Well that escalated quickly.
What was looking like a pretty chill Waitangi Day with a couple of vague promises and empty gestures thrown in to gloss over the gnawing housing crisis, rental crisis, poverty crisis and inequality crisis turned incandescent with rage as Judith Collins and Marama Davidson clashed over Intersectionist Identity Politics.
Judith claimed it was sexist that she couldn’t speak at Waitangi’s marae and Marama responded with a blistering attack on Judith claiming she was hateful towards Māori tikanga.
It’s become an eye rolling woke clash on Intersectionism and who gets to play at being the most disadvantaged.
Judith is standing up for universal human rights and the equal treatment of women, Marama is standing up for Maori protocol and not being told by cracker how that should occur.
Both are of course right and both of course are wrong.
It is unacceptable in the extreme that the female leader of the Opposition can not speak on our National Day where our National Day is celebrated.
Equally, it is unacceptable in the other extreme for Pakeha to demand anything on a Marae they are being hosted on.
BUT both have to actually accommodate the other here.
NZ is a secular progressive Democracy where the universal rights of its citizens is paramount and not being able to speak on our National Day because of your gender at the venue that focus occurs at is unacceptable.
However, NZ is a bicultural country and we celebrate tikanga and Māori authority over that.
Judith reeks of white feminism privilege in demanding changes to Māori protocol while Marama’s woke moralistic sanctimonious tone on the issue will probably have most New Zealanders switching off.
The fact Jacinda is allowed to speak kinda sinks the tikanga defence and that same exception granted her should be extended to the Leader of the Opposition.
Ultimately this fight between Judith and Marama was identity politics desperately looking for an identity to be political about.
Meanwhile, 1 in 5 children are in poverty (a disproportionate amount of them Māori), over 20 000 are on a waiting list for social hosing (a disproportionate amount of them Māori), Maori are 380% more likely to be convicted of a crime, 200% more likely to die from heart disease and suicide, are paid 18% less and 34% leave school without a qualification. They also die earlier and suffer more health issues, but sure, let’s make the day all about two women bickering over who is more deplorable.
If we are all finished with the puffing egos can we get back to the actual issues please?
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I would guess that it comes down to Making an exception for someone who is viewed as a friend to Maori, verses the leader of the party that has traditionally represented the colonial privilege as the paramount objective… If it was my choice, I wouldn’t let the Collins creature within 20km of anywhere that she could waffle her waffle, and get positive coverage on the colonial news media… Certainly not on the Marai.. The day she (and her rabble) shows herself to be ready to embrace the necessity of reconciliation with sincerity, will be the day the welcome may come… Until then, she is the enemy, so has no rights to expect anything but contempt for her behavior..
Wait, what is that I hear in the distance? Could it be Judith Collins demanding that a woman should be the next pope?
As you were, it was my imagination
Nice!
Can someone born as a woman but now identifying as a man speak on the Marae? The converse? Further, does one need a penis to speak?
Helen Clark didn’t find being a man a problem.
Such a pity she too was caught up in neoliberal bollocks.
We all pay the price for decades of institutionalised failure.
once again Marama shows her two faced stance . Under her left wing banner she is rightly down on any action that denigrate women but wearing her Maori hat she defends it happening on a Marae. Wearing her Green hat she is all for protecting the envioment being trashed by over population but then has 6 children. With all the problems to face re poverty lack of housing unemployment her and the Greens think we have time to worry about conversion therapy .
And on Collins, Trev?
In time JC will be replaced as National has to move to the centre ground and perhaps Shane Reti is being groomed as leader, after all being a doctor and Maori is more appealing and may well bring in Maori voters reducing Labour’s appeal.
As for MD, give her all the publicity she craves for, the Greens never appealed to me, a one piece climate change party and anyway, being lectured to by 20+ know alls two from overseas who lack life experience in our country will never win my vote.
How bizarre that a person who is destroying your people at a greater rate than has ever been seen before in NZ via rampant inequality is allowed to speak at all? Where is the outrage? Another smiling assassin…..
