Beat the children. Beat them til they bleed!
Disgusting behaviour by NZ First on Q+A this morning.
They are attempting to gain political traction by resurrecting the dead ghosts of yesterdays political battles.
NZ First want to change the repeal of section 59 so parents can legally beat the shit out of their children. They couch this in the language of a referendum, that’s disingenuous bullshit. They are dog whistling for the benefit of child bashers.
That is sick, and NZ First should feel ashamed.
NZ First claim that a 10 year old piece of legislation that has stopped parents from using section 59 as a loophole to escape convictions for assaulting their children has had a ‘chilling effect’ on parents.
A ‘chilling effect’.
Really?
If you have felt a ‘chilling effect’ on your parenting from an anti-smacking bill, perhaps that’s a good thing and evidence it works? If the anti-smacking law has been ‘chilling’ to your parenting perhaps you fucking deserve to chill?
I have a 7 year old daughter & I have never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever once felt any ‘chilling effect’ on my parenting because I don’t bash my kid!
Ugly, ugly, ugly politics from a political party that claims to be reasonable and wants to be in power post September.
This is a huge step backwards for NZ society if the legal right to bash children is allowed to occur and this is the reason progressive New Zealanders need to vote for either Labour, the Greens or MANA to stop this kind of sick, grim politics.
There was a referendum.
I am disappointed in Tracey Martin.
This is knee-jerk, populist politics at it’s worst, putting vulnerable children at risk.
I expected more from Ms Martin.
Why did you expect more from her? She is a member of NZ First.
I’m an optimist, Gosman. 🙁
how pompous and patronising…if not sexist
This is a bad look when NZ has topped the youth suicide and child abuse stats for some time now.
Hope these fuckers lose votes over it.
Agreed, Muttonbird. I was furious watching Martin on Q+A and couldn’t believe how low NZ First has sunk to exploit vulnerable children to win votes.
This is the sharp end of populism. Trump demonised muslims, mexicans, and women. NZ First wants to exploit NZ’s conservative voters.
I am disgusted by Tracey Martin. I thought she was better than this.
When people say they think smacking is okay, I ask them if they condone hitting animals
Lets get real!…what matters is love and self- respect and respect of others…can you legislate for this?
smacking ( quite different from “bashing”) is never ok and never has been ok…however parents have done it in the past to kids, usually to their own regret ( it has been done for generations )…I have done it out of exasperation and fear eg. when my two year old ran at a speeding car after he was told to stay in his seat while I went around and locked the door…he was seconds from death…he hit the side of the car and a split- second quicker he would have been under the front of the car.
…and no I never smack animals( some train dogs with a light smack on the nose)…although I have rubbed cats noses in their doo when they have done it inside
…ever heard of behaviour modification? ( should we have a law against this?)
…a better question is whether sanctimonious non smacking people ( eg Hillary Clinton supporters and certain so-called liberals in New Zealand )supported or actively jumped up and down and opposed the imperialist killing wars in the Middle East eg Iran, Iraq and Syria…and the killing of Gaddafi
( eg. I dont think Hillary Clinton would have been a smacker of Chelsea but questions are certainly asked as to whether she has done a whole lot worse)
https://www.rt.com/news/363454-timeline-gaddafi-death-anniversary/
I love the way conservatives have retrospectively taken ownership of the peace movement. If you look at every significant campaign against war, it’s been led by social liberals and left radicals, while conservatives poured scorn on them from the sidelines.
The anti-nuclear movement led primarily by the environmental movement (eg Greenpeace was formed out of this), while Muldoons “dawn raid” government deported our Pacifica neighbours and welcome nuclear ships with open arms. The movements against the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq were driven by liberals and radicals, while conservatives told us we should “patriotic” and send troops to help Bush and his cronies “stop terrorists” (ie terrorize and murder the civilian population and steal their oil resources). True, some right-wing libertarians supported the latter campaigns, when they saw the use of “anti-terrorism” rhetoric to increase the powers of the police state, and state funding of the military-industrial complex. But they too are social liberals.
