Parents refusing vaccinated blood for baby’s surgery appear in court
A hearing has been set to hear evidence in a dispute between Health NZ and parents of four-month-old baby that needs heart surgery.
Ok.
Before we all start immediately slicing each others throats out over this issue of these parents refusing their infant a medical procedure using vaccinated blood, let’s all agree on the most important issue at hand, and that is getting a sick wee baby the urgent operation it needs to survive.
Oh I appreciate everyone with an arsehole has an axe to grind on the wider antivaxx arguments this case throws up and how desperately we want to smash the opposing perspective, and those are important fights and debates to be had, but let’s all remember there is a sick infant here who urgently needs an operation and the fastest way we can get to that moment, that’s the best outcome right?
So those are the established rules ok, slaughter each other with appalling verbal violence and crass grandstanding, I would expect nothing less in our weirdly passive aggressive Kiwi culture, but the only thing that truly matters right now is that a sick baby gets a medical procedure it needs to survive.
Agreed?
Cool.
Begin.
What the fuck are these crazy fucking parents thinking?
They trust the medical science to do the operation but don’t trust the medical science that says using vaccinated blood is safe? It’s like believing magic is keeping your plane flying while you are complaining about the slow wifi!
Their argument that vaccinated blood is a risk to their sick baby who urgently needs an operation to survive is to medicine what flat earth belief is to Geology.
But I can’t be angry at these parents.
You’ve seen their faces, I’ve seen their faces.
They are desperately frightened people who are making a choice out of fear and ignorance.
I can’t hate on people who are frightened and ignorant.
There but for the grace of God go I.
The truth is that fear and ignorance is not a defence to this madness, but parental consent is.
It doesn’t matter what the rational of the parents are, they have the total right as parents to not consent to invasive medical procedures for any reason they like.
I passionately disagree with these parents, but they have the right to say no.
We are a liberal progressive democracy, we protect the individual from the ceaseless power and strength of the State with intrinsic rights.
Your right to say no to medical procedures you don’t consent to is an intrinsic right of the Human Being.
These parents have the right to say no for whatever stupid reason they like, and we have to acknowledge that.
The Parents have put up a ‘solution’ that would see volunteer matched blood donors providing unvaccinated blood. This is in breach of protocols and would begin an enormous flood of these fruitcakes wanting special treatment, something I think we can all agree would be rewarding stupidity when we barely have the resource to do the basics, HOWEVER this has fast become a political issue as much as it is now a medical issue, whether we like it or not, and I fear how this could spin out of control if we don’t handle it with the nuance it demands.
The antivaxx movement have been desperate to find a cause since the restrictions came off, they tried to bond with Groundswell to keep the activism alive and are desperate for a new cause to rally around.
This issue framed as the nightmare scenario of Cindy’s Nazis injecting medical experiments into babies against the parents consent will go down as well as an Incel slam poet at a feminist folk song festival.
Within the antivaxx, Qanon, Sovereign Sherif, white supremacy fraternity, this issue will be the existential threat of evil they’ve convinced themselves Jacinda represents.
Fear grifter Liz Gun is right beside these parents and will be live streaming everything.
Especially the uplift.
I don’t think we are appreciating how much this has the potential to erupt into violent radicalisation.
Most NZers would be surprised how often MSD or Ministry of Health have to legally step in to take guardianship to compel a medical operation and so there is a very clear and direct legal path that has been well walked by these powers.
There are limitations to a Parents wishes when it comes to consenting medical procedures, and that is right up until that decision puts the Childs life at risk.
The speed with which this will see trial and immediate legal rights passed to uplift the sick baby will surprise and infuriate these antivaxx communities in a way that could easily spill over into political violence.
The State has the power to use Guardianship to impose medical procedures, of that there is no doubt, but if there is a way that can be found to use these volunteers for this one specific case, then that would get the operation done as quickly as possible WHILE avoiding a god damned nightmare scenario of a live streamed uplift as the Police literally drag an infant out of its parents arms and all the emotional turmoil that radicalises.