“ When shall we three meet again again? In thunder, lightening or in rain? “
When the PM announced, “I promise to report on a wedding soon,” it was again, inappropriate use of a solemn occasion: this was about Ardern, irrelevant to the Waitangi proceedings, and of less interest than the price of fish – which is absurdly costly in a country surrounded by the water which makes fishing barons sufficiently rich to warrant a dong from Harry and Meghan’s gran’s reps – blotted by the odd crippling industrial accident – exploited foreign workers far from home and family cheaper to utilise than home-grown trainees or trained fisherfolk directly benefitting our local economy.
“When the PM announced, “I promise to report on a wedding soon,” it was again, inappropriate use of a solemn occasion…”
Did Ardern ‘make an announcement’? Or did you mean she made a passing comment? Was it in answer to a question? Part of a group of people just talking about ‘stuff’ that someone made into an announcement?
Maybe when she is in Waitangi or at least around Waitangi Day she shouldn’t talk about ‘other stuff,’ no words other that those about some defined subjects should pass her lips.
I gather that the “ promise” to report on a wedding was made to Maori wardens, possibly in the context of conversations concerning unfulfilled promises – and perhaps this was a “promise” of significance to the listeners.
Well done Martyn you nailed the salient points.
Jacinda’s Waitangi work is done. She “gifted” the new Matariki holiday as yet another “sweet” distraction, but she could have held it in reserve with Judith and Marama making her distraction job even easier.
Skyrocketing house prices, rocketing rents, a Reserve Bank set on enriching the richest, desperate citizens in cars, garages, hotels, and growing waiting lists, is where 100% focus needs to be until every lever is pulled to sort it asap.
Journalists need to be laser kiwi focused on this crisis this whole term and not get distracted by “John Key” flags.
It’s depressing isn’t it, that Ardern and her advisors may consider that the proclamation of Matariki will pacify the natives, and warm the lives of those dwelling in doorways, and on park benches, and in car boots, car ports, garages, sheds and aunty’s wash-houses, and light up the eyes of children whose lives are still dimmed by the povidy which leaves a permanent imprint, one way or another.
Note that the men wore suits, or were suit-like, and the senior Maori women were clad in coats or jackets, as we once were when visiting in a sacred place, but Ardern, Collins and the GG turned up just wearing frocks, before getting feather -cloaked, and they may have been better advised to observe a more appropriate and courteous dress code.
Yes agreed, and as a person of some Irish blood I feel the right to express my dismay at the media incorrectly spelling the name of the esteemed incumbent’s progeny. Niamh is pronounced as ‘neve’ but could at least be spelled correctly: http://www.nancy.cc/2008/03/17/how-to-pronounce-popular-irish-names-aoife-cian-niamh-oisin/
Of course more important than my pedantic Waitangi Day post is the fact that there are people living in tents not too far from the celebrations and those left to clean up the litter live in fear of the possible attendant coronavirus contagion.
She knew that, even a few of us knew that, but to save her girl having to spend her life correcting people, she spelt it phonetically. Not like it’s the first time.
PS it is lovely name however it is spelt
As a relief teacher, I now ask children to respond when I mis-pronounce their names. ‘Nate’ was a normal name, until I encountered a nice Pasifika guy who pronounced it ‘Nahteh’.
Not helped by dumb parents who deliberately make up stupid spellings of normal names.
In Vino: “Nate’ was a normal name, until I encountered a nice Pasifika guy who pronounced it ‘Nahteh’.”
I used to work in Maori and Pacific communities: that pronunciation of “Nate” doesn’t surprise me at all. It’s a bit like the variation in pronunciation of the same names across national borders in Europe.
“….stupid spellings of normal names.”
God knows why people do this. It’s completely bizarre; very close to what we refer to as “stupid name”. Such parents might want to reflect on how their kids will manage in school and later on, when they’ve been lumbered with a weirdly-spelled, but otherwise unexceptionable name.
gin hag: ” Niamh is pronounced as ‘neve’ but could at least be spelled correctly….”
I’m also of Irish descent, and the misspelling of Irish names irritates me as well. And mispronunciation….
This is a country with immigrants – and descendants of immigrants – from all over the world. NZ citizens need to get to grips with names which aren’t English in origin.
