HMNZS Manawanui – New Zealand’s reputation sunk with her
Before I start on an examination of the HMNZS Manawanui fiasco – because that is what it is, a fiasco – a little background to where I’m coming to this from. My experience as a mariner was primarily rowing a 12 foot fryan dinghy solo around Shoal Bay in the inner Waitemata harbour as a teenager in the late 80’s making my own maps of the sand bars and mangroves so I don’t hold myself out as an expert on seamanship or hydrographic charting, however it did give me an appreciation of the serenity of the sea and of its dangers.
A sudden change in wind speed or direction and your plans had to change with it. Faced with a kilometre of open water to navigate to get home (we had a boat ramp and lived on the Northern edge of Bayswater opposite the Onewa lagoon) when the wind picked up and the tide was falling the anxiety occasionally bordered on panic, but I made it back safely each time albeit exhausted and/or soaked and/or late. Fishing excursions with Dad, and a 15hp Yamaha, could take us out to Rangitoto or Browns Island in the outer harbour, or all the way back beneath the Greenhithe bridge and halfway to Riverhead where the water became fresh. Those voyages gave me both a fear and respect for the sea and for his seamanship. His fearless charging, full throttle, against the current, in a cross wind, waves higher than we could see above as we negotiated our way under the harbour bridge was harrowing – I honestly thought we would be swamped and drowned that day, it was terrifying. He never waivered, he trusted his own judgement and we made it back into the bay with only the loss of my nerve.
In all these adventures it was the things that happened at night that were most exciting. ‘Strange things happen at sea’ it is said, and it gets even stranger at night. Phosphorescence, weird movements in the water, seabirds randomly attacking, all manner of freakish happenings occur on the sea at night. Inexplicable things. The lights from the shore, from lighthouses, beacons and other boats. It can all be quite magical without digressing into a Joseph Conrad passage about it. You get my drift(!).
So it was with great shock and bewilderment I listened to the first news report of the Manawanui disaster. How can such a big vessel get into that much trouble. When you pass close by a ship of that size, or bigger, in a 12ft aluminium dinghy, or even in something much larger like the Devonport ferries as we would do traversing the Waitemata and the shipping lanes, they are gigantic, looming monstrosities. The idea that they could be damaged, let alone sink, just because of some relatively shallow pieces of rock seems unthinkable. Yet here we are. We saw the video. She’s completely gone.
The press conference on Sunday at the Devonport Naval Base with Defence Minister Judith Collins and Chief of Navy Rear Admiral Garin Golding was far short of satisfactory, indeed it displayed a woeful complacency that afflicts every aspect of the New Zealand Government and perhaps also its armed services.
I will pose the questions and attempt to construct a scenario as best I can, I won’t labour the very obvious – that we don’t know all the facts yet – but some inferences may still be drawn. The notion the Captain is experienced is not true. She is less than two years in that role. Would we call someone with less than two years being a truck driver or pilot or trial lawyer very experienced just because they had previously had ten or even more years as a cab driver or a flight planner or a conveyancing lawyer? No, the relevant experience is still only less than two years. It does her no favours to overstate it as they have done.
The praise for her evacuation order is based on no fatalities, but this is premature – that’s only one metric and the facts aren’t in. What about her actions before and during this episode? They have enough information to praise her for one action but not enough to say either way on anything else. Remember Winston Churchill was responsible for the most successful evacuation of all time retreating from Gallipoli but was also rightly castigated in a board of inquiry into the invasion itself and consequently resigned.
To the substantive matters.
Addressing the position of the ship and the reason it was there. It was very close to the reef – the known very obvious reef. Sunset was at 6:24pm and the incident occurred therefore just as twilight was going to total darkness. The breaking waves of the reef (tide info below) would have been visible in the conditions that night. They said in the presser the ship was not doing a survey task at the time, however the “Initial Statement” put out by NZDF on Saturday night (05/10/2024) said ” The incident occurred on Saturday evening while conducting a reef survey.” So what is true? Was it or wasn’t it? Why would it be doing a survey so close to reefs at night?
Collins has said yesterday that the area was being surveyed for the purpose of the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting to take place next month. King Charles is staying at a resort nearby. We can conclude then that the reason the ship was there was to survey in advance of that and essentially for security purposes so the UK vessels (the patrol vessel HMS Tamar was in Apia and came to assist) could safely navigate close in to shore to protect His Majesty and other VIPs.