I know we shouldn’t be pandering to these lunatics wishes, and yes it opens the door for more of these fruitcakes pulling these stunts, but if we can accomodate these parents, we avoid the propaganda coup we would be handing the dangerous fringes at a time when their movement has lost momentum and purpose.
If you can’t see the danger of Liz Gunn live-streaming an emotionally volatile infant uplift from screaming parents arms because we shouldn’t budge on giving them what they want with unvaccinated blood, then perhaps its you who has become inflexible on this issue.
Give these parents what they want with the unvaccinated blood, get that baby the operation it urgently needs and avoid a propaganda coup for the fringe feral right that has the possibility of exploding into political violence.
De-escalate this, de-escalate this now.
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I wouldn’t want to leave a personal comment as I am fully vaccinated and I am not a parent but I do feel that an outright refusal is wrong. Maybe that’s because, as I say, I’m fully vaxxed and have no kids.
How can you critique another person’s decision on something so controversial as this particular issue? I would say, let’s just allow the courts to decide.
Fuck the children. They can take care of themselves. Watch this! https://youtu.be/FcCLAO2PyoY
Russell Brand:
“Vandana Shiva joined me on Stay Free recently. We discussed complex issues to do with the agricultural and farming industry, possible solutions and the foods that are causing disease around the world…”
Choice not chance determines destiny.
Whether the child lives or dies will be ultimately at the hands of the baby’s parents choice.
OTOH if the govt health dept forces this and the baby gets myocarditis.. expect civil war.
And if the baby lives and goes onto a wonderful life without myocarditis ?
What will the repercussions be then, This won’t get by the mods and Fantail?
The repercussions should be exactly what they are, they made a choice and it all worked out. Just like every other person makes in their lives from time to time eg; the choice to do something risky or to follow their dreams, whatever. You take your chances and live with the consequences good or bad especially if it affects someone else’s life.
There has been no evidence of myocarditis in kids. It occurs the older teens and young adults.
Quite correct but let’s not put facts in front of fear and conspiracy.
But the corollary to that must be manslaughter charges should the child die?
I am not suggesting that in this instance the kid would die but similar has happened in the States.
I am for personal choice but I am also for taking responsibility for your actions. Similarly, I support the anti vaxxers in having a choice but I also think that if their choice lead to them losing their job, then they have to also accept that that is the consequence of their choice. Hard as it may be.
And I think where parents are deciding for a child and they get it wrong, they should face consequences.
Re Fantail: The parents aren’t deciding against surgery though, the only party holding up the surgery is the health ministry.
Well, the parents AND that crazy bitch lawyer they’ve been captured by who is more concerned about her ego and fame than the welfare of a 4month old infant.
Evil really.
Sue Grey and Liz Gunn – lethal influencers.
Well, yes. There’s an immediate solution so why is any time being wasted in court?
But also why do we immediately believe BloodNZs “medical science”? Their FAQ on the matter states the vax breaks down almost immediately anyway and also they filter it out. If the vax broke down immediately it would be useless, at best it’ll be quickly converted to spike protein which will still be in blood the next day (when collection is allowed). Maybe they can filter it but I don’t believe it, because they already think breakdown is enough so why are they filtering something they don’t think is there?
The spike protein – real and vax induced – has been medically proven to cause heart issues. And what is it this baby needs, heart surgery ffs. Why take the risk?
There’s been so much govt psyops and bullshit around the vax, they had to redefine “vaccine” for fucks sake, I’m not believing BloodNZs half a paragraph as science.
Hold the phone! On one hand you say why do we immediately believe BloodNZs “medical science”?
Then on the other hand you say, “The spike protein – real and vax induced – has been medically proven to cause heart issues.”
Medically proven? Which one is it, or are you being selective to suit your argument? Surely you can’t have it both ways, “for fucks sake”.
