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  1. All very well but the He Puapua agenda is, and has been, proceeding regardless of the so called declaration.
    It’s all a bit academic anyway, co-governance won’t survive the election. There’s nothing Willie, Nanaia and the ethno-nationalists can do about that apart from help cause an even more embarrassing defeat.

  2. I find it hard to get my head around the twisted logic that supports ANYTHING that is race-based.

    So, for this attempt at neo-Apartheid to be the product of New Zealand, the first country in the world to have a universal franchise is doubly shameful.

    Is Labour mad, bad or both?

    1. Of course, Andrew it would be hard cause you come from a long line of peasants who escaped the mother land and raped murdered and pillaged. This country was founded on race-based policy implemented the colonialist who couldn’t win the war so pulled out the pen.

          1. Andrew. He is a she, an angry she, but Kelvin is a he, insofar as one knows, and not a she like the above proper noun when it comes to pronouns. Got it ?

  3. Here here BG.

    Also “[Jackson] simply can’t escape the fact that to meet the requirements of UNDRIP – let alone te Tiriti – the Crown will have to cede an unacceptably large amount of its sovereign power to Māori”. No comment on the UNDRIP, except to say we don’t worry about implementing almost any treaties so the foucs is political and the legal emphasis a political device.

    But as to the treaty/te triti, this assumption on sovereignty is at the base of the “Maori ethno-nationalist” position. Of course, the whole point is that they do not state a fact, real or political. They merely make an assumption and don’t even bother to argue for it anymore.

    If they did argue for it, they would have to contend with the many texts – two original and many later translations – between them all taking different positions on sovereignty. The meaning of texts can be derived by context they might say – but of course context of the deal struck in 1840 is also contested by historians, trained and otherwise. They would have to contend with the fact that the contest all through our history so fully obstructed worthy attempts to make real amends for real wrongs – that there was the necessity to invent of the “principles” as a legislated device almost 50 years ago. Then they would have to contend with the historical fact in the living memory of many that the “tino rangatiratanga” related-elements of the principles have always been contested. That at least Palmer, Bolger, and Clark are on the record – on top of Court decisions and WT gloss of course – saying the principles mean different things. That the sovereignty idea – underlying the partnership idea – is plainly is contested today by their colleague Seymour, former colleague Winston, and many others. That, of course, in real and political reality – sovereignty is with the Crown. It has been nationwide since about the 1880s in the physical world – times when ultimately only His Majesty’s govt could deny one personal sovereignty in the ultimate form of prison bars.

    We have to be honest that our dear old founding document is an insufficient foundation for a state, and build a new compact, whether we write it down or not. That will contain different locii of different powers, just as we have now – legislature, executive and judiciary. It might also new loci – perhaps some “by maori, for maori” ones – replicating similar functions for small areas. Just like devolved or federal structures do. It might also have loci with novel roles nationally.

    But we all know one thing it can’t have – we can’t share a polity if we have two locii of sovereignty. Stoking the hope that we can achieve two locii of sovereignty – as Ruru and others seem to, and as they well know – is reckless at best for our common future on these islands, and an insult to all those of us who meet in the bonds of love.

  4. Nz has to decide if it wants to be one nation, or divided nation in the future. Life is not fair, some have lost and some gained..look at queens diamonds often stolen or tricked out of countries, we can live in the past and cry over spilled milk or move on and create a beautiful future for ourselves and family.

    I strongly believe that the weak in the society should be helped to become strong, whether its Maori, Pacifica or other ethnic groups, however trying to divide the sovereign power will destroy this nation. Who will have the final say?

    Divided nations create divided people. NZ needs to become 1. We can compensate for some past grievances, by making sure that people of Maori descent are not left behind and become part of prosperous future, but it will never be enough for Maori, and non maori will one day start feeling being ripped off( and some already are).

    Pakeha can only throw money to support Maori, and free money will only go so far.

    Maori have lived their lives pitying themselves and with victimhood mentality that only hinders their progress.Only Maori can inspire and support other maori, who are living as victims and are currently left behind.