The chronology of events was covered in the press conference. Samoa local time:
6:46pm ship grounded.
7:52pm order to abandon ship given.
1am first people rescued from life rafts.
5:35am all people rescued.
6:40am smoke from ship, listing heavily.
9:00am capsized sinks below waterline.
However another report from NZ Herald’s Pasifika section editor referencing the statement on Youtube from the Samoan acting PM (in Samoan) has a slightly different timeline:
6:58pm Samoan authorities receive call from Rescue co-ordination centre in Wellington alerting them of distressed vessel. Samoa maritime unit dispatched immediately.
7:19pm Wellington calls again to say ship will be abandoned “onto life rafts due to the deteriorating situation with HMNZS Manawanui taking in too much water and was sinking.”
There are discrepancies between the times of when the ship was abandoned. At the press conference it was claimed an effort was made to get the ship off the reef and that failed. If that was correct – and many things in that presser almost certainly were not accurate so there is no reason to prefer their version over the Samoan report – then whatever was done to get the ship off the reef happened before 7:19pm.
I checked both weather and tides after hearing the news on Sunday and discussed this with an ex-military contact on Twitter. He couldn’t understand why they did not wait for high tide which would have been at approximately 8:30pm before attempting to get off the reef. The weather readings were not extreme – it wasn’t a storm – but there was gusting winds and a warning about currents. Was it the “heavy seas” claimed? The picture of one of the rescue craft taken that night showed it was not, the waves were not evident, and the conditions early at sunrise were only slightly choppy with evidence of a strong breeze from the smoke trail.
Addressing the fire and the smoke. That appears to have happened during the morning, not at the time of the grounding or before. Most likely the electricity, fuel and gas was not, or could not be, turned off properly or secured during the evacuation and that the incoming water and listing created the conditions for ignition. None of the personnel looked to have or reported to have burns or smoke inhalation. I think we can confidently rule out fire as a cause of this incident.
Collins has been saying yesterday on various media interviews that a “power failure” occurred and has put that out as a probable reason for the grounding. As everyone has replied: then drop anchor! That is the standard procedure and given the proximity to the reefs it would be the most obvious thing to do. The silence around details such as this do not inspire confidence, do they. Did they drop anchor(s) but it dragged? Were they so close to the reef that it made no difference? Or, more likely, they did not drop anchor because they just ran right into the reef? Power failure or not they were far too close to the reef.
To me the 7:19pm Samoan report is definitive – it was taking on water and sinking. Given the time delay between the ship and Wellington back to Samoa (12 minutes for the original grounding signal) then it may have only been a matter of half an hour. Collins saying in the presser they tried to get her off may also contradict the loss of power (unless bow thrusters involved?) however it may also be and maybe more likely that the manoeuvre to get her off is what ruptured the hull and made her sink – as discussed with my ex-military contact. Maybe the decision was not to wait for the high tide in two hours because the wind sheer was forcing her into a worse position? It is very murky. And no matter what the cause was 100% preventable.
Side issues.
The NZDF website states the core crew as 39, bunks 66. The NZDF initially said on its website there were 78 aboard. This changed later to 75 personnel. So why have more personnel than bunks? Were they sleeping in the same bunks in shifts? Why have so many aboard? Were some supposed to be taken off somehow – in tenders or in helicopters? Why so many?
Insurance was raised at the presser and neither of them claimed they knew. This must be a flat lie because there is no way the Chief of Navy at least would not know. It only came out yesterday that there is a form of insurance akin to third-party, but what does that mean? Collins really was drastically incompetent at that presser.
The statements from Collins and then later by the typically hyperbolic Luxon about the amazing, incredible, great response capabilities of Maritime NZ is also nonsense. When the Jodi F Millemium sunk and spilled oil off Gisborne a decade or so ago we had to wait a fortnight for a vessel to come from Queensland to deal with it. Nothing has changed that I have seen. The vaunted spill team is oversold – they will only be able to deal with a small scale event. They will spray dispersant if it is a big problem. As for salvage… the Manawanui was the Navy’s salvage vessel.
