Wow.
Jan Logie’s desire to remove legal defences to rape and remove legal protections given every individual so more men are convicted of sexual assault should terrify Labour strategists.
Her total refusal to accept any point made by Jack as he methodically highlighted problem after problem with the Greens new sexual violence legislation was chilling.
She is as driven as a Qanon anti-vaxxer in her self righteousness.
The hostility she showed very straight and very fair questions from Jack felt like someone challenged on Twitter who doesn’t get outside their bubble.
3 things from the interview.
1 – It’s clear that despite assurances victims won’t have to come back to court, they actually can be which dismantles the argument of making it easier for them.
2 – Obviously giving early interviews dismantles the right to silence which is supposed to be legally sacrosanct.
3 – The desire to remove any legal defence by the man to an allegation of assault will certainly see more convictions but as Jack pointed out we are actually getting 31% convictions with 9% not guilty, so does gerrymandering the legal playing field by removing protections and defences going to get more justice?
Jan’s performance will be loved by the Greens on Twitter but will have middle NZ gasping.
Once the enormity of these changes are understood by the wider public, parents will stop fearing their daughter being sexual assaulted and start fearing their sons of being accused of sexual assault.
The backlash to this will not be pretty.
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I’m absolutely no apologist for arsehole rapists or insecure blokes that think they have a divine right to take advantage of, and abuse their victims – predators across the spectrum of sexual preferences.
However, there’s only one thing worse than rape – and that’s falsely accusing someone of it. And there are a few grifters that try that on.
And I also wonder how Jan, or the woke generally reconcile that with the shit Golriz got over defending (more specifically providing/acting as legal defence) for arseholes – something I believe she should never have been criticised for. Unless you subscribe to the law of the jungle.
She (and others) seem to justify her stance purely on the basis that more often or not, those charged with rape are actually guilty, and that the falsely accused are just going to have to suck it up as collateral damage.
I wonder how that would all play out if the death penalty was still in vogue. Ooops! Awe sorry!
If the Green Party want to die in a ditch over this – so be it.
And here’s me and a few other whanau thinking of voting for them next time round.
What’s it going to be James and Marama?
C’mon OnceWasTim,,,, I’m 99% certain you would find being raped by me a lot worse than me accusing you of raping me ,,, and although both options are bad, you left out the most common rape scenario of rape victims receiving no justice at all ,,,, this would happen to the magnitude of fuckin heaps more real rape and sexual abuse victims than false accusers.
Our legal system is not fit for purpose in both the investigation stage and sentencing options ,,, many victims would prefer a acknowledgement of wrong and change in behavior preventing anyone else getting assulted in the future from their offenders… rather than prison punishment.
A tribunal of three comprised of a judge and psychologists with counseling / interview skills should thoroughly investigate alleged assaults with the process being based on establishing the truth rather than obtaining convictions,,,,
Sentencing options should be based on the priorities of obtaining the best possible results for the victim, offender and society .
Justice for the victims ,,,,, changed behavior in offenders ,,,,,, less violence and more safety for society.
boot-strapping ideaology on our already rooted justice system will just see it fail in different ways ,,,, I hope the Greens wake up to that.
To their credit they didn’t just turn their back on the present state of failure that Judith Collins and the Nats ignored.
Even worse Judith collins and the Nats deliberately chose to keep violence and sexual assault levels unnecessarily high when they governed in the interests of profits from booze rather than safety in our communities.
The Nats have as much concern for children and women as Jeffry epstein and harvey weinstein ,,, Super Predators.
This is absolutely not the way of leaving a struggle like this up to a poor and scared group of people. The wealthy and privileged few are the ones who fight for inclusion and niceness and all that. That rape is illegal is not a matter of evidence. There are sharp discriminations against rapists and this idea that the accuse and the courts are weighted against victims is totally absurd and has nothing to do with convictions.
We don’t get to do solutions when you’re in a semantic argument. In the workplace, it is 100% of the employers’ responsibility to create a safe and fun workplace. If its a random attack its police responses. Ultimately Rape is demonised. If Jan Logie wants to blind herself to the consequences of what shes doing that’s her opinion.
