No wonder Mike King handed back his medal – the real difference between Labour and National (you wont like it)


News that despite pumping $1.9billion into mental health, all we have gained is 5 extra acute mental health beds is a shocking indictment on Labour’s ability to deliver…

Mental Health: Minister ‘extraordinarily frustrated’ as just five new acute beds added after $1.9b investment

Health Minister Andrew Little says he is “extraordinarily frustrated” that the Government’s $1.9 billion mental health package isn’t flowing through to actual services – and has hinted at an independent review of the process.

It comes after Newshub reported just five extra acute mental health beds had been added from $235 million invested in mental health facilities in Budget 2019, and Stuff revealed a huge underspend in the flagship new service for those with more moderate mental health needs.

…this is ultimately a political failure by Labour – they didn’t expect to win in 2017 & didn’t expect to win a majority in 2020, so they had no reform agenda for the neoliberal bureaucracy.

TDB Recommends

There’s no point shoveling billions into policy when the bureaucracy fiefdoms rule!

You can see why Mike King handed back his medal in shame and why we are now seeing stories of patients being forced to sleep on a mattress on the floor because there were no mental health beds left…

Newshub has spoken to one patient forced to sleep on a mattress on the floor of a communal lounge because there were no mental health beds left.

Kiana has a history with post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) and bulimia nervosa. She’s been dealing with our broken mental health system for six years.

…do you want to know the real difference between Labour and National?

I’m warning you, you won’t like it, but it’s true.

The real difference difference between Labour and National is this.

National are ruthless pricks. Nasty, bullying ruthless pricks and you need nasty bullying ruthless  pricks to beat the bejesus out of the Wellington bureaucracy to actually get shit done.

Labour on the other hand wants to give everyone a cuddle and an inclusive Hui with a vegan lunch menu in te Reo and a side dish of pronouns, where they all feel safe and as such, the Wellington bureaucracy isn’t scared of Labour.

Jacinda pumped $1.9 billion into mental health and what has she got for it? 5 extra acute mental health beds! The Wellington bureaucracy are laughing at her and divvying up the latest splurge of cash on whatever they want.

New Zealanders don’t understand that the representative democracy they interact with once every 3 years is merely a masquerade of democracy, a pretense to keep you voting and giving the process the flimsiest of legitimacies, the real powers are the Wellington bureaucracy and a Party’s success is determined purely by how much they can force the Wellington bureaucracy to actually implement policy.

In the words of the great Unionist, Robert Reid…

National got shit done because the Wellington bureaucracy was frightened of them, Labour can’t achieve jack shit because they are too busy giving everyone a cuddle.

Kiwibuild, child poverty, inequality, that bloody bike bridge we all know they will never build – Labour can’t bully or headkick the Wellington bureaucracy and that’s why nothing ever gets done.

To spend $1.9B on mental health and only have 5 extra beds is a fucking shambles and embarrassment.


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  1. Yep, this one is indefensible.

    Mental Health badly needs this budget input but 2 years later it is, so I am reliably told, worse than ever.

    That equals unnecessary suffering and lives lost, innocent lives lost my because some arseholes within the “public service” don’t agree and weak government can’t do it’s elected job.

    Either there is a serious culling of Ministry of Health management immediately or Labour MPs should pack it in and give up.

    Too many policy failures are stacking up, and housing which is a major contributor to mental health issues, continues to worsen.

  2. Labour is the political wing of the woke, joyless, morally superior, grossly incompetent, working class loathing bureaucratic elite.
    Or “ they are us” as the prime minister might say.

    • Everything you said was correct apart from”working class”, Labour is the epitome of middle class socialists. How many have spent time on the factory floor?

      • Just my bad grammar, it was meant to read as “working class loathing” as in they loath the working classes and their vulgar utes and crass outdoor hobbies like fishing or playing rugby.

  3. Because Labour did no substantive policy development when they were out of government, they are forced to appoint commissions and ‘working groups’ to try and deliver something, anything.

    If they were honest with themselves and sincerely wanted to fix a problem they would pick commissioners who were simply competent. But they don’t. Fearful of delivering solutions outside of their narrow ideological framework, instead they choose people who are politically sound but are otherwise as useless. Typically:

    >A couple of academic mates from the local uni. Usually in an irrelevant and flaky subject but also having no real world experience or a record of delivering anything to anyone.

