Similar Posts

- Advertisement -

40 Comments

  1. A good article Chris.
    I agree with PPII….. the Greens must get focused on their core principles and get disciplined – especially Marama and Golriz! Time is running out and we cannot afford any more own goals (or I’ll be reclaiming “that” word !).

    1. I agree with Garabaldi 100%.
      The greens are copping out at present with James Shaw saying (my words) “we can only do what we can”

      We say this is not good enough for a once in a planetary moment of immerse calamity about to overtake our lives’ – His message was simply “softy softly catchy monkey” but we don’t have time.

  2. Well Chris the problem is that not enough people, some of them appropriately qualified scientists , believe that CO2 is making, or will make any significant difference to the world’s climate. It is socially suicidal to voice doubt in the present state of the debate, so most doubters don’t make a big noise about it, but without all those people being convinced, especially among politicians who’s political careers depend on not being a “climate denier” , nothing is going to actually change. So depending on how soon the “science” proves the world is going to end if we don’t reduce CO2 emissions we, or at least some of us will live to see if the “science” was right or wrong.
    If we are to actually reduce CO2 emissions it is going to be at the personal level. All the people are going to have to take it into their own hands individually, privately. Not by holding public demonstrations or writing comments and articles about it, but by organising their own lives so that the don’t use anything that is dependent on the use of fossil fuels. That includes the internet of course. But most agitators for climate change action want the government to force other people to make the sacrifices rather than change anything much in their own lives. To ban exploration and utilisation of our own deposits as if this will magically create an alternative method of maintaining our comfortable existence.
    The other Bete Noir that oppresses us is the debt mountain and the price of housing and access to the money to buy one.. If everyone resolved as I did 50 years ago after a nasty experience early in my life, that I would manage my affairs without borrowing from a bank, and curtail my ambitions to fit within the parameters that that determination allowed , then house prices would be at what most people could afford by saving for a few years and using only their own money. The banks could not dominate us without our co operation. And in the same way the fossil fuel industry could not dominate without our co operation , but it is no more likely that everyone will do for themselves what is necessary to stop using fossil fuels than it is that everyone will agree to stop borrowing money from banks.
    D J S

    1. ‘But most agitators for climate change action want the government to force other people to make the sacrifices rather than change anything much in their own lives.’

      Really? And on what evidence do you base that assertion?

      1. I should have said there are notable exceptions AFKTT but almost all my acquaintances are examples of lovely genuine people who are concerned and committed to the mainstream belief the same as you . One or two have adopted a lifestyle that is minimalist; driving very fuel efficient vehicles and as little as possible, but by and large the vast majority are living normal lives in Auckland, driving as they need to though one runs miles every morning and night to work at the museum but that is to keep fit rather than to save emissions. That normality is not enough to make a difference.
        I respect your position , and I accept that mine is eccentric in having the temerity to disagree with the advice of the body of scientists engaged by the UN to determine the outcome of what we are doing. But in trying to understand the science I am not able to accept their reasoning and arrogant though it is to disagree , I would have to lie to pretend I did not, though that would be socially a more comfortable part to take.
        Cheers D J S

        1. ‘committed to the mainstream belief the same as you’

          David, you have made yet anther completely unfounded assertion.

          For your information, I am nit committed to any mainstream beliefs. Indeed, I spend most of my time on this blog challenging them and pointing out their flaws.

          I do study the basic science and make logical inferences. I’ve been doing that for about 55 years.

          1. Surely you do not claim that your position on CO2 emissions causing a warming of the climate is not mainstream, in that it is what the majority of people accept at this point. This is the subject of the discussion. I made no implications about your position on other subjects.
            D J S

  3. Sadly most of the Greens MP’s are in the wrong party. They should be in Labour. There is zero difference between the Greens and Labour that I can see, therefore you might as well vote Labour.

    Likewise you might as well vote The Maori Party or previously parties like Mana for their social welfare packages than the Green Party.

    The Green Party today is not that environmental… There seems to be zero environmental focus, and even what they used to campaign for that was tangential, which is buy local produce is now a joke because the local produce is increasingly owned by overseas giant corporations signed off by the Overseas Investment Office which the Greens have a Ministers in.

    OIO has become a rubber stamping joke, like the environmental protection agency that just sued Greenpeace for costs rather than the polluters…

    I just don’t know, whether to vote for Greens out of nostalgia of policy past, or vote someone else…

    There is no political party who genuinely campaigns for the environment anymore, so do you just keep voting hoping they will change or for that ideal?