As for the inquiry, I suspect it may be prone to an arse-covering the likes of which we have come to expect. An incident with HMNZS Te Kaha smacking into the Kauri Point armament depot wharf earlier this year is a case study. I read the report. The ship overshot the wharf by 115 metres and the report says one of the two Ports of Auckland tugs “allegedly” didn’t follow orders. Sounds to me they tried to blame the tug, but the report writer doesn’t buy it. The report is critical of bad record keeping in the logs and notes the bridge voice recording couldn’t be retrieved (how convenient!). What are the chances nothing by way of evidence can be recovered from Manawanui to prove anything? Did Commander Gray take the log book with her (as required surely)?
Having laid that all out I’m glad all are safe. I saw the picture Luxon posted early this morning receiving the crew back in Auckland and he and Collins looked delighted. However it was a disaster – a humiliating and expensive fiasco – nothing of the “triumph” Collins had made it out to be. New Zealand and the Royal New Zealand Navy are an international laughing stock.
sinking ferry cash
Now sinking navy ship
all looking like a government sinking .
Then there is Luxon saying NZ will assist Samoa with the clean up .WTF he should be saying we will be doing the clean up ,not just assisting .Because it is now sunk he thinks the problem is gone .
My goodness you should have heard the vomit inducing words from Luxon this morning. He’s so proud of the ships crew. It goes without saying that it’s a massive relief no one died, but gushing with pride. FFS.
This is f’ing embarrassing. This is a survey ship in a Navy, not a bunch of weekend boat owners out for a spin.
Of course he finished by saying he’ll spend whatever to clean up the mess. But he will happily trash this country’s environment
He is becoming more tone deaf everyday .Rushed down to Dunedin to make out he cared then blamed the former government for a program his government rejected this year .Then he rushed back to Auckland to welcome the crew from the sunken ship making them out to be heroes when infact they are clearly incompetent idiots that just cost NZ over $100 million with more to come once Samoa sues us for environmental damage .
To flesh out your analysis Tim I offer the following facts:
The Manawanui is an ex Norwegian North Sea oil rig support vessel. It was designed to cope with some of the most hellish sea conditions in the world. It is fitting with two azimuth propellers that can rotate 360 degrees and three bow thrusters. These are powered by four independent diesel-powered generator sets. The overall aim of this configuration (plus software) is to allow the ship to remain geostationary under almost any conditions, to maximize maneuverability and provide system redundancy when something breaks down.
As for throwing out anchors, this probably isn’t correct. Most island reefs are on the edge of the abyss. If you go a couple of hundred meters from the reef you might find yourself in anything up to a thousand feet of water.
A lot of us are saying that this is the inevitable result of DEI. Time will tell I suppose.
Thank goodness it wasn’t a female captaining the Titanic on its maiden voyage. Oh wait…..
I would have thought that it needed to be a huge gash in the ship for it to sink – that’s me presuming they have things like watertight doors. But who knows. To be honest the only thing we know for sure about this mess is that someone’s naval career is almost certainly in the toilet.
Well that settles it. Clearly a Court of Inquiry is no longer required. Send the Commander (with her paltry two years of command experience) to the cells.
The author might do well to note that very very few Naval Commanders have much more than two years command experience in their careers. The Navy is unable to insure it ships (nor the Air Force its aircraft) because what insurer would cover something that has a chance of being shot at. Also the Defence Force should never be looking to an insurer for permission to act, it takes orders from the Government.
In the last 20 years the Royal Navy drove a serviceable destroyer onto a reef at Norfolk Island (not a laughing stock) the US Navy drove a Submarine into an underwater pinnacle (not a laughing stock). Even the Australians aren’t a laughing stock, despite losing several ships in peacetime.
The ship lost power in deep water. The ship drifted onto a reef. Got holed. Sank. Crew safe.
The real question is why did the ship lose power, and why couldn’t power be restored?
Can’t be too tough on female, or trans, captain, Ex PM Jenny Shipley didn’t go down with lack of honours for bad directorship. End of puns!
