Ummmmmmmm. So are we at war with Russia?
Russia-Ukraine war: Off-duty New Zealand soldier killed in Ukraine
A Kiwi soldier has been killed in Ukraine, the New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF) says.
The soldier, who was on a period of leave without pay at the time, was not on active duty with the NZDF.
“At this early stage, there is still more information to be gathered in order to understand the circumstances fully,” NZDF said in a statement.
“The New Zealand Army will work closely with the family of the soldier to offer support at this deeply sad time.”
The answer is no, but that we should be asking it at all perhaps is a reminder of how much more violent and dangerous the war in Ukraine is now entering as a phase.
Putin has been dangerously weakened and empowered by this risky military adventure he’s embarked upon for deeply personal reasons, visions and geopolitical strategies.
His grip domestically on power has never been greater, his command of the economy has been insulating and his vision of a new reign of chaos where Russia rises is forming, however his old crony corrupt Army has struggled and he’s increasingly being forced to commit more ruthless acts of violence.
Currently Putin can’t mobilise the entire Army because it would cause backlash from the mothers of the sons sent to war. Politically and culturally these mothers are very powerful, however if the Ukrainians commit a domestic attack on Russia, Putin can use that to justify full mobilisation.
Assassinating the daughter of Putin’s advisors is getting dangerously close to that…
Car bomb kills daughter of ‘spiritual guide’ to Putin’s Ukraine invasion – Russian media
Russian authorities said Sunday they had opened a murder investigation after the daughter of influential, ultra-nationalist philosopher Alexander Dugin was killed by a car bomb on the outskirts of Moscow.
…Putin of course is infamously accused of bombing his own people in Moscow 1999 to generate a false flag invasion of Chechnya. Nothing would swing Russian support into a fully fledged mobilisation like a domestic terror attack on Russia.
Soooooooooo, with the triggers this thin for a full outbreak of war, should NZ have citizens fighting as mercenaries?
De-escalation is the only tool here, war will only begets more war.
We shouldn’t be fuelling this fire for American Military Industrial Complex profit margins.
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I note the sad and completely unnecessary death of a NZ citizen in the Ukraine.
Donbass never did anything to New Zealand, but this country nevertheless chooses to aid its persecutors for no reason all.
The Ukrainian government has for the last 8 years been attacking its own citizens in the Donbass. Russia has come to their aid, and not before time.
Not the first blood nose of the twenty first century and it won’t be the last.
Correction d’Esterre the Donbas has been a breeding ground for thugs and criminals. Look at the cages they are building to try illegally the foreign POWs in the Philharmonic Hall. These are cultureless, ruthless bastards who will sentence the POWs to death with their kangaroo court.
Cantabrian (shouldn’t that be Cantabrigian? Unless of course you actually are in Cambridge)
I fear that you too do not know as much about the Donbass as you think you do. We have extended family connections into that area: I think that we have a better “handle” on it.
“….the cages they are building…. in the Philharmonic Hall.”
Perhaps you aren’t aware of this: cages are widely used in the Russian court system, so no surprises that they’d be used in the Donbass (which was Russian territory, back in the day).
“….to try illegally the foreign POWs…”
Illegal? Not a bit of it! Those foreigners are there illegally: what did they think would happen to them if they were caught?
Unluckily for them, they’re not being tried in Russia, which doesn’t have the death penalty. On the other hand the DNR still does and doubtless the LNR is the same. These are independent territories: Russia has recognised them as such. It is that recognition which makes the SMO legal under the terms of the UN charter.
The foreign POWs were not there illegally. They are entitled to be treated as POWs under the Geneva convention. If you want to defend a bunch of thugs and criminals in the mafia state which is the Donbas, you should be ashamed of yourself. Zelensky is Jewish – so he can’t be a Nazi. On the other hand,a Russian Nazi – Zhirinovsky, to his horror discovered he was Jewish.
Cantabrian: “Zelensky is Jewish – so he can’t be a Nazi.”
What has being Jewish got to do with anything? Of course he’s a Nazi: it’s a common misconception that only non-jews can be Nazis. People labour under the misapprehension that there weren’t Jews in the Hitler regime. Of course there were.
And what is Israel, if not a Nazi state? That is how it behaves, that’s for sure, even it it wouldn’t so characterise itself.
