This is Key’s argument for war and his insinuation that the Left are hypocrites for not supporting his humanitarian re-invasion of Iraq…
More Dog airhorn than whistle for war, because that’s what us moral crusaders for – what is it this time, Democracy? Freedom? Corporate rights to buy and manipulate whatever natural resources the latest country America is invading this year? Which empty and meaningless justifications would Key like to hang his argument on? Oh – the evil that is ISIS.
What I love about all the voices that are solemnly declaring war against ISIS is that their sanctimony is supposed to eclipse those of us who are arguing against war. It’s as if the insinuation is that the Left are somehow on the side of ISIS, that ISIS are so evil that their mere existence is justification for extermination.
What this tone masks is that the Left are as determined to end ISIS as those demanding military intervention, the only difference is that the Left has thought it through rather than knee jerk a call for conflict.
Let’s be clear, ISIS are a horrifically medieval cult who have managed to gain power in Iraq because of the power vacuum America has left as a blowback legacy from their last immoral war in Iraq when Bush invaded for Weapons of Mass Destruction that never existed to overthrow a Dictator they funded.
ISIS have been given vast sums of money from Saudi Arabia to counter Iranian influences and have been supported by Turkey by buying oil which in turn helps Turkey quell Kurdish forces who clash with ISIS as well.
ISIS have managed to tap into disillusioned migrant Muslim communities in the West. Instead of seeing their radicalisation as a failure of secular societies reaching out and providing them with a sense of inclusion, we use it as an excuse to impose draconian mass surveillance powers to thought police domestic critics.
ISIS have suddenly dominated media attention because they have basic internet skills and their executions are watched online. This doesn’t make ISIS the most brutal or evil organisation on Earth, it just means we are seeing brutalisation that we wouldn’t normally have seen.
The killing of Palestinian civilians by the IDF are as horrific but we don’t see those images. We don’t see the CIA torturing suspects. We don’t see drone strikes that kill dozens of civilians for every terrorist extrajudicially assassinated. We don’t see the Lord’s Resistance Army kidnap children, feed them drugs and get them to mutilate and murder one another. We don’t see Catholic Priests sexually abusing children.
There is a lack of footage of our crimes and our abuses, hence ISIS suddenly has the brand leadership on barbarity.
I am not defending the horror that these mutated and warped extremists are committing, I’m stating that the exposure of their crimes has angered the West in ways the US Military Industrial Complex could never have dreamed of.
The decision to burn the Jordanian pilot was made as a like for like execution. The argument being bombs cause fire, so this pilot will die by the way he has killed. ISIS quickly found themselves in trouble however as the internal dogma and religious arguments of Islam is that only God has the right to punish by fire. This led to ISIS having to produce scripture and religious argument trying to back up their decisions to burn.
I add that as context, a context the West is missing in their rush to scream ‘barbarians’.
The Left want ISIS gone as well, but surely it’s the cutting off of funding to ISIS by the Saudi’s and Turkey that is going to be far more successful at ending ISIS than going to war. The bloody Americans have spent $250 billion trying to train the ever disappointing Iraqi Army, our 100 ‘trainers’ will be there shooting people when not ‘training’ because this war will be fought via remote control drones, special forces and corporate war mercenaries.
UN sanctions against Turkey and Saudi Arabia has the power to control this, not a re-invasion of Iraq to try and deal with the consequences of the last failed adventure that saw millions of civilians die.
Chest beating for war is all terribly brave and adolescent Mr Key, but asking the rest of us to go along with pointless violence that has far more chance of making everything worse just seems fucking abhorrent.
My feelings exactly . If war didn’t turn a nice profit I wonder if we’d have wars at all ?
Israeli arms dealers . http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/witness/2014/05/lab-20145475423526313.html
What if jonky said ” Right ! Lets go to war then ! ? ” and all our soldiers said ” Go fuck yourself ! ”
And has jonky forgotten about share holdings in arms manufacturing companies he may have ? Like the shares he forgot about owning in NZ Rail . The rail system we , as a people , used to own .