“C’mon OnceWasTim,,,, I’m 99% certain you would find being raped by me a lot worse than me accusing you of raping me”
Sexual assault is a broad concept. Without diminishing the seriousness of sexual assault, or rape for that matter, there are different levels of culpability and different levels of seriousness of consequences for the victim. At the same time, how one individual receives an accusation of rape or sexual assault will be different to someone else’s. Suicide isn’t an unheard of response, regardless of guilt.
“C’mon OnceWasTim,,,, I’m 99% certain you would find being raped by me a lot worse than me accusing you of raping me……….”
I think you make an assumption right at the very start of your comment. Much of what you say following though I agree with.
(I mean, how big is your endowment, and do you measure it in length – and from where- or breadth)
E.G:
“Our legal system is not fit for purpose in both the investigation stage and sentencing options……..” and the rest of the pargraph
Actually, most of the rest of it.
I don’t presume to think that other people that have suffered various forms of abuse want the same thing.
Some simply feel pity for the perpetrator/rapist/murderer (something I “identify” with (in this space going forward).
Some want revenge
Some just want to be believed
Some want to prevent it from happening to others
Some see it as a hazard of the business they’ve chosen to get themselves into
etc.
etc.
etc, …………
AND various combinations of the above
It’s kind of luverly though that Jan (and presumably you) want to advocate on the basis of some singular notion of how a victim OR RATHER “victimhood” feels.
But thankyou for your concern, various offences taken, feelings of something must be done, on their/ our/ my behalf.
They DON’T all feel the same
I often wonder what I’d be capable of if my own daughter or children generally were subjected to abuse. The thoughts sometimes worry me.
I assume Jan has done some peer-reviewed academic research. Maybe she’s even had some personal experience. Maybe she’s just done one of those market surveys.
This personage’s view is that unless Jan has some personal experience of some form of traumatic abuse that prevents her from day-to-day functioning without some dysfunction to blame, she’d be better off advocating for activist cyclists – maybe even those that think they have a superior right of control in a bus lane. If she wins that debate, I’ll kit her out in a set of the latest designer lycra – no expense spared.
OnceWasTim,,,, “It’s kind of luverly though that Jan (and presumably you) want to advocate on the basis of some singular notion of how a victim OR RATHER “victimhood” feels.”
I’m advocating for a systen that has the best chance of establishing the Truth ,,, including false accusations..
I never meant ” they all feel the same” when writing “What’s best for the victim”.
… and to clear up any confusion when you wrote …. “However, there’s only one thing worse than rape – and that’s falsely accusing someone of it. ” ,,, you were not stating a fact for everyone but your own personal opinion feelings.
I disagree if you applied your “worse than scenario to me.
And I personally feel that CLint Rickards and his pack raping mates crimes are worse than the crimes from a scenario where ‘ a grifting’ young woman had falsely accused them.
You may feel different and I’m sure you would never state your opinion as fact to someone like Louise Nicholas …
Don’t presume to think for me regarding alignment with the greens on this either …
Unless my specific suggestions for better outcomes regarding rape and false accusation coincide with theirs , which I have not seen or read
” different areas of failure” was my prediction for them ,,
I doubt you would be any better ,,, if your “worse than” opinion became a fact in Law.
Jack must be thrown in the tower. How dare he question the elites? Lib/Lab/Nats are working to protect us. We must not question them, just like the Kim family in North Korea. They are only doing what they do for our good, afterall they are much smarter than us. Why do you think Jacinda wants people to sleep in cars and motels and thinks its good for kids to go hungry and never have a chance to buy a home in their own county. It is not to punish them, instead, it is all about character building. She is making people suffer now to help them appreciate what other people have in the future. So caring…..Long Live Jacinda!!!!