    >A couple of union hacks.

    >A brown person or two just to tick the box (this is *actual* racism)

    >A gay person or two just to tick that box

    >A party donor; or their offspring so as to hide the backscratching.

    > A generic manager/director/administrator type with no specialist skills but who get a pretty report published even though it is tripe.

    • Racism Andrew is not having any brown people and that is how it used to be and who has had all the hierarchal positions in the state sector and who have they mostly employed, people like themselves of course.

      • Racism is not having any brown people BECAUSE they are brown people. Missing one race (or ethnicity or gender) purely because no one appropriately skilled, qualified, or generally up to the job happened to apply for a specific job is not racism or sexism. I think most of NZ would be perfectly happy if the best people ended up being all from one race, gender etc group, rather than requiring an appearance of tokenism. I would consider nothing to be so insulting as to think I got a position purely to fill a quota. Or to have other people think that of me.

      • No! Just the opposite in fact.
        When the government nominates brown faces on to these committees in order to tick a box, those brown persons and nearly everyone else knows that they’re not because of their competence. So how do you think that makes them feel?
        The signal given out to the community by these appointments is “We accept you brown fellas aren’t very smart but we’ll give you these token appointments to make you feel better”
        It is the racism of low expectations. If you wish to find ‘systemic racism’ here in New Zealand, it is this.

        • The racism is your gross assumption that brown faces could only be on committees to tick a box when Maori and Pacific Islanders have representatives every bit as qualified and intelligent as their pakeha counterparts. that’s racist as f.

    • So what substantive policy on mental health did National have in 9 years Andrew?


      An ex National party hack employed the WDHB CEO (friend )after advice from his Canadian counterpart to stay well clear. That’s what you get with National even after being told not too. Now we have the same thing happening with their leadership selection. Collins and Co have completely ignored advice and keeping it ” in house).

      National had two policies in 9 years , roading and massive immigration, this has lead to Auckland gridlock, home unaffordability and years of neglect in mental health. How on earth did Coleman lay straight in bed at night?, because he didn’t care.

      • So Bert your entire argument is that Labour is not as bad as National? Despite no one suggesting National did a better job?

        Whataboutisms don’t get us anywhere.

        That old 9 years trope is getting tired now that the current government are rapidly closing in on half that period with very little to show as far as improvement or changing the course.

        • So let’s see where Labour are at after 9 years. The old argument that it doesn’t matter what National did is tiresome given the after effects last for years.
          My argument is that Labour have been more effective in 4 years that National were in 9 but are still having to deal with Nationals incompetence. That is the evidence I have to use. We are seeing more and more of the type of ministers National have coming out of the woodwork, the likes of why Nick Smith Maggie Barry, were forced to leave, let alone the sex scandal ministers. Can you rebuff any of that with evidence?

      • Yes its Nationals fault Labour are incompetent, inept and out of their depth…We have a majority government, stop the damn excuses and demand better!

  4. This is the reason successive governments re-brand their departments. In other words, all human action that has been politicised (ministerially departmentalised by statism) cannot be commanded or summoned only destroyed and replaced.

    When there’s a new logo or HQ or name or CEO or ‘philosophy’ or structure in government it’s not due to some amazing new breakthrough in the science of Industrial Organisation economics. It is simply that each new government must destroy the superstructural edifice of the government that came before it and replace it with its own

  5. Every Kiwi wants to believe the MOH is full of wonderful and energetic people who keep us safe from Covid, but this is just one more example of its failures. It is chock full of ‘process people’ – their outcome is the clean, proper and recorded correctly process, not better results outside of Molesworth St.
    Add in ‘reputation management’.

    On a side note, one of the problems is over-crowding in the acute units, with a lot of people still there for a long time simply because there is no safe housing with MH support in their community.
    Problem is the RMA weaponises local objections to putting more supported living places into neighbourhoods. Local councillors hate the idea as well. Aren’t we lovely people..

    • Mental Health has been decimated by neoliberal economics, starting in the ‘eighties with the push from institutional care into “quality community care” (cough, let that sink in).
      I’m sure it’s all very reminiscent of the 16th century dissolution of the monasteries. It certainly left similar weed-choked ruins behind.
      Contrary to Martyn, I can imagine that a billion dollars is small change in what is required to rebuild and replace

  6. Good summary
    Labour can’t achieve jack shit.
    To make promises with no idea how to deliver them is blatant dishonesty.
    The government for all New Zealanders have let all New Zealanders down.

