TVNZ Breakfast should be ashamed of their gutless interview with the Prime Minister this morning.
The AM Show was left to ask the hard hate speech questions and Tova O’Brien’s must read column today highlights how much a train wreck Jacinda’s interview was.
The Prime Minister was wrong again, and again and again. I watched the interview with my mouth wide open.
The Prime Minister doesn’t seem to understand the full ramifications of what handing over to Police the power to decide what hate means.
If Key had attempted this, we would be outraged …
Tova O’Brien: Jacinda Ardern has misled the public and shut down debate on hate speech laws
OPINION: Jacinda Ardern is wrong about her own hate speech law. Completely and utterly wrong.
Not only is the Prime Minister wrong about the basic facts of the proposal, she was wrong to shut down debate on hate speech on The AM Show this morning with her glib, inaccurate dismissals.
The Prime Minister and Ministers develop policy and set policy directions for law. If they don’t understand the policy direction and intent of the law, how can they expect the judiciary to interpret and apply the law?
On Newshub Nation we questioned the Justice Minister about the proposed changes and tested his policy direction and intent with examples. He conceded that, for example, if millennials expressed hatred towards boomers they could potentially be found liable for hate speech.
Ardern is now contesting that, saying the law will only apply if it ‘incites violence’. That is wrong, the proposed threshold is as low as ‘insulting’ someone.
The Prime Minister was dismissive about the interview and said we were trivialising the need for the law change – the terror attacks on March 15.
It is insulting and irresponsible to pit journalists – or anyone who questions or debates the legislation – as somehow being in opposition to the needs of the victims of March 15th.
If Jacinda Ardern wants to be the only voice who can have a say on the proposed hate speech changes – let’s fact check some of what she said on The AM Show this morning and you can decide whether she should have the only and ultimate say.
“It’s about inciting violence and abuse against a whole group of people”
Wrong. According to the discussion document:
“The law would change so that a person who intentionally incites, stirs up, maintains or normalises hatred against any specific group of people based on a characteristic listed in Proposal One, would break the law if they did so by being threatening, abusive or insulting, including by inciting violence.”
So someone who intentionally stirs up or normalises hatred by being insulting would break the law.
“Some of the examples feel like a trivialisation of that”
Wrong. No one is trivialising what happened on March 15th. I personally believe the law needs to be strengthened off the back of the recommendations from the Royal Commission of Inquiry but to help us understand the implications of the law change, we need to understand when it could be applied. Using a range of examples is one way to achieve that. It is on the government to be clear about how the law could be applied and so far the Prime Minister and her Justice Minister are completely at odds.
“In the interview from the Nation they implied political opinion is included it is not”
Wrong. The proposal seeks to protect more groups. According to the discussion document, “this may include some or all of the other grounds in the Human Rights Act. These grounds are listed in section 21 of the Act”.
Section 21 of the Act includes:
(j) political opinion, which includes the lack of a particular political opinion or any political opinion:
Sure political opinion might be nixed during the consultation phase but it hasn’t been yet so is the Prime Minister making unilateral decisions about what will or won’t result from this consultation? In which case why are we bothering with the discussion document?
The example we put to Kris Faafoi testing political opinion is whether a journalist writing an opinion piece titled, Jacinda Ardern is Dictator, could see the journalist liable. Hmmm.
“This is about extreme speech where you’re inciting violence and hatred against an entire group of people”
Wrong. See above.
When host Duncan Garner put forward an example of offending a staunch christian by saying christianity is over the top and mad. The Prime Minister said it wouldn’t be included because, “You’re not inciting someone to go out and take his life”
What??? Wrong. She’s now re-re-writing the law on the hoof, strengthening her already made up threshold of ‘inciting violence’ to now be inciting death. This is getting weirder by the second.
“He [Kris Faafoi] was pepper potted with a bunch of examples and it’s not for us to determine what a court may or may not do”
Wrong. The Executive (including the Prime Minister and Cabinet) develops policy direction. If a Minister can’t answer basic questions about the direction of a proposed policy or how the law could be applied we may as well get rid of all ministers. They’d be rendered redundant.
“This is about trying to incite people to take action and activity against a group, the bar is high”
Is it? Because her Justice Minister made it sound like the bar could be quite low.
Which is precisely why we need to be able to have debate, discuss examples and question how the law could be applied.
By misleading the public and then shutting down debate Jacinda Ardern has struck the most magnificent own goal, totally playing into the hands of critics of the proposed changes who think it will stymie free speech.
…allowing the Police to determine what is hate with such an open interpretation is incredibly dangerous to democracy!
The Prime Minister is emotionally welded to the Christchurch atrocity because she waded so deep through the trauma and raw pain in its aftermath.