Jonky’s credibility’s dead . It’s only the MSM that keep its carcass from toppling over .
10000% Martyn & COUNTRYBOY,
Key is singing the song we have heard from all warlords in previous war theatre campaigns.
The mere fact that Key wants to go along with the US to use small nuclear weapons that the US generals are suggesting only have minimal collateral damage is the sign that Key wants us to now go back on years of being antinuclear and now escalate Nuclear weapons activities makes him a tyrant and a warlord
God keep us with this madman clinging onto power.
Exactly @CG – “Key is singing the song we have heard from all warlords in previous war theatre campaigns.”
John Key
“So the very people who tell me their whole DNA is laced with human rights and standing up for people who can’t protect themselves tell me to look the other way when people are being beheaded by kids, burned by kids and thrown off buildings. Well, sorry. Give me a break. New Zealand is not going to look the other way.”
Hermann Goering
“All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”
And the link between the two is……?
They are using the same rhetoric to justify the same end.
Goering said you just need to scare them and play the patriot card, while Key is trying to scare them and playing the patriot card.
Yeah, no link there.
Good point … second that one.
I think we have a roll in training troops over there, but wouldn’t it be safer for our guys, and cheaper, to put them on a plane and bring them here. It costs millions to transport our equipment, and a fraction of that cost to fly the soldiers needing training to this part of the world.
No profit in that Budmans Page,and I doubt they would just be training Iraq ‘s, even peace keepers get killed and if terrorists are there they will kill NZ training people as well as fighting soldiers.
The only profit will be John key getting golds stars for sending troops to Iraq at Americas bidding.
That’s a bit gutless – you are either in or out!
I think about Vietnam and Afghanistan, both ending very badly for us with no conclusion but a very expensive exercise for us all while our own Government continues to borrow $300million every week, with a ballooning Crown deficit now reaching almost 100 Billion up from just eight billion when FJK took over as the elitist lapdog leader of NZ.
No one seems worried the Key/English claim they have no financial way to support Kiwirail any more while they are happy to send our borrowed money instead on yet another winless war?
Let us redirect our priorities firstly and support our own strategic assets firstly or we will just be yet another basket case like Greece pretty shortly.
And these troops we are training – the supposed Iraqi Army.
Who exactly are they?
A representative group of the Iraqi people or are they really just a collection of Shia militia…. do we know, does John Key know?
Great, look forward to Max Key joining up and doing his bit.
That young Key would soon look for a reason not to go to Daddy’s war, you can bet on that.
He plays in a band, he will all of a sudden be deaf…
Can’t go, sorry.
Who in their right mind would want to go fight in these hell holes.
One answer is send the Politicians first, after all most wars are started by them, or nut case religions.
Yeah. Right. ‘Good morning, Vietnam’ reprised.
Wouldn’t wish that on the boy even if his father is John Key .Its not likely .If it happened John Key would get sleepless nights like other parent.
I read somewhere that John Mc Cain invented the name ISIS for the terrorists , always America is involved in wars.
If NZ went to war with every war America was involved in we would be perpetualy at war with anyone America disagrees with or wants to take over
Russia will be next on the pretext Russia started the war in Ukraine.
John Key is either a fool to be conned or America wants our soldiers to fight their war, he will do as he’s told,
hes got nothing to lose,they are just soldiers to him not people.
Patriotism is another word for volunteering to be put in harms way,
it was invented so the big money and leaders could make war at someone else’s expense.
Giving white feathers to men not in uniform in the last 2 wars by wealthy women make soldiers feel bad if they didn’t fight, saying it was their patriotic duty to fight.There is nothing patriotic in killing innocent people on both sides of the wars, my grandfather said if the leaders themselves who declared war had to fight the leaders of the so called enemy, there would be no war.
Leaders sit on their backsides and decide who will fight but never had to do it themselves or ever will. John Key is such a backside sitter.