With regard to the PM’s daughter, I understand that her second name is “Aroha”, and I assume that she has her father’s surname (Gayford).
Before choosing names, her parents might have given some consideration to the acronym with which they’ve saddled her. And – given the current practice of women keeping their maiden names – she’s stuck with that for life.
It was something to which we paid attention when naming offspring: don’t make their lives any harder than they will be anyway.
Beats the hell out of shiloh pitt when it’s spoonerism-ed
Rae: “Beats the hell out of shiloh pitt when it’s spoonerism-ed”
Heh! Yup, Hollywood types have made an art form out of giving their offspring stupid names, have they not? Then they protest at the inevitable spoonerisms that result.
Your not in Ireland d estere your in NZ so bite the bullet.
covid is pa: “Your not in Ireland d estere your in NZ so bite the bullet.”
Still graceless, I see, Michelle. And still unable to spell.
Spelling is a white colonialist construct. Grammar is worse, and part of an international Marxist conspiracy to enable car boot lawyers, and income tax avoidance.
Spelling errors are best ignored for fear of hurting people’s feelings.
Grammar has white elitist and imperial Roman connotations even if it can be fun and helps to avoid confusion, ambiguity, and the necessity to employ sub-editors and proof readers.
U r knot n gw2mala now – or even neyelin, Distear.
She could change her name like Agnes hyphen Mary Brooke of Nelson morphed into an Amy after separating from the column of the Dom.
Applewood: “She could change her name like Agnes hyphen Mary Brooke of Nelson morphed into an Amy…”
Yeah, that was interesting. I assumed that Amy was A-M’s daughter. Until I discovered otherwise.
“universal rights of its citizens is paramount”
Yeah, I don’t think that’s going to last much longer if the Establishment Woke have anything to do with it … the power-hungry authoritarian ex-boarding school “Left” are nothing if not profoundly anti-Enlightenment. A Reactionary little Cult posing as “progressive”. Low income ‘Outgroups’ (in the Intersectional schema) will very swiftly become third class citizens.
If female pollies cannot speak on marae, it’s long past time that the Waitangi Day ceremonies were moved to other venues.
European culture and practices just showed up on the marae at least 500 years late to deceive Maori out of prime producing land. Its no wonder your teetz ideas are yet converte maori to your Johnny come latelyness. Geezus who the hell do you think you are?
“Geezus who the hell do you think you are?”
Somebody bunched your undies again, Sam? Who is it this time?
Are you delusional, who the hell do you think you are dictating how things are done on a marae?
Disagree D’ Esterre – anyone is entitled to set rules for what happens in their own house. I have banned, “fart” in mine, as it just happens to be a word which I dislike – for no hugely profound reason- but am reasonably comfortable with f..ck and c..nt, the latter of course being a result of listening conscientiously to the advocation of that co-leader of the Green Party. One offspring referred to somebody as a “See you next Tuesday,” and then had to say the Marama word when I failed to understand, and has now given up on both versions, just as I was entering into a new comfort zone.
I misled a grandchild watching me in the lavatory when I told her that I was ‘passing water ‘ when they all say ‘wee ‘ or ‘ pee’, and my older daughter was once appalled at a doctor referring to a ‘poo’ instead of a bowel motion.
I seem to bear sole responsibility for one small grandchild now repeating “ bloody” fairly loudly and expressively, but am not losing any sleep over it, don’t worry if people spill things or break stuff, but woe betide anyone who says “fart” in my house, a place where I set the rules.
I know how to say, “Fuck off” in Chinese, but have only done so once, as that is cultural appropriation, and cultural appropriation is a mortal sin, and I don’t want to go to hell and spend eternity with politicians, estate agents, and assorted relatives.
Adieu.
Snow White: “Disagree D’ Esterre – anyone is entitled to set rules for what happens in their own house.”
I don’t disagree.That’s not what I wrote. Read my comment again.
I don’t care about marae rules: they are what they are.
Nonetheless, NZ ought not to be commemorating Waitangi Day in venues where female pollies aren’t allowed to speak. It doesn’t chime with our modern democracy.
