Let’s be blunt, these are frightening times.
Human beings need certainty of tomorrow and they need hope, the pandemic has overturned the rhythms of our life and upended our sense of normal.
Into this space creeps fear, add to this fear social media platforms that are algorithmically curated to feed you anger coupled with a low background scientific literacy and you have the perfect cultural media landscape for disinformation, misinformation and a cocktail of terror inspired rage.
I don’t blame people for being ‘vaccine hesitant’ because this is all scary stuff, but sadly into that fear we get delivered insane levels of stupidity!
“Wearing a face mask is fascism” is the exact same as “fastening a seatbelt is genocide” in that the person saying this doesn’t have a functioning knowledge of the words ‘fascism’, ‘genocide’ or ‘fuckwit’.
The ongoing attempt by the Incel alt-right and loony new age crystal brigade to paint the wearing of face masks as some type of Nazi Police State overreach is as delusional as claims of microchips in the vaccine but we can’t allow our anger at their fear inspired stupidity to lead us down the dark paths of enforced vaccination.
Yes employers have the right to make vaccinations as part of a reason to hire someone, no employers can’t sack an existing employee for not being vaccinated, yes we should incentivize getting vaccinated, yes we need better community messaging no no no no no we can’t force mandatory vaccinations.
I know we want to, our fear of this damned plague bursting out and disrupting our lives again, getting us sick even after vaccination alongside our anger at the denial of science by these anti-vaxxers will propel us towards arguments and desires to enforce the vaccination on everyone but this is a direction all people of conscience, regardless of political perspective must avoid.
The individual has intrinsic rights, we can’t force the individual to take a medicine they don’t consent to, we simply can’t!
The type of State that would force an injection on an individual against their consent is no State to defend or support.
Don’t misunderstand me. I am pro pro pro the vaccination, I am angry that my booking to get it is still 20 bloody days away, I urge everyone to trust the science and get vaccinated as soon as humanly possible and for any friends or whanau who are hesitant reach out to them, but I can not and will never support forced vaccinations.
NZ is a place that believes in looking after one another. The compliance with lockdown rules, our collective agreement to be good neighbors and citizens by not making each other sick, our willingness to curtail our own liberty for the collective good – this is who we proudly are and we should see criticism of that to be a projection of the critics own hollow values rather than an indictment of our own.
When history reviews this time, China will declare their brutal authoritarian approach to Covid was the success, but here in NZ we can hold our heads up high that we were able to defeat it not by crushing civil rights, falsehoods and violent police action, but via kindness, empathy and a belief that a well informed citizenship will act in good faith for the collective good.
A liberal progressive democracy can triumph at the height of a pandemic while maintaining our cherished civil liberties.
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They won’t make it mandatory for all.
Instead there will be the Vaccine Passport . Which, I guess, will be required along with a person’s CV for certain occupations.
Yeah just like years ago us free spirits roaming the world had to carry evidence of cholera or typhus shots, the only natural right being the right of the virus to kill us.
Coming out of a war where pain and privation was real, state authority respected, we lived through the age when pandemics were being wiped out one by one, the evidence of science in our survival.
This was democracy before neoliberalism and postmodernism turned us into self righteous egomaniacs.
Human rights are not handed down by states but are fought for and won on the battlefields of life by the great herd of humanity.
This pandemic will teach us both the science and democracy that serves the common people not that of the oligarchs and their mercenaries.
Yes, I had to get vaxxed to travel overseas.
I can’t remember which disease it was for, but it was just part of travelling to some countries – Probably still is.
Totally agree Dave, well said.
Vaccine passports are just as scary as mandatory vaccination
Speaking of vaccinations, isn’t it a pity that our health department and our ministers never strategised a vaccine roll out, let alone one that made sense? I mean it’s been 18 months.
Front line workers like supermarket staff, rest home staff, police, bus drivers, train staff, taxi drivers, truck drivers, wharfies, in other words, all those essential workers the government has a definition for and the people expected to front the public or high risk areas during lockdowns were never in the reckoning. All are now exposed or were exposed as are their families.
