interim name suppression
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/man-accused-of-abduction-and-rape-of-school-age-girl-in-blenheim-granted-interim-name-suppression/6SVQFCH3LJFKDLVGHGK7YJST4U/
Seasonal workers jailed for lakeside abduction and sex attack
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/121597832/seasonal-workers-jailed-for-lakeside-abduction-and-sex-attack
Seasonal worker facing rape charge breaches bail
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/122184984/seasonal-worker-facing-rape-charge-breaches-bail
So much of NZ’s laws seem to be enabling further violence towards woman and children. Not surprising considering young female lawyers are also fair game for senior lawyers who are above the law! https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/16/new-zealand-legal-profession-russell-mcveagh-sexual-harassment-scandal
Don’t forget the government has also have got rid of the children commission.
“Concern is growing about plans to disestablish the Children’s Commissioner role and other changes to the oversight of the state care system, with children’s charities saying the reforms are being rushed through without sufficient scrutiny.”
https://www.newsroom.co.nz/push-to-save-childrens-commissioner-from-govt-reforms
No surprises our government find Posy Parker vile and want to stop any pro woman’s voices coming to NZ!
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