Social conservatives have arrived *very* late to the anti-war party. If their opposition to overseas war is based on a real opposition to planned violence, not just political opportunism (being anti-war is so *hot* right now!), how can they defend, in the same breath, planned violence against the most vulnerable people in society, our children?
so you are branding me a “social conservative” ?…(you have no idea who I am…what my background is, what my history in the anti war movement is, or what my record is on gay rights, globalisation, feminism is etc)
…and I do NOT defend ” planned violence against the most vulnerable people in society, our children?” ( as some so-called ‘politically correct’ would like to slander me and NZF and anyone who questions the status quo, here)
…I do defend warm, affectionate, working class New Zealand parents against the threat of CRIMINALISATION who occasionally paddy whack or physically chastise in an unplanned way their errant children, as they have done for generations in New Zealand
( this is NOT to be confused with beating or killing children …or neglect…or psychological abuse)
…imo the REAL VIOLENCE against children is SEXUAL exploitation and abuse…this betrayal of trust is what causes the real long term damage
… and this is often NOT done with physical force ( but with an insidious authoritarian (usually male) moral superiority)
…it is has also been justified and advocated by all sorts of “socially liberal” males Left and Right…( just look at the Catholic Church record)
‘BBC pedophile exposé ignores real victims, triggers social-media firestorm’
https://www.rt.com/op-edge/393259-bbc-pedophiles-need-help-story/
… discrimination, exploitation and violence against women and gays has also come from the Left as well as the Right ( and from the sanctimonious patriarchal monotheistic religions)
… imo what was once the common sense working class Left in New Zealand has been infilrated and taken over by the authoritiarian ‘exceptionalists’ ( cf the Democrats in the USA), these are children of the privileged middle class with an inbred sense of superiority and grandiosity , a ‘holier than thou attitude’, towards the working class
… so called Left parties have lost all commonsense when it comes to criminalising many good working class New Zealand parents
( btw I expect this wont see the light day…it will be censored from the TDB as have my other comments )
cats smack and nip their kittens …maybe we should have a law against this?
Or maybe a law against silly remarks like that, red buzzard. Pathetic, really, pathetic.
Nz first has hit rock bottom on this one.
Think about it, NZF want to make it lawful to assault little people who cannot defend themselves from people who are supposed to love them.
Winston the baby basher, do you really want to be remembered for that?
+1
“Winston the baby basher”…can you prove this?
So you’re a nz first supporter, eh? Figures.
..and you are not obviously…but can you say anything of substance that adds to the debate…?
Oh no! Can it really be true?
But all the NZ First afficionados on this blog assured me that they were to the left of NZ Labour…
What can possibly have happened?
Oh right!
Dogwhistle politics.
What total fucking idiots…
This is a shocker. I hope their polling drops as a result. And I will be voting for Winston in Northland.
BUT the vote that matters is the party vote and I have no idea who to vote for, still.
I said my bottom line criteria for this election would policies that impact children .
So NZ First haven’t shit show now of getting my vote.
Good approach Shona!
Giving NZF your vote in Northland to keep the Natz at bay, because child poverty is growing and it’s because of direct government policy from National over 9 years!
I like Winston, and actually I like Tracy Martin, not sure if this is a beat up by the media or they really think repealing the law to allow abusers to be free is going to do anything.
Anyone thinking beating kids is ok as a defence should have their head read.
Better education for parents, free birth control and more support to parents would be a lot more effective!
Oh and well paid jobs in down and out areas, for one of the parents would help too as would be a total crack down of Meth.
I’m hoping Winston nails the Natz votes in the provinces so with Labour and the Greens can start to rebuild this country into a fair and equal society.
+100 SAVENZ…well said, as usual !
…and I am not a child beater/basher/abuser …far from it …for the record …and I don’t condone it ( it is counter-productive apart from anything else)…( nor is Winston Peters or NZF made up of beaters/bashers/abusers)
…however the occasional smack or spank by a parent on the well- padded bottom of a naughty child is understandable imo …and should not be regarded a heinous crime or a legal offence
Most of the violent inmates I have known have had violent upbringings .
I can not disagree…but how do you define “violent”?
