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  1. Realistically most people have no choice but to go into the kinds of employment contracts that promote second class citizens so ate one below renters because the wage earns isn’t enough to pay the rent which is clearly unfair design work. Its bad and unreasonable that most people because of luck and the conditions they’re born into but mostly unfair because of luck of genetics and stuff. But some people are so lucky that they don’t have to work while most people have to work to survive and get this big share extracted to service those other people.

    So before we think about cutting out the capitalist and distributing all wealth among the workers I think we should ask well what share does health and education and welfare and defence get and production ect…, so after we do the taxes to pay for the schools and hospitals and so on and then sure we would have something to distribute to those who can’t work. So I guess as automation takes hold people can vote themselves shorter and shorter hours while being compensated through the tax system or we could have a retirement system that can take care of new borns and the elderly through the hard work of every one else.

    But notice that there is no incoherence where it could be said that you are taking from some one else to give to people who can’t work because the other person is morally in titled to. It might be wrong because we’ve selected the wrong design team or some one might get hurt or is hurt or doing policy in a vigilante way that could lead to a lot of avoidable chaos and violence. So yeah, it could be this big take over where the workers kick out all the land owners and factory owners or it could be this big orderly thing that is apart of a plan that will work in this big structural way.

  2. Capital gain is not rent Dave. The two carry on side by side. And if you want to have a “rent” paid by farmers and property owners to the rest of society well you have it and always have had. It’s called rates.
    Wealth is in the land or property. The illusion of wealth is the arbitrarily created medium of exchange that for commercial convenience it can be exchanged for should the owner wish to reinvest his / her wealth in some other enterprise.
    The medium of exchange we use is called money, and from time to time it’s volume sloshing about in the economy gets completely out of synch with the things of real value as it is an arbitrary construct the issue of which under the control of people who gain from it’s creation and issue to the community and don’t actually have control of it.Nobody does once it has been created. So money can quickly become massively oversupplied as it is in Venezuela at the moment ( imagine paying a capital gains tax on a farm in Venezuela just now) or undersupplied in areas of the economy that don’t currently look attractive to those who have the power to create it.
    So a CGT is removing part of the real accumulated wealth on which tax has already been paid , not to mention in most cases an at least equal amount in interest. It is a tax on inflation . A tax on an illusion of increased wealth . An illusion created simply by the inadequacy of the people such as Michael Cullen to properly manage the monetary system.
    D J S

  3. David if you want to stay confused by neo-classical (bourgeois) economics that’s your choice. Prices are not determined by supply and demand but fluctuate around an average determined by labour value.

    Your last para shows you have not understood my argument about rent.

    Capital gains are correctly defined as gains that are not currently taxed.
    It is the ‘value’ that accrues to capital assets that do not reflect any reward for economic activity of the firm or home owner. It is ‘value’ that is stolen from nature and society by virtue of privately owning a monopoly of some scarce property, land is the main one, but IP is also important today.

    As someone who owns part of this scarce property you can make normal profits by living off your own and/or your workers labour (on which you theoretically pay income tax and interest to banks), but you can also make excess profits (monopoly rent) by selling commodities for more than your cost price (Marx calls that ‘price of production’ which incudes an estimated average profit) because your rivals do not have a monopoly shareholding.

    Good NZ examples are energy and transport that are paid for by general taxation but which are a social subsidy to monopolists. So the profits that are transferred from social production and nature to monopolists are ‘unearned’. Hence the concept of capital gains tax which returns part of that ‘rent’ to taxpayers.

    Neoclassical economics accepts that monopoly rent (or profit) distorts the market. But it conveniently turns a blind eye when that monopoly rent is what is keeping dying capitalism on the drip feed. Of course neoclassical economics does not accept that labour (plus nature’s inputs) produces value. Interestingly Smith and Ricardo did, but then invented justifications for a share of that value going to capitalists.

