The type of State that would force an injection on an individual against their consent is no State to defend or support


Coronavirus: ‘Compulsion might become necessary’ to get vaccine coverage high enough – law expert

Free vaccinations, if delivered conveniently and safely as part of a targeted public health education campaign to overcome vaccine hesitancy, are an effective tool. Lowering the age for vaccinations will also lift the overall percentage of uptake. If all else fails, even cash incentivesmay help to increase voluntary vaccination.

But compulsion might become necessary. While the general rule is that people can refuse medical treatments, in times of emergency this can be trumped and regulations could be introduced to enforce vaccination.

Let me be clear.

I am pro pro pro the vaccination, I am angry that my booking to get it is still 20 bloody days away, I urge everyone to trust the science and get vaccinated as soon as humanly possible and for any friends or whanau who are hesitant reach out to them, b-u-t I can not and will never support forced vaccinations!

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The ongoing attempt by the Incel alt-right and loony new age crystal brigade to paint the wearing of face masks as some type of Nazi Police State overreach is as delusional as claims of microchips in the vaccine but we can’t allow our anger at their fear inspired stupidity to lead us down the dark paths of enforced vaccination.

Yes employers have the right to make vaccinations as part of a reason to hire someone, no employers can’t sack an existing employee for not being vaccinated, yes we should incentivize getting vaccinated, yes we need better community messaging no no no no no we can’t force mandatory vaccinations.

I know we want to, our fear of this damned plague bursting out and disrupting our lives again, getting us sick even after vaccination alongside our anger at the denial of science by these anti-vaxxers will propel us towards arguments and desires to enforce the vaccination on everyone but this is a direction all people of conscience, regardless of political perspective must avoid.

The individual has intrinsic rights, we can’t force the individual to take a medicine they don’t consent to in such an invasive way, we simply can’t!

The type of State that would force an injection on an individual against their consent is no State to defend or support.

Right after getting the vaccination I’d be out protesting against forcing people to get the vaccination (while telling them they are fools to not get the vaccination!).

We have to win those who are vaccine hesitant over with good will while upholding our civil liberties!

I don’t mind incentives or exclusion as coercion to get people vaccinated but we can’t physically force people to get vaccinated.

Let’s just agree that we won’t and are not going to tie people down and force a syringe into their arm no matter how noble our cause because down that road lies a terrible darkness.

We are better than that.

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  1. Agree it would be wrong to force the vaccine but in my mind it would be ok to exclude unvaccinated people from most of the pleasures society offers . Work and play would be curtailed to all, not vaccinated by choice of course those unable to be vaccinated would be exempt but must except a testing programme.
    My fear is this government knowing they are losing voters will not have the courage to do this properly

    • And what colour arm band should the unvaxxed (unclean) wear so you can identify them?
      Yellow and the Star of David has been used before so you can’t use that one again.

      • Kevin – I agree with Trevor. It’s not a matter of the those who are not vaccinated wearing a coloured arm band. Rather, it would be proper for those people who are vaccinated to have a vaccination certificate issued to them confirming they have been vaccinated.

        Those who do not have a vaccination certificate would not be allowed entry to certain venues where the public are gathering or to travel. This process would not be intended to humiliate them as the Yellow Star of David was intended for the Jewish people, instead it would be to protect everyone else.

        • So the equivalent of the ‘Book of life’ (pass book) that was used in Apatheid South Africa to differentiate ‘people’.
          Thanks for not trying to humiliate me, but all Fascist states come up with different (learned from the last error) ways to control citizens.
          Remember the words of Martin Niemoller….’first they came for………

  2. I am still waiting for a real vaccine to be produced.

    The various kinds of stuff being touted as vaccines around the world have limited efficacy -perhaps none against recent mutstions-.and undesirable side effects. And none have been tested for long-term effects because everything has been done in a badly organised panic.

    I still cannot see the point in attempting to ‘save the population’ from a virus if at the same time the government condemns the entire population to starvation and overheating and other horrors via its abject failure to plan for Peak Oil and Abrupt Climate Change.

    Seems to me it’s more about business-as-usual than health.

    • Agreed.
      You somehow tread the thin line between disagreeing with this site and not being ‘banned’ like a lot of my remarks are, when I make any serious comments against ‘the science’ (mere political IMHO) that is claimed.

    • Vaccines are never 100% effective. The Pfizer vaccine is 88% effective against getting sick with Delta variant, which is what we have now. We are going to need to keep getting new vaccinations as the virus changes, but there will never be a time when the vaccine is a perfect match for the variants of most concern at any one time. Sure there are undesirable side effects: my arm hurt for about 12 hours after vaccination. The side effects of not having enough people vaccinated is a whole lot of people dying, particularly the old and medical staff.

  3. Hear hear forced vaccination would be a step towards totalitarianism that we should not take and will regret if we ever do.
    Let history judge the rights and wrongs of ‘Spanish inquistion’ that is being murmured right now.
    Policial science is NOT science. As per Galileo, Apatheid S.A banning those trying to tell the truth or challenge the political dogma of the day.

  4. There’s a massive inconsistency here, when it is not government policy or practice to force covid vaccination upon the unwilling, but the same government has also signalled its intention to force hesitant parents to agree to pre- adolescent children receiving puberty blockers. Presumably this cock-eyed government ranks the common good lower than the sometimes- fleeting gender angst of kids which has minimal, if any, effect upon the whole country or the economy.