Yes they can get the virus but the risk of serious complications are reduced significantly. They should not be expected to front and get maimed or die for some politicians lack of care.
Where has our Director General of Health been? Maybe he recommended it happen and was ignored? The buck stops with the Covid Response Minister however.
When Chris Hipkins goes to work each day, what happens? Does he go to eat his lunch? Does he stare out the windows blankly? Because thinking ahead has clearly never occurred to him.
I agree. I found it fascinating that on the day we went to Level 4 they cancelled all the booked in vaccinations (with no replacement date offered) but at the same time you could’ve gone to the New World and bought beer and ciggies.
Maybe Foodstuffs should have been given a contract to provide the shots. They obviously managed to deal with Delta better than the government health provider. Maybe because they had given it some forethought.
“I urge everyone to trust the science and …”
Sound counsel Martyn but I wonder why some people won’t heed that advice. And, yes, they have a democratic right not to. Its not like refusing to wear a seat belt. Yet. I’ve no doubt missed a few for but here’s 8 reasons why not, a nice round number. Anxi-vaxers, feel free to add to these and/or elaborate.
1. Libertarian views: simply, we have the democratic right not to.
2. Simply don’t like authority in any shape or form.
3. Don’t trust the science (which after all was rushed, dependent on new technologies and in most cases
in the hands of big pharma).
4. Don’t believe medical experts (in particular epidemiologists) who claim vaccination is the way to better
public health outcomes.
5. Point to alternative treatments.
6. Argue that the vaccines are not entirely efficient, so what’s the point.
7. Claims of microchips in the vaccine.
8. God is against it.
I am lucky, as an essential worker, to have been vaccinated at a mass event here in New Plymouth on Friday. I booked in on wednesday and had i made a normal booking on that day my vaccination would not be till oct 25-30, if there is any vaccine available. The shortage of vaccine, despite our supposed order of 10 million doses, will be a huge problem for the government over the next 4 months. Even though i had made a booking, had been registered on arrival and had my details double checked by the vaccinator I was still specifically asked Do you consent to being vaccinated before given the jab. I think, as usual, the people on the ground are doing a better, more professional job than the people in charge.
We’ve had military conscription a few times, it was needed because we didn’t have enough volunteers to complete the job at hand. In WW2 we realised we had not learn to live with expanding German fascism and Japanese Imperialism but could only survive by smashing it. (many of those servicemen also had compulsory inoculations for overseas environments!) Sure there was pushback -but it ultimately served the greater good, in WW2 those whom refused were redirected to other work or imprisoned, or obliged to work intensively on the home front. Everyone played a role against the national threat- we need learn and remember to make that collective sacrifice again to protect ourselves, our families, our communities and our country.
It’s not black n white for me – there’s a spectrum of just don’t have enough peer reviewed info to make an informed decision Vs my personal risk appetite to imminent death. I dislike the growing pro Vax propaganda as much as I do the anti Vax propaganda. We makes our choices n live or die by the consequences. I am pro choice
So we are all happy with the current evidence regarding masks that are surgical, cloth or with a vent? They are less than 20% effective based off the last scientific test done (Irish Uni I believe). Would you take a vaccine with a 20% efficacy?
P.S. all in favour of vaccines as the majority of science stacks up regarding these. Masks outside of the N95 and KN95 offer next to no protection however.
Don’t make the vaccines mandatory however don’t allow state dependents to get their full entitlements prior to being vaxed. You’ll find then the vax rates skyrocket when you hot people where it hurts. The Blairite won’t do this through because the same woke that are propagating scare porn will believe this is racist and demeaning.