…most of the kids I was brought up with received corporal punishment of one sort or another eg. paddy whacks , the strap, chased with a big stick etc.
…none ended up as inmates…most ended up as bank managers, teachers, nurses, real estate agents etc etc
I think most people would agree that assaulting a child with a strap or big stick is unacceptable and precisely the reason why Section 59 was amended.
As for “…none ended up as inmates…most ended up as bank managers, teachers, nurses, real estate agents etc etc” – that’s a blanket statement that cannot be proven or disproven, so is irrelevant. As you suggested earlier, “let’s stick to the facts”. Anecdotes makes for poor evidence. (As Bill English found out: http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/89876945/bill-english-claims-about-kiwi-jobseekers-using-drugs-not-backed-by-data)
I think Arthur Taylor would be in a better position to determine the backgrounds of inmates than you or I, RB.
well most NZers I know got the strap or a paddy whack or …in my case the wooden spoon…but we were LOVED!
…some of the more energetic NZers I know got chased with a big stick…one turned out an economist the other a multi millionaire real estate agent
Your advocacy of using implements to assault children is the clearest example why Section 59 had to be amended. People like you cannot be trusted to use “reasonable force” if wooden spoons, sticks, etc, are acceptable.
selective editing?…where is my other comment?…( if it doesnt come up…can people like you be trusted in a democracy)
Why are you asking me?
“advocacy”…is intentionally misleading and personally denigrating …it is factual…and no we didnt end up in jail…and nor did our New Zealand born parents…and nor are we violent new Zealanders with assault convictions
Get real !
You’re advocating beating kids with belts and bits of timber? Fuck me, when did TDB become a forum for Family First and NZ First conservatives???
Buzzard, you’re last century’s man. Beating kids is not ok, especially when nut cases like you advocate belts and wood as weapons
It is very much a real fact that New Zealand has high incidences of domestic violence and amongst the highest incarceration rates in the world. Those facts are available to anyone who cares to look, Buzzard. Your rhetoric to the contrary is high on emotive language, short on facts.
still havent put up my other comment
the TDB selectively edits
RB, you’re advocating beating kids with belts. We got that first time. People like you are what enables child abuse in this country. Child abuse dressed up as “correcting” bad behaviour. Then we wonder why some people are violent later in life.
Oh, like this you mean;
ref: http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/75321909/mother-and-partner-jailed-for-beating-child
you know that is not what I mean …and that is NOT what you have censored
Martyn;
Can we have some sort of balance to the hysteria your article seems to have
generated and actually look at NZF’s policies?
Their website has been revamped.
http://www.nzfirst.org.nz/
http://www.nzfirst.org.nz/policies
And this should worry the hell out of all of us. For our children and grandchildren.
“Under Labour’s policy we will still have 50,000 to 40,000 permanent residents from overseas flooding in here every year who are driving down wages and not helping lift productivity.
Compare this intake with the UK which has over 12 times our population. Their Prime Minister Theresa May aims to reduce immigration to 100,000.”
What is our figure today? 70,000+/annum?
http://www.radiolive.co.nz/home/opinion/2017/06/winston-peters–littles-eureka-moment-over-immigration-just-vote.html
Cheers.
+100…very good website…NZF policies are always very pragmatic and get to the nub of issues…just like their website
Sooo, you and Red Buzzard are both NZ First supporters?
Well, that explains quite a bit about your support for Trump.
well if you are trying to categorise me….can I categorise you as a supporter for Hillary Clinton?
…btw sexual abuse and child trafficking is far worse than a parental smack on the backside…and Hillary and her husband Bill seem to have a murky past here…where Donald Trump and friends are trying to clean it up
https://www.hagmannreport.com/featured-content/the-virginia-shooting-is-tied-to-sex-trafficking/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQVlKc_V3C0
https://thedailycoin.org/2017/06/17/scalise-targeted-anti-pedophile-efforts/
https://www.hagmannreport.com/featured-content/president-trump-zeros-in-on-elite-pedophiles/
http://investmentwatchblog.com/rep-steve-scalise-working-on-abolishing-human-trafficking-and-child-predators-the-shooter-was-a-left-wing-activist-who-had-abused-his-foster-children/
Wrong. Bernie Sanders.