  5. I agree and I seriously do not think you could vaccinate the unwilling even if authorities wanted to.

    But this country is now in a hell of a bind. I suspect Covid Delta is the real deal we all expected 18 months ago, super contagious and just as deadly.

    Auckland is not in a 2 week lockdown at level 4, it’s indefinite, if the government want to be honest. Which they don’t.

    There’s way too many places of interest to count and lockdown fatigue is setting in. The new infection numbers are remaining stubbornly high. The genie is out of the bottle and she does not want to go back in.

    If we can’t get rapid vaccinations done to cover most of Auckland, we’re Melbourne. And they know if they relax the levels in Auckland it’s out to the rest of NZ in a matter of weeks. And our health system does not stand a chance with low vaccinations.

    Labour and Jacinda were perfect for the 2020 edition but they squandered 18 months and left the most densely populated city to be the international border. Now the reaction model is too little too late. And none of this is in hindsight either.

    Forward planning that Labour simply couldn’t/wouldn’t do is now haunting it. And us!

  6. You are 100% correct Bomber. That said the control freaks in society want mandates on everything. Modern Left wing theory has passed you by.

  7. ” Israel is now the world’s Covid hotspot: Cases soar despite country’s trail-blazing vaccine ( Pfizer ) roll-out – sparking fears other highly-vaccinated countries will be hit by another wave due to jabs’ waning immunity
    Israel recorded 1,892 cases per million people on Wednesday — nearly 0.2% of entire population in single day
    Despite being one of the most vaccinated nations in world, country is in midst of an unprecedented new wave
    Fears Britain could now follow suit has led to growing calls for a mass booster vaccine rollout this winter ”

    Could it be the MRNA genetic intervention ( not a vaccine actually ) is causing the real virus to mutate to get around v..axed people? I’m not an anti vaxer. Properly constituted and tested vaccines have defeated Polio and Smallpox.

  8. Curious.
    You want to mandate poverty and homelessness out of existence for the greater good, but somehow it’s different when it comes to vaccinations for the common good.
    You have painted yourself into the classic leftie paradox.

    • False equivalence. i.e. while vaccinations are (so far) a choice, poverty usually isn’t. Homelessness, is the better analogy, since there are shelters that you can choose to use or not. I’m not sure that Martyn has ever advocated for forcing people into houses.

  9. The booking system for vaccination is terrible. It is not that hard to get better IT. If you put in your address it can not search correctly to find your nearest facility. The people that are playing by the rules are still not vaccinated because the system has many weeks wait time in Auckland to get vaccinated. This is not helped by bad IT which can’t seem to identify the vacancies correctly based on address.

  10. Simple.
    Do what government’s do all around the world. Bribery.

    Get a vaccine jab at KFC, Macas, BK ect… and you can get fries too!

    “Get a ‘Jab Pack’ at your local fastfood outlet and we’ll throw in a diabetes check up as well!”

  11. I had my second dose yesterday at the Mangere drive-thru. I honestly thought it would take me hours to get through but to my surprise I was in and out in 20 minutes. The staff and organization was great but they must have only been working at 10% of capacity. That is not an exaggeration. We need to get as many needles in the arms of unvaccinated people as quick as possible.

    Martin, if you want to get an earlier appointment try the chemists, my wife got a spot with 2 days notice.

  12. Hi mate,

    You’ve got an interesting take on this issue. Just as a caveat here I am booked in to get vaxed for ç19. You said it would be ok for businesses not to employ people if they aren’t. Although I understand this point of view, I find it scary. From just a health perspective would it be ok for someone not be employed because they drink too much monster energy, smoke, or are fat,
    eat too much processed food etc. Let’s now extend that out to you can’t come to my cafe because you are fat., It risks my chairs and if you become type 2 diabetic you will put strain on the health care system, which could cause a lock down. These are all health issues, they put massive strain on the system. It also concludes that the vax is our exit ticket from this mess, honestly I think we are dreaming considering the vaccines waning efficacy and increased variants. Anything that causes people to be excluded from society is a crazy slippery slope. Maybe I am just cynical.

    • I hear what you say but I know plenty of bosses whom when they hired take into account thinks like body size if they smoke etc . They may not put it in the job description but it is a factor so it would be good to have it as a proper criteria so at least the job applicate know why they missed out. No jab no job

  13. It’s an interesting dilemma the State might face. In the past the anti vacc’s have been able hide behind those who are vaccinated and still be protected, as would the rest of the community. This because of herd immunity. With Covid Delta this won’t work as we know even highly vaccinated countries are seeing the virus get away on them again. countries that have large amounts of virus circulating and deaths to match, don’t have so much to loose as us. Large numbers are dying and it’s accepted. For us to attempt to stave off this eventuality we would need maybe 90% vaccinated and boosters likely needed. Anti vacc,s of maybe 10% doesn’t fit with a successful outcome. Without mandatory vaccination we would be forever locking down if we didn’t accept a death rate way higher than now. Martyn is right. We may face this choice and it’s not just a choice of freedom. It may mean having an acceptable death rate that any of us could be part of.

  14. In the US with its poor education and antivaxxers and freedom lovers they have achieved 90% vaccination in some age groups. Apart from the fear the other incentive for people to get vaccinated has been tickets in vaccination lotteries where the jab gives you a chance to win millions. NZ should do this to boost the vaccination rate from expected 70% upto a herd immunity 90%.

  15. Strawman there. That they can’t take part in society for their ‘individualism’ is, however, right. They just need to address the ideas there.

    This supposed crisis has crystalized to me how freedom comes from democratic societies and nothing else.

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