    Maori have to help their own people in becoming strong, by ensuring that they value education, value own health, value strong work ethic and pass it on to their future generations. Many immigrants come to this country with these values only, and make rich lives for themselves.

    Only then will Maori as a whole will progress. Trying to divide the nation in order to lift the Maori, will break this country and create apartheid.

    1. Benny you make a good arguement about how NZ is in danger of being divided along race lines and how it can be fixed.
      A native American once said my people will not go forward if they continually look back. It is true that Maori are represented in all the wrong statistics but why do they need a seperate authority such as the stop smoking programme when the message is the same for both Maori and Pakeha. .They could spend more on the message and less on the messangers if the programme was not divided and many parts duplicated.

    2. Even if you are Maori you should not be giving such wide negative generalisations that don’t reflect well on Maori. It is as bad as going to extreme the other way.
      One of NZs and perhaps the world’s problems is the pendulum approach. Change is overwhelming checks and balances and the pendulum swings too far up, and a while after too far down. Muldoon’s tweaking though he had major faults, was probably about right, pretty much.

      So I question this from Benny and bold an egregious emotionally stressed word as an example of how personal opinion can muddy good explanations , understandings and learnings that need fair presentation.
      Maori have lived their lives pityingthemselves and with victimhood mentality that only hinders their progress.Only Maori can inspire and support other maori, who are living as victims and are currently left behind.

      Maori have had a lot of knock-backs and could probably verify examples of other assertions in that paragraph, but not only Maori can inspire other Maori; Celia Lashlie was doing well, and there are others who have trimmed down their western or other-cultured ideas to respond to what Maori culture and tikanga and knowledge bases have to offer. At present I have in mind to get a link to an internet site that offers Maori quotes and proverbs and explanations of the wisdom or foolishness they are highlighting.

  5. Thank you very much, Chris, for putting this whole mess out for examination – I have been waiting forever for someone to do more than just allude to it. Since it seems that this whole absurd arm-wrestling has been going on, under the surface for decades, it would seem to be sensible to bring it out and argue it, a bit rationally and probably more, emotionally. A lot of people who should have known better have had a hand in getting us to this sorry state – probably with the best of intentions – but we all know where those lead (old pakeha proverb)
    As it stands there are daft – and naive and truly ignorant – people pinning all their hopes on ‘kai in the sky’. There is no way this country is going to be governed by power/ governance -being shared between two ethnic authorities – the objections being too outstanding and numerous to state. Most people have just got more sense – and more important things to worry about.

  6. How predictable.
    We already live in an ethno state if you want to use that racist label.
    Its called New Zealand. Named by Dutch, colonised by British, and now largely owned by Australia, UK and the US. I leave out China because that is a red herring.
    In other words an ethnically European ‘white’ state.
    But the state is not society. It rules on behalf of the predominantly white ruling class. The rest of society, workers, farmers, self-employed etc are an ethnically mixed population and predominantly those who work for a living.
    But at the bottom of that society of those who work are Maori, the first Pacific people to settle Aotearoa, and other Pacific people who arrived much later.
    Maori were a people without class colonised by Europeans.
    Like all colonised peoples societies, Maori lost most of their land and had to work for white employers to survive.
    The consequences of that colonisation, racism and inequality, are still with us. Do we need to go through all the figures; the evidence of a widening wealth gap between between Europeans and Maori, of social breakdown and crime?
    It’s obvious that Labour, much less National and Act, does not want a revolution to resolve this widening wealth gap, but there are the Principles of the Treaty hanging over them demanding some redress for Maori.
    This Govt will do what it thinks is expedient to meet the UN resolution that is found acceptable to the centre right and left in order to get re-elected.
    Expect to see the various organisations with a stake in this outcome agree to some modest change to honour the Treaty deemed possible in an uncertain period of economic crash, war and ecological disruption.
    The revolution will have to wait until the majority at the bottom of society become so angry with all the institutions of the colonial state making them victims of economic crash, pandemics and climate catastrophe, that the need for it will at last be put on the agenda.