If you’re prepared to cut funds to the poor, be prepared for the consequences. You’re in your 70s so I can understand your fear of a quick covid death. It’s ok to be afraid. It’s what you do with your fear that matters. Cutting funding to the poor to increase immunisation is unethical and outright abusive. Handle your own fear of death first, then contribute to equitable debate n solutions that lift us all. Spoiler: we all die at the end. It’s how we live that matters mate 🙂
(edit: apologise as I got FTT mixed up with DJS, but inherent opinion stands in general to anyone advocating to cut benefits until immunised – that would be abhorrent to say the least)
anyone advocating to cut benefits until immunised – that would be abhorrent
Yes, it would be inhumane, and purpose-defeating.
Lol in my 40s!!!! All I’m saying is the stick approach does work and will work on this occasion.
solutions that lift us all
Well said.
I’m with you on these points Martyn but when you say “the pandemic has overturned the rhythms of our life and upended our sense of normal” I would suggest that it’s the lockdowns that have done the upending and not the virus.
I’m saddened by the fragility of the average kiwi: That they would gladly hand over their human rights for temporary relief from what is essentially a bad ‘flu season. The cosseted nature of the kiwi lifestyle has left many ill equipped to deal with the real world.
Once handed over, do they really think they’d ever get those rights back again?
(To give this context: Typically we lose about 500 people every year from ‘flu and the experts say that Covid 19 could finish off about a thousand)
The flu deaths would multiply massively if they were assessed the same way as covid deaths are being assessed. In the US if you test positive PCR and are shot i through the head or go under a bus on tour motorbike you died of covid. Likewise if you die of the vaccine but caught it anyway you died of covid.
D J S
Just to add, important the last sentence on a layperson.
“Anecdotal evidence in a comments section can feel compelling. If you see someone say: “My grandad had the COVID-19 vaccine and two days later he died from a stroke,” it’s tempting to make the vaccine the cause for stroke and conclude that the vaccine is bad. But Grandad was 89 and strokes are quite common in that age group.
Epidemiologists can compare the number of people having strokes in his age group who weren’t vaccinated with those who were, and can see if there are any increases in stroke incidence over the whole population.
At an anecdotal level, you can’t tell much at all. But when a layperson is reading something, an anecdote is much more relatable and has more impact than data and numbers.”
Around 70 children die from respiratory diseases every year in NZ. Influenza causes between 300 (good year) and 600 (1997) deaths each year.
The FDA has given full approval to the Pfizer vaccine for ages 16 and up.
Agree with the decision or not, those who call it an experimental vaccine are now making a false claim.
Moderna’s application for full approval is being reviewed. Expect a decision in several weeks.
Compared with 9,000 New Zealanders who died in two months, between October and December in 1918, from a “new ‘flu”.
https://nzhistory.govt.nz/culture/influenza-pandemic-1918
Jesus David I actually enjoyed your intellectual posts but how do you believe such crap? Was it Tucker Carlson or Qanon.
Covid is nothing like the flu. You can shake the flu in 10 days. Covid patients have stated they struggle to breath months after recovery. Flu deaths may well be the same without yearly vaccination but they’re not are they.
Luckily medical experts are in charge of common sense…
“Dr Richard Webby an infectious disease researcher at St Jude Children’s Research Hospital in Tennessee, says there’s no doubt that right now the Covid-19 coronavirus is much deadlier and makes more people sick than the flu”
How many have died from the vaccine compared to how many lives the vaccine has saved?
“(To give this context: Typically we lose about 500 people every year from ‘flu and the experts say that Covid 19 could finish off about a thousand)’
Experts actually state over 1430 covid deaths so as you can see that’s a marked difference of over 900. Not sure where your facts come from. It actually saddens me the fragility of a few kiwis purport lockdowns have killed millions around the world and not the virus.
It’s dangerous because the flu and corona or what ever J med the species barrier meaning humans have no natural environment immunity accept for vaccines. In other words 1+1=2.
In reply to “Brewer” re Dr Ryan Coles claims.
https://www.factcheck.org/2021/04/scicheck-idaho-doctor-makes-baseless-claims-about-safety-of-covid-19-vaccines/
Its shonky. My reply blocked.