The onus should ALWAYS be with the accuser. Imagine a world where I could say someone sexually abused me / assaulted me / ripped me off / hate crimes / stole from me etc and it’s automatically believed as fact, and the onus is subsequently on the accused to prove that it didn’t happen at their cost? The legal system would be turned upside down overnight with false claims (since it will cost you nothing to make a claim with potentially both devastating and profitable results). I guess it could work if you allow for counter-claims decided the same way – i.e. where “not guilty” verdicts are perceived as “innocent” and the accused then goes after the accuser for filing “false” abuse claims… a rabbit hole we need to think very carefully about before going down.
No doubt Jan Logie has put herself in the position of being an accused. Or someone she knows and loves. Which would mean of course that for some perceived greater good she is prepared to be a sacrifice or sacrifice them.
Maybe she hasn’t considered that. Then again maybe her sympathy/empathy/understanding gene has taken a big whack in the head and isn’t operating properly.
All women are innocent until proven guilty and all men are guilty until proven innocent. How’s that for equality?!
The Greens have lost their way unfortunately – they’re rubbish on the environment now, and bringing in epic wastes of space like the Mexican bloke. They will learn a costly lesson if they learn it at all – that rainbow issues are closer to 6% than 1 in 6. Clark had to learn it the hard way too.
Good article.
Firstly I think sexual crime is reprehensible and a lot more needs to be done in particular educating people about sexual consent across ALL classes, more on alcohol/drug abuse and also our poor immigration laws that allow visitors into NZ while turning a blind eye to their criminal activities in particular those that are sexual and opportunistic criminals.
There are many people in NZ with problems, physiologically and mentally (nearly half will suffer from a mental illness in their life https://www.vitae.co.nz/uploads/General%20Prevalence%20of%20Mental%20Illness%20in%20New%20Zealand%201.pdf), then there are those who want to get back at people, put in sexual allegations to get child custody, or be brainwashed into believing it, (aka Peter Ellis’s victims of satanic, child abuse). All of these can be factors for false or exaggerated complaints.
The police have their own issues with sexual crimes and in some cases are the criminals themselves operating at the highest levels. I don’t envy police in many ways because it is extremely difficult in many cases to work out real, false or exaggerated sexual complaints while encouraging real victims to prosecute.
What I can’t work out is why the woke are so keen for so many rapists and abusers to be given residency and permanent residency in NZ? A friend of mine, was told they could not live on-site and pick fruit down Hawkes Bay because they were a woman and there was so much risk of rape. NZ’s preferred government migrants and visitors now come from countries that seem to have massive discrimination against women, but somehow this all stops when they get of a plane? REALLY???
Then in some woke guilt (we see woke guilt post Tarrent when they accuse all of NZ of racism instead of concentrating on how the OZ guy got into NZ, lived here for years planning his terrorism and was given semi-automatic weapons licenses. NZ Government (police, IRD) do not bother to check up on new residents here and to see if they are harming others and obeying the laws. No wonder why foreign nationals in NZ (supported by near 100% foreign owned or migrant run media in NZ) have become so entitled to their individual rights in NZ while not actually being a citizen of this country!
Government need to look at causal factors, men who seem to hate women, ‘easy’ culture of meeting on tinder and starting short term relationships with people that you don’t know, the culture post 1980’s of having kids willy nilly with acrimonious break ups, resulting screwed up kids who later become very dangerous murderers and fantasists . AKA Jesse Shane Kempson
Sexual torture of teenagers and very unusual behaviour coming out.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/teen-torture-trial-witness-tells-police-of-dimetrius-pairamas-final-moments/QRUT2JNLWAZNNMWUMQRCHNMYLE/
False/unusual reporting of rape and poor prosecution or practise around rape seems to fall through the cracks in NZ. (Possibly police are targeting ‘easy targets’ to prosecute on sex crimes who might not be guilty to try and get their appalling rates of conviction up on paper, instead of actually going after high functioning rapists who are guilty but are harder to convict as they have better lawyers and more crafty).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Ellis_(childcare_worker)
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/how-jealous-lies-sent-a-teenage-boy-to-prison-for-rape-he-didnt-commit/CUI5EFPR7FCILMGEL76DVW7MLQ/
Why are teenagers in prison put in with convicted rapists???? Disgusting.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/prison-rape-trial-why-was-young-inmate-double-bunked-with-violent-rapist/GO7KEFBWEFR6AIL62TOEOBCYMY/
The woke need to actually look at what is going wrong in NZ with justice because it is not about the rape, but very poor justice in general in NZ.
