Imagine the uproar if any other Political Party self censored the way the Greens just did

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Greens members leave after ‘transphobic’ article in magazine

The Green Party has caused outrage and debate among its members by publishing an article criticising the party’s push for trans rights in its official magazine.

The article, written by long-time Green Party member Jill Abigail, appeared in the latest edition of party publication Te Awa and said some “older feminists” within the party were concerned the party was putting gender identity over the rights of biological women.

Abigail was particularly critical of MP Jan Logie’s comments in a previous issue that: “We continue to push for progress on LGBTQI+ freedoms, and resist the backlash that’s trying to undermine our trans and gender diverse whanau and roll back their hard-won rights”.

“I am a lesbian, supposedly under their umbrella, but I am part of the backlash,” Abigail wrote.

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She said while trans people were vulnerable and “justly” claiming their right to equal treatment, the free speech of those who opposed “male-bodied trans women” entering “female-only spaces” was being shut down with accusations of hate speech.

The article was taken down after about a week, following a series of complaints by members.

Online, various party members described the article as transphobic and some have gone as far as to call it hate speech.

I read Jill Abigail’s column in Te Awa when it first came out a couple of weeks ago and I was pleasantly surprised that the Greens had the maturity to publish a critical opinion of one of the alienating middle class woke mantras and that it was a break through in a pure temple culture war.

How silly I was.

Instead of respecting a difference of opinion and allowing the debate, the Green Leadership along with an online woke social media lynch mob threatened the independent editorship of Te Awa and forced them to remove the opinion piece because it was supposedly ‘hate speech’ against the Trans community.

Instead of breaking free from the intellectual self censorship that is puritan Millennial micro-aggression policing Identity Politics culture,  the Greens doubled down and just forced the opinion piece off a platform that is supposedly editorially independent of the Party.

Imagine the backlash that would occur if that was done by any other political party?

The Greens are receiving a get out of jail free pass on this because many of the Millennials staffing newsrooms agree with the self censorship in part because they are terrified of questioning any element of the trans mantra as well. They are all aware that Wellington Twitteratti have set up secret Facebook pages that list any media person or gender critical activist as a TERF and they actively engage to ensure those people are blacklisted from jobs.

For the record, I’m kinda old fashioned when it comes to this issue. I believe the journey to be comfortable in your own skin is one of the most sacred paths of the human experience. To my mind the idea that there is a range of gender within the spectrum of humanity, that there are men trapped inside womens bodies, women trapped inside mens bodies, people who feel both genders and some who feel none, is as uncontroversial as the range of skin, hair or eye colour.

It would be cruel in the extreme to not respect a persons wishes to be called the name they want or identify with or the pronoun they wish to be identified with or the gender they wish to be identified with.

For my part I have no issue with any trans person sharing private space with me, and I believe the discrimination against their community is appalling.

However. As a white heteronormative cis-male, I also believe you can’t force women to accept Transwomen into their spaces. Telling women who they must and must not include in the spaces they have fought for seems utterly contrary to respecting feminism.

Apparently that position makes me transphobic.

I believe the debate has become so feral and so vicious online that people are now too frightened to have an opinion on the issue in case they are attacked by Green activists on a woke rampage.

This is ultimately a political danger to the Greens.  This is Jill Abigail’s column, and 90% of NZers reading her column would see a very reasonable, very balanced discussion critical of some of the claims being made by Gender Binary activists and their Fourth Wave feminist enablers. The shock wave comes when that 90% hear that Green activists online are claiming this is an example of hate speech, because Abigail’s column may be many things,  but hate speech it is not.

That 90% will look at what the Greens are claiming is hate speech and recoil at the low, low, low threshold the Greens are setting that standard at. With debate over Hate speech due before the election, the looming danger is the Green Woke Activists will alienate just enough voters to sink under 5% without ever recognising that they are the ones who will end the Party.

The Leadership are held hostage by this clique and have only managed to empower these activists by demanding the removal of the opinion piece.

Meanwhile the planet is melting and the Greens are once again tripping over their own virtue signalling.