Strawman argument – he didn’t say that.
The Docs a Qanon member.
There are other ways to ensure compliance, Martyn, apart from strapping the vaccine refuseniks to a table and jabbing them.
The most obvious of these is the “Vaccine Passport”. Without one these babies, entry to shops, offices, cinemas, pubs, sporting fixtures – you name it – will be refused.
It will be a quick and effective lesson for these anti-social dunderheads on just how crazy it is to believe that you don’t need other people and are, therefore, justified in not helping other people.
You don’t believe in fulfilling your social obligations? Fine. Try living outside society.
Interestingly the Water Services Bill is making treatment of water compulsory with no provisions to opt out and a draconian regime of fines for non compliance.
The failure of local government officials in Havelock north to secure a bore head is being used as an excuse to impose unrealistic and costly compliance on small local schemes.
Yes. That one worries me, for the future of AO/ NZ.
Given the freedom and antivax lobby in the USA it is seemingly against the odds that they have acheived high vaccination rates. 92% of over 65 year olds. May be their carrot policy of a vaccination granting you a ticket in special state vaccination lottery where the vaccinated can win million$ has been a winning idea! Try it here.
Moerewa’s onto it: Vouchers and IPads for getting Pfizer
In Hong Kong: Vaccine Incentives in Hong Kong
From that link:
“To encourage citizens to get their jabs, many businesses in Hong Kong are offering a slew of perks and prizes – ranging from shopping vouchers, flight tickets, staycation packages, cruise vacation, cold cash, and – it gets better – a Tesla, Rolex watch, million-dollar flat, and even gold bars! Yep, 24 Karat gold worth over $1M, to be exact. ”
California: Vaccine Incentives and Prizes
“….I can not and will never support forced vaccinations.” Martyn Bradbury
Never say never Martyn,
It depends on how high the stakes are.
What If our whole public, (and private) health system was brought to the brink of collapse, overwhelmed by covid patients. With every ICU unit unable to take in any more patients, including those from car accidents and heart attacks.
Martyn, what if it was your child with a life threatening injury from an accident or illness, who couldn’t get into hospital because the hosptial was overwhelmed, with covid patients filling every ward, with some even outside waiting and dieing on stretchers waiting to get in, or lying in backed up ambulances in the hospital carpark.
New Zealand History records that mandatory conscription of all eligible males was brought in during World War II due to public demand.
Conscription was introduced in June 1940….
….Difficulties in filling the Second and Third Echelons for overseas service in 1939–1940, the Allied disasters of May 1940 and public demand led to its introduction.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_New_Zealand_during_World_War_II
Even during peace time Compulsory Military Training (CMT), a form of conscription, was practised for males in New Zealand between 1909 and 1972.
During World War I and II, tens of thousands of New Zealanders were conscripted to fight, whether they wanted to or not. It was compulsory, you had no say in it. If you refused you were arrested and jailed.
Every ANZAC Day we celebrate these tens of thousands of conscript soldiers as heroes.
(Some New Zealand ‘conchies’ who refused conscription, died in prison. We don’t celebrate them as heroes).
We have an insidious enemy on our shores right now, are we so soft and self centred that we won’t use everything within our means to defeat it. Even when, not doing so, might cost us thousands of innocent lives and the ruination of our health system.
Would you be prepared to pay that price Martyn?
Martyn, it is only a little prick in your arm, it is not like people are being ordered to carry a rifle and be bombed and shot at.
I can give you a guarantee, Martyn, that if the Americans drag this country, into a World War with China, the government won’t hesitate one minute to bring mandatory conscription in, to fight in it.
The simple fact is this: Experts have told us that only a vaccination rate of over 95% of the eligible population will infer herd immunity against the Delta varient of Covid-19. All projections are that voluntary uptake would be lucky to achieve 80%.
To be blunt; we either bring in mandatory vaccination, or abandon our policy of elimination.
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