There are multiple things that people eat and drink that are medically proven to cause heart disease yet the population for the most part think that the said items are healthy. We have no idea how safe the blood is from the proposed donors or if it is even the right type so some difficult decisions will need to be made.
I agree to some of your points. Despite a persistent fringe of anti-vaxxers for years now there has been accomodation that has not resulted in a flood of them demanding such a thing and I don’t see why this even smaller set of people (because of such extraordinary circumstances) would do that either.
Of course the % of people refusing this particular vaccine is much larger than the old anti-vaxxers, including people who have willingly been vaccinated for many other diseases, a fact that the pro-Pfizer brigade might want to acknowledge for once now that the heat of Public Health Disaster is off the table.
Oh and BTW, although there is no evidence that the blood of C-19 vaxxed people is a threat I wouldn’t get too cocky, especially when you look at the VAERS database on C-19 vs all other vaccines since 1990
Rather pointless making assumptions based on one graph considering the numbers of people getting vaccinated in the last two years would far out number the previous ten years.
Utter nonsense. Look up how many people get the flu vaccine each year in the US; 100’s of millions of doses for decades, with very few entries into VAERS. The Covid-19 is unquestionably by far the most reported vaccine of all time, by every single metric (including if you adjust adverse effects by the number of doses given).
Not to forget all the anti vax nutters that have decided to post false adverse effects of covid vaccinatiins on the site but I guess this is an unwinnable arguement so I admit defeat.
That graph shows numbers 15x and more than the standard since 1990. The C-19 dosed population is not 15x greater than that of the tens of millions of kids each year plus tens of millions of flu shot adults.
WRT to the anti-vax nutters flooding the zone, they’re also not 15x greater. Finally here’s the online reporting processs for VAERS. It’s detailed and time-consuming, not YouGov.
Lets not mention all the anti vax nutters who falsified VAERS reports for what ever reason.
Probably in a large part due to the hype around the whole issue. How many people just never bothered to report “adverse events” in the past fir other vaccines ? Also what is an adverse event? They can be known events such as soreness at the ejection site etc.
Pity it is not one of the parents waiting on an urgent heart op rather than a defenceless child. At least they could decide their own fate from an adult perspective rather than projecting their world view on an innocent.
This is a classic “slippery slope” situation. Various “fruitcakes” as Martyn aptly puts it, could start asking for “only my Aunties blood”, or only “white persons blood”…if the authorities cave in on this.
That is also my understanding of the situation.
Many were prepared to sacrifice lives from the outset of covid. Thousands of lives. There were to be no lockdowns, no mask mandates, no vaccination requirements. We were to have an ‘open slather’ environment in which the most vulnerable would have been stricken.
(Closest two US States to us in population, Alabama and Sth Carolina, have 20,600 and 18,700 deaths. We have 2,200.)
No doubt those in the van now in this terrible situation, espousing the preciousness of life and the preservation of it, were on the bandwagon investing no preciousness in the life of others a short while ago. (I presume the attitude was one of “it’ll be someone else or someone else’s family” who suffers and dies, it won’t be us.)
They ignored or accepted mass deaths so recently and they’re on their bullshit run again.
The words ‘lunatics, fruitcakes, evil, and fear grifter’ are used. Fair enough. Let’s call it as it is.
Good to know there were no deaths from lockdowns. The current massive increase in deaths-from-all-causes above the usual mortality stats that is being observed world wide is surely a coincidence.
Fear absolutely, ignorance? Yes but a bigger factor is mistrust.
Mistrust is what drives people to these “alternative” viewpoints, and a fair chunk of that blame rests with the podium of truth.
Hope the wee kid gets treated either way.
Yep
Keepcalm, the mother is a midwife so no excuses for ignorance there. The covid vaccination saved lives, at this point in time there are no mandates apart from the medical profession . This is a ploy to keep the anti vaccination zealots in front of the news. What is despicable is using an unwell baby to make their point . They now should be seen for what they really are f***k wits.