I do wonder why you and others believe this stuff. The Donbass is an independent area: foreigners there to fight them are illegals. We here would take the same view.
Well said
Truly unfortunate for this man died for the side that rains butterfly mines down on the innocent children of the Donbass. That’s bad for your soul.
Mohammed Khan: this story puts me in mind of a Joan Baez song, popular in my youth: Be Not Too Hard
Inter alia:
“Be not too hard/ when he blindly dies/ fighting for things he does not own”
This man blundered into a conflict which he clearly didn’t know anything about, or understand at all. If he had, he’d have been fighting on the other side. As things stand, he’s paid with his life for his ignorance. I feel so sad for his surviving family.
Nicky Hager wrote a book called “Other People’s Wars”. This is exactly the sort of conflict he had in mind.
It isn’t anything to do with us here. We should all of us – including the government – refrain from supporting the Ukrainian regime in any way, and just stay out of it.
If he was off duty then he had every right to be over there and very sad that he was killed.
Not so sure James, I asked my navy son who said that whilst part of NZ Forces on leave or otherwise there was a prohibition on service elsewhere. Don’t know what current scenario is but it will come out.
I believe you are correct .It is sad he died but as a serving soldier he is not at liberty to do what he wants .
Defence force personnel along with certain civil servants are barred from travelling to certain countries, ie Cuba. NZ Soldiers certainly wouldn’t be allowed to go to a war zone, unless on official duty. However if you’re on leave & overseas there is no way of stopping there is no one to stop you.
Incorrect he did not have leave to go and fight in another war!
Where is the evidence that Dugin is an advisor to Putin?
He’s not, he doesn’t hold any Kremlin position .He was kicked out of his teaching position at St Petersburg University because he was too radical.
He criticises Putin, saying he doesn’t go far enough and has placated the west too much.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Darya was the designated target here. She was put on the Ukrainian “Peacemaker” database, which has published the addresses and details of many accredited journalists.
She reported in Mariupol, from inside the Azovstal, after it had been captured by the Russians .
Putin is not the only one who should be triggered by the death of a Russian civilian , we all should condemn this act of terrorism,and assassination of a journalist, otherwise who are we as a people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myrotvorets
The UN and EU have repeatedly asked the Ukraine govt to close down Myrotvorets to no avail
We are at war with Russia, only in the same gutless way that the US and UK is, providing weapons, money that our own homeless could well do with, training and intelligence.And amplifying the western propaganda
Are there any other Kiwi soldiers”on leave” who have become victim to their own govt’s propaganda?
“I wouldn’t be surprised if Darya was the designated target here. She was put on the Ukrainian “Peacemaker” database, which has published the addresses and details of many accredited journalists.”
That seems to be Russia’s assessment… https://www.rt.com/russia/561318-dugina-suspect-vovk-video/
D J S
Dugin doesnt have to be on the Kremin payroll to be Putin’s advisor.
Yes, but Occam’s razor suggests his advisors would be people he’s actually met at least once, not random former university professors.
millsy.: It’s best to take with a handful of salt anything you read in Western media outlets about Russia and the Kremlin (though they never say which Kremlin they’re talking about).
The best riposte is a version of that which Mandy Rice-Davies used all those years ago: “well, they WOULD say that, wouldn’t they!”
Francesca you are trying to work things out about Dugina but jumping to some absurd conclusions. Nobody knows the truth – least of all you. We do have precedent however with Putin blowing up four apartment blocks in 1999 and blaming the Chechens as Martyn aptly mentions. Such false flag operations are not uncommon in Putin’s Russia and why did Dugin change cars?
OK buddy, ‘false flag operations’ are totally real and not a conspiracy theory, but only when your CIA accuses your people’s enemies of doing them (nobody look at Operation Northwoods and all the other stuff the Americans planned).
Why did Dugin change cars?
He didn’t .
He came to the festival in a friend’s car.He left in the same car. The car Darya was driving was her own, registered in her name, though her father borrowed it from time to time .
As for the so called false flag apartment bombings the perpetrator has never been found and nothing either way has been proven .
Francesca: saw this in a comment thread on Moon of Alabama yesterday:
“Found on Slavyangrad…
Ukrainian terrorist Natalya Vovk found dead in Austria with 17 stab wounds, – Austrian publication Express.
They are removing witnesses. No loose ends”
No way of knowing if it’s true. The Austrian government won’t confirm it, last I looked.