40 COMMENTS

  1. Jill Abigail’s column is mild and reasonably asks for the Greens to stop vilifying/censoring of GC (gender critical) feminists. How sad that they are too gutless/bullied/ideological to protect basic democratic freedoms.

    As I said on twitter, TRAs (trans rights activists) see GCs as hateful bigots; GCs think that TRAs are mad ideologues wiuth no regard for biology or women’s rights.

    GC feminists are right to express concern about TRA behaviour and excesses. In years to come it’s going to be exposed as another Unfortunate Experiment

    (the original Unfortunate experiment put hundreds of Kiwi women at risk of cervical cancer)

    • Rob, yourname links back to your Twitter account and shows you to be a fundamentalist Christian.

      What are your views on gays and lesbians?

  2. Sad.

    Also when you can buy Green voting rights and membership for circa $5, in the age of dirty politics how many of these so called woke members constantly venting rampantly on micro identity issues in particular Trans, are actually real Greens, or are they in the age of Thompson and Clark infiltration tactics, a strategy?

    Is this trans obsession, just another right wing trolling mechanism to scare and make uncomfortable Green members who don’t feel the same way (aka the Lesbian community) or the mainstream that quite frankly couldn’t care one way or the other what sexuality anybody is.

    Meanwhile in a few years another native species is wiped out without any real effort to stop it, more natural assets given away or sold off, more pollution, more trade deals signed that make saving the environment and democracy at the mercy of offshore legal challenge.

    Demographics changed so much that there is a point of no return as you can already buy an MP seat cheaply with a $100k donation and get council officials on side with similar deals and trips… so democracy here is already clearly for sale in NZ and there is a tipping point where power gets to a point where there is no contention… especially when traditional parties like the Greens are constantly tied up with cunts and trans rights making headlines and traditional Green issues falling by the way side or inexplicably being changed aka ok for water bottle sales to offshore firms now from the Greens instead of changing the law and banning it, now they are in power.

    • It’s a good question (are some of these micro bigots plants) but I’d say just look and listen to Marama Davidson, this is what these people do, they don’t need any help to turn on anyone/each other.
      When they treat each other like this, how do they treat the great non green NZ public they are supposed to serve?
      Hate speech laws will be the demise of the greens and possibly determine the election.

      The party is unfit to govern.
      The Nats have been proven right about that.

      • BTW I am not suggesting the Green Party MP’s are ‘plants’, but am suggesting that they could be influenced by others working for the other side as volunteers or there have even been cases of relationships while spying and reporting on their victims. It’s pretty disgusting stuff, but is actually still in use.

        Voting for the MP lists could have been skewed, for example, voting for people who are going to be very polarising personalities or inexperienced, high into the list while ensuring that very effective people who are more likely to organise and get things done, are lower down.

        Then there are those harassed out of parliament aka Russel Norman and Metiria Turei.

        • Then the fall out, Kennedy Graham and David Clendon.

          WTF what happened to the Green Party being the most trusted to mind your children???

          Now for what ever reason, many Greens can’t get along, because in my view, of the polarising aspects of identity politics over taking, what used to be the Green Party, aka different people who were allowed to be different and not a hot topic of who should be elevated into the main focus aka Maori vs Pakeha, Transgender vs Lesbian, millennial vs boomers, landlords vs tenants.

          Previously when they were popular they did not focus on identity and just worked together on common interests like the environment for the benefit of all… and let the minority parties be more of an identity or class focus aka socialism party, Maori party,

          The more you narrow people into the groups of better/worse the more you create disharmony and jettison supporters, as well as removing other smaller parties that could align with them who do focus on identity and thus are always going to struggle to achieve a 5% party vote.

          Win win for right wingers with left focus of division and identity politics.

          • “Transgender vs Lesbian”

            Rubbish. The majority of lesbians are not anti-transgender at all. The GCF/Terfs are a minority.

            You create division where it exists only in small part.

            “Win win for right wingers with left focus of division and identity politics.”

            In case you’ve missed it, this is a LEFT WING blogsite and the anti-trans comments are coking from supposedly leftwing commenters. Own it, whoever you are, this fracture is between progressives within the LGBT community and a tiny minority of TERFs, plus reactionary leftists.

