Why do we tolerate Gloriavale and Brian Tamaki?

55 Comments

1. I think the tipping point is when they dictate what clothes women wear.

   1. It’s probably education.

   2. How about treating women as “unclean” at certain times of the month. That’s ridiculous.

      1. It’s not difficult providing a better lifestyle to that which Gloriavail provides. I mean where’s the passion. Where’s the conviction. I really love New Zealand convincing these Muppet of another way shouldn’t be this fucken hard.

      2. Gloriavale have their religious leaders doing panty checks like the Chassids? Hadn’t heard of that one.

         1. Ridiculous isn’t it Mo. Best keep an eye on them in lest they start doing the virginity checks beloved by Mohammedans.

            1. Wait until Mo hears about the Taliban he’s going to be outraged . .

            2. You mean the government of Afghanistan, that overthrew the collaborators who were raping little kids under the guise of ‘bacha bazi’ while the NZDF did nothing about it?

            3. Not going to bother commenting on your defence of the Taliban as there is really no need – your defence of them in the first place speaks volumes.

            4. Of course you won’t, James. Did you rape little Afghan boys yourself?

2. Martyn I don’t agree that giving tax exemption status for believers of said sky wizard should be tolerated. Believe what you want but the likes of Sanitarium and the Brethren’s running tax free businesses is outrageous

   1. Wheel agree with you on this point re taxes .
      It gives the businesses an unfair advantage. We should also tax Maori businesses like Ngi Tahu.

      1. You’ve wandered a bit off-topic there Trevor, but would you like to explain clearly where “businesses like Ngi Tahu” don’t pay tax? Some credible sources would be good.

         1. If you Google does Ngai Tahu pay tax and you will get the answer ,They are looked on as a charity but that charity runs tourist ventures bus companies and have a large property portfolio. it is great that they are making money for their tribe and they do distribute it but it does give them an advantage .

      2. Of course the colonialist state will want to tax our charitable trust organisations as they go about providing our people with the necessities of life from whatever resources remain with us after two centuries of state confiscations. The colonialists will justify this by saying that Maori trusts should not be given a financial advantage over colonialist corporations. However, this is to ignore the fact that the purpose of our trusts is to serve the needs of ordinary people while the purpose of colonialist corporations is to savagely exploit them in the interests of global capital. If the colonialist state starts to tax Maori trusts it will simply be adding another layer of exploitation and finding a new avenue for confiscation. Well, e hoa ma, bring it on.

      3. And Google, Facebook, Apple, Goldman Sachs, ExxonMobil etc etc etc Trevor.

         1. That’s misleading Charles. Those entities are not exempted taxation purely because of what they are, Exxon isn’t tax free because it’s an oil company, Accountancy firms aren’t tax free just because they do accountancy etc.
            Sure, they pay less tax than they should, but for reasons involving a myriad of other faults in the system.
            In contrast, religious groups can enjoy tax free status simply by claiming to be a religion.

            1. How can it be misleading when those are the facts Richard…

               https://insights.nzherald.co.nz/article/nz-multinational-tax-gap/

            2. It’s misleading in context of juxtaposing it with tax free status of churches and religion. The fault is as much Trevor’s for first bringing it up, but you bought into it and took it further..

            3. But it’s still true Richard, it doesn’t make it wrong .
               Thank you for highlighting that

         2. “But it’s still true Richard,”

            Yes, Charles, it’s true, I never said that it wasn’t, only that it was misleading.

   2. Many people get a tax reduction for their contribution to registered charities as well, there are many unfair things about our tax system & if everyone actually believed what the SDA version of Christianity is supposed to teach we would be crime-free, healthy, with no enemies so that would produce a substantial reduction in the cost of government. Obviously, that is never going to happen & as Martyn has already said the freedom to choose what we believe is essential otherwise we are not really free.
      I am disgusted by what has been happening in Gloriavale & do not see any need for it however my greatest fear is that a rapid closure will only result in unscrupulous employers taking advantage of the people from there so any action taken needs to ensure that the innocent members are protected.

   3. Couldn’t agree more. I won’t buy their products. Business pretending to be religious charities eeds a government with some guts to stop their bludging on hard working kiwis.

   4. Top comment Wheel
      The Exclusive Brethens are a borderline cult. Won’t associate with the ‘heathen’, but happily employ them to do the ‘worldly work’. And the have their own supermarket ‘campus and co’

      1. I worked with a young girl who was a member of the Brethren, Really nice young lady, heart of gold. Unfortunately her family pulled her back in. Married her with a young bloke down south and packed her off down there.