We have the downing of the luxury liner In Picton to compare. The loss of the ML from R. was caused by the seemingly incomprehensible? act of the Pictor pilot but there was much to know and learn from, and the present Manawanui the same.
https://www.nzgeo.com/stories/the-last-cruise-of-mikhail-lermontov/
[February 1986]. All things considered, the loss of the ship was a “lucky” disaster. One crew member lost his life, probably trapped in a forward hold when the ship struck rocks, but 329 crew and 408 passengers were rescued. This despite the fact that the captain did not consider he had a mayday situation on his hands, and so no formal rescue operation was mounted. Had it not been for the vigilance and courage of local fishermen and farmers who took matters into their own hands, or had the ship gone down in more exposed waters, the sinking of Mikhail Lermontov could have been a tragedy of Titanic proportions…
..At 8 A.M. that Sunday [February 16, 1986] they berthed at Picton’s Waitohi Wharf after an overnight crossing from the capital and a dawn entry through Tory Channel, where the Marlborough harbourmaster and pilot, Don Jamison, impressed the Russian captain and bridge crew with his deft manoeuvring in the narrow waterway…
The Marlborough Harbour Board had been going through tough times, with a bitter legal battle raging, and Don Jamison, as harbourmaster, pilot and acting general manager, had been working cruelly long hours as a result. He had been working that afternoon, too,..
Read on for as much information of the happening as I have seen. Then look at various comments here on the Manawanui that sound very knowledgable and we could get an idea of background to the latest mess.
It may have lost power but it has redundant systems and twin props. So did it lose the whole lot at once?
GS inadvertently makes a point further up: it was a double skinned hull which shouldn’t have holed so catastrophically unless it was driven under power on to the reef.
Lastly why was it off a lee shore at dusk?
A double hull will only protect the ship from flooding in a small collision. Being battered on a reef by large seas will get through both hull skins, and multiple compartments. The result is then determined by time and water ingress.
I’d be very surprised if the ship was under control when it grounded, they had good visibility, a sea running so any reef would have been clearly visible. Its more likely there was a massive machinery failure, close to shore, so the result was inevitable. Unlucky.
Good point. HMAS Melbourne, the last Air Craft carrier run by the aussies sank two friendly warships in collisions while they were operating it.
Yes, if loss of power is the reason it went on the reef that is what would be needed to know. So far nothing of substance will be known until inquiry as right now it’s only speculation as to the cause. Tim is right to point out discrepancies in information so far released, so what does that mean?
I’ve had dealings with the top Navy brass over the years, and they have 2 things in common.
They typically have MBAs, and are inherently evil. Perhaps stupid should be added in, as there is little else they understand apart from the concept of “value for money”, short for “value of money” when it applies to them.
I had no idea who Golding was, but judging from his specs, I guessed he was of the same ilk.
But just to check;
“He holds a Masters in Strategic Studies (Merit) and post grad Diplomas in Applied Management and Business”.
The whole upper echelon is a pack of brown nose neolibs set there to monetise and privatise even our military.
Wait for the call for a PPP to replace the Manawanui, which ironically translate to “big breath”, or sigh.
Well said Rangi. For years in commerce I avoided hiring MBAs if they couldn’t back up the theory with proven experience, common sense and flair for their speciality. Using MBA as an entrance criteria is a sure way to hire monkeys.
NZ stands for New Zoo then – back to the primates we are.
Yes the sanitation squad will be busy on the shredder and tape cleaning machine as we speak.
As for Luxon and Collins being delighted to have the crew back what a sick making performance only equalling Luxon being delighted to meet with the flood victims in Dunedin yesterday. Who the fuck is delighted to meet victims of a disaster or those that are responsible for costing the country millions.
Collins has shown a vacuousness only matched by being filmed praying in a church during an election campaign.
Yes making the crew out to be heros is a joke .If that is the case why did they scuttle bak to NZ ASAP instead of staying on to clen up the bloody mees they made .More like a bunch of cowards along with Collins and the fucken skin head .
Have you survived abandoning ship in rough seas .You realmare a walker some times
whats that got to do with anything idiot .They are part of our defense force so if they were in a bit of a scrap with the invading Chinese you would be happy if the packed up the tent and came back and went out for dinner .What a tosser they were not tourists they should have stepped up and stayed to clean up the mess .Some community work in the village would have been a good start .
yet no flies will set on Collins and she will hold the Capatain out to dry and be quite happy for her to be court martialled and lose her career, while Collins will carry on and receive her Ministers salary
Please tell why Colllins should be in the firing line.
she is the minister and as Tim said her actions at the press conference were unusual. But reading on other sites there are retards who are wanting the Captain jailed for this, what a vindictive society we live in
I’d suggest that this sort of incident is years in the making. Sometime commentator here Wayne Mapp was Minister of Defense in the Key government. My son was in the Navy. The boats were tied up, for whatever reason, I’d suggest funding. The significance was that without sea time a sailor could not get promotion and associated pay rises. Worse without sea time you don’t get experience, you merely turn up to “sit on the couch”. Moral declines, people leave to seek better options. From what I have heard from people still serving nothing much has changed.