            It has nothing to do with the Right. Not this time.

  3. Martyn, let me take you up on your comments.

    “Instead of respecting a difference of opinion and allowing the debate, the Green Leadership along with an online woke social media lynch mob threatened the independent editorship of Te Awa and forced them to remove the opinion piece because it was supposedly ‘hate speech’ against the Trans community.”

    I read the (hopefully) same article. In my view it verged pretty much into hate speech territory. Many of JA’s comments were gross generalisation – prejudice in other words. Far from based on “facts”, they were highly personalized views, very few flattering to transwomen.

    “Imagine the backlash that would occur if that was done by any other political party?”

    Imagine the backlash if instead of focusing on transwomen, it targetted gays, lesbians, Maori, cis women, etc.

    “For my part I have no issue with any trans person sharing private space with me, and I believe the discrimination against their community is appalling.”

    Good!

    “However. As a white heteronormative cis-male, I also believe you can’t force women to accept Transwomen into their spaces. Telling women who the must and must not include in the spaces they have fought for seems utterly contrary to respecting feminism.”

    NOT GOOD! Excuse me, but newsflash coming: are you aware that women are not some collective Hive Mind with the same views? Your implication that all women think along the same lines as TERFs isn’t just misguided, it’s incredibly patronising.

    There are many women, straight, lesbian, bisexual, non-gender specific, who hold no issue with transwomen sharing our spaces. And if you really think that “Telling women who the must and must not include in the spaces they have fought for seems utterly contrary to respecting feminism” – well, maybe you can kindly butt out then?

    Whether the Greens decide to publish JA’s article is up to them. If you’re so hot on free speech advocacy, let’s see you publish blogposts from the Right, the far-right, gun nuts, neo nazis, etc. Put your money where your mouth is.

    I CHALLENGE YOU TO DO THAT!

    Otherwise, it’s their magazine and their decision. YOU don’t get to have a say on that.

    • So here’s my problem. Every once and awhile I organize events, help run events and promote junior rugby because I love the sport all the time.

      One of the really tricky things to do is work with kids as a promoter because there is never enough kids and you never know who’s showing up. Normally what happens is you hope for a good turn out and separate them as well as you can by height and weight and then you take into consideration the gender.

      Now age and weight is pretty straight forward, and then theres gender because that’s a tricky one because you always wish that more girls would show up so they’re split up as best that can be done.

      Normally up to 10 years old I’d say that there’s very little difference between genders, even up to 12 it’s not to bad. By the time they’re 14-15, it’s always really unfortunate when you have to put girls and boys together. When I’m promoting events I always feel really bad that that IS the case or that that HAS to be that way, I would much prefer that more girls show up a heck of a lot more. But unfortunately this is the reality for the youth divisions.

      Now there’s something going on with sports world wide at the moment which I really have a massive problem with. And to backtrack I am with the Trans activist, I believe that we should have the third toilet. So the reason that gender is becoming an issue. First I don’t believe that this is cultural because it’s to do with this magical thing called puberty.

      Puberty is a time when a lot of athletic gifts are bestowed onto males specifically in combative sports for example Rugby. Males get gifted a whole lot of extra things, Y’know strength speed, height, aggression, and lung capacity. It’s just that dudes get gifted a lot of advantages that are typically hard to get around.

      So when you’re running events you’ll have amateur divisions, pro divisions, gender and weight categories and so on. But it is always the right for the littler people to go up in weight and height divisions say if you’re an Arron Smith type or Irene Vandike type at 13 years old, 5foot nothing and weighing in at nothing. It’s your right to go up in weight and play against the best and kick ass.

      Let’s say you’re a kick ass woman and you want to beat up guys then that is your right so long as you make the weight category just as woman are protected from the men’s classes and lighter is protected from the heavier classes.

      I’v gotten a lot of messages saying that because a transgender athlete will be competing that girls won’t show up. I don’t hold a lot of events but when I do I welcome everyone Y’know I want any one and every one to come to my events and I’m happy when anyone enjoys themselves and supports the sport or supports what ever else. And I believe that people should be supported in life to be what ever anything that they want.