3. Why are we not offered an objective assessment of Gloriavale as a minor social phenomenon? Why no reference to the failures of neo-liberal capitalism which inspire responses such as Gloriavale and Destiny Church?
   “We owe those who escape because we tolerate a system that abused them.”
   Yes, you do. You (I am talking about the Labour left here) tolerate the abusive capitalist system, you weaponize it with neo-liberalism, and then abuse those who attempt to escape into religious communities. You owe those who escape capitalism something more than an abusive rant, especially if it is a case of out of the frying pan and into the fire.
   Any crimes committed at or by Gloriavale can be punished under New Zealand law. The same should be true of any farm, business, school, church or political party in the country. Follow the rule of law without fear or favour. You should not tolerate the massively widespread and gross exploitation of migrant labour, which keeps the New Zealand capitalist economy running and “growing”, while punishing people who choose to voluntarily enter into non-money-based communities.
   Even Karl Marx had a more intelligent understanding of religion and its role in society.
   Gloriavale and Destiny Church are very small outliers which are symptoms of the collapse of values in New Zealand’s colonialist society, and they express many positive values along with certain practices or views that we may regard as abhorrent. The “whole of government” attack on Gloriavale is not a rule of law approach. It is a test run for a “whole of government” clampdown on other individuals and groups which depart from neo-liberal doctrines.

4. Certainly the various sky pilots should be allowed to operate–on condition of supporting appropriate labour and other rights, and paying tax like other citizens!

   Brethren and Jehovah’s have been taking the piss for years with their no vote stances, yet actively interfering in others democratic rights and election processes.

   I have little time for any religion because they relentlessly oppress women and indoctrinate children before they are mature enough to develop an independent world view.

5. Thee noxious influence of religious cults is one thing but economics is inhabited with cults. There is Classical, Neo-classical, monetarists, Austrians, Liberal, Neo-liberal, Keynesian, Neo-Keynesians, Post-Keynesians, etc. These cults are dangerous because they have an influence on Government policies.

6. What other organisations are allowed to sell and promote literature that calls for murdering women (witches), homosexuals, adulterers and apostates. What other organisations are allowed to justify slavery in their magical spell book by laying out the rules that govern it?

7. Soon you will wake up to the Muslim morning call to prayer in Wellington if the Green lunatic fringe get their way. They must have solved all the environmental and social problems.

   1. I actually like listening the call tp prayer, it’s about the only thing about Islam I genuinely like.

      Much more musically interesting than out of sync cathedral bells, about which, I have no doubt, you have never moaned about.

   2. I like your own fringe lunatic comments KCCO, keep those conspiracies coming.

8. If there is a some sort of major cataclysm (e.g. nuclear war, or solar flare), Gloriavale will ironically be one of the few communities that survives. While we’ll all be at each other’s throats, looting, burning and raping as civilisation collapses around us, Gloriavale will barely notice anything has changed.

   1. Of course. The Lord will protect them from a nuclear winter. What are you on?

9. Ideally Gloriavale should close, but the closure should be the result of the community deciding it should end.

   Rosanna Overcomer, who was one of the first to leave, thought it would be dangerous to close the community using outside force. To close it from the outside, she thought would rebound dangerously and prove the leaders right in their scaremongering.

   So, yes, it needs to close but the push to do so has to come from within.

10. The link https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/04/03/former-gloriavale-residents-consider-its-future/ shows that
    this document is an argument from “leavers” who remain Christian (“followers of the invisible flying wizard”) and who evidently still strongly relate to the Gloriavale community.
    They argue for “The freedom to choose to be part of the church at Gloriavale or another Christian church or no church at all while still living at Gloriavale.” In other words they are proposing that Gloriavale remain as a Christian community but ceases to be the property of a Christian sect. That sounds reasonable to me but it is the members of Gloriavale who must be convinced, not those of us who are outsiders. Many Gloriavale residents would argue that the community was founded on the donations of people who wanted a community with a defined theology, and that most, if not all, desire to keep a tight community with common adherence to strictly defined beliefs. They would fear that without a common belief the community would begin to break apart.
    The document argues “People should be allowed to marry who they want, earn and keep their own money .. and hold beliefs based on their own understanding and conscience of the Bible…” To me that means that members should be allowed to marry non-believers from outside the community, the communist principle derived from Acts 2:44-45 should be abandoned, and the only condition for membership should be possession of a Bible-based belief system. All of that means that Gloriavale would move at least halfway towards becoming a secular community. I personally don’t have a problem with that. After all I live in an unintentional secular community that respects freedom of religion (which the leavers might support, although there is some ambiguity around that) and adheres to communal principles (which the leavers might not support). However it is not for us or the leavers to say how Gloriavale should evolve. Obviously the leavers retain a sentimental attachment to the place and the people they have left, but left they have. It is those remaining who must decide the future of Gloriavale. Not the leavers, not some branch of the state, and not the writers of The Daily Blog.

    1. “The freedom to choose to be part of the church at Gloriavale or another Christian church or no church at all while still living at Gloriavale.”
       This would be analogous to Benedictine monks or Dominican nuns who no longer ‘believe’ and don’t want the rigours of the discipline, yet demand to continue living in the monastery because they like the scenery and the singing.

    2. You are a bit unfair claiming that the communist principle in Gloriavale is the same as in Acts 2:44-45, you only need to go back a verse to see that signs and wonders were happening and earlier 3000 people were baptized, what happened was a Holy Spirit movement which is completely different to Neville Cooper deciding that he should be telling people what to do. Apart from that the rest of your comment sounds fair.