  7. Very sad! And it gets sadder because I believe you when you say that Labour will win the next election. The public don’t care.

    • Speak for your fucking self @ kraut. I’m sick of fucking wormy trolls dropping logical fallacies around like shit from a donkey. Fuck off!
      The public DO care. They, like me, as a member of the public, care hugely. You and your masters hope we don’t care while doing your best to convince us of that in what ever weasley way you can. ( No disrespect to actual weasels. )
      The public must be reminded that it is we, The Public, who are The Politic. Not politicians. That’s perhaps the greatest logical fallacy of all. That it is our politicians who run the show. Well, they are not. We are. We, who vote and pay their wages are.
      They simply manage our collective wishes and demands. Or not, as the case may be. The reason why a Wellington bureaucracy bullies Labour and by extension we, the public is because we, the public, allow the bureaucracy to bully OUR politicians. I say fuck that! And fuck the natzo’s while I’m at it !
      One of the great and insidious triumphs of the evil freak show that was roger nomics was that we were bullied into believing that political stuff just happened and we shouldn’t worry our little heads about it and just go to work, watch tv and get drunk. Well, many of us didn’t do those things. Well, I did and sometimes still do, but that’s not the point. We know what they get up to and fucks like you seep out of the woodwork to steer us into blind allies now and then but guess what? The internet bitches! Anyone can know everything.
      Labour may not know it but it’s one word away from inciting a revolution.
      Just say the word @ Labour? I think you might be surprised by the support with pitch forks you might get.

      • Dear Countryboy
        Strong language. I clearly upset you but did not mean to. The fact remains, that bar for a few caring people like you, the greater public will put this govt back in power. Not on proven performance or policy merit but on ‘likeability’ and on more false promises. “We like Jacinda” is good enough these days to win an election. Never mind the disgraceful performance in managing this country and its monies. It’s a shameful shocker what is going on. But it won’t matter. God I hope it does matter, but I fear not.

        • @ kraut.
          I’m not here to make friends. I’m here to help open doors with opinions.
          AO/NZ is in trouble and as a consequence we’re all vulnerable. I’m fucked if I’m going beige when black and white’s called for.

      • Thank you for a words of wisdom in this world of every one knows better. We are in this mess because of years of underfunding and and made worse by tax cuts from a populist government when we should have been investing that money in our children’s future such as health, housing ,education and safety. It’s sickening hearing the questions and weasel words of fake regret from the right wing politicians who take absolutely no responsibility for their past actions which has caused such heartache for so many people. This government has not even been in power for 12 months on their own majority and without NZ first and listening to Winston Peters on the weekend we all know what his thoughts are .

  8. My brother has been under our mental health people for many many years and I can tell you they are fucken useless and have been for more than 25 years. In fact if we go back we will find they have been this way since the geckgo and the Lake Alice stuff has further highlighted this. Its is very hard to fix something that has been neglected by all our governments no matter who has been in power. And to make matters worse we have a ‘P’
    epidemic in our country and we have alcohol related violence on the rise (Young Tongan RSE worker recently killed in Blenheim) And yet despite us knowing the social harm alcohol does we are opening up more and more bottle stores. When are we going to learn. Lastly we need to close our bubble to NSW now. People were warned about travelling to Aus.

    • Absolutely agree and I work in mental health. Sadly it is driven from the top down. Those at a corporate level have jobs for life. Where I work colonial immigrants have taken over at the highest level. They see themselves as elitists more worried about their title and salary, you know the types where their own shit don’t smell and have a do as I say mentality. The arrogance is nauseating. Unfortunately when reviews are done these are the people who do all the talking. It’s called job protection. Because of this, the core role of supporting those with a mental illness, get left behind and those of us supporting these people to have the best possible life they possibly can, get left kicking the van down the road.
      As an aside, the only way to fund mental health appropriately is not to fund to catch up as all government does but fund as if it is 10 years into the future. It’s the ONLY way to counter immigration.

  9. This comes down to Little. Only a sanctimonious prick moans about the ministry when the control and monitoring of this funding is under your control. Asleep at the wheel of the Titanic.