Yeah, the parents are batshit crazy, but the health service is intransigent on the matter – especially when blood was offered by the family. Their excuse will be “we don’t want to set a precedent” which is just weak leadership hiding behind a rule.
Andrew, are you prepared to pay extra taxes to set up the systems required once the precedent is set?
How many of the protestors would refuse blood or organs from vacinated people if their life depended on it?
This whole thing is being driven by misi formation, it’s a great pity those spreading it can’t be charged. I feel for the already overstretched specialists and nurses who have had to spend precious time trying to convince the parents of the science.
Sadly, it’s not entirely misinformation. The latest research shows that the vaccine is elevating pericarditis levels in males, especially young males.
Now we’re through the pandemic we each need to do our own personal risk assessment: Balance the symptoms of another covid infection versus the risks associated with the vaccine. It mainly depends on age and physical condition with young fit people being better off taking their chances with the virus while the infirmed might be better off getting a booster.
and babies needing life saving surgery being taken from hospital to to be paraded for political purposes, where does that sit in the risk assessment?
Well the baby will require medical attention which involves risk, perhaps the parents are better off risking not having surgery at all, given your analogies Andrew.
Simple. Just get those unvaxxed to donate blood! How hard is that. Instead of the bs hysteria. It’s getting boooooooring!
I think you are right again Tane. This is getting boringly predictable, you must be prepared for a less than 100% result sometime.
What can be said, cave dwelling troglodytes or philistines.
Jehovahs Witnesses or some such have refused blood transfusions for their children and been allowed to make up their own minds. Are these people religious or just want to live on another planet or in the sky?
“It doesn’t matter what the rational of the parents are, they have the total right as parents to not consent to invasive medical procedures for any reason they like.
I passionately disagree with these parents, but they have the right to say no.”
For themselves, well, OK, if they’re that crazy.
For their child, no. They do not have that right. They do not own their child.
Why is this being politicised here?
I’m so sick of the endless public polarisation. This was never a left-right issue. Neither is this particular crisis a left-right matter.
(To circumvent the pointless knee-jerk reaction, I’d like to point out that I am myself jabbed.)
But is a matter of the State (Public Health Crisis) vs the Individual and that does break down into Left vs Right.
Your response pre-supposes that the state’s response was correct. Yet that very assumption is what is at issue.
Beliefs about the correct response were never a left versus right matter.
I feel like I need to ask: Do you see the difference?
Actually I think the state’s responses were wrong across the board but even I did consider them to be correct it would still obviously devolve into a left versus right matter because those responses all involved state mandates (lockdowns, social distancing, masks and then the vax) and the left support state mandates and control on everything outside of sex and drugs, while the right increasingly does not – though there were plenty of Nat/ACT folk who did and I regarded them as having betrayed their own principles re the State vs. the Individual – especially fucking ACT.
As this guy says
One of liberalism’s more annoying tics is its belief, probably genuine, that liberalism is so enlightened and noble it is above politics. Conservatism is grubby and political. Liberalism is science, reason, human rights, etc.
I’m very left, Tom and I don’t support state control of everything outside of sex. This is not the left as I understand it, but infantalisation and the preference to not think or the inability to think. These problems cross the political spectrum.
I hope Liz Gunn and Sue Grey can live with themselves if this baby dies .
Spot on Trevor. Let’s not forget Sue Grey is a proven bullshitter when it comes to deaths related to vaccination
Yes Trevor, their true colours on open display, risking a baby’s life for political purposes.
Of course they can. Insanity does that to a person.
I’m confused, the Chinese covid protestors are being portrayed as freedom fighters by the media but those in other countries are portrayed as dangerous antivax conspiracy child abusers.
Talk about stupid… NZ health that is, they don’t want to set a precedent then why not quietly take blood from the 10 screened donors and let them have unvaccinated blood. But no , now it’s blown up all over media. Both sides want the operation to go ahead, this is an argument over what blood is used … Nz health can easily facilitate this, but nope they have to be cocks.