Your references to “Hillary and her husband Bill seem to have a murky past here…where Donald Trump and friends are trying to clean it up” appears to be more of the smear campaign from the US alt-right and now picked up by you and your fellow NZ First colleagues. Also a tragic attempt at deflection.
It appears that NZF activists are attempting to ‘colonise’ this forum with their mis-information. This blogpost seems to have drawn you, ” Iain Mclean”, (and others) out of the woodwork.
actually i also was a Bernie Sanders supporter….so your suppositions are way off the mark…and absolutely nothing to do with NZF
… also I voted Mana/Int last Election and Green…so you really are away with the fairies…
I don’t think so. Your comment – “NZF policies are always very pragmatic and get to the nub of issues…just like their website (June 19, 2017 at 5:46 pm) ” – suggests otherwise.
well next thing you will be calling me Winston….so I cant help you there…lets just stick to the facts
it is the first time I have seen their website and I would recommend it !
Hang on a minute – there’s a world of difference between bloodying noses , inflicting concussion, breaking bones , covering in extensive deep bruising , inflicting torture – such as placing small children in washing machines, closets and so on and so forth … than simply giving an open handed smack to an errant and precocious small child who is playing up.
I never was really smacked as a child. And I do agree physical discipline isn’t really that effective apart from a short sharp pulling into line if needed.
And you are right – generally its a last resort. It should never be the regular. And that’s the way I brought up my children. They hardly ever needed a ‘ smack’. And I didn’t like the idea too much anyways.
But the above two examples show one is CLEARLY ABUSE , – whereas the latter forms just a small part of the toolkit in child rearing.
I don’t think NZ First intends to suddenly liberate and unleash psychopathic child beaters , – that abuse was always against the law and rightly so. I think it was more to not penalize legitimate parents.
The problem being , is that we have so many violent and substance abusing adults in NZ that children are being abused. I cite Nia Glassie as a horrific case in point.
That case shook people to the core. Her and all those other poor little tykes just like her.
So often in this country we cannot seem to arrive at a sensible middle ground on issues and are subject repeatedly to extremes in our politics.
And if you ask me, its deliberate and part of the whole Hegelian Dialectics to weaken the family and divide society.
Unfortunately, WK, there is a wide ranging gradation of violence that is more often than not subjective. For example, this case occurred in 2002, prior to the law-change;
ref: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=2047850
How far does one go with corporal punishment against a child?
How is it measured?
Is a belt ok? Not ok? Only with a light whack? Medium whack? How is it measured?
What about a piece of rope?
A wooden spoon?
We can agree categorically that ” bloodying noses , inflicting concussion, breaking bones , covering in extensive deep bruising , inflicting torture ” are not ok.
But what about the levels of violence leading up to those extreme states? And what about frequency of corporal punishment?
If the law is open to interpretation, then it will be interpreted umpteen different ways. But worst still is that to return to the old regime sends a message that hitting kids is “ok”. Next question: how hard?
Indeed- I can agree with you regarding the ‘gradation’ of force used.
Primarily because it is subjective to each individuals own interpretation. But somehow I think the original anti smacking law was a blanket law to rule out any chance of excessive force.
And in that , perhaps it has been effective somewhat. Even if it prevents one abused child.
Which is further evidence of our society of drifting away from commonsense judgement.
As I said, I dont like the idea of corporal punishment, – there are other ways, however I think the interpretation of and use of mild corrective measures has been blown out of proportion – and often by those pushing a political motive .
There are merits with the anti smacking laws most definitely , but I still do believe that most precious of commodity’s , – common sense – has been sidelined with examples of negative extreme behavior’s which sadly so many have played right into the hands thereof ,… and some would say , gradual control over the family by the state.
+100 WILD KATIPO to all your comments
“And if you ask me, its deliberate and part of the whole Hegelian Dialectics to weaken the family and divide society.”
What??
What a load of pompous silliness!! I don’t think kids being thrashed with fists, belts, sticks, or whatever, matter much to your “Hegelian Dialectics “, Katipo. My respect for your thoughts has dropped considerably if you’re going to align yourself with NZ First trolls.
