Did NZ just get trolled by the alt-right?

By   /   July 14, 2018  /   40 Comments

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Since when were we on the Left such intellectual cowards? We, and the progressive liberal democracy we call home, deserve better champions for our values than punch Nazis in the face cheerleaders who celebrate restricting freedom of speech.

Did we just get trolled by the alt-right?

The speed with which these crypto-fascsists rolled over as soon as Phil made his righteous call on banning them from a publicly funded venue suggests that this was always a marketing tool by the alt-right rather than a serious debate over the freedom of speech.

And we walked right into it.

I support Phil’s political leadership by banning these clowns from a publicly funded space, I wouldn’t want ISIS recruitment seminars in the Town Hall, KKK monthly meet & greet munch minglers in Council Chambers or the Man Boy Love Association annual jamboree sing alongs at Silo Park either, but I also support these crypto-fascists being allowed to speak at a private venue, just as I also support turning up to protest them at that private venue.

I believe the best way to combat these people is to stand and debate our values because you don’t beat protoNazi’s from trigger free safe spaces with built in emotional support peacock petting zones.

Comrades – again, debating crypto-fascists is NOT about turning them, it is about stopping them recruiting our fellow citizens.

The economic shock waves of the next global financial collapse feed the far right narrative, if you think this debate is going away, you are wrong.

This isn’t about platforming their vile rhetoric, it is about denouncing it – and talking and arguing is far fucking preferable than political violence in the streets.

We aid their cause when we repress their voice rather than convince others their voice is wrong.

Since when were we on the Left such intellectual cowards? We, and the progressive liberal democracy we call home, deserve better champions for our values than punch Nazis in the face cheerleaders who celebrate restricting freedom of speech.

We are better than this.

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40 Comments

  1. Dialey says:

    The fallacy of your argument is thinkingit is possible to enter into debate with them. It is not the airing of ideas they want but chaos

    • cleangreen says:

      No DAILEY,
      Martyy in saying he ssupports Phil was in respect to Phil standing in opposition of the pair comming and using a public community funded Hall.

      There is no debate going to happen when they came I understand, so there is no debate at all sadly as I would suggest that debate is more epective at changhing the wrongs of division that is at the centre of the debate.

      We stand for hearing their vioces as their rights under the UN Homan rights demands this be given to all people of any belief.

      Martyn has set his sights on not giving them our public hall to speak at but not stopping them from speaking publically, and he also is calling for non vioolence whilt they are here as we can do better than that he said.

      You say the pair are coming as; qoute; ‘they want chaos’

      We must show strength by sitting quietly and showing torerance.

      Martyn said;
      “We aid their cause when we repress their voice rather than convince others their voice is wrong.
      We, and the progressive liberal democracy we call home, deserve better champions for our values than punch Nazis in the face cheerleaders who celebrate restricting freedom of speech. We are better than this.

    • Aaron says:

      But that’s what Martin said; they don’t want the airing of ideas – which is what will happen in a proper debate. If they don’t come to the debate because they can’t use it to spread chaos then they’ll just look like cowards

      • Sam Sam says:

        Don’t like this idea of private venues because organisers can just stack the deck with crypto fascist supporters. Not so at a public venue any one can go along. Bad day, bad week.

    • Paul Scott says:

      Classic programmed progressive

    • R.P Mcmurphy says:

      thats 100% correct dialey.

  2. About debating with the far-right:

    “We would argue though that it is not the quality of ideas that make people support them (you only have to look at many comments in social media made by right-wing supporters to see how much thinking goes on), but it is the chance to wield power over others in society that make them so attractive to their followers.”