      How ever when a biological male goes through puberty, I don’t think that there is any scenario in the future when a male that has not completed transition surgery should compete against woman. It doesn’t matter if they’ve done hormones or what ever, it can not be considered a fair playing field.

      So I don’t know what the answer is, maybe you’re a man transitioning to a woman or a woman transitioning to a man and are in the process of a medical transition (surgery). I think that they should privately choose opponents and advance there sport or what ever that way or hopefully there’s enough numbers in your area to start a class or division of your own until the transition is fully completed, or not. But once the transition is fully completed I haven’t heard anyone who has had any problems competing with what is for all intense and purposes a woman or a man, in this case who has fully transitioned.

      I think that this is all very unfortunate. I think that it is wrong, I think that it is very wrong because I wouldn’t want my girls to compete against a biological male. I wouldn’t want any woman to do it under any circumstances. Anyways, Good Vibez.

    • This right here is the issue:

      “There are many women, straight, lesbian, bisexual, non-gender specific, who hold no issue with transwomen sharing our spaces. And if you really think that “Telling women who the must and must not include in the spaces they have fought for seems utterly contrary to respecting feminism” – well, maybe you can kindly butt out then?”

      Biological females are not saying they don’t have an issue sharing spaces. What they are saying is that there are Mistows such as Jonathan Yaniv who are nothing more than troublemakers. The GID movement has allowed Mistows to jump on this bandwagon and push it for all it’s worth.

      I do have issue with Mistows forcing their way into female toilets, female changing rooms etc, and flashing their genitals which they derive a perverted pleasure from. Men who expose their genitals to young female children would see them arrested, but when they’re Mistows it’s fine? Yeah nah.

      Further to that, GID does not allow for open airing of concerns from affected parties. Anyone who rationally questions the belief of the movement is met with a stream of invective vitriol, rather than a proper debate. Rather than shutting down Jill’s piece, the Greens should have allowed a right of reply to a transgender woman – and not from the likes of Scout Barber either. The fact they did not do so, indicates that there are no Mistows willing to engage in a rational debate.

      Further to that, lesbians want to sleep with biological women. It is who they are chemically, pheromonically and biologically attracted to. A Mistow who gets angry that a lesbian won’t sleep with him because he still has a penis, starts ranting, rather than accepting he simply doesn’t have a vagina and therefore a large part of what creates sexual attraction is not there.

      Likewise, a Wistow that gets upset a gay man won’t sleep with her, isn’t anything to write home about. Gay men prefer penis, not vagina.

      None of this is transphobic. To say that it is utterly denies the reality of sexual attraction. Who are these Mistows and Wistows to tell women and men that despite having their biological organs intact, they are the opposite sex and cry transphobia when the biological man or woman declines?

      The forcing upon young children of the “change your GID” is likewise shocking. Some boys like pink and playing with dolls. What a surprise. It doesn’t mean they are, or want to be, women. It simply means they like playing with dolls and the colour pink.

      GID should be banned from even being explored as an option for anyone younger than 16 imo. Kids like the one in Texas whose mother tried to beat the gay away, and who is now being dressed like a girl when in all likelihood he’s just a gay man, will suffer serious mental health issues as an adult.

      That’s the issue. Your response feeds directly into the so called TERFs issue that there is no rational debate happening in this sphere. We are all being told Mistows and Wistows are what they say they are, so all the biological differences should be entirely ignored. If you don’t ignore them, you’re transphobic.

      No thanks.

      • “Further to that, lesbians want to sleep with biological women. It is who they are chemically, pheromonically and biologically attracted to.”

        Well, thank you Mr Cis Male for saying who I should have a relationship with. Nice to know my life path and partner decisions have all been mapped out by unknown men.

        Just FYI, I sleep with who I want, not who you think I should. Mind your own patriarchal business!

        • Lol.
          How self righteous “we” have become.
          Assuming “we” is “us” and whoever “us” is depends on labour/green ideology on the day.
          What a joke.

      • “I do have issue with Mistows forcing their way into female toilets, female changing rooms etc, and flashing their genitals which they derive a perverted pleasure from. Men who expose their genitals to young female children would see them arrested, but when they’re Mistows it’s fine? Yeah nah.”