I think I counted more false-hoods than truth in that article. And you idea to use sanctions against Turkey and SA is terrible.
[From a ‘right-winger’]
Rhetorical question – Training a foreign army in the middle of a war zone, what could go wrong???
It’s not only the Saudi’s funding ISIS.
John McCain, Hilary Clinton and pResident Obama need to be tried for treason for arming the enemy for a start
The US cannot be trusted as an ally at the moment because every single branch of the US ‘security apparatus’ has been penetrated by the Muslim Brotherhood – don’t take my word for it, hear what a US 4 star has to say, the implications are chilling
https://r1016132.wordpress.com/2015/02/07/snafu-4-star-us-admiral-warns-of-muslim-brotherhood-penetration-of-every-single-us-security-agency/
Now is not the time to be jumping in half-pie-ka-pie!!!
If one looks at Key’s sequence of statements with respect to intervention they are analogous to throwing straw in the air to test the wind as to whether he can please his US and UK friends while not further denting his domestic popularity. Given Key is basically an amoral person whose revealed philosophy is one of the self this comes as no surprise and certainly leaves engenders cynicism about the humanitarian drivers which he claims for himself and no high ground from which to criticise others motivation.
As to the rest of the analysis I believe that a number of points are in error.
1).the Muslim diaspora may be disillusioned and feel excluded but this is largely due to the culture they bring with them, the resistance of the culture to change, the refusal to accept enlightenment values and so on. The cultural relativists seem unable to get their heads around the evidence that this is a world view that is “very highly” resistant to change and is a threat to our values and way of life.
2). Saying that ISIS exist “because of the power vacuum America has left as a blowback legacy from their last immoral war in Iraq” is a gross over simplification. Without a doubt this was criminal and given the existing power structures the bastards will not be bought to account. Also it is undeniable that it greatly exacerbated and accelerated chaos and mayhem in the region but it was not the PRIMARY factor, this conflict was already in the making. a)The Persians, Arabs and proxies have long been at each others throats. c) the region has been unstable since the fall of the Ottoman empire and western involvement has prevented resolution c) The introduction of sufficient modern medicine to increase child survival has resulted in a explosion in the youth population AND d) the outcome of all this is a culture that in its present form struggles to provide prosperous and inclusive economies.
Should we be involved: bloody hard one and honestly doing a rational analysis I can think of more reasons not to be involved including further destabilising the area – BUT this mob are abhorrent, personally I see them as akin to disease carrying vermin that should be eradicated Its like seeing a plague caring rat ones natural reaction is to stomp on it – so lets go in eradicate, then out quick.
We have had this Paradox of Tolerance disagreement before! .
As to the other issues in the region only the locals can sort it out all the west can do is help on the humanitarian, educational and building areas anything else is extreme hubris.
You can disagree with a position john key takes but to call him amoral is unwarranted. Give me an example of that. As a moderate I am amazed that every decision that is criticised always blames Key as though he has sole decision on everything. Not correct.
I used amoral,(i.e. lacking a moral sense; unconcerned with the rightness or wrongness of something) in preference to immoral as given the dominance of the self aggrandisement spirit in the western world many of his actions may be considered as acceptable.
As to amoral acts: The extension of the deposit guarantee scheme to investors, such as South Canterbury Finance, who had taken high yield investments which supposedly are paid in consideration of the risk. The white washing of Bill English’s manipulation of parliamentary / MP expenses, which whilst legal is not of a standard one would expect of a deputy PM and Finance minister. The increase in regressive taxation (I,e. GST) while decreasing rates on the well off, selling off of state assets and dramatically increasing the level of government borrowing. The plans to withdraw from the provision of state housing by a spurious plan to increase community provision which is in effect a step towards a modern version of the Dickensian workhouse – oh this is by a man who was brought up in a state house – lovely chap. I could go on and on, e,g, Collins, Slater, his parliamentary staff – all these accumulate to give a picture of one whose only goals seem to be ones of mammon.