    More here:

    http://awsm.nz/2018/07/12/this-is-not-about-free-speech-this-is-simply-self-defence/

  3. David Stone says:

    “I support Phil’s political leadership by banning these clowns from a publicly funded space,”

    Were these people not intending to hire the public space? Providing it free would seem un necessary, but if they were seeking to hire it then that is what it was built for. By the public so that there are venues for gatherings apart from those provided by private organisations, very wealthy ones , for very exclusive cliental. If these venues are not hired they are a greater drain on the public purse than if they are. Their existence reflects a long standing public desire to have a collective venue for such uses that cannot be reasonably provided to the community except by the community .
    Sitting in judgement on what the public should be allowed to hear and discuss is outside the mayor’s responsibility. It is censorship , and a bad precedent for the erosion of democracy.
    D J S

  4. Helena says:

    If the venue is publicly funded then surely in a democracy it is the right of those funding it to say yea or nay to those wishing to use it. I don’t think it’s the right of some bloke called Phil to make a power of one decision. Call me what you like.
    WHO ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT, PLEASE. Who are the crypto fascists? Who are “the clowns”. Could we have some names, please.
    The only crypto fascists I know about are those who rose out of the darkness with a signed TPP, or sold off parcels of land and passports for 30 pieces of silver, not forgetting those who in the interests of “free trade” and “economic growth” is allowing billions of free water to leave our shores.
    I stand neither on the left nor the right. I have strong ideas so call me what you like.

  5. J S Bark J S Bark says:

    Oh yeah, and Putin won his election fairly…

    Debate all you want on the tilted playing field, Bomber (M’lud, as supporting evidence I present the lifetime ban from RNZ). Just don’t forget to sharpen the kitchen knives and keep the magazines fully charged. Fascists have a few debating techniques you may not be expecting…

  6. Lucy says:

    If I was a journalist I would be asking how many people had bought tickets to the Alt-Right talk. People don’t come half way round the world without a financial incentive. They appeared to make no attempt to find an alternative venue leading me to question whether without the stop in Australia it was not worth it to be here.

  7. Psycho Milt says:

    I support Phil’s political leadership by banning these clowns from a publicly funded space, I wouldn’t want ISIS recruitment seminars in the Town Hall, KKK monthly meet & greet munch minglers in Council Chambers or the Man Boy Love Association annual jamboree sing alongs at Silo Park either…

    Sure. Like most other people, you’re fully supportive of freedom of speech as long as it’s not speech you find offensive, at which point those people must be stripped of the right to use public facilities for their speech.

    It’s quite understandable why people feel that way, but it would be nice if they stopped claiming they support freedom of speech, because they don’t.

    • Paul Scott says:

      Lauren Stephan, all of us, could not have got better publicity for evidence-based argument. Thanks clowns .

  8. Mike the Lefty says:

    Yes, but sometimes actions speak louder than words.
    It is no good just denouncing these clowns and the racist, greedy, narrow-minded pricks that they represent in NZ.
    That is part of the problem that the left has in NZ.
    We are too nice for our own good, unlike our opponents on the right.
    I am not a person who believes in violence but even I sometimes wish that someone would give these pricks what they desperately deserve – a knuckle sandwich.

    • Christine says:

      We need a public space, something like Hyde Park cnr where anyone wanting to speak can speak. For nothing. Free. Away from the traffic. Couple of coppers ambulating in the background ready to step in and keep the peace and give the usual suspects the chance to bemoan police brutality.

      Public orating spaces everywhere, and that tall conspicuously inconspiculous police or GCSB chappie who perches up Wgtn walls better than Spiderman ever did, can take photos, and turn his head sideways if anyone tries to take a photo of him.

      All our cities have green spaces which could be available to speakers, legally, and it could be an opportunity for people who want to say something to say it, and who knows what may emerge ?

    • Andy says:

      Great, would you like to punch me? Since you are so peaceful I’d be happy to take one for the team

      • Mike the Lefty says:

        What team is that then?

        • Andy says:

          Not sure, apparently I am a Nazi.

          So that team.

          Even though I despise Naziism.

          Weird eh?

      • simonm says:

        He probably wouldn’t Andy, but I’d be more than happy to help out :o)

        • Sam Sam says:

          This is why we play rugby. Want to learn how to do this stuff properly go join club rugby. Sorts out the men from the boys real quick.

          • cleangreen says:

            Yeah Sam

            Good though – invite the South Africian guy here for a game of rugby – yeah!

            That may help set the stage for better understanding in the scum, at least.

            Good idea though; – as rugby when we played with the springboks in the 1980’s that changed South Africa then; – so good idea 100%

      • cleangreen says:

        Its alright ANDY,

        Over here on ‘The Daily Blog’ we are a good bunch mate most of us do agree with fair minded folks on both sides so relax we dont bite.

