How Bill English won the second leaders debate and why it’s bad

By   /   September 6, 2017  /   42 Comments

TDB recommends Voyager - Unlimited internet @home as fast as you can get

Mediaworks sacked John Campbell for politically motivated reasons because of John’s attacks on John Key, Steven Joyce used to own the company and the National Government once gave Mediaworks a sweetheart finance deal on license fees they couldn’t obtain from the open market.

All of that history helped Bill English win the second debate, it’s up to the voters to decide if a foreign owned media company should be able to frame them up as easily as they framed Jacinda up.

Bill English won the second leaders debate.

Not because he debated better, not because he had better arguments and not because he was right.

He won because the entire debate was framed in a way that made it almost impossible for him to look anything other than the winner.

In these debates, there is allocated seating for each parties supporters plus undecided voters, that creates a fair representation for both leaders which matters when the audience is responding. This debate however was sold as ‘the undecided voters’ so the perception was of a room full of people undecided, when it looked far more like a Young Nat Christmas function.

This lack of balance created an antagonistic audience who were clearly not supporters of Labour. To describe that audience as ‘undecided’ would be like describing Patrick Gower as fair and balanced or Mike Hosking as nuanced or Duncan Garner as a 300 IQ point broadcasting genius .

This lack of quality control over who was allowed into the audience created an incredibly difficult bias against Jacinda because it was clear from the start the audience was hostile and obviously biased against Jacinda. That lack of audience quality control impacted every part of the debate.

The condescending sneers from the ‘undecided’ voters taunted and mocked Jacinda’s talk of values like a bunch of drunk first year Business school undergrads barging into a womens studies lecture during orientation week.

Every woman in NZ knows the tone of that jeering laughter shown towards Jacinda, it’s the snide privilege of the self-serving male who laughs at everything that doesn’t immediately serve his interests.

Woman have heard that ridicule for centuries. Those women will stand in ballot booths in less than a month and show that tone the contempt it deserves.

Gower was just as bad as the incredibly biased audience.

While the homocidal chipmunk of NZ current affairs asked hard questions of both, look at his follow up questions and how he accepts Bill’s answers but almost always rejected Jacinda’s answers.

He had all the impartiality of an apartheid era university entrance exam.

Gower started by asking questions of Labour about National’s fictitious $11b budget hole that doesn’t actually exist. Why the fuck is Gower asking Labour that? It’s National’s fictitious lie, it’s up to him as the Journalist to have investigated the claim and made a call as to whether it was a lie, and if it was a lie, to hound Bill until he apologised. Instead we get Gower shrugging his shoulders and referring to it as ‘he said, she said’ which legitimised the lie.

This…

…manages to make the claim of an $11b hole in Labour’s budget look like a creationist at an evolution conference arguing that climate change is a hoax conjured up by the devil.

Bill then manages to get away with this ludicrous claim that he’s going to lift 100 000 kids out of poverty? Really? What the fuck has he been doing for the last 9 years then? The only way National can lift 100 000 kids out of poverty is by losing the election to Labour!

The panel was hosted by the dreadful Lisa Owen…

Another example of Lisa Owen patting herself on the back

… I want to see a version of Hell where Lisa Owen has to interview herself and try and get her answers out before talking over the top of her own questions. The Panel was the same bunch of talking heads that get shipped around every online media company’s podcasts these days and is about as tedious as being stuck between Lizzie Marvelly and Toby Manhire bickering over who is most outraged by Gareth Morgan at a Ponsonby dinner party that gets gate crashed by a sober Matthew Hooton and hungry Ben Thomas.

The lives of real New Zealanders and the exploitation of the vulnerable were barely touched upon and at no point did anyone even mention climate change, you know, that great pressing issue of our age which could spell the end of our civilisation as we know it.

This debate was dangerous. A tilted bias on the playing field, a host who is pretending to be balanced but demands more from Jacinda than Bill and an audience whose draft of ‘undecided voters’ clearly looked like it was from the National Party youth wing membership list.

Bill won because he looked like he won on a playing field totally fixed in his favour.