    Luckily for the Blairite and him the sheeple are still in their covid, housing inflation delusion bubble.

    • Yes Little needs to and must fund the health system by billions!
      Because this came down to Nationals and Colemans abject failure to spend, they were the iceberg that hit the Titanic even with Key driving. Sadly the sheeple did not see because of the Christchurh earthquake and the kimjohnkeyite was very fortunate as he opened the borders to thousands.

      • So Bertie we are closing in 5 years since National have been in government – when will your side accept ANY responsibility for poor policy and implementation.

        • Little has, he is obviously pissed and is now asking why things haven’t been implemented. What do you expect him to do, know there’s failure before the event. I say failure because unlike your lot, at least he’s at least attempting Frankie

  10. Frank the Titanic sunk a long time ago as did our mental health care. In fact I shudder to call it care more like mental health abuse. We simply don’t have the right people or enough expertise and like our lack of builders, trades people, engineers, clinicians, chefs, nurses, teachers, bus drivers etc this will take some time. In the mean time we need to work on prevention.

    • The voting public will decide Kraut, as they did to oust the do nothing National government whom, to use John’s words, did jack shit for 99% of the country. Remember when Key was asked what his legacy would be? He replied not getting the flag changed!
      Fuck the homeles, those with a mental illness,those in poverty , those who can’t afford to buy their own home, fuck em all, I’m sorry about the flag!!!

      • Bert, the unavoidable take out from this is once an announcement was made to substantially increase mental health funding by the government, not a soul in the Labour caucus nor cabinet thought to monitor progress, ask their ministry give a progress report, or anything. Certainly not the relevant minister, be it Clark in or Little and definitely not the Prime Minister.

        People are literally dying because these morons think all there is to been in government is to make the funding available and a grand announcement without ever taking the slightest bit of interest afterwards.

        Be it housing, light rail, walking bridges across the Waitemata, or even monitoring where 11 cents per litre of fuel goes when Auckland Council siphon it off, this Labour government have proven totally incompetent.

        It’s so sad this say this but I am rapidly losing any faith in them!

        • Whilst I agree, have you asked the question of what has been implemented? Many are bandwagon jumpers stating nothing has been done. Many things have been set up, councilors in school, increased FTE’s in mental health etc, however the issue is all we are doing is catching up on the last 12 years. So whilst we are painting over cracks there’s a long way to go. For the Frankie’s Mickey-s and John’s of this forumn I openly invite you to spend a day with me supporting those in mental health. You may learn a thing or two.

      • “Fuck the homeles, those with a mental illness,those in poverty , those who can’t afford to buy their own home, fuck em all”

        Yet all those measures have significantly worsened under our sides watch. Keep deflecting though Bertie boy. Maybe we will truly be transformational and deliver next term right?…

        • Can you provide evidence Mickey on “all those measures” MickeyBoyle ? Or do you just make comments with your left eye continually closed? Critical thinking escapes you.

    • That doesn’t excuse gross incompetence and laziness. $2B was pledged a couple of years ago and the best we get from the Prime Minister and minister in charge is “I Dunno”.

      • Your words Frankie, your words. Show me where our P.M. said that?
        Actually if you listened to her yesterday you would have been educated on where the money has been spent but you have such a closed mind I doubt you’ll ever hear.

        • Both the PM and Little had no real idea regarding funding until they had a session with their spin doctors. Apparently its all committees, rollouts and in progress infrastructure. LOL.

          It 12 months time when nothing has changed – what then. And we all know it won’t. Accept your team yet again has tits for hands when it comes to implementation of policy.

          • Your comments continue on the dramatical side rather factual. I’d rather a committee than the autocracy of National where many a policy was passed in the early hours of the morning.

          • Again you haven’t shown me where they said that, just some more of your ramblings about mysterious homeless spin doctors?

  11. Even the most cynical, and doubting of our esteemed Editor’s take on this must admit that the neo liberal bureaucracy is rogering the Labour Govt. The Deputy PM has had to set up an “Implementation Unit” fer crissakes!

    The more vulnerable people are ignored the more suffering there will be, cops will step in and bash and taser when people act out and more young people will suicide. There is literally blood on the hands of public servants who have thwarted the spending of the $1.9bill.