        Best we just let them have there say and all is sweet.

        • Andy says:

          Cleangreen – thanks for your supportive comments here. I did venture out to The Standard recently, so I appreciate the more nuanced debate at TDB

  9. Keepcalmcarryon says:

    If we got trolled then consider how many articles left leaning blog sites have contributed.
    It’s all oxygen.

  10. Kat says:

    Martyn, I presume you have you mentioned your sentiments above to Chris Trotter.

    • cleangreen says:

      Matryn; you asked;
      “Did NZ just get trolled by the alt-right”?

      I guess so now; – since yesterday lookslike it’ – as my blogs sent are not being posted Martyn; – and I am a ‘comrade’ and a financial contributor also, so are we at TDB being hacked?

      • cleangreen says:

        Yes everythings fine now Martyn thanks as even my blogs come up so i can correct the typos now ta mate cheers.

  11. Paul Scott says:

    Publicity couldn’t buy this attention. People reading and listening to Southern and Molyneux. Many walk-aways from the hysterical programmed left. >> Thanks

  12. Martin says:

    If the west had got of it’s “liberal” backside over Spain I don’t think we would have had to worry about a World war 2.
    Just saying.

  13. Rogaldo says:

    Well, free-speech-absolutism has worked out so well in the US, Hungary, Poland, Ukraine; nation-states currently trial-ballooning 21st century Nazism.

    Having fled the United States a decade and a half ago I was horrified to see the new-and-improved Youtube brand of North American White Identitarianism had taken an interest in New Zealand and was planning a fan-rally at an Auckland City venue. I was relieved when Phil Goff said no to the Alt-Lite.

    Retrospective hand-wringing from a coalition of Hobson’s Choice-style reactionaries and the ‘reasonable’ left makes me worry anew.

    Bully-pulpit demonizing of identifiable ethnic and religious minorities has had one, predictable, result. Do we need run the experiment again just to make sure that punitive exlusions, segregations, purifications, pogroms and ethnic cleansings weren’t just historical anomalies?

  14. Richard Christie says:

    Well said Bradbury.

    The book burners just play right into fascist and totalitarian hands.

    Another victory here for Infowars.

  15. John Hurley says:

    So you want labelling rights: “not for public viewing”. Who elected you as chief censor?

  16. Johnnybg says:

    Loving all this gritty head butting stuff, reminds of the days I spent roaming the country, living in the streets, ranting & performing street theatre in public squares & uni’s. Those were heady times when I lived one day at a time on faith & my wits; Public debate & a good dose of chaos is essential if we’re going to rid the world of the globaliation establishment, & prepare the way for the emergence of a new, visionary post-globalisation world.

  17. countryboy says:

    The thing that now strikes me is how primitive the arguments are.
    Black versus white versus rich versus poor versus right versus left versus girl versus boy versus gay versus straight… Ahhhh…. Who cares?
    I’m bored by the mechanical, linear, so last century-ness of it. I’m surprised and dismayed that, for example, women get paid less because they’re women. When a country sees a boat load of people trying to save themselves and their families from morons with guns and bombs is turned away after some sort of horrible sea voyage because… different? Cannabis , for example, can’t be smoked or eaten because some idiot says it’s not legal to do so because yet other idiots have made a law to appease yet more idiots who’re likely smoking cannabis in secret because being secretive is fun and a bit of a frisson so long as they’re not caught. But then, they’ll never be caught because they’re the catchers. It’s all a bit foreign thinking, a bit alien-like to me suddenly. Alt-Right people are, in fact, unwittingly primitive. They deserve to air their primitive points of view, and like all primates in the zoos of their own making, should be allowed to bellow and scream until their food’s delivered. Then, from that point on, should be left in peace to shit, scratch, root then sleep while hanging from a tree branch.

  18. Janio says:

    Cleangreen your spelling is atrocious. Give a thought to those of us trying to decipher your poor English -use spellcheck perhaps.

    I support Dialey; sharp,succinct. Great lead in to comments as an example for some long confused stuff.

  19. Janio says:

    Hope my comments don’t put you off your comments Cleangreen, they are always valuable. It was when your piece on Dialey, which followed his, you misspelt his name: I thought “pretty slack” and went for it!