She almost had to have her arm popped out of its socket to finally cancel the Christchurch memorial last year and only because the eruption of Covid might have turned the memorial into a super spreader event, and I think even Mohammed would roll his eyes over the irony of that.
Jacinda wouldn’t be human if she hadn’t been imprinted deeply by that grief and horror, which unfortunately means she will burn any and all political capital in forcing these hate speech laws through, which is inane because this happened from a cascade failure of the intelligence services – blasphemy laws and gender identity hate speech isn’t a solution to a cascade intelligence failure!
Watching the Woke allow the entire NZ Intelligence apparatus off the hook for their total failure with the Christchurch terror attacks by demanding hate speech laws is one of the great intellectual failures of 2021.
This government needs to spend far more time on housing, child poverty, education, welfare, infrastructure, climate change and inequality and far, far, far less time on social engineering vanity projects to criminalise you for word crimes!
If Government wants to make NZ more ‘socially cohesive’ they should build more houses, use a wider range of taxes against corporations and fully fund mental health, education and public health – They shouldn’t strangle off free speech with poorly thought out knee jerk legislation.
If Labour proceed with this, the backlash will cost them the 2023 election.
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Dumping interpretation of the law onto the New Zealand Police is (a) A rotten thing to do (b) Legally erroneous: the cops’ job is to enforce the law, not to interpret it ( A slippery abrogation of the duty of the lawmakers, i.e. Parliament, to pass simple comprehensible legislation.
Maybe the PM is really dim. Accusing any New Zealander of trivialising the Christchurch massacre is a false equivalence and a dreadful thing to be dumping on the already damaged Muslim community who should not be being used yet again, for questionable political purposes. This isn’t the way to achieve ‘ social cohesion’.
Snow White: “This isn’t the way to achieve ‘ social cohesion’.”
Exactly right. Didn’t the reaction of NZers at the time demonstrate just the social cohesion the PM insists this proposed legislation is intended to strengthen? So what’s the point of it?
Virtue signalling – whatever – avoidance of the hard stuff – touch of the Harry and Meghan’s . Back in the 1990’s some other such social well-being exercise was instigated, I think under the aegis of the MSD, and it was abandoned mid stream; I think I actually received a questionnaire which I didn’t fill in, and only a moron would do so now under a pr- driven govt with unknown agendas collecting info about them.
Social cohesion will come about when the divide between the haves and have- nots goes, simple as. Won’t happen.
Sorry mate, but “Tova O’Brien’s” and “must read” just don’t go together
I switch the channel when Tovas on it as simple as that.
The Government has already been trivialising what happened on March 15th…..
…. When they shat all over their own Christchurch counter-terrorism conference ,,, by inviting the less than honest, Islamophobic, Uber-Zionist, & hard right hate speech speaker,,,,, Juliet Moses.
Just sayin ,,,,,,,,
Bullshit Key deceived us for nine years and he got a knighthood for it.
Yep……He sold us out for his American ‘owners’…..IMHO
The hardest thing I’m finding to deal with on this issue is that a blatant tory apologist has now got “credibility”.. This O’brian creature is etched in my memory as being one of the most downright dishonest “journalists” in NZ operating as one of the gang of blowhards doing whatever was necessary to protect John Keys reputation from reality… Now she’s a “real journo”? Give me a break…
Are we not going to be happy until we’ve once again saddled ourselves with yet another colonial privilege party of self obsessed featherbedders… I get that we have to hold our leaders to account, but what purpose does it serve if all we do is smooth the way for more destruction of the work of the first Labour government?
Stefan you’ve done nothing but whine whine whine ever since you got back. Mow an old lady’s lawn or do something useful.
“If Labour proceed with this [as it is I presume] the backlash will cost them the 2023 election.”
There’d be something quite lovely about that. People can’t agree with defining what hate speech is, and are fearful of opening their mouths about anything and being chucked in the slammer so we get Act and schooling sold to voucher education.
At least since I’d be free to speak my mind I could say what I like about that education revolution.
“If Labour proceed with this, the backlash will cost them the 2023 election”
I think I’ve mentioned/predicted this before. I suspect (my ‘reckons are’) that all this shit is just going to have to play out – in this space, going forward. It’s probable that the natives are going to have to get even more restless, and trickle down poverty and inequality capture a greater proportion of the masses before JA and her pets realise.
So be it. I wish we could fast forward because I hope I’m still around to see it.
Meantime, I’m sure the best of her ‘team’ of Ministers will continue to spin and preoccupy themselves with media handling, process and procedure – no matter how fucked up and outdated they are, and in some cases – self preservation. They’ll never lie – they’ll mis-speak. They’ll do their best to observe ‘process and procedures’ even when it’s evident those p&ps are complete shite; they’ll mis-sell, mis-speak, mis-observe, mis-diagnose, mis-step, and mis-administer.