Mediaworks sacked John Campbell for politically motivated reasons, Steven Joyce used to own the company and the National Government once gave Mediaworks a sweetheart finance deal on license fees they couldn’t obtain from the open market.

All of that history helped Bill English win the second debate, it’s up to the voters to decide if a foreign owned media company should be able to frame them up as easily as they framed Jacinda up.

Jacinda has done something that no other political leader has managed in just 4 weeks, she has taken Labour from 23% to 43%, the tone, delivery and bias so obviously evident in this debate disrespected that feat and was a disservice to public broadcasting.

***
Want to support this work? Donate today
***
Follow us on Twitter & Facebook
***

42 Comments

  1. Red Buzzard says:

    I thought Jacinda came out better than Bill in the debate…he looked old and tired , she young and fresh and enthusiastic and genuine

    However Bill told lots of porkies…and I would have liked it better if she had called him out on them ie the hypocrisy of Bill talking about how Nactional is going to do the best for child poverty and NZ housing…

    It is Nactional that has caused child poverty and the housing crisis! …so lets not be polite about this hypocrisy!

    Where I think Jacinda is equivocal and weak is on the tax issue

    ….taxing land is going to drive NZers off their land or force NZers to subdivide it

    ….is this really what Labour wants?!

    ( they should be careful on this one as it could turn into a backfire and an opposition vote against Labour like the raising of super did last Election)

    If they don’t want wealthy new immigrants and foreigners buying up several farms they should discriminate against overseas buyers and foreigners…force them out of the market as Winston NZF would do

    …my vote goes to NZF

    (Gower did a good job imo…Bill English looked on the back foot to me)

    • WILD KATIPO says:

      … ” It is Nactional that has caused child poverty and the housing crisis! …so lets not be polite about this hypocrisy! ” …

      One of the best sentences I’ve seen for a bit.

      And here’s another thing that pisses me right off about so many in political circles, – this ‘ politeness’ bullshit.

      Politeness my arse !

      When you’ve got shitters who will intentionally cause and then deny they had anything to do with child poverty , homelessness and pollution, – you don’t get polite with them , – you round on those fuckers and call them the pack of bastards they really are and then you drag them unceremoniously before our courts and put them on trial.

      And whether you charge them for treason , willful pollution , or inflicting harm either emotional , psychological , financial or physically , – the last thing you do is act polite and get all gushy and start acting apologetically for them.

      These people are shitsuckers.

      And they deserve every piece of mud, every rotten egg and every dildo they’ve ever had thrown at them.

    • Mike the Lefty says:

      I also thought Jacinda more than held her own.
      The cards were stacked against her and Bill English became Shouty Bill, continually interrupting her and quite frankly losing his cool on a few occasions.
      Gower did nothing to reign in Shouty Bill and just stood there with his usual little evil grin while Jacinda at one point urged him to let Bill get on with his shrieking diatribes implying that he would eventually puff himself out.
      English’s ranting did his campaign no good at all, although it obviously made him feel better.

    • CLEANGREEN says:

      So did I RB; 100%

      Certainly this is a Herculean effort thanks Martyn.

      Today yet another poll is due i believe at 6 pm; – this will (maybe) tell the story.

      TV one Coleman Burton.

    • CLEANGREEN says:

      I know Labour won this debate clearly this morning congratulations to labour here!!!!

      We sent a note of congratulations to him.

      Since Grant Robertson actually stood his ground over the blustering naked arrogance of SS Joyce. brilliant I see light there.
      please watch this debate on RNZ today brilliant so we sent a note congratulating them.

      TO; Grant Robertson; – ‘labour shadow Finance.’
      Subject; Radio NZ Labour/National finance debate.
      7/9/2017

      Grant;
      Congratulations Grant Robertson on your effort on morning report Radio NZ show today.

      http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/338857/watch-live-finance-debate-national-vs-labour

      Though we couldn’t hear all your responses (due to the voluminous over-bearing interjections of Steven Joyce), we all agree you was simply brilliant with your presentation.
      Keep it up please.