I am waiting for Trevor to tell us it is all the fault of the previous government.
See comment down the post
Luxon’s interview on Breakfast this morning showed he does not care about the environment he doesn’t care about his own countries environment so why would he care about others. It’s all about the money to him, he is a disgrace, and we should be extremely embarrassed by this disaster as this has the potential to cost us millions.
Ah, here comes an unexpected emergency situation. Should we ring Jacinda?
well she would handle it better that Luxon the loser .At least she would be genuine unlike your lot of flakes .
Hi Gordon, read again. That’s what I meant.
She’s quite experienced with unexpected emergencies.
In Spades Joy
Because of the depth the vessel is likely at this could become a mini “Exon Valdez”. The reef and local fishers will cop it if 1000 litres of fuel plus other associated chemicals leak out.
Due to human error and or tech failure, Colonial NZs reputation is going to heh–sink–even further in Samoa.
It is actually closer to 1000 tonnes of fuel according to RNZ…
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/530082/nearly-1000-tonnes-of-diesel-on-sunken-manawanui
You cant drop anchor when the water on the outside of the reef is in excess of 2,000 meters deep.
See you infidel fools!
This is what happens when you let women drive!
Yeh you don’t lie!
Knowing the austerity being imposed by the CoC self generated funding crisis in Health and disability spending and damaging public servant cutbacks, and big election promises like Dunedin Hospital and the second Mt Victoria tunnel, disappearing like mirages before our very eyes.
It wouldn’t be suprising if Willis and Seymour want to garnishee the wages of all those on the bridge at the time the HMNZS Manawanui ran aground, to try and recoup some of the $100 miilion cost of the ship, or get MSD debt collectors to chase it up. And have the captain locked in the stocks, so he can be pilloried by villagers, or the political equivalent. If CoC bean counters are willing to cutback on toast given to new mothers, what will they do to those responsible for losing $100 million…Thumbscrews, the Rack, the Crusher?
Perhaps it will be replaced by an Australian built ship and they might approve of that and we might even get out of nuclear involvement. Perhaps that’s why our present/previous ship couldn’t steer clear.
US naval base being fast tracked at marsden point
“New Zealand and the Royal New Zealand Navy are an international laughing stock.”
And yet somehow we’re not. Because other people will wait to see the facts before writing a page of what seems to be largely conjecture.
I’d rather see the report from a Peter Mahon then a Ron Chippindale.
Sorry Peter Mahon is dead. And got a hard time over his report. You don’t get good things and true without some suffering so why don’t you get started yourself and find the basics to add the details to, instead of sitting back in your lordly manner waiting to the underlings to perform for you. The underlings are what keep this dingy dinghy floating doncha’ kno’. We have too many observers and frantic nitwits in this country; the calm, fact-gathering thinking people determinedly collecting together for the good of the country and people we are committed to is what is needed. Don’t patronise us.
Congrats, the crew have demonstrated enough talent to compete in Team NZ’s Americas Cup.
Someone has to be held accountable no matter what facts come out someone has made a mistake and it’s a very costly one.
Waiting for TVNZ , Newsroom, RNZ, Stuff and NZ Herald to confirm pakeha, licensed firearms owners, Ford ranger drivers, straight men, farmers and climate change are to blame.
Been waiting for some knob like you to make a stupid statement like that.
Keep your racist stupid shit to yourself. You just make yourself as silly as Luxon
Waiting on Nicola Willis to replace this Naval Vessel with a Toyota Corolla.
5 meter fryan
Good list there…the usual suspects, with some important omissions like NZ Defence…but never mind, it is not about blame it is more about containing or cleaning up.
No wonder the crew and others were gotten out of there so quickly, most on an NZ Defence plane and a few on commercial–because–the locals will not be impressed.
you forgot Carollas?
I’m only guessing the Navy are licensed firearm owners.
and there are retards out there wanting her to be jailed for this – total vindictiveness, I am an avid reader of the Daily Blog but I hope bradbury does not support any jailing of the Commander in his posts
Well, if the engines failed that’s…pretty pathetic and on the government. NZ will be getting a lot of side eye from Australia, UK and US over what’s happened here. And it will cost more than $100 million to fix this up.