Above all else however, they can NEVER admit they may have got one or two things wrong. There’ll simply be unintended quinsequences, circumstances that could not have possibly been foreseen (because, because, because ….. I know: COVID), and they’ll ALWAYS have complete faith in their ‘officials’ – no matter how many times they’ve been let down.
Yep! Roll on ’23. The sooner the better eveb IF it results in the worst possible outcome of something cobbled together representing a gNactoid. It’ll probably be an election that’s needed to wake a few up. Not unlike one or two elections immediately post 80s an pre the turn of the millenium.
Let it be soon.
Who will you vote for in 2023?
Interesting and valid points Martyn. We can hope that the PM is listening and is able to clarify these points; or maybe reconsider where this is all heading. It seems that every time society has a hiccup our response is to give the Police more power and the legal profession more income!
Time to re-read Fretful Sleepers, again!
It’s obvious as daylight Jacinda thinks these law changes are something quite different than what she imagines they’re .
And by virtue it’s equally obvious she has not read the draft proposals I have put out on the website.
I recon Jacinda’s interpretation of the intent of the proposal; depicted as misleading by Tova , probably reveals what she thinks should be the final outcome after consultation and discussion. She can’t very well come out and say that she thinks the draft is far too invasive as that is what the discussion is supposed to establish. This always presumes that they are going to be influenced by the public discussion and not just going through the motions with no intention of changing anything.
I do find it constantly irritating though how much NZ legislation is being passed and put forward that impinge on New Zealander’s freedom as a response to an act by a visiting foreign national who chose this country to perform his crime for the very reason that no one would ever expect that to happen here. Didn’t someone say “this isn’t us” ? Well is isn’t us and it never was us so why are we being legislated against as if it was us ? The push for punishing us all as if we are to blame for the 15th March is a hate crime in itself.
D J S
The push for punishing us all as if we are to blame for the 15th March is a hate crime in itself.
That says it all, really.
Good comment, David.
David Stone: “…so why are we being legislated against as if it was us ? The push for punishing us all as if we are to blame for the 15th March is a hate crime in itself.”
Hear hear! This comment encapsulates my fundamental problem with this proposed piece of legislation, along with the greatly tightened gun laws.
Tarrant is an AUSTRALIAN. Does the government need reminding of this? Nobody here had anything whatsoever to do with those awful March shootings. And immediately afterwards, we showed in our hundreds of thousands what we thought of that atrocity. Does Ardern really want to chuck all that back in our faces?
Enough already with this cockamamie hate speech stuff: just leave us the hell alone, Ardern! Go build some houses….
Huh ?
Does this cover SpongeBob Squarepants?… will cartoons be censored as well now?
Jesus, there’s a lot of right-wingers reading your leftist columns Martyn. If anything this hate speech issue is bringing them all out of the woodwork, like little crawlies all full of fear and hatred and resentment, and all yearning for the neoliberal fire sale that another dishonest Tory crowd would bring to the party. I do hope someone in JA’s office is reading your columns and their myriad of ragbag opinionatti, as they are either a good barometer of the nonsense that is being said out there, or they are a minority of obsessive navel-gazers with nom-de-plumes venting their frustration because social media is too crowded. Whichever it is, I’m sure there is some devoted little PhD out there reading all these comments as material for their thesis which will sit in a library somewhere, unread, before the Venus effect kicks in. But yes, I do hope they are taking notice. Your observation that JA is too highly invested in the mosque tragedy is a clever one. All indications are this little issue could be the equivalent of the ‘shower head’ fiasco that did Helen in. And that would be a tragedy for this country indeed.
Paul Judge.
“Little crawlies”
Why don’t you just say “cockroaches”?
You are a prime example of where the hatred actually is in our political system and why the hate speech laws are so dangerous.
Those like you on the left have gone dangerously off the rails, people referring to others with different political views as “little crawlies” should never be in charge of who can say what, let alone near the levers of power.
There is no team of 5 million for you, or governing for all people is there?
Just enforcement of mantra on to those less worthy.
You are a cult.
BTW a bunch of the “right wingers” you deride here are formerly of the left in my case life long until the last election.
The combined ignorance and arrogance from people like yourself -your hubris- is what drives people away.
You are your own shower head moment.
Correct Paul Judge, agree 100.
Yes Tova went on many trips with dear John now she is spoiling the Nation program, I liked watching it cause the guy on it was neutral and he treated everyone the same. I’m with you Mr Judge whether they are right wing or not do they think the right wing parties can do any better cause I don’t think so. All I can see is a deeper divide. I can also see and hear a lot of selfishness. Is it the selfish generation who are doing all this bitching and moaning?