       1. Acts 2:44: “All the believers were together and had everything in common”. That is why some believe that to be Christian one must be communist – not of the Marxist ilk, but as of those filled with and directed by the Holy Spirit. Nev Cooper argued that Gloriavale was communist because it was spirit-filled, and that Christian churches which are not communist cannot be spirit-filled. I think he had a point there, even if he was wrong about other things and even if his own actions and attitudes fell short of the Christian ideal. Communism is a defining feature of spirit-filled Christianity, and it is equally true that communism can only be sustained through the flourishing of the Holy Spirit, in the absence of which it rapidly descends into tyranny.

       2. No atheist and few Christians really understand the creation story in Genesis. (This is following a topic in a previous thread now closed). The fundamental error is to suppose that the first three chapters of Genesis are purely concerned with the material world, rather than human consciousness. Thus the mistaken apprehensions that the story of Cain and Abel is about “the first murder” (it is really about the violation of the proper relationship between the temporal and spiritual sides of our nature and by extension between church and state), that the “fall” was occasioned by “sin” (it is really about human acquisition of the ability to distinguish good from evil, and the consequent acquisitions of self-awareness, empathy and moral understanding which are the necessary conditions for us to live in the mass societies which we have created beyond the garden) and that the creation itself was about the formation and awakening of human consciousness (that is why the “light” and “day and night” precede the creation of the heavenly bodies that are the source of light in materialist cosmology). So despite the repeated incredulous refrain from one quarter of “the magical invisible flying wizard” there is nothing fatuous about the book of Genesis or the other books of the Bible. While they may be written in the ancient style of metaphor, allegory and parable they are deeply philosophical works which bring us to a true knowledge of our Creator – if we want to go there.

11. Oddly enough, we also tolerate Islam which also notably stops young women from even being seen let alone learning and becoming educated so that they effectively remain in domestic servitude

    I’ll accept that this isn’t the case everywhere but it is in those parts of the world where Islam is the dominant religion and much of the midlands.

12. Destiny Church owes its existence to Rogernomics and Ruthenasia as much as it does the Tamakis.

    1. That is at least partially correct. Destiny Church is also a response to the social havoc wreaked by two centuries of colonialist distribution of alcohol, tobacco and other drugs, and the violence, nihilism and hopelessness that the narco-colonialist state has induced in New Zealand society.

13. One church has more brown people the other more white people and I don’t think Brian is touching anyone other than his missus whereas the Brethens are like pedos hence the name exclusive.

    1. He touches their wallet

14. Actually, Millsy makes a good point. Tamaki is an ACToholic. He backs the Treaty Principles Bill, his brothers are Tainui entrepreneurs and his prosperity gospel ideology trashes the centre-left social gospel theology that supported the emergence of the comprehensive welfare state, public health and education back in the thirties. One of the reasons Tamaki is currently going apeshit is possibly due to the decline of his sect and impliedly, the erosion of his bank balance from his rackrent titheing of his poor parishioners. Decline? Well, yeah. Currently, according to his website, the sect has branches in Auckland, Wellington, Hamilton, Whakatane, Whangarei, Christchurch, Nelson, the Gold Coast, Gisborne, Rotorua and Tauranga- but it closed branches in Porirua, Whanganui and Dunedin and either merged or closed others in Kaitaia, Opotiki, Taumauranui and Hawkes Bay. He doesn’t have a clue about concrete political strategy, as evidenced by the failure of his four puppet microparties and his frequent “prophetic” delusions. Eventually, gravity is going to assert itself with that crowd…

15. Tax churches, tax cgt asap. Tax ngai tahu. Tax weetbix
    Sick of freeloaders.

16. I have no problem tolerating other people’s religious beliefs – as long as they are not sacrificing virgins at the new moon or whatever. The problem arises when they want to impose those beliefs on everyone else. Then we run into the paradox of tolerance – we tolerate someone whose aim it is to end toleration.
    I have absolutely no tolerance for their tax-free status however. If it’s because they engage in charitable works, then they should file a tax return that explains exactly how much of their income goes to charitable works, and the rest should be taxed. In the US there is an agreement – formal or informal I don’t know – that as long as churches stay out of politics they maintain their tax-free status. In that situation Tamaki would theoretically lose his, except that when I tried to find out once how many churches had lost their tax-free status over the years, you can pretty much count them on half the fingers of one hand.
    What kisses me off horribly though is that Bishop Tamaki and his little friends seem to think they should get away with breaking the law. Painting over pedestrian crossings puts people’s life at risk. At the very least they should be fined, I think they should be forced to repaint the crossing, and if they refuse, let’s make martyrs of them and put the bastards in jail.

17. True. To be more specific, vandalising pedestrian crossings is in violation of Section 11 of the Summary Offences Act 1981. If it involves serious damage to property or endangerment of life, then Section 269 of the Crimes Act 1961 kicks in. Ah. I see one of the folks who vandalised the Karangahape Road crossing was in fact the Bi$hop of Bling’s grandson in law (he’s married to Brian’s eldest granddaughter).

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