Cantabrian (or Cantabrigian): “…..Putin blowing up four apartment blocks in 1999 and blaming the Chechens….”
Oh dear. You really don’t know anything about that situation, do you? That’s where reliance on Western media and commentators gets you: misinformed. Ignorant, even.
The conflict in Chechnya was driven by an Islamist uprising (supported by the usual Wahabbist suspects). It was they who carried out those bombings. At that time, Yeltsin was president of Russia. I remember those events vividly.
D’Esterre prove that that you have family connections with the Donbas. I don’t believe you. ‘Blowing up Russia’ was written by a Russian – Alexander Litvinenko a colonel in the KGB. No Western involvement. He was viewed as important enough to be taken out by the FSB. Don’t show your ignorance d’Esterre.
Cantabrian: “….prove that that you have family connections with the Donbas. I don’t believe you.”
Believe what you like. I know my connections: I don’t need to prove anything to you. Though I will point out that pretty much the whole of the Eastern Ukraine was still part of Russia when my family connections were born there, long before the Revolution.
Litvinenko? What on earth has he to do with anything? I didn’t mention him: that’s a bit of a non sequitur on your part, isn’t it?
No d’Esterre the FSB did the bombings, blamed it on the Chechens while Putin was head of the FSB and then became Prime Minister. It was a blatant power grab. ‘Blowing up Russia’ was banned in Russia. I wonder why? Then Litvinenko was poisoned by the FSB. I’ll lend you a copy d’Esterre, you obviously need to read it!
Francesca, I noted that Bombers source was CNN which as a source of Bidens propaganda would make even Geobbels look like a paragon of rectitude.
You are so amusing Nick J aka Vlad.
Its always richly rewarding to have been name called…Vlad… how lovely. It simply confirms that the name caller has nothing of substance to argue.
Nick+J: “It simply confirms that the name caller has nothing of substance to argue.”
You’re exactly right: name-calling is a dead giveaway.
Go to a country where a hot war is happening and participate–really–What the fuck might go wrong would anyone with half a brain imagine…?
Dominic Abelen’s case needs investigating and the specific details publicised to make more sense of this. Why the Defence Force wrap around for an off duty person who died on some apparent personal adventurist mission.
I agree totally, this man buggered off to fight in a war. Why is the PM making statements and the Minister of Foreign Affairs.
Complete and utter madness. Still if you learn how to kill then I suppose you want to go and do it.
The understanding of what is going on on both sides certainly won’t be known by any gungho kiwi fighting machine.
You need to read widely including things like ‘covertaction’ magazine. Don’t just read the MSM, they take one view and it is dictated to them.
Yes Putin is a shit but he is not the only shit involved frankly.
Michael: “Yes Putin is a shit…”
I’m wondering why you’d think this. Do you know him personally? It sounds as if this opinion comes from Western media.
Evidently, enough Russian citizens disagree with you to have re-elected him over and over since he first stood for the presidency.
Obviously enough were scared to vote any other way
Trevor: “Obviously enough were scared to vote any other way.”
It’s a democracy, you know. And good luck with rigging the elections every year in a country of that size.
The CIA did it for Yeltsin, though that was just for the one election, as I recall. And it was quite upfront about it, too. Repeatedly rigging elections is too bloody difficult.
And you know the Russians won’t be told what to do, won’t obey laws they consider to be ridiculous and pointless. Have a look-see what happened with the QR codes in that country: dead, long before they were abandoned here.
Perhaps the NZ military (and others?) are actually rotating people through for combat experience? Some barely articulate bloke on RNZ this morning suggested that there could be tens of kiwis there. All on unpaid leave?
This mercenary and his little mission did not represent me as a New Zealander or fight for my freedom, security, values, philosophy or future, nor does the New Zealand Defence Force in Ukraine for that matter (Defence is in the name for a start, not offense).
Europe was to be the greatest Empire the world had ever seen. The tyranny of Europe being turned once again to the path of annihilation. Of course The Queen of England is the only human being worthy of inheriting such a grand empire, a Union that took 2000 years to establish, Queen Elizabeth The Second, should have been the one to reap the rewards, but in the end it is a low Russian boarder guard in Colonel Vladimir Putin that has torn The European Union away, and tore the potential away.