    1. Na imo the party caucus and rank and file have much more in common with National, the r/f members as well as caucus are usually very rich, white and have no interest in collective issues apart from welfare they are absolutely consumed with individualist upper middle class identity issues. Where as Jacinda had to be installed by caucus to avoid a primary as she would never have won the left or unions over and never won the leadership. Apart from young Labour, caucus and certain party dinosaurs the rank and file of labours membership is still highly working class and union oriented and most of the rank and file think the greens are a bunch of alt medicine conspiracy theorist, rich militantly woke nut jobs who the first thing they did in govt was give the nats their questions and call Little corrupt for briefing them, we call them vegan Nats on bikes. There’s a lot of respect for the rod Donald generation of the greens but this lot naaaah. Labour has many issues but we don’t need a bunch of neoliberal woke vegans on bikes flooding the party and further outflanking the working class members

  4. I disagree entirely with Trotter’s premise. Not only do the ends not justify the means, but in a very real sense; the means are the end!

    However, I do understand the frustration (often) nonGreen Party members have at; the GP not staying in (what is perceived to be) their lane of being exclusively an environmentalist party. They are wrong, and have chosen not to contribute to; the evolution of the GP from the Values Party, through their shaky alliance with the Alliance, to the present day; for whatever reason.

    If you want to change the GP, then join and participate in the GP. It is more tedious, and frustrating, to build rather than tear down, but it has some chance of achieving something. Or go start your own Eco-fascist party if you think that will achieve anything besides stroking your own ego.

    1. Most pundits don’t under stand how racism is unfolding in the U.S and how it ties in to the greater scheme and you seem to be one of them, Mr Forget now. Specifically racism ties into New Zealand through social ferment starts as an individual who gets fed up and builds into a global experience which has a lot to do with the corona virus isolating everyone for 6 months.

      I’m upset because the police harassed me, cops watched and did nothing as my cousin was stabbed to death. If unrest is significant enough it becomes a movement where others follow and it becomes organised. After getting organised we have institutionalization and the movement from social ferment to organization happened like that and so to will the shift to institutionalization for anyone with even half the skill of Hitler.

      Hitler wasn’t the first time, it’s happened with other movements the Arab Spring, apartheid and so on and so on. But pretty much from an organised perspective and social movement from the Martin Luther King days to the Black Lives Matters movement. BUT the movement from social ferment to organization AND then to institutionalization happened in about a week which Iv never seen before and I don’t think anyone’s seen that before.

      The combination of being on lockdown, access to the Internet and the ability of everyone to be there own newscaster, and the pressure mounting on politicians, bureaucrats, administrators and dissatisfaction with police is the lever everyone is pulling on to show dissatisfaction with the current American President and then it follows its way all the way down. Now I don’t want to be a doomsayer but that is a very significant part of the puzzle of social unrest because there’s a lot going on.

      If you factor in the bursting of the everything bubble made up of the Dotcom collapse, the 2008 meltdown, the end of the 50 year bond market boom, low interest rates in combination with the coming disillusion of unemployment numbers and the pandemic shutdown that will in my opinion will depending on how the depression plays out will benefit New Zealand by excising racism it will New Zealand will be inclusive towards more of other countries talents, dynamics and gender diversity into the upper realms of wealth and power and capital.

      1. Sam

        My condolences for your cousin. However you are not the only person to be harassed by the police. If you are urging violent revolution in response to social oppression, I must say that I disagree. For one thing; it is those who are best with violence who will prevail, and that is unlikely to be the side of reason and equality.

        My comments are meant to be taken in the context of our current MMP representative democracy. Though I am not entirely against people taking whatever direct action they may deem necessary, so long as they understand the consequences first. Also, not; Mr, just; Forget Now, or FN, will do.

        1. Hi Mr now.

          I just want to say that if I did not insert the words “violent revolution” in to my comments above, then you did.

          1. Sam

            Your words are such an incoherent muddle, that it seemed possible such was your intent. I hope that you are finding the typing therapeutic, as it certainly doesn’t effectively communicate meaning to others.

          2. If you don’t like it then give us a tldr about why you think Chris is wrong so I don’t have to give you a tldr about why I think he’s correct, based on evidence of course.

      1. Applewood

        I have seen; white male retirees, at GP meetings. I would be more concerned by the middle-classness of the party myself. But there is a bit of a vicious cycle in that; the politically disengaged are difficult to engage politically. There may be a bias towards females, as they seem to be better at working incrementally in groups for the common good rather than needing to be the center of attention who dictates all action. But even that depends more on the person than their gender.

        1. Lol.
          And with that attempted justification, completely non aware it encapsulated the essence of identity politics, the Greens disappeared at the election.
          How a school of politics (identity) thinks it can fight sexism and racism by being sexist and racist is just an exercise in self delusion.

          The Greens: disappearing up their own orifice at a town near you.