        You have created a bogus scenario that does not exist. I am calling you out for sheer fear mongering, utterly misrepresenting transgender people. Nothing of the sort you describe has happened. Just as decriminalisation of male homosexuality has not led to the corruption of innocent cis het young men.

        “Further to that, lesbians want to sleep with biological women. It is who they are chemically, pheromonically and biologically attracted to. ”

        Thank you for your permission. (Yeah nah. Not that I care a shit who you think I should sleep with.)

        Another cis male ally to TERFs who totally doesn’t get it.

    • Priss. I don’t understand why you obviously believe you have the right to express your thoughts and opinions on this issue and Jill Abigail does not.

      A cynical person might suspect that the censoring and de-platforming of those women who are demanding more in depth discussion on the boundaries of sex and gender indicates desperation from those who insist that a biological male who feels like a woman, is a woman. Perhaps you and your friends fear that your claims won’t withstand the rigours of free and open discussion?

    • Jill Abigail shared her opinion, as you have shared yours. It’s part of the range of opinions. Why would you want to narrow what people can see and read?
      You’re offended?
      So?
      She was not inciting violence to anything other than different opinions – and she has that right.

      “There are many women, straight, lesbian, bisexual, non-gender specific, who hold no issue with transwomen sharing our spaces.” True.
      And there are many who are very UNcomfortable. Who do have an issue with. Now what?

      One thing she has done is stir up the mud at the bottom of the ‘feminist’ tank. There are some VERY nasty censorious and hypocritical critters in that primeval soup. Attack without warning, too.
      ‘Oh wad some Pow’r the giftie gie us, to see oorsels as ithers see us.’

      Personally, my opinion, the Greens need a darned good shake up. They’ve lost the plot; become a cliche-y mess and aren’t worth voting for (apart from that bloke who was in support of tiny houses. He’s OK – so far.)

  4. Forgot to add: there is so much wrong with JA’s article that a first year journo student could pick it apart. Anyone who gives it uncritical credence is not doing the trans issue any justice.

  5. I am an oldish, plain white, fairly normal male, so my opinion here is probably not wanted and is irrelevant anyhow. Well every vote is relevant , so listen. I was once a member of the Greens in the days when Jeanette Fitzsimons was co leader of a party that was relatively sane.
    I have read only bits of each comment here because they seem to be in some foreign language and are totally unreadable. Do these people know what they are doing? Who in their right mind would vote for them? I can only watch in horror as what was once a reasonable Party slides into oblivion and another 9 years of National rule looms ahead.

    • On to it @bonash. A chick with a dick is just that. A bloke who insists he’s transitioning to womanhood but still has his prick? Not in my dunny mate!
      When staying with Sydney mates over the years who always have so many friends who are going thru the hell of gobbling hormones and transitioning to womanhood, I have never been able to figure out why anyone who wasn’t biologically female would want the hormonal nightmare most women endure when menstruating and then when experiencing menopause.Why the fuck would you want to feel the shit we feel??? It takes a lifetime to decipher it and it’s always changing.

    • bonash: “I have read only bits of each comment here because they seem to be in some foreign language and are totally unreadable. Do these people know what they are doing? Who in their right mind would vote for them? I can only watch in horror as what was once a reasonable Party slides into oblivion and another 9 years of National rule looms ahead.”

      I completely agree. I’m obviously the wrong – er – demographic, but: what the hell are mistows and wistows? Some sort of acronym, I’m assuming.

      Martyn: “To my mind the idea that there is a range of gender within the spectrum of humanity, that there are men trapped inside womens bodies, women trapped inside mens bodies, people who feel both genders and some who feel none, is as uncontroversial as the range of skin, hair or eye colour.”

      I have a longstanding interest in biology; much of my education was in that area. I’ve long known that sex isn’t necessarily straightforwardly male/female. It tends to be more like a spectrum, dependent upon genetic inheritance interacting with the environment. Though most of us are unequivocally one or the other. Throughout human existence, this has doubtless been so.