Your contention that Key does not have the sole decision is correct but given that he is probably critical for the current government to retain power the others will do pretty much what he wants.
And for girls being marriage ready at 9? What’s your view on that then?
These buggars ARE evil, they don’t have first mortgage on it, but they bloody well are and there is no glossing over it.
I am no fan of John Key’s btw but just because I have zero time for his politics does not mean I have then to make excuses for knuckle walking paedophiles
Take a look at who’s funding these fuckers.
That’ll tell you all you need to know.
It’s the old rule “follow the money”.
IMO a fantastic post that basically covers all that is so very wrong about this latest “war” against something that has absolutely nothing to do with us in a country that has absolutely nothing to do with us. If the West didn’t have the multitude of double standards, I could maybe kinda get behind it purely on moral grounds, but as it stands… yeah, nah.
It may be appropriate to call ISIS adherents “mutated and warped extremists” but “evil” is something else. Evil acts are done in a cold-blooded, not a crazed, way and there is always a ‘sane’ logic behind it. The logic in this case is to draw us into the spider’s web.
Our enraged response is exactly what they want. We in the west are provoked by the barbarity of what we see – and want revenge. Potential supporters of ISIS are enraged when they see their cities and holy shrines reduced to rubble by our bombers – and want revenge.
If the game is played at this level ISIS can’t lose, at least not on their home ground. Killed soldiers of ISIS will be quickly and willingly replaced. We cant win a victory purely in the air. At some point we need boots on the ground. As our body bags come home, who will step forward to replace them? Do we have a stomach for this even now?
If the US has spent $250 billion on training Iraqi soldiers to no avail, what possible difference can we make? Is this why we were given a place on the Security Council? Just to follow the US into another futile war? Because that is the price of admission to the ‘club”? The price is to high.
I sort of agree with that until I get to remember how these outfits treat women, then I see red. Of course that view is not reserved for IS, I am sure you will grasp that.
I do think the rest of the world, probably with UN backing should join together and destroy these radical groups.
I get a bit antsy when I hear justifications for the treatment of women in some of these countries, including of course, Saudi Arabia and Iran, and to a lesser extent, the USA by citing culture religion. I will argue that these “cultures” are not something set down by all in these societies that women have no say, therefore they are bullshit and I shall not hesitate in calling them so. As for the States, well, the only conclusion I can come to there is that a whole bunch of them, many with power, are mad as meat-axes.
I am over people using medieval scratchings from the controllers of the day (bible, Koran, torah etc) to be relevant today and justification for the repression of women and basically, paedophilia.
21st century people.
I think you may be mischaracterising ISIS somewhat. The group is abnormally competent for an end-times cult, and several times demonstrated financial acumen relating to its attacks in Iraq. This has liberated it to some extent from the rather limited and probably conditional funding available to jihadist groups from ultraconservative Islamic factions.
The US has moved belatedly to constrict its financial activities, and it may be that this will gradually erode ISIS efficiency. The wreckage caused by the Iraq invasion, a non-trivial drought, and the staggering, Key-like incompetence and cruelty of the Assad regime continue to prompt people to search for alternative ways of life. Young men in particular find ISIS attractive.
NZ lacks the forces to defeat ISIS on the ground. Providing aid and assisting to rebuild critical infrastructure is a better long term strategy for us, and involves considerably less murder.
So why aren’t we helping Nigeria? And Kenya? And Rwanda? They’re Commonwealth ‘family’ and they have terrorist activity to match Daesh. And South Sudan, which has enquired about membership.
Daesh is bad news – yet they are no more ‘extreme’ than the Israeli extremists who kidnapped and burned Mohammed Abu Khdeir. And all their ‘horrific’ executions are also applied in several nations – including Iraq. Not to mention the great US of A in all its death penalty glory. And the delightful remnants of the IRA.
This article http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/08/isis-islamic-state-ideology-sharia-syria-iraq-jordan-pilot also adds a touch of sunlight to the debate.