Shame on you. I thought you were better than this.
not what WILD KATIPO said at all….you w..ker
[Buzzard, one more crack like that and your posting privileges will be rescinded for a week. – Scarletmod]
well actually if you censor out and deny proper debate which is critical of Sue Bradfords and the Greens criminalisation of ordinary New Zealand parents who are NOT child abusers…creating alienation…and at the same time allow slander of people who question this law … you will get frustration…so I will be banned if I retaliate ? …well it wont worry me too much…but what will it say about the people who run this site?…
You’re way off beam, Red Buzzard. If this is your way of touting for NZ First (yes, we’ve noticed your leanings to that party), then you’re going the wrong way about it.
Insulting Priss because you can’t respond intelligently to her argument suggests you’ve run out of ideas. Bad form.
Are all emotional people morons? It reads like that here?
Fact, Tracey Martin wanted one subsection of the law the highly popular Greens ex MP Sue Bradford inserted. That is that anyone is a criminal who so much as so taps or pulls a child, under any circumstances. It’s a subsection that takes over every other subsection.
88% of Kiwis and good parents voted to oppose this one and only law the Green Party has ever achieved in its existence.
Is this where the 12% hang out?
I’m going to vote NZ First to keep the 12% and the Nats out.
Over-exaggeration much, Cindy? Considering only about eight people have been prosecuted since the law-change, I fail to see what is so troubling to you about the amendment to Section 59.
“tapping or pulls a child, under any circumstances” is a mischievous, dishonest representation of the amendment.
Try beating a child into hospital with a belt, stick, vacuum cleaner pipe, etc.
re “Try beating a child into hospital with a belt, stick, vacuum cleaner pipe, etc.”
…that would have been illegal and an imprisonable offence well before Sue Bradford’s law
Nope, evidently it wasn’t, according to some reports. Hence why the Bradford Bill (taken up by Labour and supported by National) was supported on cross-party lines.
what reports?…bullshit
Same with the remark, “That is that anyone is a criminal who so much as so taps or pulls a child, under any circumstances”.
NZF have more important things to focus on, if this is one of their key Election Platforms it will lose a lot of support, shooting themselves in both feet on this one ?
Well would you look at that. Frank has been wadding around the swamp so much he’s got a leach stuck to his balls
Was that directed at me, Sam? If so, I don’t understand the context.
Let’s speak frankly. When you wade around the swamp as much as you do trying clear it out a bit some times you pick up leaches like Gooseberry
..a swamp creature
Watch it Frank, NZ First is on the rampage.
Call me simple but there’s a difference between a clip round the ears and bashing a kid to within an inch of his life, or past it.
The laws of the land should reflect that.
P.S. Calling a bloke a kiddie basher huh….
Starring:
Bradbury/Various Commentators as Goleta
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjoYl5aTWdw
Keep up the low blows,
There will be plenty more lolz.
The problem is everything in between, Jamie. What about a belt or piece of rope?
See: http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/national/84981068/Parents-slapped-kicked-and-used-skipping-rope-to-discipline-kids
Don’t concern yourself with all the good kiwi parents classified into “kiddie bashers” on account of poorly written and widely opposed legislation.
John Key himself voted FOR the legislation, in case you forgot.
And I’ve never voted for John Key or National in case you didn’t know MARCUS
…and look how he turned out
lets face it …what matters is happy secure well loved New Zealand children…the occasional use of physical chastisement is not going to hurt a well loved child…in fact many will see it as sport to outwit or out run their parents
this is of more concern
https://www.rt.com/usa/393131-guns-kill-1300-child-year/
Jamie, you and Red Buzzard make me ill. Your advocacy for beating children with belts, sticks, whatever else is handy is the sort of conservative pig ignorance we are constantly fighting.
The fact that NZ First has championed this ignorance has made me more determined than ever to help a Labour-Green victory and damn your 18th century prejudice.
It is not ok to hit people whether they are kids or adults. Hitting kids teaches them only that violence is acceptable. If you haven’t learned that then you are ill-educated.