      Subject: BEST DEBATE BY LABOUR/NATIONAL ROBERSTON V’s – SS JOYCE -SINCE THE 2017 DEBATE BEGUN; A MUST WATCH.
      http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/338857/watch-live-finance-debate-national-vs-labour

      http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/338857/watch-live-finance-debate-national-vs-labour
      Radio New Zealand
      POLITICS ELECTION 2017
      22 minutes ago
      Watch LIVE: Finance Debate – National vs Labour
      22 minutes ago
      Share this

      Who will do the best job balancing the books? National’s Steven Joyce and Labour’s Grant Robertson join Morning Report in the Auckland studio to debate all the details.

      Mr Joyce doubled down this week on his attack on Labour’s alternative budget, despite a series of economists saying he was wrong.
      Ahead of the second leaders debate on Monday, he claimed Labour had mistakenly not accounted for rolling out operational allowances year on year – describing it as a “$11.7 billion black hole”. He later adjusted his attack, saying Labour had failed to leave room for increased spending in areas beyond health and education.

      The New Zealand Initiative – a libertarian think tank – said National appeared to have made a basic accounting error in its initial criticism.
      ANZ chief economist Cameron Bagrie also suggested Mr Joyce went too far in saying there was a “hole” and said that term was “too strong”.

      But he did say it would be a challenge for Labour to govern within its budget.
      Independent consultancy BERL, which Labour employed to check its books, stood by its work.

      Sent: Thursday, 7 September 2017 8:34 AM
      To: ‘morningreport@radionz.co.nz’
      Subject: FW: NOTE FOR MORNING REPORT – GUYON ESPINER KEEP STEVEN JOYCE UNDER CONTROL AS IN THIS MORING DEBATE BETWEN JOYCE & GRANT ROBINSON WE COULD NOT HEAR GRANT’S RESPONSE TO QUESTIONS FOR JOYCE OVER TALKINNG HIM. PLEASE CONTROL JOYCE.

      TO; Guyon Espiner;

      DEAR GUYON ESPINER, – MORNING REPORT. 7/9/17.

      A GOOD DEBATE WITH AN ISSUE OF COMPLAINT.

      THIS IS A NOTE FOR GUYON ESPINER.

      PLEASE KEEP STEVEN JOYCE UNDER CONTROL AS IN THIS MORING DEBATE BETWEN JOYCE & GRANT ROBINSON WE COULD NOT HEAR GRANT’S RESPONSE TO QUESTIONS FOR JOYCE OVER TALKING HIM. PLEASE CONTROL JOYCE.

    • XRAY says:

      Agreed. English braying like a donkey over Jacinda was not impressive nor was Gower allowing it.

      English plucking out his arse, that National will reduce child poverty by 100,000 raised the only option for National to achieve that, rig the stats or the claim is a bare faced lie.

      English did not impress, he was stale and otherwise making shit up.

      But I do agree that the audience was awful and that I know, the filtering of so called non committed voters was a fiasco.

  2. Richard Christie says:

    Didn’t watch it as it featured Gower and the emo lady.

    Following simple rules allows one to remain uncontaminated.

  3. I Kiddle says:

    Great article. The mainstream NZ media deserve ridicule. This line had me laughing out loud. ” I want to see a version of Hell where Lisa Owen has to interview herself and try and get her answers out before talking over the top of her own questions.”

    • CLEANGREEN says:

      Yes the mainstream need ridicule, but where are all the other opposition Parties on my long requested proposal to set-up a new alternative ‘truly’ independent tv current affairs channel like Channel seven was before National axed it upon taking over in 2008?

      That channel was critical of national and National axed it because the truth hurt them!!!!!

      NZF have the only proposal to construct such a new independent channel!!!!

      Well done NZF you get my vote on this and your transport policy for much more rail.