Then the bizarre status given to serious new migrant criminals of poor character in NZ who are not deported and given so many additional chances by NZ justice – they then go on to murder in NZ. Police only seem to take it seriously and prosecute them properly after they murder someone. Too late for the victim!
Judge: Extraordinary that killer Rohit Singh maintained fiction during murder trial
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12254105
Mandeep Singh sentenced to life in prison for central Auckland murder
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/72529233/Mandeep-Singh-sentenced-to-life-in-prison-for-central-Auckland-murder
Dunedin doctor Venod Skantha found guilty of murder of Amber-Rose Rush
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12288940
West Auckland stabbing: Man remanded in custody after been charged with murder
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/114976886/west-auckland-stabbing-man-remanded-in-custody-after-been-charged-with-murder
Indian sentenced to life for murdering wife in NZ
https://www.hindustantimes.com/world/indian-sentenced-to-life-for-murdering-wife-in-nz/story-MpDOdR9DJXcKI2pkfpBTMK.html
More sexual criminals gaining citizenship and residency in NZ…
Child abuser wins right to stay in New Zealand for humanitarian reasons
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/84891031/child-abuser-wins-right-to-stay-in-new-zealand-for-humanitarian-reasons
Child abuse dad avoids deportation on humanitarian grounds to stay with family
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/76059417/
New resident convicted of sex offending twice, won’t be deported
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11837608
Judge’s difficult sentencing of a former refugee who won’t stop offending
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/111480343/judges-difficult-sentencing-of-a-refugee-who-wont-stop-offending
Rapist wins case to be allowed to stay in NZ
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/327784/rapist-wins-case-to-be-allowed-to-stay-in-nz
I find it interesting that Martyn, and many of the commenters here perceive the Logie interview as being an attack on men by women. Why is that?
As Tame laid out at the beginning of the interview, there still are lots of problems with NZ legal processes, making it hard to get convictions for sexual violence & abuse. The main issue is, how is this to be fixed?
Where are ‘men’ and ‘women’ actually mentioned anywhere in the interview? As I recall, throughout, both Tame and Logie talk about “complainants”, “defendants”, “victims”, etc. But biological sex is not mentioned.
Logie and all the Green MPs are also strongly pushing the idea, that being a man or woman is an internal feeling, and not based on biological sex (allegedly randomly assigned) at birth. Logie is all for any man who wants to self IDing in law, as a woman (and vice versa) in a one-step administrative process.
It’s also interesting how, yet again, Logie is following laws, processes and agendas from overseas. Logie also does this with genderism – a US corporate funded capitalist move to disconnect humans from natural bodies. Following agendas from powerful western countries, without a lot of NZ-based critique can lead people in dangerous directions. (See Jenifer Bilek’s research on the US gender identity industry https://www.the11thhourblog.com/post/the-gender-identity-industry-transhumanism-and-posthumanism)
So, after having alienated a lot of women, many of whom were long-term Green Party voters and members,with their neoliberal gender ideology, Logie and the GP are now alienating a lot of left wing men?
The Greens have worthy intentions, but their ways of going about it don’t carry a lot of the public with them. Instead of just referring to what’s done overseas, let’s have strong evidence-based and widespread democratic discussion with NZers – with those who have diverse opinions, including those many of us disagree with – and focused on what is actually happened in NZ and will work in NZ.
Workers on the migrant worker schemes are raping woman – what is being done about this? … cheap labour seems more important than safety of woman.