          1. KCKO

            I think I may be running into a culture clash where I am describing my experiences with the Otago Greens, and others are seeing that through the lens of their impression of the Wellington GPMPs. Once again, I do think that the current list ranking process is flawed in that it no longer alternates females and males – but I mainly blame that on lazy GP members voting for the name recognition of sitting MPs.

            The Greens; appearing to care about the impact of humans on other humans, as well as the broader physical environment. Myself; keeping calm, and carrying on assisting the GP for the next 101 days until the election. The election results; unknown – dependent on the events and campaigning strategies from now until then.

  5. If Greens adopt Maori virtues of love and commitment to whenua and Tangata tangata tangata – they will reach a larger diverse group who will appreciate them and the practical things they can do for now and to take us into the future. I think that they are so fixed on environment and so middle-class in their attitudes and fixed in the verities they have decided encompass their beliefs and goals that they have withdrawn from being citizens to a bunch of Joan of Arcs.

  6. Well said, Chris.

    However, I must take issue with this: ‘Hitler and his followers were fighting for a myth – the German volk. The Greens are fighting for the survival of a very real and very vulnerable biosphere.’

    The Greens are NOT fighting for the survival of a very real and very vulnerable biosphere.

    They ARE fighting for is the maintenance of the myth that it is possible to protect the environment and provide a future for the next generation whilst at the same time maintaining the comforts and conveniences of fossil-fuel-based civilisation and maintaining the Ponzi money system, which is ultimately predicated on melting down the planet.

    The Greens insistence on maintaining mutually exclusive concepts in their policy formulation and believing in the possibility that mutually exclusive policies can coexist leads to the awful compromises you have highlighted.

  7. The main problem with people like the Greens is the way they make decisions. If everyone at a meeting had a chance to put forward their main idea then the circle would start again as to the imagined downsides and how they could be alleviated, and who would benefit from it, then the vast majority would start with a better understanding of the advantages and problems. Then the work would be to establish the most practical ways to go about it for successful outcomes. Then look at what would be unsatisfactory in each method and how they could be altered to fit within the set parameters, environmental or people slanted.

    Discussions like that would prevent Davidson and co getting caught up in the ‘c’ rant. That is not of priority in a Party trying to grapple with climate change, environmental degradation, food resource being lost, animal habitat being destroyed, chemical and plastic causing deterioration, and poverty and ilolhealth and sadness zooming because of denial of government to take responsibility for their past wrongful actions, and to make bold changes now. There was so much to do and the navel gazers with their legitimate criticisms were not the most in need of attention. The gender, gay issues have had unprecedented positive action. Now they can wait while others with now urgent problems get the attention they deserve. And let it be in a way that shows Green sensibilities which must show caring about all people, not just the chosen ones of the moment.

    Lees-Gallloway did not impress this morning on 9toNoon. If he is Green and forced to do such distasteful work at the behest of the system, he should explain that is how it is even if it annoys all the Sir Humphreys and the Labour ruling thespians. It is unfair to throw visa holders over the cliff; his raspy voice explaining how NZs needed jobs was just repeating the old cry heard and ignored over decades of neolib determination, of both meanings. We seem to have lost the idea of integrity, jerking foreigners around, charging people highly for government services that only partially deliver.

    We are supposed to be running under efficient business rules. But they have government rules to keep them in line. Our govt takes service to its ‘customers’ on a loose, slippery basis. Immigration seems to be lacking in humanity. I hope they don’t bleed green when they cut themselves!
    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2018749867/immigration-minister-on-the-government-s-plans-for-migrants

  8. Paradoxically, it wouldn’t be all that courageous. There has been more than $2.5 trillion of investment in renewable energy in the last few years, with the equivalent of one and a half thousand Huntly Power stations (not including large hydro schemes) online. Solar is cheaper than other power sources now. NZ has been described as the ‘Saudi Arabia of wind’, and Brendon Harré is promoting an innovative pumped storage scheme whereby we could pump water up to the Lake Onslow area in Central Otago (there are several big reservoirs in the hills there) and then let it run down again, thereby making our electricity 100% renewable even when the sun wasn’t shining or the wind blowing. And so on. These pragmatic Green New Deal visions and schemes are actually quite exciting and just the thing to get the Greens over the line I would have thought. They even address social justice issues like the cost of electricity. (See for instance http://sdg.iisd.org/news/renewable-energy-investment-to-surpass-usd-2-5-trillion-for-2010-2019-unep-report-finds/#:~:text=5%20September%202019%3A%20Global%20investment,UN%20Environment%20Programme%20(UNEP) and also https://www.interest.co.nz/opinion/97543/brendon-harre-sees-future-%C2%A0hydrogen-trains-and-end-carbon%C2%A0era-hydrogen-powers-heavy)

Comments are closed.