  4. Grant says:

    The thing is , I don’t think English did win the debate…
    At times he was completely incoherent, dug himself into some big holes and lied without flinching.
    At one point Ardern was so far ahead on points scoring that she just encouraged Bill to keep talking .
    Bill making out the Waterview tunnel was National’s idea and saying it was solving Auckland’s serious traffic and infrastructure problems.
    What planet was he on?
    Ardern’s response was brilliant….” So Bill’s vision for Auckland is a tunnel. How appropriate .”
    Gower then gave English the patsy question of having to describe why he should be Prime minister, and even threw in the line …”and you’re not allowed to say experience”, twice , as some sort freebie promotion for English and yet he still fluffed his answer.
    Gower’s ego got ahead of himself when he completely cocked up the immigration question regarding the number of builder’s required for Labour’s ‘Kiwi Build’ project , saying “Labour would need 51,000 , so how could they then cut immigration…. ”
    Ardern quite correctly answered, about 5,000 builders would be required , but ‘The Ego’ didn’t understand his mistake and so still alluded that Ardern wasn’t across the figures….she was100% correct…
    Then the howler, when English was asked….” if he had to march for one cause it would be” ?.., wait for it , himself…..for fuck’s sake… this guy should be a comedian.
    Ardern’s answer . “Ridding child poverty”.
    The commentators I have read and listened to who say English won the debate because he was giving proper policy detail and was ‘across the numbers’ are seriously deluded and just a bunch of ‘group think’ parrots …
    I broke that whole debate down and he did no such thing.
    They can kid themselves all they like , but Ardern won that debate …it wasn’t even close.
    My Gross Extrapolation Prediction Poll for Election Day has Labour on 43.5 % and National on 36.5 %.

    • Sunny says:

      I think JA won the second debate and she (and the left) will win the election. Bill the Accountant is toast.

      Even Lisa Owen referred to the ripple in the audience when he said he would spend his tax cut on his six kids ( as if the combined salaries of his GP wife and himself on the PM’s wage is not already enough) no one believes he would swim in the Oreti and marching in the streets for himself was the cherry on top of the pie.

      He is a dull, tricky, boring, stale, mansplaining remnant of the distant past….surely NZ will see that?

  5. CLEANGREEN says:

    All present and correctly stated Martyn.

    SS Joyce is NZ’s version of Joseph Goebbels and he was installed as the most influential politician in Government probably by John Key and his association with Goldman Sachs/Bilderberg Group influence and probably when he was caught attending their 2011-12 global meeting with three other NZ political party members (whom we are yet to be notified who they were.)

    We witnessed Joyce’s ‘naked aggression’ towards John Campbell last night when John interviewed Joyce on the 6 pm slot on Checkpoint.

    Listen here to when Joyce shut John down, using his very stern NAZI style overbearing voice.
    Joyce depicted a rant of a barking dog when pushed by john.

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=201857409

    What a sight that was.

    • Tony says:

      We really need to stop comparing these people to the Nazis.

      if you try hard, you can find out a bit about the Nazis, which makes it crystal clear how deeply silly it is comparing Mr Joyce with them.

      When you say he is our Goebbels, it is past silly. The left needs to make better arguments (like Mr Bradbury has) and cut out the rubbish. It makes you (and by extension, those who share your politics) look shrill and ignorant.

      • CLEANGREEN says:

        Tony,

        While i respect your views it is true that this Government are involved with ‘The Bilderberg group’ and if you care to look at that organisation you will clearly see the link that group and National ‘by association’ is to the NAZI doctrine.

        Please study the ‘Bilderberg group” and “enlighten’ yourself.

        Then ask yourself why were there secretly four NZ National Party members present at the 2011/12 conference representing NZ Government at the ‘Bilderberg Group meeting, and more important why was it actively still being kept secret from NZ public when this was a violation of both our laws and the “Logan Act” using possibly our public funds?

        http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_sociopol_bilderberg.htm
        https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/3966vt/the_bilderberg_group_founded_by_a_nazi_and/
        https://www.bilderberg.org/

      • Mike the Lefty says:

        I think you miss the point Tony.
        The reason Joyce is compared with Goebbels is that Joyce is a master of lies, diversion and twisting the meanings of words around, just like the infamous Nazi propagandist.
        That’s what it means, nobody in their right mind would suggest that Joyce is a murdering bastard like Goebbels.
        I am aware that some of Joyce’s enemies gave nicknamed him “Goebbels” but am also aware that some of Jacinda’s enemies have nicknamed her “Phar Lap”.
        Are either acceptable in your view?