Vineyard worker charged with raping woman outside Blenheim bar
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/122052155/vineyard-worker-charged-with-raping-woman-outside-blenheim-bar
Seasonal workers accused of rape
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/121976014/seasonal-workers-accused-of-rape
Rape conviction upheld
https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/southland/rape-conviction-upheld
Woke seem to ignore the obvious easier ways to avoid sexual predators coming to NZ, aka tighten up standards and deport immediately any signs of sexual aggressiveness and inappropriateness from visitors here.
It is about time, visiting people facing minor criminal charges in NZ appeal their charges from outside NZ, rather than using bad behaviour to stay here and lawyers and judges in NZ discharging poor behaviour from visitors to NZ so people of poor character get to stay in NZ and go on to offend as citizens and permanent residents.
It’ll terrify Labour only so far as it’s a direct threat to the culture of their favoured constituents: National Party voters. The same bunch who condoned John Key’s café behaviour, and that’s even before some very weird images emerged from actual party events.
Back on planet Earth, the Crimes Amendment Act 2005, starting section 127, covers all her complaints. How is it that there are so many sexual assaults being committed against children that contain an element of either romanticised gender roles, or consent by the victim, and the perpetrators are getting off scot free on technicalities, and no one’s heard of any of them? That’s the context she gives in the first few minutes of the interview. There is something wrong in her brain. You can’t solve the normal human emotional response to trauma with legislation. Her answer is to disassemble our perspective of justice. How this military grade feminist got anywhere near a position to suggest fundamental changes to the law without understanding the law, or being able to distinguish between the clunky processes of justice and delicate personal psychology of trauma, means hundreds of people at some point either ignored her hoping she would go away, or thought, “Yeah, sounds legit”. Feminism as it’s though of under the phrase “the idea that women are people too” is a left wing concern, because it examines relationship. The kind of feminism Jan Logie represents is a right wing concern, because it divides for the sake of power over another. The short answer is don’t vote Greens, but Labour will probably beat you to it.
I think you are somewhat misrepresenting Logie. Firstly, she never mentions “gender” throughout the interview. In the first few minutes, she does use the examples of parents reporting the re-traumatising of their children in sexual assault trials, and that a lot of sexual assault trials rest on myths. She goes on to say in the UK children and vulnerable people are allowed to give pre-recorded testimony. And further that all sexual assault victims are considered vulnerable.
This is the crux of Logie’s proposals for law change.
She is asking for sexual assault victims give pre-recorded evidence so they don’t need to keep repeating their story to a large theatre of people.The opposing concern is that this means defense lawyers only get to cross examine the alleged victim well in advance of the trial, when all the evidence may not be yet available. It is claimed this will hinder their ability to prepare their defense case.
In this interview by John Campbell last year with a lawyer speaking for defense lawyers, he contests their views strongly. he asks why are convictions for sexual assault so low in comparison with other alleged crimes. The lawyer says the problem with sexual assault is often there are no witnesses or CCTV cameras. So it’s a he said, she said scenario.
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/defence-lawyers-concerned-bill-protect-victims-sexual-assault-could-lead-unfair-trials
What is thrown into contention is that the judgement of judges may be flawed, eg in determining what questions the defense can ask of the victim. Also in Logie’s interview, a lot of it rests on looking for ways to get rid of flaws in trial process, when the lawyers and judges aren’t actually following the law as it stands.
Interestingly, while Logie is holding up UK legal processes as state of the art, and many men are throwing up their hands in horror at Logie’s proposals…. there have been concerns in the last year that rape convictions in the UK are at their lowest levels – something that partly supports both sides of the argument.
The reasons given for the low point in UK rape convictions, are that police are reluctant to submit cases for charging because it’s so hard to get a conviction; cases are taking longer to get to court because of the amount of investigation that needs to be done.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-53588705
To be fair, men need to take responsibility and not put themselves in a position where they are going to be falsely accused of rape.
First of all Jan Logie is the last one we should have let near any of this. That we would allow these hysterical women to tell us what to do is stupid.
What is a “position where they are going to be falsely accused of rape”? Being alone with a woman? (or man.)
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