    1. Agree – predictable, that people don’t think clearly
      1. The ‘state’ at present has a greater proportion of non- European MPs and Ministers.
      2. At the bottom of society are people who don’t go to school or train for a job, and who use meth.
      3. Maori were a hugely class- conscious society – the Rangatira class, the warriors and the slaves.
      4. Te tiriti has no ‘principles’
      -and more.
      You might be right about the revolution though.

  7. Ages, your cut,me sayin,these dinasaurs,in this trades hall building cuboards,you listen to this,as my business class,weekly say.Now as past,never show,truth and socialist care.

  8. Chris has been fear mongering over He Puapua for a couple of years. The general line seemingly being “don’t give those Mowreees too much, the Tauiwi/Pākehā sods that are sitting on their land won’t like it”.

    Yes it could easily be elevated to a pinch point, and a ‘backlash’ scenario for the 2023 Election. But so what? Things surely cannot get much worse for many Māori people whatever Govt. is in. Various factors mean that Māori working class people contribute to the National Superannuation Fund which a number of them will never benefit from personally. Hello…it is called enduring post colonial fallout. Successive NZ Govt.s have not addressed Māori issues comprehensively which is why Te Tiriti enforcement and the UN are vital.

    Time to stop flogging this deceased horse. Even Nat Chris Finlayson says he does not fear co-goverance, and says neither should others after ten odd years working the Treaty round. As boomer numbers decline, new gens with a more modern world view will outnumber the sheep shaggers for whom fear is a factor.

    1. Co-governance. Now we cannot agree amongst each other in the same group with similar faces, or backgrounds, social standing, limited principles – the Parties, National and Labour
      particularly. Why is everything going to be ironed out if there is co-gov? Nothing is that easy. Possibly aiming for consensus? Which method seems to raise questions as to timely effectiveness.

      Consensus is a group discussion where everyone’s opinions are heard and understood, and a solution is created that respects those opinions. Consensus is not what everyone agrees to, nor is it the preference of the majority. Consensus results in the best solution that the group can achieve at the time.
      Wikipedia:What is consensus?

      More decision making methods and processes:
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Consensus
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johari_window

      I was interested in this from Denny Poa on TDB Open Mike about how the wiles of one group may another, the same but different.
      https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2022/10/22/the-daily-blog-open-mic-22nd-october-2022/#comment-687244

    2. Tiger Mountain: “Chris has been fear mongering over He Puapua for a couple of years.”

      It looks as if you’ve not read it, Matike Mai, or the Treaty. I recommend that you do. What the first two papers advocate is a wholesale dismantling of the representative democracy we now have.

      With regard to the Treaty, I can read it in both languages. What you see is what you get: there is no mention of principles, partnership or co-governance. Nor would there have been in that political environment. This was a Treaty being concluded in the name of the Queen of England. She would not have contemplated any such thing as partnership and so on, with her subjects.

      At the conference in Kohimarama, 20 or so years later, the chiefs who’d signed the Treaty made it clear that they understood full well the implications of what they’d signed.

  9. It is deeply concerning how offensively racist so many Daily Blog readers have become.

    1. It is Jane. They have slipped their collars from kiwiblog or something–one sentence troll merchants. A number of older (as in previous) posters have noticeably dropped out in the last year from The Daily Blog.

      In Pundit land there is chumminess with other pundits across political lines, because people associate with each other in various ways I guess, which now seems to have extended to a free shot for filthy views on TDB in the guise of “free speech”. Be nice to have a management statement on this. I mean the “eat each other” comment above–in 2022? really?

  10. 40 years ago,Martinbourgh,working decorating this serious old money mansion,lived round down the road,lunch we are having lunch,come and join,cause my trades skill back then was then scarce in rural then N.Z. SO polite talk in a area of rural desolation, how long have you been a trades man, ten years,then that how I planted those pine trees you drove back,twenty years later will have a valued wood crop,though Pine straight ten years will give our farm value.

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