    Direct action from the people is the only thing that will enable the Govt. to overrule the State Sector. Mike King did lead by example in handing back his medal. DHB and Ministry offices need ongoing “mattress” protests and barricades–super glue locks, visit their homes with over the top crazy protests until some action is taken–another inquiry will not, read my lips NOT do it.

    • Or it could be that this government and it’s ministers are incompetent. Ministers have control. This is another case of asleep at the wheel.

      • So give me the names of people whom you see could do a better job, bearing in mind not one from the previous National coalition were competent and in fact many deserted a sunk ship?

        • Anybody…..the answer is anybody Bert. When do you accept shamozzle after shamozzle is actually on your team?

          • When your party is a basket case and you highlight them as the saviour, it says more about you than anyone else Frankie.

      • You mean like the standard of competence like Smith, Brownstains, Woodlouse Falloon,Hamish Walker, Maggie Barry, Sarah Dowie, Jamie Lee Ross,Coleman, Bennett, Joyce etc etc. Yep Frankie top class National ministers, top class!

        • LOL all could do a better job than Little here. If it wasn’t for the feckless ones running a protection screen this would be the scandal of the year. Less than $1m of $2B of spending.

          Little should resign out of embarrassment however the entitled prick won’t

          • Anyone of the above mentioned?, my God Frankie you need a straight Jacket! No you really do!
            I see your standard of person is set, you have no hope. You and Fallon should share a room.

  12. Right on the button Martyn.
    I have been in the Lower Hutt facility for visits
    The tv/ common room has urine infused carpet- disgusting for patients and visitors alike . Yet a new facility won’t change this – it’s the indifferent attitude towards mental health patients that is the problem – they are given a revolting place to “relax” in . I treat my dog better

  13. Oh my God. You must to read this.
    The Guardian.
    “US military training manual describes socialism as ‘terrorist ideology’ – report”
    On one page of the document, in a section titled Study Questions, the question is asked: “Anarchists, socialists and neo-Nazis represent which terrorist ideological category?”
    “The news is likely to come as a surprise to some of the increasingly popular mainstream US politicians who identify as democratic socialists, such as the former presidential candidate and Vermont senator Bernie Sanders and the star of the Democratic party’s left, New York congresswoman Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez.”
    Since I’m piss poorly educated I was until recently ignorant of the nuances of democratic politics.
    I thought ” Democracy=people able to vote to have choices.” How wrong I was.
    Democracies are merely the scaffolding of a politic. The substance of that scaffolding is comprised of those who want to influence that political scaffolding to best benefit themselves.
    Capitalists, aka arse holes, want whats theirs and yours too. Socialists want to make sure everyone’s ok because socialists selfishly know that it’s easier to live in a fair and sharing society because no one’s going to break into your house and rip your shit off to buy P or groceries. Socialists selfishly understand that it’s much easier and more pleasant to live within communities that are happy, safe, comfortable and secure. I know, because I grew up in such a society then went through dirty little roger douglas’s neoliberalism.
    Capitalists understand the selfish sentiments of socialists because selfish socialist’s happily pay taxes to make sure they, like everyone gets an education has access to quality housing, health and dental and can hop on a train or bus to go shopping and run errands. Cars are only used by the selfish socialists to go on holiday, to cruise beautiful AO/NZ or to go out in style in of an evening.
    Wonderful capitalists however are far more giving. To themselves. Because capitalism is all about the self, the capitalist devotes themselves to gathering about them the money of others to keep within them selves and they use that money to make sure that the ones they’ve taken it from can never get it back. Just look at our tax system? It will fuck you if you don’t pay GST but it’ll reward you if you can ‘claim’ it back. Capitalism is all about about ego plus greed and powered up by narcissistic psychopathy added to a misplaced sense of entitlement.
    The only protection the common selfish socialist had against the wonderful, giving and ever creative capitalists was unionism.
    We gathered together and said ” We’re mad as Hell and we’re not going to take this anymore”
    Luckily, neoliberalism came along and squashed the unions into the dirt the capitalist all bought and paid for MSM ground them down in to.
    And now? We have record breaking incarceration rates, for Maori particularly, we have unprecedented levels of homelessness and poverty and from that we get societal dysfunction including alcoholism, street drug addictions, ( and prescription meds addictions too. ) suicides and mental health dis-eases from living in terminal misery leading to self-hate, fear, anxiety, and self destructive mindsets that lead to crimes which impact on others.
    So yeah! Go Capitalism! Down with commie Socialism. ( Explainer. Communism IS NOT socialism dumb asses. In fact, when analysed, communism has more in common with fascism than anything else. )
    ( I’m taking a legal testosterone powder supplement I imported to give me pep in my dotage. My dear sweet Jesus! It sure did. Any more pep and I could be plugged into the national grid. So apols for foaming rantings…)