  6. Every woman in NZ knows the tone of that jeering laughter shown towards Jacinda, it’s the snide privilege of the self-serving male who laughs at everything that doesn’t immediately serve their interests. Woman have heard that ridicule for centuries.

    Interesting point. But there was a ‘hook’ in the audience laughter when it was made in response to something Bill English said that was supposedly ‘funny’: the audience actually drowned him out.

    Yep, in their eagerness to appreciate the ‘humour’ of their Leader, they laughed a little too quickly, and a little too loud. I couldn’t hear whatever the helkl English had uttered that aroused such mirth from his minions.

    Own goal there, Nat supporters. Next time, Minions, clap and laughter during his talking. And make it real loud .

  7. G.A.P says:

    Totally agree Richard C.

  8. Andy K says:

    Unsurprising, considering a debate hosted by someone whose appearance is that of an unconvincing ventriloquist puppet.

    So after the media’s lament of last week’s debate, they received the sensational spectacle they desired.

  9. WILD KATIPO says:

    … ” Jacinda has done something that no other political leader has managed in just 4 weeks, she has taken Labour from 23% to 43%, the tone, delivery and bias so obviously evident in this debate disrespected that feat and was a disservice to public broadcasting ” …

    It was a bloody disservice to all New Zealanders and particularly for the huge numbers who will be voting BECAUSE of Adern taking over the leadership of the Labour party.

  10. mosa says:

    Despite Jacinda being up against it in any debate run by the two largest biased news organisations she does get cut through and like any leader from the left she has to fight twice as hard and she is the best we have had for a long time but she has to hit English hard and hold him to account because he seems to be getting away with the most appalling deceit.

    The next debate will be crucial and her last opportunity as early voting has already begun.

  11. Andra says:

    I was in the audience. There appeared to be two ways the audience was picked. The first was those on the list to watch TV3 shows like 7 days which was how the audience wrangler got my email address. She’s great, and was very clear in the emails that it was undecided voters who they were looking for. Originally I had invited my mother and aunt but they could not come as they were members of the Labour party. This relied on my honesty that they were affiliated I believe, though the names of every audience member was taken, I wasn’t sure whether that was for security or to check party affiliation.
    If a whole lot of National voters were there, it was because they were being dishonest with the organisers, not because they were deliberately chosen that way. In saying that, it occurs that people who are typically Labour voters, those with less money and free time perhaps. Those who vote National would more likely be able to afford childcare, not be working their second or third job and have the petrol money and vehicle to get to the debate itself. These factors most certainly would have an affect on the demographics of the audience.
    In the venue it seemed like Jacinda was the most popular and that she was getting the best of the audience response. Those around me were certainly pro. Other than Matthew Hooton directly behind me whose comments appeared completely biased, to the extent that I asked him directly ‘what debate are you watching?’
    Jacinda was talking about people and Bill was talking about numbers. I think we all got that. It was clear she cared, and would march to end homelessness, while Bill would march to keep the power he has.

    • Mike the Lefty says:

      Yes, its funny how Bill didn’t want to talk numbers when the subject was child poverty.
      Jacinda said she wanted it to be zero and anything else was disgraceful.
      Bill waffled on about the economy (I’m sure he meant the free market economy) eventually responding and fixing it. But he wouldn’t commit to any target.
      It is all a numbers game with National, to them people get in the way of the kind of numbers they want to talk about.