      If there’s been a significant rise in children questioning their gender, that’s unlikely to be biology, and more likely to be mental health issues. We have an extended family member who has Body Dysmorphia Syndrome; in my view, this syndrome – or something similar – likely drives much of that current increase.

      The greens are a lost cause, have been for some time now. They’ll be out of government – and hopefully out of parliament – at the next election.

      • Fact Check. They are not in government now. They support the coalition.

        Assertion Check – you have no knowledge of the next election result.

        • SPC: “They are not in government now. They support the coalition.”

          Ha! Nobody told them; contrary to your assertion, they evidently believe that they’re in government. See this:

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Party_of_Aotearoa_New_Zealand#The_Green_Party_in_Government

          “In October 2017, the Greens entered a confidence and supply arrangement with the Labour Party which gives them three ministers outside cabinet and one under secretary role.[73] This marks the first time the Greens have been in government.[74] Party leader James Shaw was appointed Minister for Climate Change and Statistics and Associate Minister of Finance. Julie Anne Genter was made Minister for Women and Associate Minister of Health and Transport. Eugenie Sage was made Minister of Conservation and Land Information and Associate Minister for the Environment. Jan Logie was appointed Parliamentary Undersecretary to the Minister of Justice Andrew Little with a focus on domestic and sexual violence issues.[75]”

          “Assertion Check – you have no knowledge of the next election result.”

          Dreams are free….

  6. For heavens sake we are talking about sharing space that we do in our own homes.
    The greens need to grow up.

    Given the collapse of the Simon Bridges “send up” nothing surprises me about the greens.

    The greens are their own worst enemies. The other parties know and relish it.

    I am waiting to see/hear hat they have to say about public breast feeding of babies. Apparently some people are offended by it, for reasons that escape me.

    • Farewell to the kudzu and knotweed…?

      If only they could separate themselves from ‘issues’ and ’causes’ at the activist level and realise that they’re in politics now. You know – the level above, where they actually work to solve problems through legislation instead of hissing and ranting. Otherwise, who’s going to take the crafted work of the activists and present it for consideration by Parliament?

      Not this lot. Unfortunately.

  7. No surprise: It pays to read the ingredient on the label

    These loons were always going to turn on each other over angels dancing on pinheads or something.

  8. I completely agree and it’s a relief to read this on the Daily Blog. I thought the entire Left in NZ had gone woke.

  9. Excellent article Martyn. Jill Abigail’s article was very reasonable indeed, but some people have lowered the bar of ‘hate speech’ so far as to make the term just a form of insult and means to shut down debate.

    Your point about a layer of transactivists and their supporters trying to get people fired and disciplined – there are several such cases in NZ at present – indicates a new McCarthyism. It needs to be strongly resisted.

    We put up Jill Abigail’s article on Redline after it was censored by the Greens’ leadership. We’re with Rosa Luxemburg: “Freedom is always the freedom of dissenters”.

    We now have a substantial body of gender-critical material up on Redline:
    https://rdln.wordpress.com/2019/07/26/gender-critical-material-on-redline/

  10. Jeez Wayne. I thought the greens were supposed to be environmentalists not transvestites. Stick to your knitting Greens.

    • It’s TRANSGENDER. Not “transvestite”.

      Try learning proper terminology before demanding others take up knitting (a sexist reference, by the way).

  11. Ok, I’m done here. Can’t be bothered anymore. I have too much prejudice in my life to have to deal with this crap as well.

    If these comments from transphobes were what you were looking for Martyn, congrats. You got your wish.

    Do me a favour tho, next time stay the fuck away from the next Pride March. You may be welcomed by a few, but the majority won’t want a bar of you.

    • Kia ora Jane.

      When TDB published a press release from Gender Critical feminists late last year, I received 4 threats against my daughter for the mere publication of it from your trans comrades. I’m well aware of the threats your community hand out with glee.

      I am a huge supporter of the pride parade, was at the very first one in the 90s, but I chose to avoid the abortion it became this year because of the woke pride parade board. Your pure temple over broadchurch approach builds none of the inclusion that has been the strength of the rainbow community. Last year Pride was 30 000 strong, this year barely 2500. I imagine you see that as a victory.