Vladimir Putin, his military IQ, close quarters combat, political finesse has to be considered average at best. This average chess player who has defeated Europes potential and the greatest potential of all empires.
Military experts, political experts and psychological experts will eagerly come force claiming to have predicted Putin’s response and what I believe is the perfect plan as we want h Europe crumble in one winter.
It’s going to take some time to come to grips with the injuries Europe is suffering. Although Queen Elizabeth could only say that she is slightly impressed with the rise of a colonel. What’s more Putin’s successes is brushed of as luck.
No, Putin is not a Michael Jordan of Geniuses. He’s not on the level of Eisenhower, Bradley, not even Patton. Putin does not belong in the company of genius.
No it is us who is conflicted. it doesn’t matter how terrible Putin is or how wonderful western military aid is, the conflict amongst us is responsible for the destruction of Europe. An average Chess player takes advantage of that.
Ditto.
Well said .
live by the sword, die by the sword.
I think everyone smells a rat here. Was this guy genuinely “officially” not there on behave of NZ? Or is he some sort of international “black operative”, for which NZ can disavow any and all involvement? Maybe I watch too many movies, but this sort of thing stinks of CIA “Black ops”.
As I said before, it looks increasingly likely that this war will end up being outsourced on both sides to mercenary forces. This will be the first privatised war between nations in the modern era
Might be interesting Millsy, last time that happened was Quatratento Italy where condotierri (mercenary) leaders were known to decide the result of tomorrow’s battle over a bottle or two, then divide the spoils. Either way the people suffer.
I Just watched this…https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gl-9GIvnJ2k.
The host ( a Ukrainian ) makes an important point about the lasting bitterness and enmity that is being created by the war . I expect that Russia did not quite anticipate how it could be prolonged by this intervention of massive arms supplies and covert underhand participation of America’s allies.
If no one else had got involved it would probably have been over in a week or two ; the Donbass would have been secured with the least bloodshed possible , most Ukrainians would have recognised the need and legitimacy of securing the safety and autonomy of Donetsk and Lugansk and the ruffled political feathers would have been smoothed down quite soon.
The intervention of the West in the way we have has made it nearly impossible diplomatically and politically for Zenensky to negotiate and accept the inevitable loss of the Donbass and Crimea. All unwilling provinces to be part of the undemocratic government installed by the US in Kiev and having no representation by any of these provinces in the present administration.
All of Ukraine is littered with ethnic Russians . The social damage we are doing to Ukraine by interfering will last for generations.
D J S
David Stone: “…Russia did not quite anticipate how it could be prolonged by this intervention of massive arms supplies and covert underhand participation of America’s allies.”
Indeed. It seems that Russia didn’t expect the US and its allies to be quite so bloody stupid. Although it has long experience of the US being stupid in so many other arenas, it might have known that the West couldn’t help itself. The West doesn’t care a jot for the lives expended in the Ukraine. Neither does Kiev.
“….accept the inevitable loss of the Donbass and Crimea.”
It’s worth remembering that Kiev had troops on the borders of both areas, and fully intended to retake them by force. Although we didn’t find out about this until after the beginning of the SMO, that’s why Russia acted as it did, and when it did.
Kiev and its Western allies have been very bad faith actors over many years.
I’m not.
An ignorant well meaning Kiwi died in Ukraine, oh so sorry.
What about the truth and propaganda about it all?
Ukraine has been under US influence since Yeltsin and Russia suspected rightly the agenda of trying to influence powers there. Russia is defending itself.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRg7pTZ91oo
Mike, you are woefully ignorant about Russian/Ukrainian history. I’d be ashamed to show said ignorance if I were you!
Seems Cantab you’ve had a go at everybody so far declaring them wrong, ignorant etc. I’d wager that every one of us has a more precise view of reality. In short better informed. Excellent, enjoy your view, it amuses us.
I 100% support Cantabrian’s comments on here and in fact he is one of very few who has a firm grip on reality / has from his comments actually spent time in Russia and is not blinded by a hatred of the US to the point of supporting an invasion of an independent country by an authoritarian regime headed by someone who regularly assassinates any political opponents.
Still can’t stand the Crusaders but . .
I love the Crusaders, they play reality based football.
Thanks James. My grandfather fought against the Bolsheviks for the White Army and my grandmother was born in Ukraine. I am eligible for citizenship in both countries. I know the one I would choose!