  12. James Crompton says:

    Totally agree. The questions were framed in a way that made Jacinda look bad. They were all left brain facts and figures questions black and white yes no answers unleashed by a male patriarchy. Bill English’s numbers were celebrated even though they had no substance behind them 100,000 out of poverty. Yeah right! Whatever. And people believe him…lap it up. Yet Jacinda is asked to resign over her superannuation statement and is still goaded for doing it, and Bill won’t resign over anything yet is still celebrated. Bill is given the right to ramble on as Jacinda is polite but whenever Jacinda has something decent to say both Bill and Paddy are interrupting her. I bet if you calculate the time that Jacinda spoke during that debate and the time that Bill spoke there’d be a stark difference. And if you calculated the number of times Jacinda was interrupted by Bill or Paddy compared to the number of times Bill was there’d be a stark difference. It’s funny that they never think of having a woman cheering one of these debates given that it is a woman going for the role. Try balance. Not to mention TV3 and TV1’s media are all biased in favour of the National since bailing them out of debt and replacing people like John Campbell. It’s a travesty the whole thing. It’s sad and boring to watch. And yet people lap it up. The worst of it all is that this is an MMP election and its still being treated as if it were First Past The Post. Where are the other parties. How is this a fair forum. How can people get to know the other candidates if they aren’t given airtime.

  13. CLEANGREEN says:

    I know Labour won this debate clearly this morning congratulations to labour here!!!!

    We sent a note of congratulations to him.

    Since Grant Robertson actually stood his ground over the blustering naked arrogance of SS Joyce. brilliant I see light there.
    please watch this debate on RNZ today brilliant so we sent a note congratulating them.

    TO; Grant Robertson; – ‘labour shadow Finance.’
    Subject; Radio NZ Labour/National finance debate.
    7/9/2017

    Grant;
    Congratulations Grant Robertson on your effort on morning report Radio NZ show today.

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/338857/watch-live-finance-debate-national-vs-labour

    Though we couldn’t hear all your responses (due to the voluminous over-bearing interjections of Steven Joyce), we all agree you was simply brilliant with your presentation.
    Keep it up please.

    Subject: BEST DEBATE BY LABOUR/NATIONAL ROBERSTON V’s – SS JOYCE -SINCE THE 2017 DEBATE BEGUN; A MUST WATCH.
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/338857/watch-live-finance-debate-national-vs-labour

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/338857/watch-live-finance-debate-national-vs-labour
    Radio New Zealand
    POLITICS ELECTION 2017
    22 minutes ago
    Watch LIVE: Finance Debate – National vs Labour
    22 minutes ago
    Share this

    Who will do the best job balancing the books? National’s Steven Joyce and Labour’s Grant Robertson join Morning Report in the Auckland studio to debate all the details.

    Mr Joyce doubled down this week on his attack on Labour’s alternative budget, despite a series of economists saying he was wrong.
    Ahead of the second leaders debate on Monday, he claimed Labour had mistakenly not accounted for rolling out operational allowances year on year – describing it as a “$11.7 billion black hole”. He later adjusted his attack, saying Labour had failed to leave room for increased spending in areas beyond health and education.

    The New Zealand Initiative – a libertarian think tank – said National appeared to have made a basic accounting error in its initial criticism.
    ANZ chief economist Cameron Bagrie also suggested Mr Joyce went too far in saying there was a “hole” and said that term was “too strong”.

    But he did say it would be a challenge for Labour to govern within its budget.
    Independent consultancy BERL, which Labour employed to check its books, stood by its work.

    Sent: Thursday, 7 September 2017 8:34 AM
    To: ‘morningreport@radionz.co.nz’
    Subject: FW: NOTE FOR MORNING REPORT – GUYON ESPINER KEEP STEVEN JOYCE UNDER CONTROL AS IN THIS MORING DEBATE BETWEN JOYCE & GRANT ROBINSON WE COULD NOT HEAR GRANT’S RESPONSE TO QUESTIONS FOR JOYCE OVER TALKINNG HIM. PLEASE CONTROL JOYCE.

    TO; Guyon Espiner;

    DEAR GUYON ESPINER, – MORNING REPORT. 7/9/17.

    A GOOD DEBATE WITH AN ISSUE OF COMPLAINT.

    THIS IS A NOTE FOR GUYON ESPINER.

    PLEASE KEEP STEVEN JOYCE UNDER CONTROL AS IN THIS MORING DEBATE BETWEN JOYCE & GRANT ROBINSON WE COULD NOT HEAR GRANT’S RESPONSE TO QUESTIONS FOR JOYCE OVER TALKING HIM. PLEASE CONTROL JOYCE.