      The hyper militant manner in which you wish to debate this issue will be a difficult one for mainstream NZ to recognise and support.

      Good luck to you with that.

      • Kia ora Martyn

        First of all, if you received threats towards your family in response to posting an article on your site, that is completely unacceptable, and people acting in that way (be they trans folks or cis allies) goes completely against what many trans folks (myself included) would expect of those within our communities.

        In terms of the article being published, I don’t have any issue with a political party magazine/forum allowing its members to express views that debate mainstream views or norms. And, as a trans person myself, the backlash to Te Awa publishing that article seemed unneeded and counterproductive. I’d have much rather seen an MP or staffer within the Green Party publishing a response justifying how their policies on issues around the inclusion of trans people in society fit with their Party’s values and are good for New Zealand as a whole.

        On Jill Abigail’s piece itself, it seems to parrot many other opinion pieces over the last couple years by those with trans exclusionary or ‘gender critical’ views. It argues against inclusion of trans people in society based on some ‘threat’ they pose, without offering any substantive evidence to demonstrate that threat is sufficient to justify restricting trans folks’ access to basic services and their rights. In this, it feels akin to arguments heard in decades past against women being integrated in the workplace, or Jim Crow era discrimination seeking to justify segregation of black people.

        There are cases where selective and limited discrimination in relation to trans person’s rights can be justified (accessing shelters, prisons, some sports categories). But in all examples, these are policies which should be applied selectively on a case by case basis, and on the basis of the underlying threat/risk itself. Not on the basis of that persons’ trans identity.

        For example, a women’s shelter should be able to discriminate access to a person with a background of sexual or violent behaviour/convictions regardless of whether that person is trans, cis, or genderqueer. A sporting body should be able to discriminate in limited cases where allowing access to someone significantly heavier/stronger than the rest of the competition poses safety risks to other participants. A women’s prison should have controls in place to ensure that those with sexual/violent behaviour and convictions do not become a risk to the rest of the prison population, and should have their prison transfer requests adequately scrutinised.

        But these kinds of discussions need nuance, evidence and rational debate – not typecasting of a group of people based on their identity. Katelyn Burns (a trans journalist in Washington DC) had a good article in Vox a couple days ago that runs through some of currents to trans-exclusionary views that touches on these arguments. https://www.vox.com/identities/2019/9/5/20840101/terfs-radical-feminists-gender-critical

        And on a personal level, I’d relate Jill Abigail’s article to my own experience transitioning over the last ~four years. In the early days of transition – I was more ‘male bodied’ as TERFS would like to allege; and I now pass very comfortably and would likely have most of my cis-women friends beat me in an arm-wrestle. But throughout all that time – I have remained the same person, and it is hard to see why the early transition version of me should have less right to accessing women’s spaces than me today just because of whatever surgeries or medical treatments I have had. In fact, I was probably in more need of access to women’s shelters and safe spaces in those early days, having to walk around in fear of being ‘clocked’ or that some bigot may target me because I’m a trans woman.

        • Thank you for your truth Kristen.

          I certainly believe the debate requires far more humanity. Thank you for sharing.

          • Noting that “I’m well aware of the threats your community hand out with glee.” is about as nuanced and shows about as much humanity as stating “the Christchurch Mosque massacre that your community hands out with glee Martyn”.

            My views correspond closely but not entirely with Kristen’s. Please stop reductively referring to our so-called ‘community’ as if we’re the Borg Martyn.

      • Martyn I’m sorry that your children have been threatened. THAT IS NOT COOL!!

        This has not been a good week for me. One of my trans friends hasn’t been in touch for several days. She closed down her twitter and fb accounts due to harassment from terfs. Her mental state has been fragile. I’m about to break confidence and directly contact her dad, who she’s never got on with. (Suspect something has happened between them but she doesn’t talk much about him.) I’ve lost two of my friends in Rainbow to suicide, can’t take much more of this.

        I’m sorry I lashed out at you.
        For you this is an ideological thing. For us, we’re living this every day of our lives. (No, I’m not trans.) Have you any idea what it’s like to be the subject of so much hate?

        I hope your kids are doing well. And I hope they never go through what we’re going through.

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