    • “( Explainer. Communism IS NOT socialism dumb asses. …)”
      – True

      “(….In fact, when analysed, communism has more in common with fascism than anything else. )”
      – Not really. Utopian communism has no role for the “state”. Fascism can’t exist without it and a command structure.

    • One of several important Metrics we should be tracking, pretty obvious Little had zero idea of what was going on in his own protfolio

  14. “National got shit done because the Wellington bureaucracy was frightened of them”.. And how many of those senior bureaucrats were actually in sync with the nats policies? How many were specifically put there because they had the “right attitude” to the abuses and inhumanity of the Key/English /Richardson years? How much “advice” they give their minister is a pile of shit?
    What’s the point of quoting Robert Reid if there is no exploration of ALL the ramifications of his statement?
    What I do know, is that there are a percentage of senior managers in the ministries that are actively sabotaging anything the current admin sets out to do, which has been alluded to on this site.. Where is that fact in the mix?
    I’ve heard far too much shallow, reactive assumption being put forward as gospel since being back this time around… It’s both disappointing, and self defeating… Right now, all I’m seeing is a large percentage of the electorate talking themselves into reinstalling the tories for another round of fleecing the population of it’s ability to have a reasonable quality of life… Sigh…

  15. Personality politics is the problem in both National and local politics . Whether it be John Key or Jacinda Ardern how many actually look past them to see how they will vote. 4 years ago Labour changed leaders but little policy and the result was a resounding victory. While personnal I think Judith Collins would be a good leader but I am realistic enough that Labour will need to make some monumental mistakes to change peoples vote but they do seem to be trying hard.

  16. My brother in law was with us for years and needed a lot of mental health support. The front-line workers cannot be faulted its just that they didnt have more than 24 hours in their day or more than 7 days in their week to cope with their work. They have also never have enough beds for all their patients. A mental health worker must have the most stressful job you can find. I think the government must train more professional and front-line staff. I know Labour are doing their best to provide good mental health facilities and services – $1,9 billion is a good start.

    I wouldnt trust the Natz as they cut back on public services. Natz dont give a shit about the disabled, mental health, homeless, unemployed, Maori, Asian, beneficiaries. Let the Natz look after the property speculators as they did in their last stint in govt. They achieved zero in that time.

    Aotearoa is the safest and most free and democratic country in the world. So let us rejoice.

    • Nikorima, you have just outlined the issues perfectly. As a mental health worker, everything you say is correct. National were happy to invest in property speculators, yet denigrated our own health services at the same time. Labour are at least trying to rectify this and whilst I admire Mike Kings stance, fixing mental health infrastructure will take time. Building a solid bridge does not happen overnight, building a collapsed bridge takes longer.

  17. Labour have looked after the property speculators better than any government in New Zealand’s history?
    The statistics are in the public domain.

    • Copy and paste John or get someone with an IQ higher than Zero to assist you. Dont be sad John, now about sending me that link?

  18. This article implies that only money spent from the initial fund is the 5 acute beds. That is wholly incorrect. Considerable investment has been put into primary care for mild to moderate mental health. This is the fence at the top of cliff so you don’t need so many ambulances at the bottom. Of course you won’t see the result of this immediately but it the right approach to take.

  19. Bert,
    Cut and paste not my thing which I’m sure has little or nothing to do with my IQ.
    Go into any reputable house price movements site and look for annual increases since records began.
    Think you’ll find the speculators have done spectacularly well under the Ardern Labour Government.
    It’s in the papers on the radio and television almost daily.
    To deny this is disingenuous.
    But ones politics tends to colour ones opinion.

    • “But ones politics tends to colour ones opinion.”

      Which is where you sit John, as well as being highly disingenuous. Now for the last time show me the evidence if you can.
      As an aside tell me why you think National would do any better since they were responsible for putting N.Z. knee deep in the crap.


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