“I know how to say, “Fuck off” in Chinese…”
Heh! So do I. In Mandarin. A fellow student taught me that, not the lecturer. I shouted it to great effect many years ago, against the gypsies of Rome who were trying to pick our pockets.
Back then, that wasn’t in the dictionary. The naughty words were never in the dictionaries in those days, though it looks as if they are now.
“…I don’t want to go to hell and spend eternity with politicians, estate agents, and assorted relatives.”
In truth, it’d probably be more interesting than the other place. Most especially if you’re with people who were guilty of cultural appropriation. I’d like to see what they’d do to the cultural practices in Hades.
I did read what you said, but the point is, the hosts call the shots, regardless of the venue/venues.
Relocating Waitangi Day celebrations to another location just wouldn’t gel, logistically, physically, or metaphysically – it’s unthinkable, but maybe you could raise it with Ngaphuhi, start a dialogue…
Change will come, and it is best coming from among the persons directly involved – I’d start with not having to see big bare male backsides when flax -skirted warriors jump around ( I find it culturally insensitive ), and I suppose the silence of the women could come next, but Marama and Judith’s spat doesn’t provide a particularly compelling argument for anything much.
Snow White: “Relocating Waitangi Day celebrations to another location just wouldn’t gel, logistically, physically, or metaphysically – it’s unthinkable….”
Last I looked, there were two parties to the Treaty. There’s no in-principle reason why the events cannot be held elsewhere than Waitangi. And, of course, ceremonies are held all over NZ: I’ve been to one on Banks Peninsula, many years ago.
“….but maybe you could raise it with Ngaphuhi, start a dialogue…”
I’ll take that in the spirit in which it’s delivered.
No skin off my nose if female pollies cannot speak on marae. But this is 2021: I’d have expected said pollies to make more of a deal about it. The defensiveness of the advocates for things-as-they’ve-always-been is noted.
D’Esterre, these are men calling the shots, and I claim no expertise in getting men to change their minds about anything, but it probably needs to be done with much finesse and diplomacy and delicacy and tact and avoidance of ego-bruising, and above all, letting them think that they made the decision all by themselves, so the best of British luck (yikes) to any women brave enough to have a go at doing so.
the important question here is “who gets to decide who speaks”.
the hau kainga do.
then it is about relationships. and yes the relationship between maori and the prime minister is important enough to want to hear from the PM. but she didnt get to speak during a powhiri.
to buy into the critique of maori culture because it supposedly denegrates women comes from a position of cultural superiority without any real knowledge of how powhiri work and their meaning in the culture.
check out what Rawiri Taonui has to say about all of this. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/waitangi-2021-marama-davidson-says-judith-collins-undermines-wahine-maori-over-marae-speaking-debate/T6ILK7ZR6NSPGBYY4AUI3MJQNA/
and please be aware that when you start denegrating “identity politics” you start to sound a bit like Jordan Peterson. and he is nasty.
cushla: “…to buy into the critique of maori culture because it supposedly denegrates women comes from a position of cultural superiority…”
It isn’t clear at whom your comment is aimed. Chris Trotter, maybe?
In any event, what you say above comes pretty close to a reductio ad absurdum. On that basis, nobody could criticise any other culture because they’d possibly be guilty of cultural superiority. Yet practices in any culture which discriminate against people need to be called out. That includes Maori culture. This is a democracy and we enjoy free speech rights.
“…without any real knowledge of how powhiri work and their meaning in the culture.”
Best not to assume this.
Yeah, I’ve read Rawiri Taonui on this topic. His comments are noted.
“….please be aware that when you start denegrating “identity politics” you start to sound a bit like Jordan Peterson. and he is nasty.”
Identity politics has spawned a resurgence of authoritarianism, here and elsewhere. Along with the most regrettable rise of the cancel culture. Both are to be deplored.
I do not know who Jordan Peterson is, but if he calls out identity politics for the pernicious shysterism that it is, maybe you’d do well to listen to him, even if you don’t like what he says.
Are the disproportionate statistics really a cultural or race issue – or is poverty a structural confound? Most Maori are also over-represented in lower socioeconomic groups and I often wonder whether the issues are not a function of poverty rather than race.
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