And yes, congratulations to the captain and crew for surviving this sinking, no matter what caused it. That should go without saying you assholes who are scoffing at that. The NZ navy should send other crew back to Samoa to help… and probably will.(?) Obviously the NZ government will have to bear responsibility for the disaster and clean up.
Not so long ago the inter island ferry ran aground with people on board, did Luxon and co meet the ferry and welcome the sailors et.al home as hero’s no they were rubbished by all and sundry, the ferry didn’t sink and they made it home to port with egg on their faces with absolutely no welcoming committee, contrast that with Cluxon meeting the royal navy hero’s, me thinks in the next couple of days he will regret the decision because unfortunately someone f***ed up big time for both the taxpayers and the economy and environment of Samoa and Luxon meeting the hero’s ( of what you may ask ) is somewhat rubbing the islands nose in it . Someone will no doubt be charged with gross incompetence then watch them all run the other way for cover.
The trip down memory lane was great…just a bit sad that a ship that sounds like my neck of the woods has met the ending it has.
Wait? So this boat was operating near a reef that WASN’T surrounded by orange road cones?
Unfreakingbelieable!
If you wish me to pass acomment on the Labour government and the whole armed forces is that they caused a large number to leave due to using then as guards and servants on covid hotels . It was not the excitement they had signed up for.
As regard to the article you can imaging the glee from the writer as he allowed his venom for National to show in every word
Hi Trevor, please provide the evidence that the armed forces lost large numbers due to using them as guards and servants in covid hotels? Or is this just another example of you spewing your venom at Labour at every opportunity?
I have noted with many of your posts a distinct lack of good grammar.
Report in Feb 2021 Chief of Staff Andy Wood and Chief of Defence Kevin Short both reported about the high attrition rate of 10 per cent with many saying the covid deployment was the reason. It is common knowledge to anyone who can read a newspaper.
Re my grammar are you a lefty school teacher .
Stats NZ say the opposite and yes I am highly educated.
Which newspaper?
10% Attrition! My god! That’s awful!
Wait.
No it isn’t. 10% attrition is pretty normal for the Defence Force, and notably lower than it had been for some years during the 2010s (for example: https://figure.nz/chart/Q3ylk8CCIMj4UwF6 ). 10% attrition means that you can expect to get 10 years from each recruit, which is a pretty good result.
If you’ve ever been around soldiers (and sailors, and airmen), you’d be aware that one of the thing they all have in common is a world-class ability to moan about everything. Soldiers moaning about MIQ duty is only surprising if you regularly find water’s wetness surprising.
The original post by Tim is grimly amusing. He starts by explaining that he barely understands what salt water is, then proceeds to ignore that bit of faux-humility and offer some profoundly uninformed opinions:
* “Ooooh, it was dark! Scary!” uh, yeah. The defence force works at night. Running a ship is a 24/7 operation. Doing stuff at night is partly due to operational need, and partly due to the need to training people to do stuff at night.
* “Oooh, the Captain only had 2 years of experience! Scary!” uh, yeah. It’s only 2 years if you ignore the 2 decades that came before it. 2 decades of training for *this* role. Are there many other jobs you can think of that require a 2-decade apprenticeship?
* “Ooooh. I can count! There were more people than beds! Conspiracy!” uh, yeah. You’ve never been in the military, have you? Hot bunking is a thing. Having your own bed is nice and all, but it really isn’t a requirement. Having *any* bed isn’t a requirement – the floor is flat. Lie down there if you’re tired.
A heros wellcome for the crew ?fuck off they should have been left there to clean up the mess they left behind for fuck sake .The skin head and his bitch should have kicked their collective arses back to Samoa .Cowards the whole lot including skin head and judy or is that punch and judy .?
“The skin head and his bitch”
I wonder if you talk to people in real life like this, or it’s only behind the safety of a keyboard that women become “bitches”
Im up front mate heart on sleeve at all times .
well he is a skin head gang leader and gang leaders dont have women they have bitches .
Don’t try and justify your comments. Own your misogyny
Women you dislike are “bitches”. We get it.
Is that the same as our Police doing gang patch patrol Trev at a time when crime is at an all-time high, prisons numbers about to be increased, homicides spiraling, domestic violence on the rise as is homelessness and unemployment. Now do you think it could have anything to do with the COC policies or should we just blame it all on our previous government.