Nick J ‘a more precise view of reality’. What a joke. Do you know any Russian or Ukrainian? Can you translate Russian sources? I’ll wager you can’t so put up or shut up!
Here we go.. I’ve got a Masters Degree (I’m cleverer than you), I’ve been to Russia (so I know everything about them) and I speak Russian (so I can translate sources you can’t), and my ancestors come from and fought in the area (which makes me an expert). Goodo, your self worth seems astronomical. Well hush my mouth, bow to your magnificence.
Nick J you got it. What’s more Masters is not my highest qualification.
Did you get it mail order Cantab? Pity they don’t sell humility and EQ as well.
I got my quals from the University of Canterbury and the University of Auckland actually. Your anti-intellectualism is revealing Nick J, which explains why all of your pronouncements on Ukraine are such rubbish. Ditto d’Esterre.
You entirely miss the point Cantab. I’d question your intellect, not your quals. I’ve got them from the same institution, but it didn’t seem at all relevant, still isn’t. All you have done is throw your qualifications in as a bludgeon to say “I’m better than you” without having the intellect to check and ask has he got the same?
As to anti intellectualism.. Ffs, you have no monopoly on ideas or information. Time to start thinking Cantab, as opposed to assuming.
It is pretty obvious Nick J, that you have no expertise in the area of Russia or Ukraine otherwise you would not say the things you do. My qualifications are precisely in that area. I support a free Russia – free from Putin’s jackboots.
Nick J your grip of Russian and Ukrainian history is so poor that it is obvious that you have no expertise in the area. I have a Masters in Russian. I would have to question your intellect when you spout Putin’s propaganda for him. I have not seen any critical thinking from you so you obviously did no postgraduate study.
Perhaps you should join Abelen fighting against Russian speakers in Ukraine if you lust for innocent Russian blood so much?
Perhaps you should join the Taliban Mohammed.
Awww, does your p**sy hurt, ammurrican?
This is like having a conversation with a 13 year old moron.
Agreed – so f**k off James+Brown, you 13 year old moron!
Cantab, you are revealing a disturbingly overblown opinion of your demonstrably underwhelming intellect. I’d be surprised given your child like reasoning if you actually have qualifications, if you have I would wonder at current academic standards.
I was on a University Challenge team Nick J – we got second. You have yet to state what your qualifications are – if any. My doctoral thesis sits in the UC library. As I said you have zilch expertise on Russia or Ukraine so stop insulting people that have!
I have no respect for people who say I’ve done this I’ve done that, I’ve got this qualification or another. It means zero to anybody except the ego of the person claiming. The argument at hand also has no respect to those claims when you are wrong.
A little bit though about me as you seem so set on proving you are better, Hons degrees, never used them. Academia was not my scene, commerce was. I did multi million dollar sales and got richly rewarded but one rule applied. Hero to zero. Once signed celebrate because tomorrow you start all over again and nobody gives a rats about your last major deal. The only person I had to prove myself to was me. Do you see why I don’t care about your qualifications?
So the socialist ideal of “volunteers” fighting for truth, justice, and democracy, lives on.
Any NZ soldiers fighting in Ukraine are doing it without authorisation, and if they make it back here alive they’ll probably be court martialled.
NZs fought in the Spanish Civil War in the 1930s didn’t they? Why? If a person goes to fight in a war there is either a strong principle at stake, or they like the BoysOwn aspect of it or the heightened feeling of importance and danger. What was this young man’s reasoning? Getting injured is not unlikely and then there is causing other people’s injuries. I would think that in any war both sides are at fault to some extent, so hearing one side and seeing video links does not tell the whole story and the relevant background.
Greywarbler: “NZs fought in the Spanish Civil War in the 1930s didn’t they? ”
They did. But in defence of the Spanish Republic, not of fascism. In fact, the fascists won that conflict, and Spain became a fascist dictatorship under Franco. He ruled till his death in the 1970s.
Nowadays, I’d greatly prefer NZ to be non-aligned. This country should stay out of the Ukraine conflict. It’s obvious that most people – including the government – have no idea what’s going on there, and has been going on there for a lot of years. The Ukrainian regime is fascist by its own admission, and it’s acted appallingly towards its own citizens. You couldn’t make up some of the things it has done.
Young people going to fight for the Ukraine are indisputably on the wrong side. As doubtless they find out when they get there.
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