It’s your problem PRISS if you suffer from a weak stomach. I’ll help ya out but. The kinda bloke I am. Also a working man so the ol’ funds are limited so let’s book a consultation with ol’ Doc Google.
Interesting. The prognosis looks good. The Doc recommends….
https://www.drugs.com/condition/nausea-vomiting.html
During our consultation The Doc noticed a secondary and probably undiagnosed condition. I said “clip round the ears” – you heard ” beating children with belts, sticks, whatever else is handy is the sort of conservative pig ignorance we are constantly fighting.”
A warning, the Doc’s prognosis is not so good….
http://www.healthline.com/health/how-to-clean-your-ears
Lolz
+100 JAMIE…”It’s your problem PRISS…”
PRISS is the troll….and disinformation slander expert…fools no one fortunately
[Red Buzzard, Priss has been a contributor to The Daily Blog since it’s inception. Please refrain from making allegations that are not supported by facts. – Scarletmod]
@ Scarletmod…PRISS makes me feel ill !
Another NZ First supporter, Jamie?
Frank;
Objection your Honour.! How is it fair, your Honour, that Mr Iain Charles McLean can be drawn in and slandered as if a grub just crawlen out of the woodwork no less, when he has not, I repeat not argued for or against any motion whatsoever on the table but rather just presented a factual piece of information,in the form
of an Official Website/Policies, that may or may not ,add to or help of the
debate raging between the various parties of interest.
Therefore I submit the objection be upheld, Your Honour.
On a more serious note, Frank, does TDB not welcome various views/thoughts of commentators that seem to reflect opinions of any given population on this site? Is this not what the site is for?
Not so long ago, I suggested that the MSM might try to marginalize/demonize NZF in the upcoming election campaign.
With the world waking up, at an accelerating rate, to the fact that their main parties are really controlled by the same Foreign Puppet Masters ,hence the
move to the ‘so called popularism’ of Brexit, Farage, Trump, Le-Penn,Wilder etc, it seemed NZF would be the only party that would fit this description in NZ.
Please don’t tell me this is what TDB is doing in this particular instance.?
Cheers.
It’s unclear what your point is, Iain. You don’t appear to resile from my assessment of NZ First apparatchiks attempting to colonise this Forum.
Red Buzzard;
“…btw sexual abuse and child trafficking is far worse than a parental smack on the backside…and Hillary and her husband Bill seem to have a murky past here…where Donald Trump and friends are trying to clean it up”
The first President in history to give the green light to authorities to move to put
an end to the Human Trafficking Industry etc with 1,500 arrested by Feb 2017 and that figure is estimated at 8,000 now just in America alone.
Credit to TDB in allowing your links from Hagmann Report etc as it is an issue that has been bubbling away under the surface now for a while.
Only the odd local MSM report on arrests but off course nothing from the large MSM.
Your Youtube link “This is why the Deep State is Targeting Trump” interview
with investigative reporter Liz Crokin is particularly chilling.
If you go in at 37min you will take in the Scalise advert for the legislation but
it is about 38.30min mark to see Joe Biden’s behaviour that is very disturbing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQVlKc_V3C0
It is todays science that young peoples blood transfusions into older people is
highly beneficial.
At the cellular level science has proved younger cells are produced.
For readers new to the subject here is the shocking history that the very
Top Elites have known about going way back to Babylon and Egypt.
https://empireexposed.blogspot.co.nz/2017/04/the-ruling-elites-pedophile-bloodlust.html
Source;
http://phibetaiota.net/2017/06/jordan-sather-pedophilia-blood-work/#more-125954
I could continue in how top officials are slowly introduced to sex with minors that
is then used for blackmail but maybe another time.
Robert Steele believes that this will be the Globalists Archillies Heel.
William Binney has stated that all the NSA Data that is stored could bring
them down but no-one has written the software to retrive it. (yet)
Cheers.
Wow, this article really has drawn out the NZ First trolls. The reactionary responses from NZ Firsters shows that they have no part to play in any progressive government. They are National-lite, and heavy in social conservatism. My suspicion of Peters is further reinforced by the crap I’m reading here.
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