  14. Paul Judge says:

    I don’t understand why that frightful Matthew Hooten has any credibility left whatsoever after being exposed for his role in Dirty Politics. It is shameful that RNZ and Mediaworks keep using him. He should be banished from the airwaves. This says more about the state of New Zealand than the bias of Paddy Gower or even Hosking in my view.

    • bert says:

      Yes, Hooten was introduced as a “political analyst”.

      Oh fuck off. T.V. 3 are telling porkies if they think Hooten is an analyst, as he is nothing of the sort!

    • Barry says:

      I think there is something basically wrong in the head with Matthew Hooten,he seems deeply unhappy and is a very negative person,I find him very depressing.

      • And yet, Matthew Hooton is one of the saner right-wing commentators who actually thinks through issues instead of parrotting repetitive cliches… (And I say that as no fan of the Right.)

  15. countryboy says:

    “Every woman in NZ knows the tone of that jeering laughter shown towards Jacinda, it’s the snide privilege of the self-serving male who laughs at everything that doesn’t immediately serve his interests.”

    Not only women must suffer the tactics of the wanker.
    I was once laughed at and jeered by an older, shiny, fat kid at a school dance.
    What I did in return was simple enough. When he turned his back with a gloat I kicked him directly up his anus. I remember literally feeling the point of my boot spearing his arsehole perfectly and with surgical precision.
    He let out a yelp like a stepped on pup while I flushed with the joy of it as I planned to run like Hell. He never chased me, instead disappearing into the car park to, no doubt, mummy and daddy waiting in the Merc’.
    I never saw him again although I did hear he’d become a respected heart surgeon.
    ( Imagine if he’d become a proctologist? Ha! )
    He has me to thank.
    If, by some remarkable stroke of serendipity, you’re reading this? Served you right. Fuck off.
    If someone were to introduce gower’s chipmunk arsehole to the point of a shoe? No harm done.

  16. mikesh says:

    The second leaders´ debate was first I heard about the 11 billion dollar
    ´hole´. Perhaps I hadn´t been keeping up with news, but I must admit it had me worried. I guess it would have had the same effect on a lot of other viewers.

  17. Nitrium Nitrium says:

    While I didn’t watch the debate (because Patrick Gower), I gathered from various media pundits that Jacinda probably won over more undecided voters than Bill. That sounds like a win to me. I guess all will be revealed in tonight’s poll.

  18. Red Buzzard says:

    re “Perhaps I hadn´t been keeping up with news…”….agreed…and you still aren’t keeping up with the news !

    …”11 billion dollar´hole´ “… has no substance whatsoever…another Nact porkie

    http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/election/2017/09/national-alleges-11b-hole-in-labour-s-budget.html

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/201857599/finance-debate-steven-joyce-grant-robertson

  19. Not A Robot says:

    All this excitement over a silly Puppet Show!

    These two individuals have both spent their entire lives in the service of Neo-Liberalism. Hell, JA even apprenticed under Tony Blair. They have both made careers out of upholding the “International Order”, as Obama recently described it in his parting letter to Donald Trump.

    Their job is not to serve the people. Their job is to maintain the present system. And they *will* do their jobs, as they have been trained to do, no matter which one is chosen.

    So, you can vote for Punch, or you can vote for Judy, but what you can’t do is you can’t *vote* to end the madness.

  20. CLEANGREEN says:

    TV one Coleman Brunton poll due at 6 pm on TV One so if Labour stalls it is because of the lies that Steven Joyce told about the $11 billion hole.

    Labour should take a court case about lack of ‘real debate policy’ rights given to all opposition parties leading up to this election because if their policies were made clear months before this election most of the lies and misrepresentations/confusions left for the voter will have been worked through leaving a seamless simple choice election for all voters by now.

    This case would be argued on ‘the public good interest’ case.