So once they win this court case, the next time this issue becomes headlines it will be from anti vax parents who take the kid and hide to avoid treatment which has Happened countless times before with the religious dicks.
Now that it’s out in the open if the bureaucrats had any brains they’d state publicly “ we can investigate facilitating this service for those who wish for this type of blood but we need HEAPS of un vaxxed blood to see how viable this is” my bet is you’ll have the anti vaxxers come out by the thousands… how useful since blood donation is at historically low levels since the covid out break.
It also begs the question … had this been a Māori family who demanded Māori only blood … would they be dragged through the courts ??? I fucking doubt It, the request would be quietly accommodated and the woke fest would continue to roll down the road.
Kirk 28, do know for a fact that Maori would get Maori blood on request, or are you making it up and spreading misinformation?
Peter .. I said “imagine” if a Māori family “had” requested. Quick on the phone to your misinformation department set up by these hapless woke tards ! The biggest misinformation is spread by this crappy govt.
Making up scenarios in an effort to support your views is exactly how conspiracy theories start.
It’s not the goverment giving information but the medical professionals, but I guess you aren’t interested in the facts.
Hi Peter .. you are real cool.
Let me guess you are a bureaucrat working for a department with a newly minted mostly made up “Te Reo” name. You completely failed in comprehension of my comment or maybe purposely did so… and then go on the moral offensive about “ohh ya gotta be careful what you say, make sure no nuance is used make sure it’s dumb enough for people like me to understand .. thank god we have the misinformation office (aka If we don’t like what you say we won’t let you say it dept)… grow up stop being a woke puss this isn’t student politics and you aren’t the library monitor anymore.
0/10 for your guesses; your bleat explains a lot.
Lol at least I made an educated guess… you completely made up what I said and then started crying …. “Misinformation!!! Unsafe dialogue! Where’s my safe place!!!” You are the perfect labour lamb.. drinking the cool aide is one thing but people like you have it dribbling down your goateed chin and belching it up all over the joint.
Kirk28, didn’t seem educated’ to me; I think you have ended up down your own rabbit hole.
Would it head it court?Go on Kelly try answering that question?
SK,????? Please try again with your question.
Why not let the parents and the 30 or so donors split the cost of keeping the vaccinated and unvaccinated blood separate. I know these people will balk at that and accuse the system of discriminating against them but fuck them. Why should the tax payer pay for their stupidity. It’s either that or the state will take the baby and deal with it. The opportunity to contribute would call these fuck wits out and test their beliefs. If they aren’t prepared to contribute we will know they’re hypocrites as well as fuck wits.
Next they dont want to live in houses built or rented by vaxers, eat food handled by vaxers or be employed by vaxers, Lets stick them all on an island, say Auckland Island…… there they can be free from all us vaxers.
I think you will find the sentiment is the other way around….
I think you will find you’re hopelessly wrong XXX.
If we pander to this sort of ignorant stupidity (and politically motivated grandstanding) we will see an escalation of it like we can not presently imagine.
The stupidity here is that during the operation many drugs will be administered, have they vetted all them and found them ‘acceptable’? Why pick on this issue.
If you want a standard of care not provided by the state, go private. Millions of people would give anything to be offered the chance this baby has been offered – time for the court to do right by the child and stop allowing this baby to be used for political grandstanding.
I can only guess at if all those now offering blood are regular donors?
let them get it done privatly if they object that much but should (god forbid) anything happen to the kid, I don’t wanna hear 1 word of ‘why did it happen to my little angel?’ because the answer is ‘you belive in unscientific rubbish’…..and that’s it…full stop.
We agree on something Must be xmas spirit time
maybe antforce trudeaus concern as pm and leader of his country was US invaders crossing the border subverting his country
“They trust the medical science to do the operation but don’t trust the medical science that says using vaccinated blood is safe? It’s like believing magic is keeping your plane flying while you are complaining about the slow wifi!”
