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  1. Why do people who just apply “facts and analysis” based on other Western orientalist facts and analysis think they have something unique and read-worthy to offer? A critically aware person would have stopped themselves from writing this realising “I have absolutely nothing meaningful to add to the debate.”

    A far more interesting read, and exercise for anyone who considers themself “expert” enough to comment (never heard of a Pat O’Dea) is to use Putin’s assertion and treat them as if they are CORRECT to critically assess our own assertions and assumptions.

    1. Your opinion that “I have absolutely nothing meaningful to add to the debate.” Is wrong, because, evidently, I have contributed something.

      When Putin says that since the end of the Cold War. “New centers of power have since emerged, and have the right to protect their own systems, economic models and sovereignty.”

      I don’t accept that Russia has any right to impose its own systems and economic models on other sovereign nations.

      You quite obviously don’t agree with my analysis that the motive behind Russia’s invasion and war in Ukraine are capitalist/imperialist motives. But rather than putting up any counter argument, (and not being able to censor my argument), you suggest that I should self censor. “A critically aware person would have stopped themselves from writing this…..”

      You say you have never heard of me. So what? I have never heard of you.
      But because I haven’t heard of you, doesn’t mean that I think you have no right to express your opinion, and I welcome you to take this opportunity to do so.

      You say, Magician, that I should, “use Putin’s assertion and treat them as if they are CORRECT.”

      I have one question for you Magician

      Why?

      (Pull that rabbit out of your hat if you can).

    1. John White June 20, 2022 at 9:11 am
      Cry more. The liberation of the world from American beasts is coming.

      Wrong!

      World War III for a new imperialist re-division of the world is coming.

      1914 – 1918 The First global imperial conflict between the superpowers of the time over the imperialist division of the world cost 18 million lives,

      1939 -1945 The second global imperial conflict between the superpowers of the time for the imperialist division of the world cost 63 million lives.

      The third global imperial conflict between the superpowers for the imperialist division of the world promises to be much more deadly

      The liberation of the world from American imperialism will not come from another imperialism.

  2. Pat, you really are an unreconstructed old Marxist, which I suspect you are proud of. Thats too big and argument which I wont go off subject with but it shows in your worldview.

    Couple of points.
    I don’t accept that Russia has any right to impose its own systems and economic models on other sovereign nations.
    So where is the Bear threatening to or running around imposing political and economic systems? Its not their stated aim in Ukraine, and you’d have to ask what’s in it for them? The cost of propping up the economic basket cases of the Soviet empire, the Baltics, Poland, the Balkans, was that not a lesson learned?

    World War III for a new imperialist re-division of the world is coming
    Really? I’d hardly describe Russia as imperialist or expansive, Putin has been pushing a multi polar world as has China. I’d agree to imperialist economic ambitions from the Leninist CCP, who’d have guessed something that has its origins between Marx’s ears would become imperialist. That said they too recognise an emerging multipolar world that excludes the old empire.

    1. “So where is the Bear threatening to or running around imposing political and economic systems? Its not their stated aim in Ukraine… Nick J

      That is exactly their aim in Ukraine.
      The stated aim of Russia’s invasion and war was to de-nazify Ukraine, which is the Kremlin’s code phrase for regime change. The Kremlin did not like the political and economic system in Ukraine and labeled it “Nazi”. And then set out to change it by force. If that is not imposing political and economic systems on other countries, then what the hell is it?

      …”you’d have to ask what’s in it for them? The cost of propping up the economic basket cases of the Soviet empire, the Baltics, Poland, the Balkans, was that not a lesson learned?”

      The Russian Burden eh Nick?

      Nick you ask what’s in it for them? You might as well ask, Nick, what was in it for the British Empire or any other imperialist nation. The apologists for British imperialism claimed that the countries they invaded and conquered and enslaved were being done a favour, ‘The White Man’s Burden’ they called it., where in reality the British Empire was extracting trillions from its colonies, turning once previous self sufficient countries into, to use your term, Nick, ‘basket cases’.

      What’s in it for them? For Russia oil prices have never been as high, Russia the world’s biggest grain exporter has just knocked its biggest competitor out of the world market.

      Then there is the direct looting of Ukraine cultural treasures and artworks, and and agricultural and manufactured goods, by the Russian Federation.

      https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2022/may/27/ukraine-russia-looting-museums

      https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ship-take-metal-mariupol-russia-kyiv-decries-looting-2022-05-28/

      Another bonus for the Putin regime, is the suppression of all internal dissent in Russia under emergency war powers.

      All in all Imperialism is very good for the Russian Federation. And it will be even better if they ever manage to get full control of all of Ukraine’s grain fields and factories.

      It ain’t gonna happen.

  3. Putin says the west don’t give a damn about Ukraines economy or it’s people…….as he lays waste to Ukrainian cities and shells indiscriminately. His version of giving a damn leaves a fair bit to be desired

    1. Have your nazi buds in the Zelensky regime been shelling (supposedly Ukrainian, they claim) civilians in the Donbass for seven years out of ‘love’, Wheel?

      1. John White June 21, 2022 at 6:25 am
        “Have your nazi buds in the Zelensky regime been shelling (supposedly Ukrainian, they claim) civilians in the Donbass for seven years out of ‘love’,”

        So much to unpack;

        Nazi buds?

        Really?

        (supposedly Ukrainian….)?

        Again, really?

        What is being implied here? That Ukrainians are actually Russians?

        Part of Putin’s narrative is that Ukraine is a ‘supposed’ country and that Russia, in Putin’s words, is ‘taking back’ Russian lands.

        https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/10/putin-compares-himself-to-peter-the-great-in-quest-to-take-back-russian-lands

        And finally;

        “….the Zelensky regime been shelling (supposedly Ukrainian, they claim) civilians in the Donbass for seven years,”
        Where did you get that claim from?

        John, do you have any evidence that the Zelensky regime has been shelling civilians?

        What I mean is the sort of evidence we have of Russia shelling civilians. You know, video of smashed apartment buildings, witness testimony. That sort of thing.

        Anything?

        Nothing?

        I thought so.

        https://shirazsocialism.wordpress.com/2022/06/20/the-fantastical-tale-that-the-ukranian-army-killed-14000-ethic-russians-in-dobas-between-2014-and-2022/

  4. Pat, I am sure it has not escaped you that the situation of Ukraine vis a vis Russia is very similar to that of Ireland vis a vis England in the early twentieth century. A lot of shared history, much of it bitter, and a lot of shared language and culture, about which the Irish side had a degree of ambivalence, and a population deeply divided between nationalists and unionists.
    Certain Irish nationalists made Zelensky’s error when they decided to join forces with Imperial Germany against Britain. The end result was bloody repression and a partitioned country. There is a strong moral case to be made against NATO and the way it has exploited the suffering of Ukrainians to “weaken Russia” but there is also a very practical argument which says that for Ukraine to ally itself with NATO was a fatal error of judgement which will set the cause of Ukrainian nationalism back by decades. If Ireland had gone with Germany in 1939 there would be no independent state of Eire today. Neutrality was the only policy that made sense for Ireland, and it is the only policy which would have made sense for Ukraine.
    Partition is now the best that Ukraine can hope for, and the western world should stop heaping misery on a people who have suffered too much already.

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