Mike Hosking aka Mr Selfishness… “open the border, let the economy thrive and the people die”
Paul Judge: “Jesus, there’s a lot of right-wingers reading your leftist columns Martyn.”
Best not to construe opposition to this Bill as right wing. Old Lefty, in my case. That’s of course why we read this blog.
The tactic of characterising opposition as right wing suggests to me that you don’t actually have any substantive countervailing argument.
All the moaning and bitching can you all suggest a better alternative government cause currently I cant see one.
When shes lost Tova then you know its bad.
Yes Tova went on many trips with dear John now she is spoiling the Nation program, I liked watching it cause the guy on it was neutral and he treated everyone the same.
Jacindas eyes are starting to look insane and evil? She has changed so much and so rapidly. The contempt and arrogance is shining through. About as empathetic as a spider looking upon its new fly friend.
We should only be worried about lies and deceit when her eyebrows are permanently raised, it’s called The Oravida Look”
https://www.newshub.co.nz/politics/timeline-judith-collins-and-oravida-2014050512
To my recent detractors,
Cor blimey! Who would’ve thought? It seems I’ve touched a nerve or something. Ok, I concede I did use an unfortunate choice of words in little crawlies. I take that back, apologise even, if I caused offence to anybody. I stand by everything else I said though, and I will say even more if anyone cares to know. First off, I like to read Martyn’s columns because he is a Marxist, a rare breed in the current webisphere. Neo-Marxism is the best tool we have for understanding how capitalism works, how it alienates and enslaves us and dominates absolutely everything by turning everything into a commodity. There is nothing outside capitalist ideology except Marxism. Rock n roll runs a good second but is too easily co-opted.
Marxist lefties like to talk with like-minded Marxist lefties in order to develop strategies to combat the arch enemy – fascism. When we come onto a Marxist blog site only to encounter right wing numbskulls then it becomes problematic. I don’t like having to defend my position, I’m over that, just like I’m over explaining the science of climate change to climate deniers. It’s tedious.
Many of these people are in the same category as conspiracy theorists. Has anyone ever tried to argue with a chemtrail conspiracist? You’ll know it’s hopeless, right? Everything you say comes back at you and nothing takes hold. They have access to the special knowledge and everything I say just proves to them how I’ve been brainwashed by the ‘powers’ that are doing this to us.
I am sorry to say that many right-wingers are in this same mindset. They appear to have little understanding of the history of this country, how Labour governments have been reformist governments, doing the things that the ‘born to rule’ Tories have neglected to do, and never have the imagination to do. Worse, they don’t seem to grasp the fact that right-wing National led governments have enabled the corporations’ control of almost all forms of political and social power. The National Party have functioned largely as a puppet political class, propped up by a compliant press and a gullible voting public largely voting against their own interests. We would see this if or when they ever return to power; like Boris they wouldn’t care if the bodies piled up in the streets, as long as business was back in profit.
Labour governments are little miracles even if they win one term. It they win two or three terms it is even more miraculous. The power of democracy, the peoples’ voice over the corporate press. If you don’t believe me just look at the NZ Herald. Every single political commentator is pro-Natz. Simon Wilson is a lefty but he only writes on the Auckland Council issues. And look at Tova O’Brien and the rest of the media shockjocks. Enough said.
The Labour Party will never organise the revolution. They are a reformist capitalist party, and their agenda is liberal and social democratic. I agree with Martyn in this column on his central point. They should focus on the failures of the intelligence apparatus, and leave this hate speech quagmire well alone. The whole issue is too complicated for many people and there is too much right wing rhetoric with too much persuasive power to distort the argument, as we are seeing.
But having said that, JA is quite clearly talking about speech that incites violence. Anyone doubting the need for such laws should maybe watch this documentary about the crimes committed in Franco’s Spain. Now Franco’s Spain had a lot of little crawlies, because that’s what they were; fascists. This is what happens when hate turns into politics. And they are still fighting for justice in that country.
https://www.aljazeera.com/program/witness/2021/6/25/facing-francos-crimes-the-silence-of-others
Seems like the sad old right wing 30%er men are at it again. They have nothing else to moan about. Now that Aussie, Singapore and Taiwan are floundering in covid-19. They can only talk about hate speech and vaccine roll out. No hate law will stop me or any of you slagging off the party leaders or the parties. all a hate-Jacinda beat-up. Wake up my friends, Jacinda and Labour have given us the safest, most free and corrupt-less country in the world. So rejoice and enjoy the best country in the world.
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