  21. kd says:

    I thought the audience was mostly laughing at Bill, assuming they found him as ridiculous, old and tired as I did. I totally thought Jacinda was the fresh, passionate, clear, calm, intelligent person on the stage. I am not a Labour supporter, but I found Jacinda to be inspiring! Bill sounded like an old, foolish, politician past his use by date. Everyone surely knows that TV3 is NOT a fair and balanced news show politically and therefore I totally expected Paddy, Lisa and Matt to be as annoying as I thought they were.

    • CLEANGREEN says:

      100% KD
      “I thought the audience was mostly laughing at Bill”,

      I felt that exactly the same way too.

      Yet Bill thought he was actually very funny!!!!

      And that shows he is simply a ‘deluded man’ and totally out of touch.

  22. Danyl Strype says:

    Funny, despite the booby traps that had been set for Jacinda, and the various free opportunities Bill was given for blatant self-promotion in the form of “questions”, I still feel like Jacinda came out of the debate looking like a PM in waiting, while Bill looked like an experienced loser doing exactly what his party expected of him while they regroup.

  23. Danyl Strype says:

    Here’ what matters. Jacinda’s target for child poverty is 0, and said that Labour is has policy to address all the drivers of poverty; low wages, high under-employment and inadequate benefits, homelessness, over-expensive education and healthcare etc. Bill is relying on tax cuts lifting parents explicatively low incomes just enough that their children no longer count as being officially poor, but is offering nothing to actually address the real issues that face their families. Labour wants to start refunding the wrap-around public services National has been defunding for 9 years. National wants to leave it to “the economy” and the “free market” and “trickle down” to magically fix the problem, even though this clearly hasn’t worked in the past 9 years, or the past 30. Time for a totally new public policy framework that isn’t based on the assumption that feeding business magically gets families housed and fed.

  24. JustMe says:

    Once he achieved his strived for goal of being addressed as Prime Minister and all the accolades and perks of the job that go with it one of the worse things John Key resorted to was a witch-hunt in the mainstream NZ media. That is he weeded out those more intelligent journalists eg John Campbell etc; who openly criticised and questioned the National government.
    Key is on record as saying he wanted Campbell(John Campbell)out of TV3(and Mediaworks). Key never felt comfortable with a questioning journalist as that showed him up. And so instead he over-satuated such media tabloids as the NZ Herald and later the NZ Woman’s Weekly/Weakly with biased towards National journalists.
    And so what we now have within 3 weeks of the next NZ general election is a selection of journalists presenting political debates who are quite obviously biased towards National. What we will be seeing is more air-time given to National MPs than Labour MPs during these so-called ‘debates’.
    National want to paint themselves as being as pure as the driven snow. The ongoing and permanent problem in regards to Bill English is whilst he will say that Labour views NZers as a ATM the fact of the matter is Bill English Double Dipped until he was caught out in 2010 and therefore he too viewed the NZ taxpayers as ATMs to fund his finances and greed for more money. That is one issue that sticks in my memory and as a result I would never ever in my life-time vote for a National MP.
    To this day I often think that if Bill English had not been caught out double dipping in 2010 would he still be doing it to this day???!!!! It’s highly likely that yes he would still be double dipping. His approach would be ‘best to keep NZ taxpayers(and voters)in the dark as to how much of THEIR(NZ taxpayers)money goes into MY personal bank account(s).
    Between now and election day we will be subjected to various ‘experts’ galore who are mostly National Party supporters giving reason in various articles through-out the NZ media as to why Jacinda is not worth voting for. But bare in mind the likes of Richard Prebble are what we call Waka Hoppers. They jumped ship when it suited them financially to side with another political party other than Labour.
    Lets face it but perhaps for most politicians ego and vanity are the deciding factors.

  25. Terence says:

    Lets all be real here – we’ve been put on speed for the last few years… and the comedown effect isn’t snappy. We’re not happy. We’re kiwis who have always strived in doing things right, doing things in the time it takes and above all staying genuine in our cultural humanity – We can’t cope right now and grown too fast for our nature to handle it. What ever is the end result here, I think we all know…. it will be in respect of balance. No one wants another country lost in madness.