The gangs need breaking up after 6 years of ruling the roost .The police I know are happy with the powers they have to take them down.Crime is not growing and it is good news that crimals are being sent to prison. Domestic violence was increasing under Labour due to the pressure of inflation that their policies created.Homeless was worse under Labour and their fail home build program did not help .Nationals freeing up of red tape will turn the tide especially if some of the wealthy iwi come on board like the scheme in Hamilton.
It would help us to appreciate you Trev if you could give us the stats – eg crime is decreasing, from to.. And link. You probably have something solid to note but it is mixed with your 20th century conservative opinions. You could be helpful if you stick to facts and the source – but you probably like to hold forth too much. Are you a lay preacher at your religious institution? You may lay down to repeated verses and common opinion, we want more at the end of our era, and hurting with it.
He can’t Greywarbler, it’s just uneducated waffle.
Does the captain who sunk the ship get demerit points
Thats way too much for TREV to digest .Where is bob the fist ?hi AI must have craped out
Well I have hopes that Trev will go further in his thinking rather than repeating the old saws (sores) of conservative 20th century NZ politics. We all have to change some little while still holding to the worthwhile lines of thought to take us into our uncertain future. Perhaps he could be a bellwether to the rest of the money-first neoliberalist sheep heading towards the cliff, and lead us down the path less trodden which now we must find and follow.
I’m getting ‘poetic’ but that’s necessary as the present is leading to a rigid unimaginative path of ‘mechanonauts’ and tech-internet zombies, emaciated or bloated figures from mental or physical exhaustion and various abuses, as from a concentration camp.
Something that might be helpful in understanding:
Full article: Towards a post-neoliberal social policy
Taylor & Francis Online
https://www.tandfonline.com › … Whakamāoritia tēnei whārangi
17 Hūr 2023 — This paper tentatively elaborates a post-neoliberal framework for social policy and welfare reform.
And others on google with keywords: ‘human living authentic social policies compared to neolliberalism’.
We are all in this fog together. I’m just blowing my foghorn of warning at present, a warning and a call to find others on a similar quest.
(Minister) Collins said she looked up the details of one of what she called the “keyboard warriors” attacking (Yvonne) Gray online. “He’s from Melbourne, in Australia, commenting in a very negative way on our Royal New Zealand Navy, and particularly the women. “I looked to see what else I could find about him,” she said, and the man was a truck driver. “These are the sorts of people I’m calling out and I’m happy to call them out for as long as it takes to stop this behaviour. (https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO2410/S00067/collins-targets-armchair-admirals-over-misogynistic-attacks)
Just how did Minister Collins identify a person commenting online? Was the IP matched to the individual?
Is it because Minister Collins is also in charge of the secret service and defense intelligence?
Identifying someone criticising female navy captains is hardly a national security issue within the remit of these agencies. So unless the commenter put up their real details while posting, then explanation from Minister Collins is needed, perhaps via oia inquiries. Some proper transparency is prudent in the wake of the orivida and dirty politics past legacy.
whats her problem with truck drivers ?Her gang leader says we should all become digger drivers .Digger drivers need truck drivers to get them to the job and cart what ever they are digging .So clearly truck drivers are more important than she .
The elephant in the front room
It’s grey and it’s big and it can’t be missed or ignored.
Thank God it is out of sight now!
This may have been the thinking behind trying to get the ship off the reef rather than leaving it stranded there, as major highly visible embarrassment, that couldn’t be ignored, right in front of a globally important international conference, attended by high profile dignatories, like Prince Charles, and global media.
Where did the order come from to try and get the ship off the reef?
Was it the captain’s decision?
Or was she ordered to by higher ups?
When did the water start coming in?
Before of after the ship was on the reef?
Did the first attempt at the arse covering, begin when the ship sank beneath the waves, instead of being left on the reef, for later recovery and refloating?
From Tim Selwyn:
…I checked both weather and tides after hearing the news on Sunday and discussed this with an ex-military contact on Twitter. He couldn’t understand why they did not wait for high tide which would have been at approximately 8:30pm before attempting to get off the reef.
More interesting than who did what is who gets the salvage rights?
Fifteen men on the dead man’s chest—
…Yo-ho-ho, and a bottle of rum!
Drink and the devil had done for the rest—
…Yo-ho-ho, and a bottle of rum!