    My point is that the CGT is a diversion from much more important matters. Fixating on redistribution of tax when capitalism is crashing is stupid. That is why Greta Thunberg and her generation are making a nonsense out of the puffed up bullshit that is neoclassical economics.

    There is no way that the market (now controlled by monopolists) will correct for climate change. Therefore the system that generates the market has to be destroyed and replaced by common ownership and collective production that returns us to living in harmony with nature.

    You may be interested in an article on the Development of Capitalism in NZ from the 1970s which created a Marxist framework for understanding the production and distribution of value in NZ from colonisation to today.

    https://situationsvacant.blog/2019/04/11/the-development-of-capitalism-in-new-zealand-towards-a-marxist-analysis/

    1. Thanks Dave; but I don’t want to retract any of my comment.
      Perhaps your definition of ” rent” rates some clarification. I suspect it is sum what different from the common concept.
      I notice that you and Marx, seem to regard any remuneration for the planning, market research and risk; and for innovation as illegitimate. Only labour seems in your view to add any value to the raw materials from which our consumer goods are made.
      Can you explain how, in your ideal Marxist world any new ideas or new products , or inventions come into society? Who decides what is to be grown or manufactured? How are these people chosen ? How is their authority established? How are they to be sanctioned when they make the wrong decisions? How is it established that they have made a good or bad decision.
      The decisions a modern society makes are extremely complex. I think life under a Marxist regime would be a lot simpler all right, but very boring.
      D J S

      1. Don’t take my word for what Marx said.

        You can easily google him on rent (earnings from land as represented by labour output). The labour output of the family farmer represents improved value for which the farmer receives income that is taxed. Any wage labour creates income which is taxed. What is not taxed is the ‘price’ of land at sale that is unearned as explained above (basically it transfers profits from monopolies at the expense of non-monoplies.)

        On innovation, competition between capitalists drives innovation because it reduces labour time (and hence wages) and produces cheaper commodities allowing the most competitive to grab a larger share of the market and more profits.

        Yes, Smith and Ricardo argued capitalists contribution to innovation justified a profit. Marx proved that innovation did not justify profits going capital, because it increased the rate of exploitation of labour (labour not capital productivity), which is the same as increasing the proportion of value produced by wages that goes to capital.

        Marx argues that capitalism in its competitive 19th century maturity was progressive mainly because of innovation. However as soon as monopoly firms start to dominate the market they suppress innovation (this is what it has in common with the Stalinist forms of so-called socialism). Thus the 20th century sees capitalism resort to monopoly profits (rent being one form) which ceases to be competitive and profitable. Hence is progressive character is replaced by overall stagnation and destruction of nature.

        The is why capitalism today is incapable of providing for the future of humanity. It can no longer organise innovation and development but has to survive by drawing down on natures and societies finite wealth with apocalyptic results.

      1. land can be taken by the state when required, and the state controls what can be done on and with it. Ownership would be little different except semantically if all tenure was long term lease. If “owners” are to be expected to dedicate their lives and resources to improvement of their land they have to have an incentive or who will bother. Improvements would become the prerogative of the owner (the state) and the occupier’s role would be purely extractive.
        The system we operate under has to accommodate human nature and I don’t think Marxism does that very well.
        D J S

        1. Henry George is not a Marxist.

          His rationale is worth reading, and is much wider than land tenure.

          Norman Kirk discussed the tenure of land in NZ seriously as a means of reforming our economy and many of the downsides of our present ponzi economic system.

          Housing and land is now an affordable dream for a growing sector of Kiwis. An industry has grown around land ownership, profiteering without production of labour. This costs us all deary as wealth is extracted through this unproductive wasteful activity. The environment has suffered drastically as well as NZ debt increases as a result.

          It is not necessary to own land to improve it but you would expect secure occupation of land would be needed.

          Community cohesion is a fundamental force in facing hardship and change which lies ahead and will not be avoided no matter what words are said.

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