I don’t think the analogy stands up. Medicine is a big field. GPs, numerous specialists, immunologists, haematologists, urologists, anesthetic technicians, surgeons, and more – specialised fields with one group not necessarily having another’s expertise. In a perfect world they’d all talk to each other. Or some all-encompassing eye bringing everything together. But probably not. Its not quite the same as trusting the pilot while rubbishing the wifi.
Yip take the child off these negligent conspiracy theorists, so that they understand ‘consequences’
Polishing your jack boots for the next lockdowns?
How the Red Cross used to view this issue before the medical establishment, which is arguably as powerful as the militarily industrial complex, brought them into line. Step 2 being the key passage here.
https://web.archive.org/web/20210612044557/https://www.redcrossblood.org/content/dam/redcrossblood/docs/covid19_newdonor_vaccine_guide.pdf
Fair comment, Mr Bradbury!
EXCEPT for saying “‘there but for the grace of God…” WHAT??!! You could have had the grace (!!) to at least have given God a lower case g, given your preferred belief in some sort of alternative magical flying wizard, or somesuch, even if I think you just might be half-right.
Consistency, Mr Bradbury, consistency, please!
Do you really think that Sue Grey or Gunn would miss the chance of getting more publicity for their demented cause ?
As there is no such think as pure Maori blood then your other arguement is as full of bullshit as Grey and Gunn’s is .
QAnon, really, at this stage is only discussed by total insane liberal nutters without anything. The blood is available and there is no reason to treat this baby with unvaxxed blood not at all. So really what is the issue?
Well the New Zealand system provide choice. Your taxes provide public health insurance and your child receives the same standardised free medical care provided to every citizen. If you want something different say hotel level room service or vintage blood you can go private.
But political managment should have seen this quietly handled.
Why is the country so short of medical staff when there are so many contributing to this site? Surely it’s time that Sue Grey and Liz Gunn were made accountable for their actions? What are you agin Sue– whatcha got?
Well this is no different than donating an organ to a relative so why is the “STATE” not allowing it? Bullocks that it’s expensive. If there are donors, there is no reason not to allow family donor blood. The care the parents will give outweighs the care the state offers. How is it suddenly an issue to donate to a family member? This country has gone batshit crazy…..nothing actually makes any sense any more because many bought the COVID narrative hook, line, and sinker.
Because allowing people to directly donate organs means that people donate organs they otherwise wouldn’t to randoms. This frees up randomly donated organs to those whose family and friends won’t do them the same favour. Blood is not a rare commodity.
Poat my comments you spineless person
see you are posting all the fuckwits who support your idiocracy what a fucking spineless piece of shit
There is no point in delaying the inevitable as there is no way this will be the last case if they are granted the exception. Next up: white supremacists insisting they get only Aryan+ for wee Adolf. Rip the bandaid off with this case I reckon.
indeed nicko aryan/maori blood could be the next step(there are extremist knobs in both camps)
I don’t want my vaxxed blood going to the Donald Trumpers of this site.
I disagree. We can’t set a precedent of using public health money catering to the scientifically baseless whims of people who are detached from reality. What’s the stop a racist from demanding white blood? Considerably more challenging is the legal question of whether to forcibly uplift or to leave the parents to decide whether to have the operation on the terms available to everyone else or not. Nobody wants to see the baby come to harm because of his parents unhinged beliefs, but the alternative carries real social risk as well for the reasons identified by Martyn.
I agree Leighton. It is not unique that the court has to decide in the best interest of a child – the difference here is the media attention created by the political players. Sad that a baby’s health is being put at risk by prolonging this saga.
Hello, why can’t anyone get pure blood, untainted by disease or man made drugs!?
If she has people willing to donate clean blood WTF is the issue.
It appears we have a bunch of fucktards dictating how you should protect your baby …
FFS I hope there are no downstream health issues associated with the Fizzer stab. .. that makes the fucktards look worse!
it appears the child has already received a mixed blood transfusion for an emerrgency so already has the parents invented nasties….clearly an anti vax stunt…who is funding these parents.
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