And if we want our military to be ‘trainers for the oppressed’ – let’s make Our Leader happier – and make it user pays. The income might offset the inevitable rehab bill.
These arguments make no sense to me – the actions by ISIS are no worse than IDF missiles, CIA torture or drone strikes or (bizarrely) pedophile priests, just more visible? Firstly, all of these have been very well publicised, secondly it is false equivalence to compare specifically targeted responses to the random terror conducted by ISIS.
The comparison with pedophile priests (why not scout masters or school teachers?) might hold water if the Pope supported them publicly, quoting scripture to do so as the Islamist Mullahs do.
You think economic sanctions will bring down ISIS? The Castro brothers and Mugabe could give them advice on how to get around them. They just don’t work, but they do however further impoverish the innocent civilians who need help the most.
Exactly right Martyn. There is no justification for NZ being involved in this war. The only purpose it would serve is to bolster the US position a position I and many other NZers oppose.The mainstream media deserve our complete contempt also for their shameless emphasis on the evils of ISIS while ignoring the many beheadings in Saudi Arabia and the innocent victims, some children, of US drone strikes. If you can print money you can buy almost anything
…ISIS suddenly has the brand leadership on barbarity.
Gold – and bang on the money!
Crosby Textor Speak….
Formula – take the left stance on human rights and then reverse it to the right – mimic mimic mimic
“So the very people who tell me their whole DNA is laced with human rights and standing up for people who can’t protect themselves tell me to look the other way when people are being beheaded by kids, burned by kids and thrown off buildings. Well, sorry. Give me a break. New Zealand is not going to look the other way.”
JK in his usual memory fade, forgot to mention Human rights activists don’t normally advocate going to war and bombing the crap out of a country and also trying out those nifty small scale atom bombs that fell out of favour since USA last used them in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Yep the 1980’s rise of the Nukes seems to be back on the agenda.
But first coerce another member of the security council to take part in the club…. that way legitimising an illegal war on Iraq.
“What this tone masks is that the Left are as determined to end ISIS as those demanding military intervention, the only difference is that the Left has thought it through rather than knee jerk a call for conflict.”…………..WHERE IS THEIR POLICY………?
So I have asked the question in all honesty (twice – the first was never published here) where is the policy…..for gods sake, be a bit of an effective opposition, or piss off and let some one else do it.
Looks like we’re off to war with Isis! I’m quitting my job today and gonna go down to theTown Hall and put my name down for the army. Then I’m going to join the jubilant throngs in town, yell three cheers for John Key and the country, and then go home and pack my bags for Egypt!
Anyone one notice that IsiS and Al nustra front never say anything bad about Israel!.Maybe because those two organisations get logistical and medical support from Israel.The left should not want to IS destroyed. It is part of a greater plan to destroy the middle east countries to make greater Israel possible.Surely that must be a good thing.We can train more moderates to join in the good fight.
“Cook looks back to the seminal essay by Israeli foreign affairs official Oded Yinon, which was published by the World Zionist Organisation in 1982, advocating the transformation of Israel into a regional imperial power by fragmenting the Arab world “into a mosaic of ethnic and confessional groupings that could be more easily manipulated”. (p. 107) Not least of the benefits to be derived from dissolving the existing Arab states was that Israel could more easily proceed with its ethnic cleansing policy in the occupied Palestinian territories. At this time, however, US administrations were pursuing a status quo policy, bolstering compliant regimes and harassing the non-compliant. Also Israeli officials’ vision of their empire was based primarily on ensuring regional stability. It was not until the rise of the neocons and their exploitation of the post-September 11 climate that US policy decisively shifted in the direction charted by Yinon and increasingly adopted by Israeli strategists in the interim period.”
http://www.jonathan-cook.net/docs/review-jordan.pdf
Like to recommend this astonishingly good essay which perceptive readers will discern is very relevant to this conversation:
http://mondoweiss.net/2015/02/i-misremember-iraq
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